Why Were There So Many Serial Killers in 1970s America?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Why Were There So Many Serial Killers in 1970s America?
Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: Katherine Townsend (podcaster, host of "Hell and Gone", "Murder Line", and "Red Collar")
Theme: The episode explores why the United States in the 1970s became infamous for a surge in serial killings, compares patterns to today, examines how law enforcement tactics and societal conditions shaped the landscape, and challenges public perceptions about serial killers then and now.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Defining "Serial Killer"

• Definition: "A serial killer is someone who kills three or more victims with a cooling off period, which differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's more than three victims, but it's all at once." (Katherine Townsend, 05:14)
• Changing Profile: Public image (lone white male predator) is outdated. About half of serial killers are not white, but bias and inattention led investigators to overlook many non-white victims and perpetrators (05:48).

2. Why So Many in the 1970s?

• Victim Pool and Opportunity:
  • Expansion of hitchhiking, sex work, and youthful independence created a "huge pool of victims...off the grid." (Katherine Townsend, 07:26)
  • Lack of DNA technology, poor police communication, and absence of national databases made it easier for killers to avoid capture.
  • Societal turmoil: PTSD among children of Vietnam veterans, lead exposure, declines in mental health resources (07:26).
  • "It was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to, if they felt like killing someone, get away with it." (Katherine Townsend, 08:34)
• Notable Names:
  • Examples include Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, Richard Ramirez (Night Stalker), Buono and Bianchi (Hillside Stranglers), Golden State Killer, Long Island Serial Killer (12:18).

3. Law Enforcement Limitations

• Fragmented Investigations: Before computers, investigations were siloed to individual police departments, making cross-state patterns and links difficult (09:44).
• Methods: Old-school "gumshoe" detective work — lots of interviewing and canvassing — substituted for forensic evidence (30:13).
• Exploited Gaps: Killers could "kill someone in one geographical area and then get away with it" thanks to poor integration (09:44).

4. The Role of Technology

• Pre-Cell Phones:
  • Victims could vanish without alarm: "No cell phones. No surveillance cameras. You could disappear for a few days and no one would hear from you." (Katherine Townsend, 14:41)
  • Missing persons not reported promptly; delays critical for investigations.
• Modern Advances:
  • DNA, surveillance, real-time tracking (Life360, Amber Alerts) make repeated victimization and evasion harder today (15:48).
  • "Today, killers are much more aware of technology and they know...DNA might get them months or years later." (11:07)

5. Victim Demographics & Policing Bias

• Marginalized Victims:
  • Racial minorities, LGBTQ individuals, sex workers, and young runaways were frequently targeted and overlooked by police (23:21).
  • "There's still quite a bit of victim blaming that goes on, in my opinion." (Katherine Townsend, 24:13)
  • Example: Police returned a 14-year-old boy, who didn't speak English and escaped from Jeffrey Dahmer, back to Dahmer—where the boy was killed (17:44).

6. Are There Fewer Serial Killers Now?

• Statistics and Skepticism:
  • Research claims active serial killers dropped from ~198 in the 1980s to 12 today, but Katherine disputes that's the true number—many go uncaught or are not categorized under the strict definition (03:53, 07:18, 38:01).
  • Homocide "clearance rates" (cases closed, but not necessarily resolved or perpetrators jailed) are only about 50-60% (38:21).
  • "You got a 50, 50 chance of getting away with murder in America based on where you are." (Katherine Townsend, 38:21)

7. Redefining Serial Killers & Gender

• Broader Definitions:
  • Many perpetrators don’t fit the "lone sexual predator" mold; financial motives or interpersonal violence can motivate serial killing.
  • "A lot of people out there may be technical serial killers who are not getting counted." (Katherine Townsend, 26:28)
• Female Serial Killers:
  • Female killers like Aileen Wuornos are rare and often sensationalized; women more often use "subtle" means, e.g., poisoning, which sometimes eludes detection (28:18).
  • Nurses and caregivers have historically killed multiple patients without being classed as serial killers (28:18).

8. Serial Killers Outside the U.S.

• International Occurrence:
  • Serial killers are not unique to America. Cases exist worldwide—Russia, Japan, the UK—but heavy surveillance (e.g., CCTV in the UK) reduces opportunity and leads to earlier apprehension (36:57).

9. Societal Fascination

• Media Obsession:
  • True crime fandom, movies, and podcasts continually stoke public interest.
  • Katherine notes, "the truth is they're not very interesting...most of the time they just got really lucky." (32:13)
  • Touched on the phenomenon of prison penpals and women developing relationships with imprisoned serial killers (33:10).

10. Personal Cases & Impact

• Katherine’s Work:
  • Describes investigating unsolved murders, contributing to a breakthrough in a 16-year-old Arkansas case by persistent fieldwork (35:26).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Opportunity for Violence (07:26):
  “For my money, it comes down to...opportunity really for me is about the victim pool. Back in the 70s and 80s, you had this huge pool of victims, mainly, I mean, a lot of hitchhikers and also had sex workers who were kind of off the grid...it was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to, if they felt like killing someone, get away with it.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Misconceptions in Race (05:48):
  “Only about 50% or so serial killers are white...there could be a lot more out there than people realize.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Policing Failures (17:44): “Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was 14 years old and didn't speak English and got away from him and ... the police actually brought the 14 year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's house and he ended up killing him. And that to me is incredibly tragic.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Modern Technology (15:48):
  “Now ... that's another thing. People use cell phones...if they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often, or you can track their location or something. [Before], you could disappear for a few days and no one would hear from you.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Law Enforcement Dismissal (24:13):
  “He made the comment, he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living, what did she expect? And I just was, I was actually stunned...I can't believe this is where we are in 2000, at the time, 2018.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Serial Killers Abroad (36:57):
  “I think serial killers are worldwide...Russia, Japan ... the UK certainly even today there are serial killers...fewer people become serial killers today because they're caught earlier.” — Katherine Townsend

• On Media Fascination (32:13):
  “The truth is they're not very interesting ... most of the time they just got really lucky.” — Katherine Townsend

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Definition of serial killer: 05:14
• Why the 1970s? / Opportunity and victim pool: 07:26–08:54
• Limitations of policing: 09:44–10:25
• Impact of lack of technology/missing persons: 14:15–16:40
• Victim blaming and police bias: 23:21–24:13
• Re-defining the serial killer profile: 26:28–27:24
• Female serial killers: 27:29–29:39
• How detectives worked cases in the 1970s: 30:13
• Serial killers worldwide: 36:57
• Are there fewer today? / Clearance rate issue: 38:01–39:32

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Conclusion

The episode challenges the myth of the "1970s serial killer spike" by dissecting how societal changes, gaps in law enforcement, and technology created fertile ground for killers who went undetected for years. Changes in forensic science, victim tracking, and public awareness have reduced opportunity, but Katherine Townsend warns that technical "serial killers" probably remain active—especially when marginalized victims are overlooked. The conversation underscores the real, ongoing threat and calls into question how we define and hunt serial killers today. The show closes with an open invitation for listener questions, underscoring American history’s ongoing mysteries.

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Transcript

[Katherine Townsend]

I think in 1987 there was something like 198 serial killers, and today there are supposedly only 12. But I don't know if that's true because I work a lot of cases and I've in the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed. So they're not being caught.

[Bob Crawford]

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[Bob Crawford]

Hey there, American History Hotliners. Bob Crawford here. Thrilled to be joining you again for another episode of American History Hotline. We love all your questions, so keep them coming and remember to send us a question. Record yourself with a voice memo or a a video on your phone and email it to AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com that's AmericanHistoryHotlinemail.com okay, now to today's question. It's a bit of a dark one. It's about serial killers. Here to help me answer the question is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts Helen Gone, Murderline and Red Collar. Hi, how are you?

[Katherine Townsend]

I'm great. I'm very excited to be here. Very excited to be here and very excited to talk about this.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, we're excited to speak with you about it. Okay, Katherine, here's the question we were hoping you could help us answer. It's from Dave in San Luis Obispo, California. He writes, why were there so many serial killers in the 70s and are there fewer today? Now, Kathryn, I imagine there are a lot of reasons for this, so let's just start with a definition. What is a serial killer?

[Katherine Townsend]

So technically, a serial killer is someone who kills three or more victims with a cooling off period, which differentiates it from something like a mass shooting where there's More than three victims, but it's, you know, all at once. That's the technical definition. And I can talk a little bit about why. I think that serial killers have been very pigeonholed since the 70s, in my opinion. But we can get into that later.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay, so then what are some of the traits you talked about? Three or more. Three or more murders and then a break, Right? Dig into that a little bit.

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, so in other words, I think that when. Okay, when we watch shows like Mindhunter and we talk about, you know, the FBI, criminal profilers, we think of serial killers as the traditional lone wolf white male killer who stalks and needs to kill. And, you know, these are people like Ted Bundy or Ed Gein. And I think that's what the public has thought of as a serial killer for a really long time. But what we're coming to find out is that a lot of that is actually not true. For example, only about. I was reading that only about 50, 50% or so serial killers are white. There are a lot of other minority groups represented there, but unfortunately, I think that people just weren't focusing on catching them or for other reasons, weren't really looking for these victims. You have things like the Atlanta Child Killer, and in that case, you have multiple African American victims, but no one was looking for these people for a long time. And so I. I think that there could be a lot more out there than people realize. Actually, the statistics tell us that something like. I think in 1987, there was something like 198 serial killers, and today there are supposedly only 12. But I don't know if that's true because I work a lot of cases, and I've in the past month have encountered at least two technical serial killers, but they weren't prosecuted for the murders that they committed, so they're not being caught.

[Bob Crawford]

So you're saying right now out there somewhere, there are at least 12 active serial killers?

[Katherine Townsend]

That's what the research says, yes. And when we talk about why there are fewer now than since the 70s, if in fact that's true, which is another question. I think there are a lot of reasons. I've seen everything from lead and lead pipes blamed to a lot of the serial killers coming up in the 70s and 80s were the children of Vietnam veterans. And those people experienced a lot of ptsd. There was less mental health in the home. You know, talk about mental health. So maybe these children were abused. There are a lot of theories. For my money, it comes down to. I do another podcast called Red Collar where it's all about white collar criminals who kill. And you talk about the triangle of fraud. Okay? You've got opportunity, pressure, rationalization. So pressure and rationalization are things that come from within. You can, you know, just like a serial killer, you can rationalize it. You have this emotional need to do it. The big thing that we can't control is opportunity. And opportunity really for me is about the victim pool. Back in the 70s and 80s, you had this huge pool of victims, mainly, I mean, a lot of hitchhikers. And you also had sex workers who were kind of off the grid. You still have that today. You had a lot less ability to DNA test. None of the law enforcement agencies talked to each other in the way they do now. So you have less cohesiveness there. And I think it was kind of this perfect storm that allowed these people to, if they felt like killing someone, get away with it.

[Bob Crawford]

A lot of people point to Ed Gein, right, as the first serial killer. But we know there have been. There were others before H.H. holmes, who gained notoriety through Erik Larson's book the Devil in the White City. Can we say who was the first, let's say, American serial killer? Because H.H. holmes was active around the time of Jack the Ripper in London, correct?

[Katherine Townsend]

Yes. So, I mean, honestly, I don't think we know about the first serial killer there was, and it might have been after HH Holmes, but it was. There was this guy, Albert Fish, who killed a lot of children and wasn't found until much later, But I think he's found.

[Bob Crawford]

What time period was he?

[Katherine Townsend]

You know, I can't exactly remember. I want to say the 1930s. That would have been later.

[Bob Crawford]

Okay.

[Katherine Townsend]

But I think of. That's kind of someone I think of as being an early serial killer. But I don't think we know about the first serial killers. I think they've been around a really long time doing bad things. But the problem is the technology to catch them didn't exist. And again, like, law enforcement agencies didn't talk to each other the way they did now. There was no national database for a long time before there were computers. Each individual police agency was researching things on paper. You know, I mean, and they would have to wait months and years to get results back. So I think that had a lot to do with it. It was much easier to kill someone in one geographical area and then get away with it.

[Bob Crawford]

So if we're trying to figure out what creates a critical mass of serial killers in one decade or in one time period, we talk about the scars of war and those coming home and children being emotionally neglected and abused. And then they grow up and they become serial killers. H.H. holmes or maybe lead poisoning. Maybe H.H. holmes was the victim of lead poisoning. But if we see these serial killers in different decades, maybe what makes a serial killer isn't time sensitive. Right. Isn't to one error. Maybe it's a human flaw.

[Katherine Townsend]

I think it is. And I also think that it's a big question is, you know, look, these are not completely. These people are asking themselves, what's my chances of getting caught? Will I get away with this? And we see this over all types of crime. And the fact is, during the 70s and 80s, they had a much better chance of getting away with it than they do today. Also, we haven't even talked about things like DNA technology and the ability to catch people months and years later. The fact of the matter is, if you killed somebody in the 70s and 80s, especially if it was a victim, sadly, a lot of these people who were targeted were sex workers. No one was looking for these people. So if, you know, they would have a really good chance of getting away with it. I mean, the crime clearance rate today actually is only about 50 to 60%. And that's not even counting all the people who are out there missing. So I do think that. But I do think that in general today, killers are much more aware of technology and they know that they will probably not get away with it and they might get caught and DNA might get them months or years later.

[Bob Crawford]

Let's jump to the 60s and 70s.

[Katherine Townsend]

Okay. Okay.

[Bob Crawford]

Who were some of the serial killers who were active at this time?

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, you had Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker. You had Ted Bundy. You had Buono and Bianchi, the Hillside Stranglers. You had, I suppose during the same time, the Golden State Killer. I mean, there were lots of serial killers during that era. And then you also had. This was more recent, but you had the Long island serial killer on the East Coast. So these guys were. I mean, these guys got away with it for a long time and they were pretty brazen about picking women up. I think that's also the other factor that comes into this with when we talk about the victim pool, you're also Talking about the 60s and 70s, a time period when many more young women are going out into the workforce and going to hang out in groups or by themselves. And hitchhiking. Hitchhiking is a huge factor.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah. Talk about the automobile. Right. And that as a tool of stalking and a tool of killing.

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, I Mean, the hitchhiking trend was before my time. But whenever I talk to my parents or I talk to people who were around back then, they talk about how common it was to get a ride. I mean, people just thought nothing of hitching a ride, getting a ride somewhere. And if someone picked you up and took you somewhere you didn't want to go, there was no cell phone or GPS or anything like that. You literally disappeared, and you were just gone. And also compound that with the fact that a lot of these people, sometimes there were people who were free spirits and maybe they'd left home and so they weren't missed right away, which is another problem, because then you miss the critical 24 to 48 hours. Yeah, I mean, the automobile is like the perfect, perfect tool for a serial killer, really, because it lets people entice their victim in. And they have them in their environment, and then they can, you know, they have control of the situation. They can take them away from the primary location.

[Bob Crawford]

When you think about the late 60s and there were a lot of kids who were running away from home and going to San Francisco or, you know, free love and everything we think about with that era, it seems, and even the end of the 70s, like, you know, there was this lost generation, right? So it was really about opportunity and targets. It seemed. It seems like it would be a prime time.

[Katherine Townsend]

Oh, yeah. I mean, think about it. If you are. If you're sort of, you know, hippie, free love, going to a rock show or something like that, and then you disappear, you've got kind of again, like a perfect storm of events. First of all, people wouldn't necessarily be alarmed right away and start looking for you. There's no way to trace. You know, there's no cell phones. There's no surveillance cameras back then. I think people now in this generation have a hard time even imagining how free it was. You just. You could disappear for a few days and no one would hear from you. And that was not unusual. I feel like now also, that's another thing. People use cell phones. People are much more. Even if they are free spirits, they're in communication somehow, often, or you can track their location or something. I travel around all the time, all around the world. And my mom is always saying, you know, please just at least share your location with us. And I kind of laugh because when I was 16 years old, I lived in Paris. There was no way for my parents to find me. They would hear from me once a week when I called on a phone card. And I'm always thinking about how lucky I am. Anything could have happened to me, really. I mean, it just takes a lot longer. There was longer lags in communication.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah. And there are things now with, if you have kids, you have life360 and you have at your, the iPhone, you can set it up where, you know, where your child is at all times, or at least where their cell phone is at all times.

[Katherine Townsend]

Yeah, you know, where their device is, which is a whole other thing. But I agree, I think that, and I think also it's not only that parents have used it. I mean, I think teenagers, for the most part, a lot of people feel that it is a safety feature that they want for that reason. And yeah, we had nothing like that in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, that was just non existent. So it took much longer. And also, even things like Amber alerts are pretty recent. So there was no way of knowing someone was missing. And there was this whole, you have to wait 24 or 48 hours, which. Which is no longer true. But sadly, a lot of stuff got missed in those crucial time periods.

[Bob Crawford]

So the more you learn about some of these killers like John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer, you know, we're getting into the 80s and 90s now, the more you realize how sloppy they were.

[Katherine Townsend]

Oh yeah, these were not master criminals. They had luck and they had a lot of opportunity with their victim pool. Like, okay, Jeffrey Dahmer's a really good example because a lot of people who he encountered were leading double lives. Sadly, due to that time period, a lot of them were not, you know, out. They were not gay openly. And so that was also another opportunity. If they're not telling someone in their lives, the people closest to them, what's actually going on, then it becomes hard to investigate because then you've got to figure out that whole aspect. And again, no cell phones, no tracking devices. Yeah, they were very sloppy. I mean, he was leaving body parts in his kitchen. And it's just that whole thing is just so sad.

[Bob Crawford]

Are there examples that you can think of where the cops had these people in their, you know, basically in their clutches and let them go?

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, one of his victims was 14 years old and didn't. Didn't speak English and got away from him and was running naked through the streets and the police actually brought the 14 year old back to Jeffrey Dahmer's house and he ended up killing him. And that to me is incredibly tragic. I think there was a lot less also. I think in general there was just. Police saw it unfortunately as a sort of some sort of lover's spat that he wanted to get involved with. And they didn't protect this child, which is also tragic.

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[Bob Crawford]

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[Bob Crawford]

This is American History Hotline. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Today my guest is Katherine Townsend. She's the host of the podcasts Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. We're talking about why the 1970s was rife with. With serial killers. Remember? Send us your burning questions about American history to americanhistoryhotlinemail.com you can leave us a voice memo message. You can write us an email if you want. Make us a video. Just send it to americanhistoryhotlinemail.com now back to the show. Let's talk about the victims of these killers. You mentioned the poor young boy who, who the cops took back to Jeffrey Dahmer and then he killed him. And we talked about racial minorities, gay or sex workers. Talk about the police and the overlooking of the marginalized in the late 20th century.

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, the sad thing about the overlooking of marginalized people is that it's still happening today. I do think it's gotten better. There's more education. But it's something that I see. I cover 48 cases a year or something like that, and I see it all the time. I think that there are a few things going on. I think that sometimes, as with the Jeffrey Dahmer example, the police see a situation and just they don't want to get involved in some sort of subculture. Maybe they don't understand and so they Just won't get involved sometimes. Often with either, with both with sex workers, but also just with teenage girls who disappear. There's this attitude of, oh, well, you know, they were dating a bunch of different people and you know, maybe they'll come back. They treat it as if there's a lot of. There's still quite a bit of victim blaming that goes on, in my opinion.

[Bob Crawford]

That's what this sounds like to me. Yeah, like our whole conversation.

[Katherine Townsend]

I was working on a case where one of my first big cases and I literally had the investigator saying, we're Talking about a 22 year old college student who had been staying with her boyfriend and, but had been dating some other people, went missing. And he made the comment, he said, well, with the lifestyle she was living, what did she expect? And I just was, I was actually stunned because I just thought, I can't believe this is where we are in 2000 at the time, 2018. But it's, it still happens. And I feel like a lot of people are just not being looked for. But then from the other side, they're not being reported missing either right away. And that's a big problem for an investigation that does make things a lot harder in the police's defense. That makes things a lot harder.

[Bob Crawford]

I can't stop thinking about these active cases. Like here I thought we were gonna talk about the past and we have and we will. But you know, according to you, and speaking to you, it's like this is a very immediate threat. This is happening right now more than we think it is, more than we realize it is.

[Katherine Townsend]

Yeah, I think when I say that I'm talking about things like for using the example, the case I've been working on, you have an individual and maybe it doesn't fit into the stereotypical man who needs to kill and he's targeting women. What actually happens is some of these people just. Not that they necessarily need to kill, but they want what they want and they'll do it and they will absolutely kill someone if that person steps in the way of what they want. The example I'm talking about is a case where a man killed two people, was charged with murder, but then the police lost the DNA. So over a period of time, there was one victim, there was another victim years later, one was his landlord, one was someone else who he got into an argument with. Then he ended up breaking into a woman's apartment and beating and killing her, seriously injuring her boyfriend. And we think there might be a fourth person he's responsible for. So it's not what you'd think of as a traditional serial killer. He wasn't stalking and killing just female victims, but he's killed a lot of people. But he's not called a serial killer. So I just feel like there's a lot of people out there who may be technical serial killers who are not getting counted.

[Bob Crawford]

You're almost saying that we need to redefine what makes a serial killer.

[Katherine Townsend]

Right? Or just think of it. It can still be someone who's had three victims with a cooling off period. But I definitely think that, for example, also a lot of the white collar cases I work on that then turns to murder. I think people kill people for a lot of reasons. It's not always the sexual sadist, rapist, predator. There was a really good example of that. I don't know if you ever saw the Netflix series the Serpent, but it was really good. It was about a serial killer who was back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, living in Nepal and all these different places. And he very much capitalized on the free love vibe that was going on during that time. And he was able to kind of scam people. But then when they would find out about his scams, he really just wanted to steal money. But he killed a lot of them. He had a lot of victims. So I think there are a lot of people like that floating around out there, sadly.

[Bob Crawford]

How many women serial killers have you come across?

[Katherine Townsend]

Come across? I mean, I've never really interviewed a female serial killer. Well, maybe one.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, wait, have you interviewed a serial killer?

[Katherine Townsend]

No, no, I was thinking about someone who's had a couple victims, but technically she's not a serial killer. I've interviewed fe. I mean, I've definitely interviewed female killers. And I was thinking of one because I believe that she. I believe she might actually be a serial killer, but I can't prove it. I think that women, traditionally most female serial killers are not like Aileen Wuornos. And I think that that case has been hugely publicized. She kind of killed. She killed her victims in more what you might think of as a male fashion. I'm not trying to be sexist, but just saying, you know, she used a weapon. They were kind of violent.

[Bob Crawford]

Most people just give us some context. If our listeners don't.

[Katherine Townsend]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, Just. Just a minute.

[Katherine Townsend]

So Aileen Wuornos was a female serial killer. She was the one who was portrayed in the movie Monster by Charlize Theron. She had several victims and she'd had this really tragic life. She had been sexually assaulted and raped by men in her own family. She became a sex worker. And in a way, a lot of people think of her as kind of a sympathetic character because she lured some men who were clients of hers into the car with her and then she murdered them. And it was usually pretty violent. She would shoot them. She would actually. She would kill them in ways that were thought of as more of a male way of killing. Because typically experts say that men are more violent and women are more kind of. I want to say this is going to sound wrong, but low key. Women do a lot more poisoning because, you know, and honestly, I think women get away with it more in my personal opinion, because they are pretty subtle about it. And we've had so many cases of female nurses who've killed multiple patients and things like that. And I've had several cases that I've reported on where a woman will kill several husbands. Or you have people like Belle Guinness who would lure her boarders in. She had a boarding house and then she would kill people and bury them in the yard. Again, that was more of a fraud case. She just wanted the money. But at some point she had to get rid of the bodies.

[Bob Crawford]

We did a past episode on Serial Poisoners. Yeah, that's so before all the age of CSI we live in now. Right. With all the forensic tools. Before that, in the 70s, how did police track a serial killer? Because you talked about that critical 48 hours being, you know, impossible. So how did these detectives and police, like eventually find their. The killers?

[Katherine Townsend]

Most of them did a lot of what I do because most of my cases never have. Very few have physical evidence we can see or use anyway. They did old school detective gumshoe, pounding the pavement, detective noir police work where they went out, they talked to people on the streets, they developed sources and they just kept following leads. And for example, I'm thinking of the Hillside Strangler case. They went and literally talked to all of these women. You know, they went into the community, they knew the community, they got their sources, and then that's how they got, you know, heard about rumors of these weird guys who were kind of out there. And then they just followed those leads. They had much less to work with.

[Bob Crawford]

Let's talk about some of the people who are serial killers, but kind of not serial killers. And you kind of already alluded to this. Like Charles Manson. He never actually killed anyone or did he?

[Katherine Townsend]

Right. I think of him more as a cult leader myself. I think of Charles Manson more as a cult leader. He certainly, I would say, you know, was responsible for those deaths and had a part in them. But you're right, he never actually did it. But then what do you call people who, for example, will hire someone, they'll hire a hitman? Well, they didn't actually do it, but they definitely masterminded it. I feel like he was masterminding it. So I guess it's the same kind of thing.

[Bob Crawford]

When I was in College in the 90s, early 90s, two guys I knew on spring break went to visit John Wayne Gacy in jail. What is it about the fascination that we all have for serial killers? I mean, because you have two podcasts, there are endless movies about serial killers, television shows, documentaries, books. True crime is so popular. What is it about the non killer's curiosity about the serial killer?

[Katherine Townsend]

I don't know. Since I was a child, I've read, I started out reading all the annual true crime books. I am fascinated by those things, but I sort of turn it on its head a little bit. I'm much more interested in the victims, how they survived, how they figured things out, how to solve the mystery, than I am in the killers. Because the truth is they're not very interesting. They're really not. They're superficially charming, maybe at best, but like you said, most of the time they just got really lucky. I mean, Joan Mangacy literally had a graveyard underneath his house. And he was actually very sloppy. He just happened to get lucky and that no one was maybe looking for those people or thought that he would have done it, and he just kind of got lucky. I don't know why people are so fascinated with him. I don't find them that interesting, to be totally honest.

[Bob Crawford]

Yeah, it was crazy that these guys did this. And I think he gave them some of his paintings.

[Katherine Townsend]

He gave them some paintings?

[Bob Crawford]

The clown paintings? Yeah, some paintings, yeah. It's crazy.

[Katherine Townsend]

Well, I do, but it's the same thing with, you know, it's not exactly the same, but with prison pen pals, I mean, I end up in my job writing a lot of people in prison because by necessity. But you know, I'm always amazed at how many women want to be in relationships with these guys. And I'm, I, I'm. That does kind of blow me away. I'll be honest.

[Bob Crawford]

What is it about? Like, you've spoken to some of these women, right? I mean, have you ever.

[Katherine Townsend]

The same reason people keep. Yeah, we actually have. I'm sorry to bring it back to my cases, but it is wild. We have one right now where when this guy, he's in his 40s. Now, when he was 17 years old, he killed his entire family. All right? And there's overwhelming evidence. I've seen the case file. He clearly did it. He threw a party. He killed his young sister, his stepfather and his mother covered the bodies up, threw a party, like had high school people over partying for a week. And I mean, it was pretty horrific. And then he's been in jail for a long time, but because in Arkansas the law changed and now he's eligible for release. He's going to get released. And this woman who keeps calling us is so convinced that he didn't do it. And I keep saying. Did you read the case file? At least read the case file. You have children, you know, Please read the case file. And she's just completely believes he's the best thing ever. Maybe it's not to be flippant, maybe it's the same thing when people want to raise wild animals or something. It's just this weird. It's this need to have a sort of dark, dramatic thing in your life that's sort of caged. Safely caged. Right. So you kind of get involved.

[Bob Crawford]

I can fix them, I can train them, I can heal them.

[Katherine Townsend]

And if not, they're behind bars, so they're telling you everything you want to hear anyway. Maybe it's that I truly don't understand. I was single for a long time wondering what I was doing wrong. Because, you know, every serial killer in prison I knew had a partner or multiple partners.

[Bob Crawford]

Even the serial killers are in love.

[Katherine Townsend]

Yeah, but I'm like, I can't get a date. I mean, this is, you know, and these guys are literally, I mean, they've got 10 or 15 women on the hook. What am I doing wrong?

[Bob Crawford]

Have you solved, like you talk about you and you say we like you have a staff and forgive me for not knowing all the details, but have you solved, I mean, have you convinced law enforcement that, you know, this person is a serial killer? Have you solved cases?

[Katherine Townsend]

It wasn't a serial killer, but yeah, we, we. Our first season of Hell and Gone involved the murder of a 22 year old girl in the Arkansas Ozarks who was a friend of my sister's. Long story short, we went in, we had absolutely no access to the case file. We went out and did all of our own investigating. And when I say we, it was a. It was a small staff, it was me, a couple of producers and. But I was mainly the one. And I was the one in the field all, you know, most of the Time for months at a time. Anyway, we ended up the original investigator on the case who told me to mind my own business and that investigations were grown up. Stuff got throat got, was removed from the case somehow. And after that a new investigator came in and the case was solved in nine months. This case was solved in nine months. And now there's someone in jail convicted for that. So now will the Arkansas State Police ever admit that we helped solve it? No. They'll tell you that after 16 years it was a coincidence. I know we did. I know we helped. And that makes me very proud. I don't care if we solved it or not. I just know that we helped and that's all I've ever wanted to do.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm sure it gave you inspiration to keep going and keep finding more of these. So we started out, and you've answered this a couple times during our conversation, but it's like, are serial killers an American thing or do we see them all? Because you mentioned someone in Nepal. Of course we know Jack the Ripper. Is it like gun violence? There's more of it in America, but it's not just exclusive to America.

[Katherine Townsend]

I think serial killers are worldwide. I've certainly seen examples. I'm just thinking about even things that I've read in the past few years. Russia, Japan. Although in Japan it is more rare. Again, just because it's so there's cameras everywhere. The UK certainly even today there are serial killers. I do think that fewer people become serial killers today because they're caught earlier. And I think the UK is a really good example of that because there have been a couple. Like, for example, there was one called the Camden Ripper who was killing and dismembering people. But I don't know that he was technically a serial killer because there's CCTV everywhere. When you go to the uk, it's wall to wall cctv. So usually they're able to, you know, apprehend people before they actually technically kill that third person. So you probably have a lot of people who would have become serial killers, but they get caught earlier.

[Bob Crawford]

Well, and getting to this, and we've talked about this throughout our conversation as well, but getting to the second part of Dave's question, which is, are there fewer serial killers today?

[Katherine Townsend]

It's a really hard question to answer. I'm not avoiding it. I don't know. I think that, okay, research will tell you, studies will tell you that there are. There probably are. At the same time, you got to look at where the homicide clearance rates are going There are fewer homicides being cleared now somewhere around.

[Bob Crawford]

What do you mean by being cleared?

[Katherine Townsend]

So that's the thing. When the police give these statistics and they say you have a certain percentage of homicides that are cleared, it doesn't necessarily mean they're solved and the person's behind bars. All that it means is I believe that the police have basically gone as far as they can in that investigation and either the people are dead who might be responsible, or they can't find them. I mean, they literally will mark it cleared, meaning, but it might not be solved. So you've got that first of all, and then it's only about 60%. 50 to 60% are cleared. That doesn't include all the missing people out there. So that means you've got about a one in two chance of getting away with murder. Yeah, you got a 50, 50 chance of getting away with murder in America based on where you are and that. That's a little scary, to be honest with you. I mean, when you watch shows like CSI and Law and Order, you're not seeing that. So I do think that there are potentially more people out there. I think they're, you know. And plus, what about all the missing people? A lot of them are probably not alive, but they're not officially getting counted. So I do think there are fewer serial killers. I do think the technology at catching them earlier has gotten better, but I don't think that we should rest easy.

[Bob Crawford]

We certainly won't be resting easy here, but it has been nice and easy having a conversation with you. I've been talking to Katherine Townsend. She's host of the podcast Helen Gone, Murder Line and Red Collar. Give her a call sometimes. Kathryn, thanks for joining us today on American History Hotline.

[Katherine Townsend]

Thank you so much.

[Bob Crawford]

You've been listening to American History Hotline, a production of iHeart podcasts and Scratch Track Productions. The show's executive producer is James Morrison. Our executive producers from Iheart are Jordan Runtal and Jason English. Original music composed by me, Bob Crawford. Please keep in touch. Our email is americanhistoryhotlinemail.com if you like the show, please tell your friends and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. I'm your host, Bob Crawford. Feel free to hit me up on social media to ask a history question or to let me know what you think of the show. You can find me at bobcrawer Base. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Honestly, honestly, honestly, no one wants to think about hiv, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like prep. PREP stands for pre exposure prophylaxis, and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances. Chances of getting it prep can be about 99 effective when taken as prescribed. It doesn't protect against other STIs, though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices. Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention Options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead. What a matchup we got, y'. All. This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chance at drum beat. Everybody showing that school pride. Game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there. Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere. Adding ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo no matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going. The day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder in San Diego, it's Tostadas New York Espresso Martini. It's 10:00am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight. The shower that resets your day, the menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve, the most rewarding card. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval. So usually on okay Storytime, our audience will send in their relationship problems. And the okay Storytime squad gives some good advice goofily. But today we're not giving out our usual advice. Our producer Riley says we're giving something else. So what are we doing today, Riley?

[Katherine Townsend]

They were playing a little game.

[Bob Crawford]

Oh, game, Says the man. I bought special gifts for you guys from ebay. Each one picked with one of you in mind. Yeah, Dakota, if you want to guess. All right. There is a gift at my feet. Open that. And now it is in my hands. I feel like it's got to be our resident gamer. Key. This is the rectangle of childhood. It's a portable game console. I used to have this as a kid, this game console I used to play all the time. And you know when your mom came into the room when you were a kid and like, you're pretending to sleep, but Riley, what a thoughtful gift. Yeah, thank you so much, Riley. You're crushing it. But we have one more gift. Yeah, we got another. Let's open it. Boom. Oh, camera. An old timey camera. That's right. Classic. This is awesome. Because you know how I love to take pictures of my travels. Yeah, you're always somewhere, whether it's in Kyrgyzstan with some nomads or just New York, you know, with a nice little piece of trash or a rat.

[Katherine Townsend]

Little nice picture.

[Bob Crawford]

I'm taking pictures with the birds. So, Riley, you got all this from eBay, dude, eBay. It was really fun finding it with you guys. Like, I had very specific things for each one of you. Yeah, it was all there. Thanks, Riley.

[Katherine Townsend]

And thank you.

[Bob Crawford]

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