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Lindsey Graham
Hi, this is Lindsey Graham, host of American Scandal. Our back catalog has moved behind a paywall. Recent episodes remain free, but older ones will require a Wondery plus subscription. With Wondery, you get access to the full American Scandal archive ad free, plus early access to new seasons and more. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's January 29, 1986, at NASA's Marshall Space Flight center in Huntsville, Alabama. Outside the sprawling operations Support Center, Morton thiocall engineer Al MacDonald flashes his security badge to a guard and types in a code on a keypad to enter the building. It's been just over 24 hours since the space shuttle Challenger exploded, killing all seven astronauts on board. The public is demanding answers about what caused the disaster, which was witnessed by millions, including school children on live tv. But so far NASA has been tight lipped. The agency has issued statements saying that the cause of the explosion is still unknown, while simultaneously claiming that the unusually cold weather played no role. But McDonald has doubts. Just hours before the astronauts were strapped into the shuttle, McDonald and his fellow Thiokol engineers pleaded with NASA and executives at their own company to delay the launch. They presented data showing the thin rubber gasket O rings inside the joints of the shuttle. Solid rocket boosters were unsafe to use at anything below 50 degrees, but the decision makers chose to go forward with the launch when the temperature was barely above freezing and the Challenger was destroyed in a fireball just 73 seconds after liftoff. Now, as director of Thiokol's rocket booster program, McDonnell has been assigned to the team responsible for figuring out if it was indeed the O rings or any other component of the boosters that caused the tragedy. And he just received word that the team has obtained a crucial piece of evidence new high resolution film of the explosion arriving at the door of the investigation's high security war room. McDonald flashes his security badge again and steps inside. The other engineers on the failure analysis team are seated in front of a large projector screen. McDonnell turns to one of them, a NASA rocket engineer. I haven't missed the screening, have I? No, you're right on time. The new footage was just flown in from Houston and it's different from what they've been showing on TV. This footage hasn't been seen by anyone outside NASA. It's from a high speed 70 millimeter movie camera mounted just a few miles north of the launch pad. Hit the lights and we'll all take a look. McDonnell flips off the light switch and takes a seat as the footage rolls. McDonnell leans forward in his seat, eyes fixed on the shuttle's two rocket boosters. He watches as the booster's engines ignite, kicking out trails of white smoke as Challenger slowly lifts off the launch paddle. Hey, you guys see that? Just after ignition, puff of gray smoke. It kicks out from a nozzle joint near the bottom of the right hand booster. Yeah, you're right. That's strange. Roll it back. I want to see the ignition again. This time, can you. Can you play it in slow motion? I want to get a real close look. McDonald rises from his chair and stands with his face just feet away from the screen. A few frames in, something catches his eye. Yeah. Just after liftoff, more puffs. They travel upward toward the nose while the smoke from the engines is shooting down toward the ground. What could cause that? Based on the dark color of the smoke, it must have been rubber from the O ring. Oh God. The boosters failed before the shuttle even left the pad. Those poor souls. They never had a chance. McDonnell turns away from the screen. This is the first tangible piece of evidence that his team's boosters caused the explosion. He finds himself wracked with guilt. Even though he tried to prevent the launch, it was the very equipment he oversees that seems to have caused the Challenger to explode. American scandal is sponsored by Noom, a leader in behavior change. Weight loss. But now they offer Noom GLP1, combining their proven weight loss program with proven medication so you can lose weight and keep it off. Because Noom doesn't just give you access to meds, it helps you build healthy habits so you can lose weight and keep it off. Noom's app features protein tracking so you can ensure you're getting the right nutrients and fitness classes so you can keep the muscle while losing fat. Noom GLP1 starts at $149 and is delivered to your door in just seven days. Start your GLP1 journey today at Noom.com that's N-O-O-M.com Noom the Smart Way to lose weight. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy, or quality. From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American Scandal. From the moment NASA first introduced the reusable space shuttle in 1981, the US government pressured the agency to offset the cost of the program with an increasingly rapid launch schedule, working around the clock to refurbish the shuttle's orbiter and rocket boosters to be used in subsequent flights. But as NASA raced to keep up. Flaws in the shuttle's design emerged. One of the most concerning issues was the synthetic rubber O rings that sealed the joints of the rocket boosters that propelled the shuttle from the launch pad into orbit. On multiple occasions. When the boosters were examined, post launch engineers discovered that the O rings had come perilously close to failing, and they seemed to be less reliable in colder weather. So when word started to spread that the weather forecast for the Challenger's next launch predicted sub freezing temperatures, a chorus of engineers at the company that made the boosters, Morton Thiokol, begged NASA to delay. They were ultimately overruled. NASA pushed forward. And on the morning of January 28, 1986, the Challenger exploded less than two minutes into its flight, killing all seven astronauts on board, including teacher Christa McAuliffe, who'd been slated to be the first US civilian in space. While the public mourned the fallen astronauts, NASA issued vague assurances that they were investigating the cause of the explosion. But before long, both the press and the White House were growing increasingly distrustful of the space agency's ability to investigate itself. So on February 3rd, President Ronald Reagan announced that he was launching an independent commission to look into the Challenger disaster. And what the commission learned was even more damning than the public could have suspected. This is episode four, what really Happened. It's February 6th, 1986, nine days after the Challenger disaster. Inside NASA's Marshall Space Flight center in Huntsville, Alabama, a budget analyst named Richard Cook flips on the TV in his office. Today is the first televised hearing of the presidential commission investigating the disaster, and Cook doesn't want to miss a minute of it. In the year leading up to the explosion, Cook worked closely with engineers at Morton Thiokol, the contractor responsible for the shuttle's rocket boosters, and he learned a lot about the problems they discovered with O rings. But when he relayed that information in a memo to his superiors, Cook's concerns were brushed aside. And in the days following the explosion, he's watched in dismay as NASA officials have tried to direct the public's attention away from the rocket boosters as a possible cause. That's why Cook was heartened to hear that the official inquiry was being handed to a commission outside of NASA's control, and that it featured a number of impressive names, including Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon. Sally Ride, the first American woman in space, and Richard Feynman, the Nobel Prize winning physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project. But now, as Cook begins to watch the hearing he quickly sees that the commission's chairman, William Rogers, is in over his head. Rogers resume includes stints as both US Secretary of State and Attorney General. So he knows how to handle an investigation. But the moment he begins asking questions, his lack of scientific and engineering knowledge becomes apparent. Rogers also seems to be showing extraordinary deference to the NASA officials who testify. He allows some questions to go completely unanswered and even apologizes to NASA for not giving them enough time to prepare their testimony. Then Cook hears something that truly shocks him. Judson Lovinggood, a NASA manager from Cook's own office, is called to the stand. And when he's questioned about the joints in the rocket boosters, Lovinggood says that although NASA was aware of some cases where the primary O rings experienced damage, they had never seen any erosion in the secondary backup O rings. But Cook knows this is a lie, because in the memo he wrote, he clearly explained that the backup O rings had been partially burned away during launches on several occasions. So to Cook, it appears that NASA has gone beyond evasiveness, that they're attempting a full blown cover up. Cook opens the drawer to his desk and finds a copy of his memo tucked into a folder. And as he looks it over, he ponders what to do next. In his hand is a document that could change the course of the investigation and bring the truth to light. But handing it over himself could mean the end of his career at NASA. So to get this information out to the public, Cook will need to do it in a way that doesn't leave his fingerprints on it. And he'll need to do it fast. After the first hearing of the Rogers Commission, Richard Cook places a call to the New York Times under the assumed name of Richard Lee. He leaves a message with a newsroom clerk offering to provide previously unseen information about the Challenger from inside. NASA Times journalist Philip Boffi picks up the tip. But when Boffi opens up the NASA staff directory, he finds no record of a Richard Lee. Still, Boffi is intrigued, so he calls the mysterious tipster back. On the call, Richard Lee quickly confesses that his real name is Richard Cook and that he has some documents that could shed light on the Challenger explosion. Boffi convinces Cook to meet him in person. And the following day, Cook arrives at the Washington, D.C. bureau of the New York Times. Approaching the front door with a briefcase in hand, Cook can feel his palms begin to sweat. He pauses to look over his shoulder, making sure nobody from NASA is watching as he slips inside the building. And when he does, the receptionist directs Cook to Boffy's Office where he finds the reporter seated behind his desk. Hey, Mr. Lee. Thanks for coming down to meet me. You're. You're a brave man. I don't know about that. Right. Right now I'm scared to death that someone will see me here. I understand. I'll try to keep this short and show you the back way out when we're done. Now, I take it you have something for me in that briefcase? Yes, I have a few documents. Cook slides his briefcase onto the desk and opens the combination lock. The first one is a memo I wrote to my superiors at NASA July of last year. And as you can see there in the second paragraph, I clearly state that in some of the joints of the shuttle's rocket boosters, not only was the primary O ring display destroyed, but the secondary ring was also damaged as well. And you think these O rings were the likely cause of the explosion? I do. And frankly, it looks a lot like NASA suspects this as well. But in yesterday's hearing, I watched a manager from the Shuttle projects office testify that no one had ever seen any damage to the secondary O ring. It's just a flat out lie. And your memo would appear to be proof of that. Yeah, and I've got more. There's a paper trail going back several years showing time and again that NASA was informed about the serious risk posed by faulty O rings. You can see it in this list of critical items from 1982 that they could lead to, quote, a loss of vehicle, mission and crew. Wow, you really brought the goods here. I'd like to get this into the Sunday paper, but I have to ask a favor. What? I need to put your name in the story. We don't have to say you're my source, but I need to be able to quote you from your memoir and your name as the author. Cook sits back in his chair. I don't know. If you use my name, NASA's gonna connect the dots. If that happens, I'm gonna lose my job. You have the documents. Isn't that enough? Well, without a name attached, it would be easy to cast doubts on the significance of this memo. NASA could say it was written by some random guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. But with a name, your name, it would be legitimate, airtight. It could change the course of the investigation. And isn't that what you want? Cook pauses to think it through. He knows it's a huge risk letting his name be associated with the story. But then his mind drifts to the seven astronauts who were killed on The Challenger. He thinks of their families, and they're right to know what happened. So, with a deep sigh, Cooke agrees to let Boffi use his name. On Sunday, February 9, Philip Boffe publishes his story in the New York Times, quoting extensively from Cook's memo that warned NASA about the faulty O rings. Within hours, the article lands in the hands of Commissioner Chairman William Rogers, and he is furious that he had to learn about the memo from the press and not NASA themselves. Rogers schedules an emergency meeting to be held the following day, and unlike the previous hearing, this one will be closed to the public. Rogers hopes a more private setting will allow him to get more candid answers from NASA. And only hours later, Thiokol's Al McDonald receives an urgent call from his company asking him to fly to Washington, D.C. to be on hand to answer any technical questions about the boosters in tomorrow's now closed door hearing. So the very next day, McDonald finds his way into the Old Executive Office Building in Washington and takes a seat in the back of the room. As the meeting begins, Chairman Rogers makes his frustration clear. He announces that he's disappointed about the leaked memo, but he hopes it serves as a warning to NASA. The truth will come out one way or another, so they might as well tell him everything they know now. But as the meeting progresses, McDonnell can see that the warning has had little effect on the NASA representatives in the room. They keep sticking to their talking points, insisting that they had every reason to believe the O rigs were safe. Rocket booster project manager Larry Molloy is among those who testify for NASA. And when he's asked about the emergency teleconference with Morton Thiokhol the night before launch, he explicitly says that everyone on the call concluded that low temperatures would not be a problem. McDonald can't believe what he's hearing. He clearly remembers a dozen Thiokol engineers, himself included, unique, unanimously recommending against the launch. And he also remembers Malloy pressuring Thiokol's executives to overrule their own engineers. So MacDonald raises his hand to correct the record, but nobody seems to notice. And as Malloy continues to dominate the meeting, Macdonald only grows increasingly frustrated. Finally, he stands and waves his arms in the air to get the commissioner's attention. But that doesn't work either, and it appears that Rogers is beginning to wrap up the meeting. Desperate, MacDonald walks toward the commissioners on stage, demanding to be heard. All eyes in the room turn toward MacDonald, and his hands begin trembling. He realizes that what he's about to say could cost some of the most powerful men at NASA their careers. But there's no turning back now. So in a quiet voice, he explains that he was the one who organized the teleconference the night before the launch, and he was sitting next to Malloy when Thayakol engineers faxed over data showing that it was clearly a risk to launch in cold weather. In fact, the engineers insisted that they not launch in anything under 53 degrees. A member of the commission asks what the actual temperature was on the morning of the launch. Lloyd checks his notes and replies it was 29 degrees. The room goes silent as McDonnell turns and walks back to his seat, avoiding eye contact. No one asked him to speak. And as he settles himself into his chair, he realizes what he just did may be seen as an unwelcome outburst at best. But a moment later, Chairman Rogers asks McDonnell to rise again and this time to speak louder. McDonald stands, this time with more confidence. And as he unspools the story of the teleconference the night before launch, he goes into more detail, noting that the company's executives had also recommended against launching, but that they'd reversed their position under pressure from Malloy. The commissioners are all clearly taken aback by this. This is the first time they've heard about anyone changing their minds about the launch. Chairman Rogers asks McDonald to provide any documentation he has from the teleconference that he expects to hear testimony about it from Thiokol's executives in future hearings. So as McDonald returns to his seats, still trembling from his moment in the spotlight, he can see Malloy and the other NASA leaders staring at him. He knows that the fallout from his revelations could be severe, but he feels he owes it to the late crew of the Challenger to make sure the truth behind this tragedy comes out. American scandal is sponsored by acorns. Every new year, I look back at my financial decisions from the past year, and let's be honest, it's not always a pretty picture in my business. I took some risks that didn't pan out in my personal life. I might have splurged a little too much or didn't remain vigilant as subscription fees piled up. You know, the fee. And if saving and investing is a goal of yours, well, I guess it wasn't this year's goal, was it? But how about next year? ACORNS makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids, and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. ACORNS will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. Head to acorns.com scandal or download the Acorns app to start SA and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 2 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com Scandal he was hip.
- [19:01]
Richard Cook
Hop'S biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune and the music industry.
- [19:07]
Lindsey Graham
The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean.
- [19:12]
Richard Cook
Dennis Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about.
- [19:19]
Lindsey Graham
Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party. So yeah, that's what's up.
- [19:23]
Richard Cook
But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution.
- [19:38]
Lindsey Graham
I was up and I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.
- [19:49]
Richard Cook
From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Pl.
- [20:13]
Lindsey Graham
Thanks to Morton Thiokol Engineer Al MacDonald, the Rogers Commission now knows that NASA executives were aware of the risks of launching in cold weather and pressured Thiokol to greenlight the Challenger launch anyway. McDonald's revelations cast a shadow of doubt over the testimony given by NASA representatives, and that night, Commissioner member Richard Feynman decides he's no longer going to sit back and let NASA continue to cloud the public's perception of what happened. Feynman is a Nobel Prize winning physicist, but he's also a teacher, lecturer and best selling author. He's known for his ability to break down complicated scientific ideas into language that's easily digestible for the public. And with the Commission's next public hearing scheduled for the following day, Feynman prepares to do just that. The meeting begins just after 10am on February 11, 1986. Feynman takes his seat on the stage of the auditorium alongside his fellow commission members. NASA Project manager Larry Malloy returns to the witness stand to deliver a presentation about the solid rocket boosters. For nearly 90 minutes, Feynman watches him pace back and forth, moving between a miniature model of the shuttle and a handful of other exhibits, explaining in detail how the booster's engines are manufactured and refurbished. But Feynman is unimpressed. What he really wants to hear is a simple explanation of how the cold temperatures at launch may have affected the O rings inside of Challenger's boosters. And he gets the impression that Malloy is trying to obscure that crucial topic by burying the commission in unrelated technical details. So when the commission breaks for a recess, Feynman approaches Rogers and gets the chairman's permission to conduct a brief experiment. After the break, Rogers concedes, and Feynman starts to prepare. He takes a small 1 inch sample of an O ring that's been provided to the commission for the inquiry. Then he pours a fresh glass of ice water into a Styrofoam cup and takes a small metal clamp out of his pocket. He folds the O ring over several times, then locks the folds in place with the clamp and dunks the whole thing into the ice water. And as the hearing resumes, Feynman makes his move. Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I'd like to share something with Mr. Malloy. With all eyes on him, Feynman pulls the clamp and the O ring sample out of the styrofoam cup. Now, Mr. Malloy, during our recess, I took this stuff that I got out of your seal and I put it in ice water. I discovered something very interesting. When you put some pressure on it, like I did with this clamp, and then release that pressure, it doesn't stretch back. In other words, there's no resilience in this material when it's at a temperature of 32 degrees. I believe that has some significance. Significance for our problem. Feynman passes the hardened O ring material around the stage for his fellow commissioners to examine as he continues to question Malloy. Now, we've established in previous hearings that if the rubber is hardened, it might not expand to fill the joints of the booster properly. Is that right? Low temperature increases the time that would be required for the O ring to fill the seal of the joint. Yes, sir. So was there some kind of temperature limit on when you would say a seal was safe enough to fly? Well, right now we're running extensive testing to understand the response of the seal under the specific conditions during the launch of the Challenger. But the specification for the material says it will operate anywhere from minus 30 to 500 degrees. So you were certain it would work fine all the way down to minus 30 degrees. Thiol did present some data indicating a possible reduction in resilience if the temperature was down to 20 or 25 degrees degrees. But that was lower than what we had at launch. Now, just to be certain, we are running control tests under the specific conditions of the launch to understand it better, I guess. I'm not really concerned about tests you're running after the explosion. I just want to know, before the launch, from information that was available, was it fully appreciated everywhere that this seal would become unsatisfactory at some temperature? Yes, sir. But we felt under the conditions we had on launch day, the seal would function appropriately. And that was the final judgment. Clearly, that was your final judgment. But you're saying none of the engineers at thy call thought differently? Well, some engineers at th all suggested that the shuttle shouldn't be operated below any temperature that had been seen on previous lines. All right. Thank you. I have no further questions. Feynman leans back in his chair, satisfied he's done his job and hopeful that when he watches tonight's news coverage of the hearing, he'll find that his simple demonstration with the O Ring has reached the public as well. For the next 48 hours, video of Richard Feynman's impromptu O Ring experiment gets replayed by news networks all across the country. Through his Ice cup demonstration, the public begins to understand that the O Rings may have caused the explosion. And through Feynman's interrogation of Larry Molloy, they also learned that the explosion may have been preventable. In the wake of this breakthrough, more Thiokol executives and engineers are asked to testify before the commission. But two of those engineers, Al MacDonald and Roger Beaujolais, grow increasingly paranoid as their scheduled appearances approach. Both men fought hard to prevent Challenger's launch, and they have evidence that could prove damning to both NASA and their own bosses at the company. But they worry about the retaliation they might face if they go public about their experiences. In the days following the disaster, Beaujolais was ordered by Thiokol to turn over all documents relevant to the launch. But instead of following those orders, Beaujolais hid some documents in a locked drawer in his desk. Now, fearing for the safety of those files and even his own life, Beaujolais quietly retrieves the documents and mails a duplicate set to his wife. And as he awaits his chance to testify, he begins sleeping with the original copies underneath his pillow in his hotel room. As for MacDonald, he spends the next few days preparing detailed notes about everything he remembers from the pre launch process. And leaves a copy with a trusted colleague. And when he's officially called to testify on February 14, MacDonald's testimony lands like a bombshell. He recounts the late night teleconference in detail and walks the commission through the charts the engineers presented to NASA. McDonnell tells the commission that he was so vigorously opposed to the launch that he refused to sign his name to the recommendation, forcing Thiokol executive Joseph Kilminster to sign it in his place. Following this hearing, MacDonald becomes something of a national hero, and commission Chairman William Rogers is so moved by McDonald's testimony that he decides to pivot the focus of the investigation. He wants to determine not just what is to blame for the disaster, but who. Up until now, the Rogers commission has treated NASA officials as partners in the inquiry. But now Rogers bars participation from anyone involved in the Challenger launch. And when the next open door hearing is called to order on the morning of February 25th, there's a palpable shift in the tenor of the proceedings. And as Roger Beaujolais waits his turn to be called to the standard, he watches his boss, Thiokol Senior Vice President Jerry Mason, squirm under the commission's adversarial questions. Armed with information they learned from McDonnell, the commissioners hammer Mason about the teleconference the night before. Launch astronaut Sally Ride and physicist Richard Feynman are especially forceful, homing in on how Mason came to recommend the launch despite dire warnings from his engineers. Beaujolais feels mixed emotions about this scene. He's saddened to see his company's failings exposed like this in a public setting. But he's also gratified to see Mason, the man who refused to listen to Beaujolais warnings time and again, finally getting his comeuppance. When Mason's testimony is concluded, Beaujolais is called next. As he takes his seat on the stage, he feels his nerves getting the best of him. But then Beaujolais takes a deep breath, and he thinks back to the days leading up to the launch. He remembers all the times he pleaded with Thiokol's management to do the right thing, put the safety of the astronauts first. And then he decides that if his testimony destroys his company or costs him his job, then that's a price worth paying for the truth. Beaujolais begins his testimony by recounting his trips to Cape Canaveral in the years leading up to the launch, where he personally inspected the shuttle's spent rocket boosters after they were recovered from the Ocean Post launch. He explains the damage he documented in the booster's O rings, and he shares photos showing how the damage became more severe in the year leading up to the disaster. Then Beaujolais testifies about the teleconference the night before the launch. Referring to notes he took immediately after the call, he tells the commission that he believed Thiokol's engineers made an overwhelming case that launching in temperatures that cold could not be considered safe. But NASA's Larry Molloy seemed to reverse the agency's safety policy on a whimsical Beaujolais notes that Molloy explicitly stated it was Beaujolais burden to prove the O rings would fail, rather than NASA's burden to prove that they were safe. Next, Beaujolais recounts the poll taken by Mason where the Thiokol executives voted on whether or not to recommend a launch. Beaujolais explains that Mason excluded the engineers and pushed his fellow executives to make a business decision, not an engineering one. As he talks, Beaujolais looks into the faces of the dozen commissioners across the stage, trying to measure their reaction. He narrows in on Commissioner Neil Armstrong and sees the former astronaut's lips purse seething with anger. It's a striking moment for Beaujolais, watching the first man on the moon boiling with contempt for the very agency that made him a household name. And as Beaujolais testimony nears its conclusion, Chairman Rogers asks him to read aloud from a memo Beaujolais had written to his bosses in July of 1985, six months before the disaster. Beaujolais nods. He's been waiting for this moment. Of all the documents he locked away in his desk in the days after the explosion, he considers this memo the most damning. The room goes quiet as Beaujolais reads the memo in its entirety. In it, he begs his bosses for more time and resources to redesign the O rings. He writes that if shuttle launches continue with the O rings as currently designed, then the result could be a catastrophe of the highest order, including loss of human life. Coming to the end of the memo, Beaujolais reads, it is my honest and very real fear that if we do not take immediate action and dedicate a team to solve the problem with the O rings, then we stand in jeopardy of losing a flight. With Beaujolais testimony now concluded, he stands and leaves the stage and takes a seat to watch his fellow engineers give their account. And as he listens from his seat in the crowd, Beaujolais feels a weight lift from his shoulders. He's relieved to know that the documents he had gone to such great lengths to protect are now part of the public record. Now he just hopes that NASA and Thiokol will do the right thing and hold people accountable for the decisions that cost those seven astronauts their lives.
- [31:20]
C
I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be Finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad free on Wondery plus. Join Wondery plus plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify.
- [32:32]
Lindsey Graham
As the Rogers Commission hearings stretch into March of 1986, NASA continues working to recover Challenger from the Atlantic Ocean. The effort is led by Robert Crippen, the astronaut who piloted Columbia on NASA's first ever space shuttle mission. Heartbroken by the deaths of seven of his fellow astronauts, Crippen volunteered shortly after the explosion, looking for a constructive way to deal with his grief. And their recovery is a massive undertaking. Dozens of ships, planes and helicopters from NASA, the Navy, and the Coast Guard scour a vast expanse of ocean looking for pieces of debris. Each recovered piece is laid out meticulously in a warehouse near the launch site in Cape Canaveral. And as NASA engineers begin to puzzle the Challenger back together, they look for definitive evidence of what caused the explosion. But NASA is searching for more than just mechanical debris. They are also eager to recover the bodies of the fallen astronauts to bring closure for their loved ones. And on the afternoon of March 7th, a recovery diver named Mike McAllister makes a grim discovery. McAllister has been working on the Challenger salvage operation from the first hours after the disaster. It's been a long and often tedious process, using sonar to scan the ocean floor and then diving down to retrieve even the smallest pieces of debris. Today, McAllister and his partner, Terry Bailey, are searching a new area, a small section of The Atlantic, about 18 miles northeast of the launch site. Sonar on their recovery vessel recently picked up what looks to be a large metallic object, so McAllister is hoping to find something significant. The two men swim along the bottom of the ocean, 90ft underwater, dressed in black wetsuits and goggles and scuba tanks strapped to their backs. McAllister carries a bright orange inflatable buoy used to mark debris sites. Bailey has a sonar gun. Together, they move slowly, struggling to navigate through the cold and turbulent water. They only have about 10ft of visibility, so just ahead of him, McAllister barely is able to see Bailey aiming his sonar gun at the ocean floor, searching for wreckage. After a long while, Bailey looks back at McAllister and shakes his head no. He's not picking up anything. Then he points to his watch, asking how much time they have left on their tanks. McAllister checks the watch on his wrist and holds up 10 fingers, indicating 10 minutes left. McAllister uses a hand signal to suggest they do one more sweep of the area, and Bailey nods in agreement. McAllister follows behind Bailey, but before long, he sees Bailey point, indicating he's picked up something on sonar. Through the murky water, McAllister begins to see small chunks of shiny metal and wiring sticking out of the sand beneath him. It's definitely a debris field from the challenger. Then McAllister sees his partner stop swimming and begin pointing frantically at a larger piece of wreckage. For a moment, McAllister can't figure out what's wrong. Then he's able to look closer and sees it. A pair of white legs bobbing slowly in the current. McAllister swims ahead of Bailey and quickly realizes that what he's looking at is the bottom half of a spacesuit. He knows there's nobody inside it. The spacesuits weren't worn by the astronauts during the flight, but they were stored nearby in the crew compartment for use in spacewalks. McAllister turns back to his partner, but Bailey is nowhere to be found. McAllister figures he must have been so spooked that he headed back to the surface. Checking his watch, McAllister sees he's only got six minutes left in this tank. He needs to work fast. He frantically ties the marker buoy to a chunk of nearby wreckage with a long nylon string. He unspools it, then releases it, letting the buoy float to the surface to mark the location. Then McAllister turns upward and begins his ascent. He's relieved that he didn't actually come into contact with the remains of an astronaut. But he knows what that spacesuit means. They found the crew compartment and that the astronauts must be nearby. The day after Mike McAllister and Terry Bailey's discovery, the recovery team begins pulling the astronauts bodies from the ocean. From there they're transported to an Air Force Force facility where pathologists begin performing autopsies on the crew, hoping to determine the definitive cause of death. Meanwhile, more equipment from the shuttle is recovered, including computers and audio recording systems from inside the orbiter. And as these components are examined, investigators make a shocking discovery. In the moments after the explosion, one of the astronauts could be heard saying oh over the orbiter's internal communication system. And three of their emergency oxygen packs were switched on as they fell toward the ocean. This is the first evidence that some and perhaps all of the astronauts actually survived the explosion and might have been alive for the full two and a half minutes before the crew cabin made impact with water. This discovery leads to speculation that the astronauts may have survived the disaster if there had been an emergency escape system installed on the shuttle. But years prior such a system was deemed unnecessary and cut from the shuttle's design in a push by NASA to make the craft lighter, more efficient and able to carry larger payloads. Weeks later, In June of 1986, William Rogers delivers his commission's final report to the White House. And it is damning. There is much blame to go around, but NASA's Larry Molloy receives the harshest criticism. The commission cites Malloy's years long failure to take the O ring issue seriously or to report what he knew about it to his superiors as primary contributors to the disaster. Malloy is also criticized for his effort to reverse the Thiokol engineer's recommendation that the Challenger launch be postponed due to cold weather. Soon after the report's release, Malloy resigns from NASA. The commission's final report also has repercussions at Morton Thiokol. Jerry Mason, the Thiokol executive who ignored the warnings from his engineers, takes an early retirement from the company. And several other executives from the rocket booster program are reassigned to different divisions. But rank and file Thiokol employees also suffer from the Challenger disaster. With the shuttle program now on indefinite hiatus, 200 Thiokal workers are laid off and more than a thousand are moved to part time. The engineers who tried to stop the launch are treated as heroes by the American public but become pariahs within their own company. They're seen as turncoats and blamed for the mass layoffs of their colleagues. Roger Beaujolais takes everything especially hard. Not only does he find himself ostracized by his colleagues, but he still blames himself for not doing more to stop the launch. He suffers from nightmares and is diagnosed with Post Traumatic stress disorder. Soon after, he leaves Thiokol and never works in aerospace again. Joseph Kilminster, one of the Thiokol executives who changed his launch recommendation the night before the disaster, is left equally haunted. One evening in the fall of 1986, he's in the living room of his home in Utah, playing host to his old friend Brian Russell, a Thiocol engineer. For now, both men's jobs have been spared, though Kilminster has been transferred to the company's automotive division. Still, Kilminster can't stop thinking about some of the employees under him who've lost their jobs, not to mention the fallen astronauts and their families. Oz Kilminster leans back in his recliner and begins staring out the window, watching the sunset over the mountains. Russell checks in on him. So, Joe, how's Automotive? It's all right, I guess. I mean, I'm lucky to have any job, right? After all that's happened. Do miss seeing you and the other guys from the booster plant. Well, you're not missing much. Honestly, I wish I was let go. I dread going in every morning. It's nothing but dirty looks all the time. Me and the other engineers who testified, we've. We're calling ourselves the Five Leopards. Oh man, you don't deserve that. You guys did the right thing. That launch should never have happened and you said so. And then all you did is tell the truth. I'm sure the history books will call you heroes. Not me, though. What do you mean by that? You see the graffiti on the bridge outside town? One that says Morton Thaya call murderers. Yeah. They're talking about me. No, they're not. I don't think that's true. You were with me in that conference room the night before the launch. When Mason took that poll. He told us to make a business decision, not an engineering decision. I never should have listened to him. I should have been thinking about the astronauts. Oh, come on, Joe. Mason put you in a terrible spot. You weren't the only one who voted to launch. But all it would have taken was one vote to stop it. I could have saved those astronauts lives. And then I was the one who had to sign the recommendation. In 100 years, people are going to look at my signature on that letter. And that's how I'll be remembered. A guy who made the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. Kilminster puts his head in his hands and begins to sob. A moment later, he feels Russell's hand on his shoulder, trying to comfort him. But there's nothing his friend can do to take away the guilt. In the wake of the Challenger disaster, NASA paused all shuttle launches for nearly three years, and during that time the agency made some significant changes. The joints of the rocket boosters were reinforced to prevent the type of gas leak that caused the explosion. An escape system was added to the orbiter, allowing astronauts to exit the shuttle and parachute to safety in an emergency. And to reduce the number of missions, the shuttles were no longer used to carry commercial satellites into orbit. Space shuttle launches resumed in September 1988 and had a successful safety record until 2003. That year, the original shuttle Columbia broke up during re entry, killing its entire crew of seven astronauts. Following that disaster, President George W. Bush announced the shuttle program would be retired after it had completed its final mission, helping to complete assembly of the International space station. On July 21, 2011, the shuttle Atlantis touched down at Kennedy Space center in Florida, marking the end of the space shuttle program. All told, the space shuttle fleet conducted 133 successful missions over the course of three decades, but the program never quite achieved NASA's vision of making journeys into space as safe and routine as commercial air travel. Today, most manned spaceflight is conducted by private companies like Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin, and SpaceX. But in 2026, NASA hopes to return to one of its former glories, putting astronauts back on the moon for the first time in more than 50 years. From Wonder E this is episode 4 of the Challenger Disaster from American Skin. On our next episode, I speak with Steve lechart, co director and producer of the Netflix document series the Final Flight. If you're enjoying American Scandal, you can unlock exclusive seasons on Wondery. Binge new seasons first and listen completely ad free when you join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a survey@wondery.com survey if you'd like to learn more about the Challenger disaster, we recommend the books Challenger by Adam higginbotham, the Burning Blue by Kevin Cook, and the Final Flight, Available on Netflix, this episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Christian Paraga Sound design by Gabriel Gould Music by Lindsey Graham. This this episode is written by Corey Metcalfe. Edited by Emma Cortlandt Fact checking by Alyssa Jung Perry produced by John Reed Managing producer Joe Florentino Senior producers Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman Development by Stephanie Jens. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marshall Louie and Aaron O'Flaherty. For wonder.