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- [00:01]
Mike
You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast.
- [00:17]
Podcast Host
Hello and thank you for joining this special edition of the American Revolution. Our American Revolution Roundtable this month was joined by four people to discuss the ongoing preparations for the 250th at various parks in the Washington's Crossing area. We were joined by Alex Robb of Washington Crossing Historic Park, Pennsylvania, Mark Cyrak of Washington Crossing State Park, New Jersey, Mark Turdo of the Old Barracks Museum in Trenton, New Jersey, and Will Krakauer from the Princeton Battlefield State park in New Jersey. We discussed a little about the events that took place at each of the locations they administer and how they are Planning for their 250th celebrations later this year. Some of the preparations involve special events happening on the anniversary dates of the events that happened. Others are more permanent improvements, including new museums and new infrastructure that will be available to visitors going forward. Our discussion, as always, took place on Zoom.
- [01:25]
Mike
Well, thanks everyone for joining the American Revolution Roundtable on the American Revolution Podcast. We do one of these every month and usually we have a guest speaker who talks about some particular aspect of the American Revolution. Tonight, though, we have four speakers. Four representatives from some of the major parks involved in the 10 crucial days, Washington's Crossing and the battles of Trenton and Princeton, have joined with us to talk a little bit about what's going on in their respective areas. We have Alex Robb, who is from Washington Crossing Historic park in Pennsylvania, Mark Cyrak, who is from Washington Crossing State park in New Jersey. Yes, these are two things that just face each other and are completely separate and yet joined at the hip. Also, Will Krakauer from the Princeton Battlefield State park and Mark Turdo from the Old Barracks Museum. Welcome all of you to the American Revolution.
- [02:22]
Mark Turdo
Thank you for having us.
- [02:23]
Alex Robb
Yes, thank you.
- [02:24]
Mark Cyrak
Thank you very much.
- [02:26]
Mike
So, Alex, I guess I'll start with you since you were kind enough to help us arrange this whole thing. You are from Washington Crossing State park in Pennsylvania. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into all this?
- [02:40]
Alex Robb
I've been interested in history as long as I can remember and I got started in Revolutionary War reenacting at the tail end of high school and through Colle College. And I lived pretty local to the park and, and indeed all the other sites that are represented here. And so I just started volunteering and reenacting and was very fortunate that I got a full time educator position there. You know, it's, it's a really, it's a really fun, fun job. There's a lot of variety, A lot of different things to do, a lot of different projects. Even aside from the, you know, the various reenactments and everything, It's a really awesome opportunity to be part of the larger committee made up of people from all the various sites to plan what I think is going to be the most immersive and unique 250th experience, certainly for our region, with some of the most pivotal events, and not just the revolution, but really for all of world history.
- [03:39]
Mike
Just, we all think know what the ten crucial days are here. But just for everyone, we're Talking about the 10 crucial days that really changed the Revolutionary war. At the end of 1776, the Continental army had retreated from New York, and New Jersey was kind of on its back in Pennsylvania. Everybody kind of thought it was going to die at the end of the year when the army enlistments expired. Washington, I think, in a very desperate effort to keep everything alive, famously crossed the Delaware, attacked the Hessian outpost at Trenton. Then, of course, the British sent down an army of regulars to stop him. There was in the second battle of Trenton, and then the Americans slipped around and attacked Princeton. And that happened over the course of 10 days. Now, Alex, you represent Washington's Crossing museum in Pennsylvania. Is there anything in particular about the crossing that you think people don't know or any interesting tidbit you can share with us about what happened there?
- [04:41]
Alex Robb
That's a good question. There's a lot of things that I think are shrouded in a degree of mythology. I think a lot of people, when they. When they get to our park, don't realize that, you know, the crossing itself was, you know, at least the one that took part in the parks that Mark Cyrak and I represent, you know, that there were supposed to be two other crossings. This was just one piece of a much larger operation to really kind of take back New Jersey. And I think people don't really realize the scale, you know, of the operation and all the logistics that went into it, and the fact that the plan comes together rather late in December, only a couple days before the Crawley takes place. And that speaks to the leadership and the organization and the professionalism of the people who were.
- [05:26]
Mark Cyrak
Who were handling.
- [05:28]
Alex Robb
So I think people more than anything, the scale of the operation and just how spread out the troops were through bucks and. And, you know, how big this. This operation really was.
- [05:40]
Mike
Yeah. And what, of course, amazed me is that there were supposed to be multiple crossings, and all of them failed, except for the one that was taking place under George Washington's personal purview. And despite the fact that all the other crossings failed, the one crossing that did succeed was such an amazing success. Now, of course, Washington cross from Pennsylvania, who is from the Washington's Crossing State Park, New Jersey. Mark, welcome.
- [06:07]
Mark Cyrak
Hi. Thank you very much for having me. So just a little bit about myself. I also got into history at a very young age. I can date it all the way back to my uncle's family taking my family out to Gettysburg when I was around 11. And then I was lucky enough to actually start here at Washington Crossing State park as a 16 year old in the maintenance department as a seasonal and then moved into the actual permanent maintenance there while I got all my degrees and then was lucky enough to be able to move into the museum over here at the crossing. I'm excited about everything that's going on this year. There's a lot to do and a lot to see at all these parks. So yeah, that's what I have.
- [06:50]
Mike
Is there anything in particular that you find interesting or some tidbit you know about the crossing that you find interesting?
- [06:56]
Mark Cyrak
One of the things that I find interesting is that as we mentioned that the other crossings failed, but even this crossing here was so delayed from what Washington's original plan was that he did contemplate the possibility of calling off this crossing as well. And the entire operation would have been for naught. Obviously he chose not to do that. And we have a great history story to tell because of that. But I just think that's a little known fact that there was some contemplation there about whether this was something that should continue as the crossing was occurring. Another thing that I like to point out is that while this was a surprise attack and there are some writings about quiet on the march and stuff, I like to point out that, you know, the stentorian voice, the booming stentorian voice of Knoxworth's heard over the noise of the crashing ice and things. And that many people don't realize that although this is a surprise and a movement to attack Trenton and you would want to be quiet as you march and get closer, the actual crossing itself was actually probably a pretty noisy situation.
- [08:08]
Mike
I guess. Next, in order of the operation, we'll go to Mark Turdo from the old barracks museum in Trenton.
- [08:15]
Mark Turdo
Yeah, hi. Thank you again for having me. I'm one of those strange people who started really young in museums. I was actually 12 when I started working in museums and have just never left. 16 when I started reenacting. Because the curator at the site who actually had Been the curator at the old barracks right before he came and worked with us in Lehigh Valley, got me into all this. And I still blame him for that. I'm sure he's listening and will let me know about that. But I spent most of my career working in both officially curation and interpretation, and now I have the joy of getting to do both officially at the old barracks. There's actually two things I think about with the story of the Battles of Trenton. One is sort of big picture, and that is how tied to the. To the survival of the Declaration of Independence these events are. It seems to get lost. I mean, and sometimes we make a lot of jokes at the museum with visitors about they didn't cross the Delaware to go to Valley Forge. That's a common thing. I'm sure my colleagues at the park have heard that on more than one occasion. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [09:17]
Will Krakauer
That all turned her brain. But it's.
- [09:20]
Mark Turdo
It's also, why did this happen? Why was this so important? Why does Trenton, Why does Princeton. Why do all these events get this attention? And that's because it literally saves the revolution. And the second thing I always like to say, and this is something I've, you know, talked about for years, even before I was at the old barracks, the Hessians were not drunk. They were tired and overworked. You know, I love to point that out. They were. They were just on constant duty for days. In fact, they looked like the Americans who would attack them a few days later. They were tired, underfed, probably. Their uniforms and clothing were in tatters. They just. They wanted a break and they were not getting one. It had nothing to do with alcohol.
- [10:00]
Mike
Yeah, I think that's true. The Hessian commander had them marching and doing all sorts of stuff, being on alert for so many days that they were exhausted. He finally figured, all right, we finally have one day where we can relax a little because the weather's so horrible. Nope.
- [10:14]
Mark Turdo
Yeah. Although it's funny, is even. I think Margaret Hill Morris even says, oh, it's because they were those Germans. They drink on Christmas. Like, the next day she hears about it and says that. So, like that. That belief that the Hessians were drunk goes back to the day of the battle, basically.
- [10:31]
Mike
Oh.
- [10:31]
Will Krakauer
So it's.
- [10:32]
Mark Turdo
It's going to be a hard story to break, but it's. I love telling visitors that.
- [10:35]
Mike
Plus, I've known a lot of Germans and they could put back a lot of beer before they drunk.
- [10:39]
Mark Cyrak
So true.
- [10:43]
Mike
Our final guest tonight is Will Krakauer from the Princeton Battlefield State Park. Hi, Will.
- [10:49]
Will Krakauer
How are you, Mike? Thanks for having us.
- [10:50]
Mike
Why don't you tell us a little about yourself?
- [10:53]
Will Krakauer
Well, I fear going last means it'll be an oft heard refrain. I got started in history pretty young. I started reenacting when I was about 16 as well. I started my career in the State Park Service, actually, at Washington Crossing State park in New Jersey. I learned under Mark and our former colleague Clay, who just recently retired. Maybe he's listening, I don't know. And I was there for a few years before I moved here to Princeton Battlefield to take over the reins from John Mills, who, some of you may know, was my predecessor here. So I've been here, oh, for a while, for a while now at the battlefields, and it's just home sweet home.
- [11:41]
Mike
And do you have any interesting tidbits about the Battle of Princeton?
- [11:45]
Will Krakauer
I could probably fill the next hour with interesting tidbits about the Battle of Princeton. One of my favorite unknown facts, and this is the fun fact that I gave. We just had the Lieutenant Governor of New Jersey and the first gentleman pay us a visit earlier this week. And they said, oh, it's got a fun fact. And I said, here's your fun fact. Colonel Mahood, the Lieutenant Colonel Mahood, the British commander of the 4th Brigade that's garrisoning Princeton and on its way south towards Trenton on the morning of the third, has with him two cocker spaniels. And those cocker spaniels are so noteworthy that they appear in a couple of accounts that they were yapping all around Mahood's horse. And at one point, the American fire and the British fire were so close together that the American troops actually stopped firing because Mahood's horse got so spooked that he rode close to the American line. They thought he was coming over to throw it in, throw in the towel. He wasn't. He had just lost control of his horse and was quickly back. But those dogs make mention a few times. I love those dogs.
- [12:53]
Mike
It's like a lot of the British officers had dogs they took out.
- [12:55]
Will Krakauer
Yeah, it's very popular. Very popular. Captain William Leslie, who is killed here at Princeton, also has at least one dog with him, possibly two by some accounts. So there may have been more dogs than British soldiers at the Battle of Princeton.
- [13:11]
Mike
I know, I know. Charles Lee, he wasn't at Princeton or Trenton, but he was a big fan of having his dogs around at all times, too.
- [13:17]
Will Krakauer
I think that's just a carryover from his British days.
- [13:20]
Mike
Yeah, there's. General Howe, famously lost his dog at Germantown Washington returned it. So. Yeah. And the one thing I've taken from each of your introductions is that if I wanted to have a really cool job at one of these sites, I should have started 40 years ago.
- [13:35]
Mark Turdo
But it's not a requirement. I think you just found the right circle of geeks. I think that's really what that is.
- [13:41]
Mike
All right, all of you are Preparing for the 250th, which everybody calls the semi centennial. I still resist and call it the Sester Centennial. We'll call it the 250th, just to keep it simple. Of course, a lot of people are thinking of the 250th as being July 4th in Philadelphia when the Declaration of Independence is approved. Of course, as one of you pointed out, before we started recording, the 250th lasts for about eight and a half years. It's already started, and it's going to go on well beyond your 250th starts on Christmas of this year. That's when, of course, Washington famously crossed the Delaware and started this whole business that we're talking about tonight. So what do you guys have? And again, I'm going to start with you, Alex, for 250th celebrations. I know you have an annual crossing of the Delaware reenactment, and I'm sure that's part of your plans, but are you doing anything special or interesting for the 250th?
- [14:40]
Alex Robb
Yeah, I think, you know, as you mentioned, certainly the reenactment. And we actually do two. We do one that we call first crossing, which is always the second Sunday in December. Then we do, of course, the one on. On Christmas Day, pending the cooperation of the river. In years past, we've had basically the opposite problem of Washington. The river was too low, and it's prevented us from putting boats in and getting. Getting people across. But, you know, hoping that will not be the. It will not be an issue this year. But leading up to the reenactments, just in the next couple months, we are, we are going to be installing a newly built replica Durham boat, which will actually be part of sort of an interactive thing. It'll be right on the waterfront, basically in the park, and it will have a portion of it cut out, and it'll be ground level that visitors can walk into the Durham boat and then have the backdrop of the Delaware right where the crossing took place. It's all part of a new interpretive trail that has been in the works since about this time last year. It'll be accompanied by at least eight interpretive waysides kind of going along this trail, Talking about the 24 hours leading up to the crossing and the. And the crossing itself. So we're. We're excited to have those be a part of, not just the reenactment, but for visitors that are coming year round. And. And, you know, of course, through. Through the coming years, it means a good bit of work because now we have to rewrite our tour and other programs to sort of incorporate these things, but I know they'll be really neat assets. As for the reenactment itself, we've been working over the last couple years to sort of improve. Of course, you know, we don't cross in the middle of the night, and there's hardly ever any nor' Easters on the exact day, but we try as much as possible to. To stick to what we know happened in terms of, you know, how the troops are organized and what was being said and who was doing what and that sort of thing. And one of the things I'm really excited about, and it's one of the initiatives of the larger committee, is to incorporate more vignettes and more spotlights on people that we know were here and including new perspectives that I think otherwise, you know, have. Have just kind of been largely overlooked from an interpretive standpoint in these larger events. So I think in some sense, it is kind of the same old thing, because this will be the 74th year, if I'm not mistaken, that the crossing has gone on. But each year we're looking to add new things into. Into the mix, to continue to improve and. And to, you know, keep telling the story to the best of our ability.
- [17:08]
Mike
That sounds good. Yeah, it really is a lot of fun to see. I. I've only been able to watch it on video because for some reason, I can't convince my family on Christmas Day to go up to Trenton and watch the reenactment. So, Mark Cyrak, what's going on in the New Jersey side of things?
- [17:25]
Mark Cyrak
Well, just to go back to what you just said there, that's the beauty of the first crossing that's done on that Sunday is, you know, you can come out, experience it, see it as well, but it's not a holiday, so you get to come see it. And we generally, in most years, have a larger program on that day than we actually have on Christmas Day. That won't probably be the case this year. As the larger committee, we're working very hard to have a great, grand event that I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about in the future there. But on the Jersey side, on Christmas Day itself, we always have our historians over here and we do a talk to kind of do what we're doing here, kind of lead up to the crossing, because so many people come to the crossing to see it a lot of times, because they know the Leutze painting, Manuel Leutze's painting, and that this is an important moment, according to that, in history. And they don't always know that background story of the losses in New York, et cetera, and exactly what is happening and what is occurring at the crossing other than that painting and the getting across the river. So we do a nice talk about that. And we have different other historians in period dress in the Nelson House, which is a 18th century building, a 19th century building, but right there on the riverfront, it was a later Ferry house. So, yeah, we do a lot of that. On the first crossing, we usually have some troops on our side as well. We always joke, kind of, you know, like, they have to come to us, they have to land here. So we have to see everybody and show everybody what's going on in the New Jersey side. So we usually have a few soldiers here with some campfires. On first crossing, we will have a series of speakers, historians as well as reenactors, talking about the breadth, not just of the crossing, but again, the different perspectives. Like Alex said, you know, women during the revolution or African Americans during the revolution, things of that sort. So we're doing all of that as a larger program in conjunction with Pennsylvania.
- [19:37]
Mike
I know a lot of organizations have used this anniversary as an effort to improve some of their permanent facilities. And, of course, the New Jersey site is no exception of that. You guys have a new museum, I understand, right?
- [19:51]
Mark Cyrak
Yes. That's kind of the exciting part. The state has really invested in Washington Crossing State park to the tune of over $25 million. The highlight being that new museum. But there's also. We restored the Johnson Ferry House, the exterior of the fairy house, all new restored windows and exterior. Took them actually out and did a lot more work. Probably the first time that this extensive restoration has been done since the park opened in the 1920s. Did that with the Johnson Ferry House, the only building on either side of the river that was actually here on the night of the crossing. The bones of it, the stone barn, which is also an 18th century building built in the late 1780s, 1790s, same thing. Did a complete exterior renovation of that Bear Tavern, which many people. That is one of the Interesting tidbits. Many people at times thought that that was here on the night of the crossing. And it actually was probably this particular building was built in the early 19th century, still a historic building. So we completely restored the exterior of that as well. And other improvements throughout the park are picnic facilities. We've put new roofs, we've built new pavilions. Just trying to enhance the experience of the visitor throughout the park. Not just the historical area, but throughout the park. The Nelson House as well is also the wcpa. Our friends group has invested, was able to get an investment in that building and restore some of that as well. But as I said, the highlight is the new museum. The old museum where I'm currently stationed is about a half a mile from the river. And it's always been in a situation where people go, well, I'm at Washington Crossing. Where's the river? Why? Why don't I see anything? So one of the reasons that we moved down there, it was a very deliberate reason we moved closer to the river so that we are creating more of a true historic district between the museum, the stone barn, the Nelson House, and the Johnson Ferry House. And the river, of course, the most important piece itself. And this museum is going to be really, really cool. It's state of the art. It's built into the side of a hill. One of the things that we really wanted to be deliberate about and take into account is, you know, obviously we're trying to get closer to the river and that historic district, but we don't want to overpower it with a modern building. So it's built into the side of the hill. It has a green roof. The actual concrete itself is because it is a very large concrete building. The coloring of the concrete blends into the hillside as well as much as possible. So it was very well thought out in terms of that. Some of the cool things that go along with it are we. When you exit the parking lot to move towards the museum, you have the choice of either going around the front and actually entering the museum, or you can follow up the face of the museum, a ramp that takes you to the roof so that you can see the river from the actual museum, which was important to my colleague Clay. As Will mentioned, Clay and I worked together for over 20 years, and this is kind of the culmination. He couldn't quite get to the opening of the museum, but he put his heart and soul into this product. So we were very cognizant of that ability to see the river. That also allows us for viewing of the Crossing itself, you now have the opportunity to see it from the top of the museum. From the. In front of the museum is still what we call the overlook area, which has been around since the 1920s. A stone wall that overlooks the lower area of the park and the river. Then of course along the riverbank as well. So it does give us that opportunity to have tiered three tiers of viewing and be able to host quite a large sum of people that we hope are going to come out and check out the crossing for both the Pennsylvania and the New Jersey side. So that's one aspect of it. We have a great terrazzo map that's going to be in what we call the Flex Gallery, which is a large congregating gallery. It's Based off the 1777 William Faden map of the movements of the King's troops against Trenton. We say it's based off of. Because Clay and I did change a few things to make it a little bit more accurate as to what was going on. We're excited about that because it gives us a great new interpretive tool for any visitor. But one of my dreams is to have a program where it's for the younger visitors, those three to six year olds where we can actually allow them to do a craft where they build a, a boat, whether it's a ferry or a Durham boat. We haven't figured out exactly which one we're going to utilize. And then they can cross the river right there on the floor and march their men down to Trenton to just get a little basic hands on, maybe spark someone even younger than all of us became historians. So we're excited about that aspect of it as well. We will have a large auditorium so we can have large school groups. Our exhibits are going to feature the Swan Historical foundation collection which was founded by Kel Swan and the museum exhibits themselves. The first quarter will be from the French and Indian War up to the moment of the crossing. Half the museum will go from the crossing. Basically our story, all of our site story, the 10 crucial days. And then the final quarter of the museum goes from the battle of Princeton all the way to the end of the war. Highlighting the different artifacts that we have from the Swan Historical foundation in that Flex Gallery. We will also have several cases that we can do a temporary exhibits in and have a rotating exhibit of the other thousand plus artifacts that we'll have in store. But the real wow factor I think that we are hoping is a wow factor for everybody when they come is that in that section of the exhibit when you get up to the moment of the crossing, you will actually go into a crossing experience theater, we're calling it, where you load up onto a faux ferryboat, you're surrounded on three sides by screens, and you'll actually cross the river with Washington, with the snow, everything going on, seeing Durham boats moving along on your right and your left, hearing the noises of the crossing, hearing soldiers shouting, officers shouting, giving commands, things of that sort. So we're hoping that, that, you know, it's a real wow factor for people that they get that opportunity to actually cross with Washington that's not afforded. Although both the Pennsylvania park and US have always wanted to actually allow you to cross the river. But it's really a technical difficulty for us in today's day and age. Just the insurance would not be great.
- [26:42]
Mike
Yeah, I imagine the legal implications are off the char.
- [26:51]
Podcast Host
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- [29:51]
Mark Cyrak
Yeah, and I would be remiss if I did not mention also the Washington Crossing park association, our friends group, who has worked with us on a lot with the museum. There is a mural that was rediscovered in the basement of one of our other historic sites by George Matthews Harding. We kind of knew it was around, but we never had a place to display it. That's a whole. Another fun story is it was commissioned in 1921 for the RKO Theater, the old Taylor Opera House. It then was on the mezzanine level there for 48 years until they were going to tear it down to build a parking lot. Amateur conservators saved, ended up at Skylands Manor up in North Jersey. The plan was for that. One of the plans was for that to actually end up in the brand new visitor center at Washington Crossing State park for the bicentennial in 1976. They did not design this building for it, so it never got installed and we've never had a location for it. So when it was rediscovered, the friends group was able to have a conservator, a local conservator from Lambertville, look at it, decide it could be conserved, raised over $100,000 and brought it back to life. And we designed the museum to have a place of honor right in the Flex Gallery where it will actually be able to be seen even when the museum is closed. So we're super excited for what they have given us, this great interpretive tool, and I think a lot of people will enjoy it. It's a different kind of mural from the Leutse painting. It's a lot more rugged, a lot more going on in it to show you the different logistics of the crossing. So I Think it'll be a great addition to the new museum.
- [31:41]
Mike
Mark Turdo from the Old Barracks Museum. I sometimes tell a joke. It's a stupid joke, but it's that Washington crossing the Delaware wasn't that impressive. I do that twice a day to go to work. But his real impressive thing was being willing to enter Trenton at night. You guys were in Trenton? Tell us a little about the old Barracks Museum.
- [32:02]
Mark Turdo
I will. I will say now, having spent a lot of time in Trenton after hours after dark is not a problem.
- [32:08]
Mike
Okay, good.
- [32:09]
Mark Turdo
Unfortunately, the town has a reputation still that does not fit its modern self. So the old Barracks Museum actually has been closed, actually, for the last year now. We've been undergoing restoration and renovations as well. We're getting a new H vac system, new roof, new railings, new woodwork on the outside of the building. All of this in the lead up to July 4th, when we reopen. It's really, as I think we mentioned a little bit earlier, the 250th has been a great time, as Mark just said, and I know Alex mentioned, and I know Will's going to say for us all to sort of revisit and redevelop what we have to offer. And the Barracks is doing that with its building, also with the building, all new exhibitions. So we're going to have. Now that we get the building back in July, we're going to spend the rest of the year finishing our exhibits and installing them so that by early December, we'll have the opening in time for the 10 crucial days. 250th. So we're also taking advantage of this moment to redevelop ourselves, tell more stories, tell more complete stories than we have. And some of the more interesting things about that. We're still going to have an exhibition on the French and Indian War, because that's our origin story at the barracks. We were built in 1758 to house British soldiers in the midst of the war. So we don't want to ignore that. And that also lays the foundation, the infrastructure, literally, for the revolution in New Jersey. We'll then have a large exhibition on the battles of Trenton. And one of the things I'm sort of excited about there, I say sort of, I'm really excited about, is we are going to be bringing back things like remnants of the Hessian flags that were captured. We've been compiling a list of all the known remnants that are in public and private hands. And through the next few years in the exhibition, we're going to cycle through them so if you come back, say once every three months, you'll see a new remnant that was captured that will have a new story to tell. One of the things we're really excited about is in our collection we have Washington's at one of the triumphal arches that was set up for Washington in Trenton in April of 1789 on his way to his inauguration in New York City. And what we want to do in the exhibition is actually put that up so that you can walk under that arch just as Washington did and have that moment. It's a big arch. When I say arch, it's not a little doorway. It's a 14 foot wide, 4 foot tall arch that partly sat on 13 columns.
- [34:30]
Will Krakauer
So it's big.
- [34:30]
Mark Turdo
That's our July, I mean July into early December. That's our focus for the 250th. But we're also gearing up, as we've already talked about, for the 250th of the 10 crucial days. So we always have the battles of Trenton the first Saturday after Christmas, that is every year. We actually do both battles, the December 26th and the January 2nd third on the same day because it's too hard to get reenactors to come back for two different days several days apart. We do the December battle in the morning and then in the afternoon we do the January battle. What's really fun, I think, about the battles of Trenton, a lot of people have have said, have commented it's a modern city because we're fighting on the city streets and people say it's the modern city and it's not historical. The funny thing about that is that is both a true comment and it misses a point, which is the streets are largely the same as they were in 1776. When we are fighting with the reenactment, we're on the exact spot the Hessians were the Continental army was the Crown forces. Later, you know, we're actually on the spots. We can point to very specific places, almost, you know, street, you know, at Warren and State. We know what happened there. You know, we can be very precise about our story in a way that a battlefield can't. So they're right. It's a modern city. But it affords us a power of place that I think a lot of places don't always have as handily as we do. Our battles tend to be. I always joke that it's a battle on the skirmish level. None of us get the numbers that were there, but we always try to recreate something so that Visitors get a sense of what was happening, what was at least the emotion for these battles, because they are especially the first battle of Trenton, kind of a melee kind of a mess. It's not the set piece battle that you might see at a battlefield at a normal reenactment demonstration. It really is guys running around very confused about what's going on on both sides. And we get to show that a little bit so that it's not a perfect, clean, sort of 18th century chess board of a battle. And one of the things that I think I will say of the four of us from the sites, I'm the newest in my role. I've only been at the barracks. It's not quite three years. It'll be three years next month. And one of the things that I was excited about when I came on board was getting to create this 250th event, which isn't just our rattle and their battles and their event. It's our big event for the 250th. And I think that's the other thing that I'm excited about for the 250th, is over the course of a long weekend, you can now go to all the big events of the 10 crucial days. And I think that's really cool. I think that's something that's a once in a lifetime event, because I know for the 225th, which I was part of, we didn't do it quite this way. And I think this is going to be a lot of fun for that reason alone. Plus the battles themselves.
- [37:24]
Mike
Yeah, sounds good. Well, I guess we'll move on to Will at the Princeton battlefield. What have you guys got going on for the 250th?
- [37:32]
Will Krakauer
Well, again, I have the pleasure of batting cleanup here, and it's a lot of what you've already heard. Sorry, Will. And that's fine. We stand on the shoulders of giants. We have all of these updates to the visitor service facilities that the state has been pushing for the last several years have come to fruition. The colonnade, which anyone who's visited the battlefield, it is undeniably the single most iconic and recognizable feature that was not here at the time of the battle, has just undergone a massive cleaning and structural work was done to it to make it last for another, you know, 100 years. Thank you. Hopefully, Clark House itself has seen some work done. The outbuildings have seen some work done. But the most impressive thing I think visitors are going to see, especially if you visited us before, is all of the rehabilitation work that's being done on the field itself. For the last several years, almost the last full decade, the park, the Department of Environmental Protection, the Princeton Battlefield Society and the American Battlefield Trust have been working together on a massive overhaul project of the site to try to return the ground to look as close as it did on the morning of January 3, 1777. So I think visitors are going to be very excited this year to see a park that is the same park, but now it looks the way, or it will look the way it's supposed to look at the time of the battle. So you're going to see more fences, historic roadways are going to be recreated as walking trails. There's going to be more, hopefully crops that are growing. We have winter wheat planned for, for the battlefield itself, which would have been here at the time of the fighting. And like my fellow colleagues here, we've been spending time, really the last couple years. I have a very small but mighty team who's been doing some incredible research, trying to increase the breadth of our story here, just like we are here. The Battle of Princeton has the pleasure of batting cleanup to 10 days of incredible fighting and maneuvering and undeniable stories of bravery and courage and literally throwing every card they had left on the table into one climactic moment. I mean, Spielberg himself couldn't write a better story and ended on such a. An incredible note here at the battlefield. So, to Mark's point about a lot of battle reenactments being very static and very dry, we've been working the last several years. I have to give a shout out to one of our other colleagues, Ken Gavin, who has done a lot of work in taking his reenactment and bringing it to a level that this area hasn't had a chance to see in a long time. Like Mark said, a lot of times these battle reenactments are slow and plotting and it's line against line. We have done a tremendous amount of work digging into the primary source material. And when we meet with our officers before the reenactment, it is a history test of, you know, primary source material. You are going to do what so and so said happened on the field. And what that results in is a kind of reenactment that is very fast paced, not what a lot of spectators are used to seeing. When the British take the field, they don't stand there and fire for 10 minutes. They fire once or twice and it's fixed, bayonets in charge. It's very authentic. To the 18th century. So I have to give a lot of credit to our reenacting units that have come out and a number of individuals who've stepped up to the plate to make this a very, very authentic reenacting experience. All of this to say that this is the tip of the iceberg for what we have collectively planned for the 250th anniversary of the 10 crucial days. We've all hinted at it, but this is a one of a kind event, the first of its kind in this 250th cycle for this region that is covering four different sites and four major events over the course of a long weekend. It has been an unbelievable pleasure to work with these guys and the rest of our colleagues in pulling this thing together. And I'm. I'm very hopeful and also very certain that a lot of people are going to enjoy this, that this is going to be something unlike anything else that people are going to experience over the course of this 250th cycle. And yeah, I mean, I think you can tell just by talking to us, we're all real jazzed about it. We're very excited to put this on.
- [42:12]
Mike
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Mark Turdo
And that's why your cleanup.
- [42:14]
Alex Robb
That's right.
- [42:16]
Mike
No, that's. That's why this is. It really is kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity for, for these, these events. Because I don't think all of us will be around for the tri centennial. So, you know, this is it for our lifetime. It sounds like you guys have a lot of great things going on. I want to open this up to the rest of the roundtable for questions. If anybody has questions for any of our guests tonight, feel free to shout
- [42:40]
Mark Cyrak
out question for Mark at the New Jersey side. When is the museum opening to the public? Oh, see, that's.
- [42:48]
Will Krakauer
I should have. I should have put money on whether somebody was going to ask that or not. I should have put money down.
- [42:55]
Mark Cyrak
I don't have an exact date yet. I am a bet hedger. So I say 20, 26. It will definitely be ready for the crossing. It is close. It is getting close. However, you know, construction delays, as always occurs, has slowed down our momentum and there will be work once we get construction done. There's all the interior stuff, such as Mark Turtle mentioned. You know, they're going to open up on the 4th of July, but they're still going to be putting in new exhibits and things all the way through December. In our situation, it's a little bit different that we can't really open up fully to the public. Until we are able to get all of these large sums of artifacts into the storage facility. And to do that, we're going to have to maintain the building probably being closed that period so that we can finish that part of the project. That being said, I am not authorized to give any dates.
- [43:56]
Will Krakauer
That's top secret information, Michael.
- [43:58]
Mark Cyrak
That's. But it is coming. It's coming very soon. And I know I'm hedging a lot here, but I just want to be careful and not get everybody's hopes up and then have another delay of some sort. Thank you, sir.
- [44:11]
Will Krakauer
Have a question, Will you mentioned long weekend.
- [44:15]
Mark Cyrak
Which. Which weekend are you specifically referring to?
- [44:20]
Will Krakauer
Only one. Yeah. 24, 25, 26, 27. So you're, you know, everybody's Christmas plans this year Again, once in a lifetime experience. You want to celebrate Christmas in Bucks county and Mercer county this year? I'm telling you, this is the place to be.
- [44:39]
Alex Robb
Santa Claus comes every year. The semi Quinn only comes once in a lifetime.
- [44:43]
Will Krakauer
There you go. There you go. And I'll tell you what, Santa may even come this year.
- [44:51]
Mark Turdo
I feel like that won't get kids there, but it's fine.
- [44:55]
Will Krakauer
Don Triani posts every year on his, on his Facebook page the painting that he had done, not the new one, but the original one of the Battle of Trenton. And he posted every year, and I like it every time. And it says the greatest Christmas present in American history. And it's, you know, of course, it's poor Colonel Rawle being shot off his horse.
- [45:17]
Mark Cyrak
As we all talk about this, Will, why don't you, as our website connoisseur, throw out the website for everybody so they can actually get some of the information more handily.
- [45:28]
Will Krakauer
I'll even type it in the chat if I can. Here it is, 10 crucial days250.org and there it is. Feel free to take a look. Like the visitor center at Washington Crossing State park, the website is also being constantly updated. So if there's something on there that you're expecting to see that isn't there yet, we promise it's coming. One of the cool things, we didn't get a chance to mention it, but this is something that Mark is bringing from. Mark Turtle is bringing from his experience in the past working at these events and these sites. It's something that I'm personally really excited about is the 10 crucial days 250 guidebook, the Spectator guidebook. And, you know, it's like a program. It'll have the schedule and everything, but it's going to have all of the extra stuff that we wanted to share with you and the spectators who are coming to these events, that we just. We couldn't do it right. You can't tell every single story, otherwise these events would be hours and hours and hours long. So we're really looking for. This is something that you'll be able to download on your phone. Well, printed versions will be available, and it's going to tell folks the whole story. We have one of our great historians working with us, Mr. Larry Kidder. I'm sure you're all familiar, who's been writing some. Some history up for us and some bios of all of the people we want you to be on the lookout for in these events. So that's. That's going to be. That's going to be up on the website sometime in the next few months. That's going to be awesome.
- [46:57]
Mark Turdo
And to follow up with that, those bios are of little vignettes that were not little vignettes, but vignettes we're creating where we're having reenactors portray people from the past in the moment that we know about something they did. You know, like a Simons is taking pot shots. And we can have that person highlighted in direct visitors to see that moment. We're having one Washington across all of this, so it's not four different Washingtons. We're creating something so that you're not only seeing the battle, but you're getting to meet the people whose lives are forever affected. I mean, a lot of the best stories have come out of pension depositions that we've all been researching, that if you read just the officer's notes and letters in the moment, you're not getting that. But decades later, these men remember these experiences. It's so visceral, so present for them. They're recording that in pensions. And we're taking many of those stories and bringing them to life, a few of them anyway, and trying to give people a sense of it's not just Washington and his personality winning this battle, it's all these other people.
- [48:02]
Will Krakauer
There were a couple of questions in there. Yeah. Mark and I were answering them. One of them was any pro tips for someone who's never been to a room reenactment I mentioned Talk to the reenactors. You have four reenactors on this call here. And every one of us can tell you that some of it is selfishly done, but there's a portion of it that is. We want to talk to spectators. We want to tell you about our uniforms. We Want to tell you the stories, you know, of the faceless people who, who actually took part in these incredible events. And then of course, Mark followed up with the. The most useful piece of information that you could possibly ever have, which is come early, get the best parking. And all of that information is going on the. The website. So you'll be able to. To know where to go and how to get there and where the best parking is. And there's going to be lodging information as well. And we've already got some excellent deals from some local hotels for that period. So there's a place to stay. Yeah, Barry, you're right. The rehearsal is always a great way
- [49:11]
Mark Turdo
to see the crossing and keep your family happy.
- [49:15]
Will Krakauer
And keep your family happy. Although this year, I mean, absolutely, there has been. There was no better excuse to not be home on Christmas this year.
- [49:25]
Mark Turdo
That's right.
- [49:26]
Will Krakauer
Than the 250th anniversary of Washington crossing the Delaware.
- [49:31]
Mark Cyrak
I don't think we can express enough in this that, you know, this is really the four days as one large grand event is just not going to happen on a regular basis. The beauty is it is also across a weekend, which really sets everything up so nicely. This is the year to come and see everything from the Johnson Ferry skirmish the day before the crossing, through the crossing, the battles and just get that whole experience. Come and see it all this year.
- [50:00]
Mark Turdo
And Princeton was kind enough to move their anniversary event, but the other three days are on the 250th days themselves. Like we're. Friday is Christmas. That is the crossing. Saturday is the 26th, the day of Battle of Trenton. That's that day. It's anniversary. The skirmish, the Hessian and militia skirmish is the 24th. Like all much of this is happening on the anniversary days, which is also kind of cool.
- [50:26]
Mark Cyrak
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:27]
Will Krakauer
The follow up to that is there will be a celebration here at the battlefield on 3rd January, 2027. But that will be much more of a commemorative event as opposed to a force on force action like you'll see on the 27th. So of course we're going to want people to come out for that. You know, we're. We're gathering reenactors now for honor salutes, but that's going to be a bit more of the pontificating and celebrating. And then we're all going to go to the Yankee Doodle Tap room and we're done and just go to sleep after that.
- [51:03]
Mark Turdo
I'm just sleeping. January 1st forward. Somebody asked what's our favorite book about the crossing? 10 crucial days. I will say mine for the level of detail and the fact that he knows the landscape so well is Larry Kidder's 10 crucial days.
- [51:19]
Will Krakauer
Can't beat it. Yep. Kidders is. Is great. David Hackett Fisher's Washington's Crossing is of course worth its weight in gold. Just for the appendices in the back. Yeah, I mean, the. The narrative is good as well. It's great. It's good reading. But all of that information he has in the back of the book. Holy cow. I mean, it's worth its weight in gold.
- [51:44]
Mark Cyrak
Yeah.
- [51:45]
Mike
Yeah. Fishers is definitely a classic. Although I've been told Kidder's book corrects a lot of things that are inaccurate.
- [51:51]
Will Krakauer
There are a handful of things I have. Here's you my last fun. Princeton Fact is everybody thinks there's snow on the ground at Princeton because it's January and of course we had the nor'. Easter. Everybody forgets that it was pouring rain on January 1st into the morning of January 2nd. There is no more snow. So the ground is described as being spangled with an eerie hoar frost which touched every object. Fisher's book and Rick Atkinson's book say the ground has Snow at Princeton. Mr. Kidder does me honor.
- [52:29]
Mike
Very good. Mike, you have a question? I was just going to say William Straker's book on the crossing and the battle of Princeton is pretty good resource.
- [52:38]
Mark Cyrak
1898.
- [52:39]
Will Krakauer
If it's Stryker. Stryker is the granddaddy of the Ten Crucial Days history. I have one beef with Stryker. There is not a single. Yeah, there is not a single citation in his book, which is, of course, of the time that he wrote it. And he was interviewing descendants of people who had participated in the battle. So it is secondary and tertiary at best. But it's just so hard to believe
- [53:09]
Mike
him index in the back.
- [53:13]
Will Krakauer
Oh, he does. There's no question. And it's a useful resource.
- [53:16]
Mark Cyrak
I have the 1898 book here.
- [53:19]
Will Krakauer
Oh, sure. Actually, I'm almost positive everybody here does.
- [53:23]
Mark Cyrak
The beauty of is all of the information in the back, much like Fisher's, particularly the Hessian records, the German records that are no longer in existence due to World War II. That we get a lot of, you know, information about the Hessians and what happened to them. But.
- [53:40]
Mark Turdo
Yeah, but I think it also, while I agree with Will, without citations, everything is up for. For questioning. I really love that Stryker tried. Like he interviewed people. He went forth and looked at primary sources in a way that not everybody in that period did. And he was questioning things like as a model for the kind of work, I think he's really good.
- [54:01]
Will Krakauer
Yeah.
- [54:01]
Mark Turdo
Do I love everything he said? There's it's helpful to backstop him a little bit.
- [54:07]
Mike
Yeah. Trust but verify.
- [54:09]
Mark Turdo
Yeah, he did. He also said that the Hessians were not drunk. And I keep pointing them. I'm like, since 1898 it's been in print and people go, oh, I didn't miss that part in the book.
- [54:21]
Will Krakauer
They just wanted to see us win.
- [54:23]
Mark Turdo
Yeah, that's right.
- [54:24]
Mike
All right. Well, it sounds like you guys have a lot going on. I really appreciate you coming out tonight to talk about it a little bit and give us a heads up on what's happening for the 250th. It does sound like you got a great set of events, especially for the long weekend. But you can also it sounds like there's a lot to do even if people come on an off week when, when all the things aren't happening, because a lot of this stuff is going to be permanent additions to to what's out there. So I really appreciate all your work and thank you guys once again.
- [54:54]
Mark Cyrak
Thank you.
- [54:55]
Mark Turdo
Thanks for having. Thanks everybody for coming out.
- [54:57]
Podcast Host
Thanks again for joining us for our American Revolution Roundtable. I'd like to thank Alex Robb, Mark Syrac, Mark Turdo, and Will Krakauer for sharing their time and expertise with us about the things going on at their respective parks. If you'd like to learn more about the events happening that are celebrating the 250th of the 10 crucial days which will be celebrated between December 24th of this year through January 3rd of next year, please check out their website, which is included in the show notes at www.10CrucialDays250.org thanks again for joining us on the American Revolution podcast.
- [55:52]
Mark Cyrak
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