Quiz Show Rigging | The Pressure Cooker | 5

Summary

American Scandal: Quiz Show Rigging | The Pressure Cooker | Episode 5 Summary

Release Date: April 15, 2025
Host: Lindsey Graham
Guests: Howard Blumenthal and Bob Bowden
Organization: National Archives of Game Show History

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Introduction

In the fifth episode of American Scandal, host Lindsey Graham delves into one of television's most notorious controversies: the rigging of 1950s quiz shows, with a particular focus on the show "21." Joined by Howard Blumenthal, a longtime TV producer and co-founder of the National Archives of Game Show History, and Bob Bowden, executive producer of Funny You Should Ask, Graham explores the intricate dynamics that led to the scandal, its aftermath, and its lasting impact on American television.

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The Rise of "21" and the Inception of Controversy

Howard Blumenthal provides a personal connection to the scandal, detailing how his father became involved with the production company Barry and Enright, which was behind "21." Initially hired due to his expertise in merchandising, Howard's father was later assigned as an operations manager, overseeing the smooth running of various game shows, including "21."

Bob Bowden traces the origins of quiz shows to radio in the late 1930s and 1940s, highlighting their transition to television in the late 1940s. He notes that game shows were favored for their low production costs and broad audience appeal. However, as prizes grew more substantial in the 1950s, so did the pressure to maintain high ratings, setting the stage for unethical practices.

Notable Quote:

"When television began in the late '40s, one of the obvious genres to program was game shows. They were cheap to produce, easy to mount, appealed to a large sector of the audience." – Bob Bowden [07:03]

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Behind the Scenes: Production Pressures and Ethical Dilemmas

The host and guests discuss the demanding environment created by producers Dan Enright and host Jack Barry. Howard describes Dan Enright as a difficult yet visionary producer who could both inspire and frustrate his team. Bob echoes this sentiment, emphasizing Enright's dual nature—generous yet formidable, and hinting at his struggles post-scandal.

The episode highlights the intense pressure to boost ratings, leading to the manipulation of game outcomes. "21" initially struggled with poor ratings, prompting Enright and Barry to employ unethical tactics to make the show more exciting, which ultimately backfired as suspicions arose about the authenticity of the contests.

Notable Quote:

"They recognized that the show didn't work. So the really solution was to take it off the air. It was wrong." – Howard Blumenthal [24:12]

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The Scandal Unfolds: Public Betrayal and Media Outrage

As "21" gained popularity, doubts mounted about the legitimacy of its competitions. The episode details how discrepancies in scoring and unanswered questions led to public skepticism. When these concerns became widespread, host Jack Barry publicly denied any rigging, a decision rooted in loyalty to Dan Enright and the production team.

Bob Bowden discusses the profound impact of the scandal on American culture, describing it as a "dark day for television and a dark day for American culture." The revelation that beloved contestants like Charles Van Doren were part of the deception shattered public trust.

Notable Quote:

"It was an enormous betrayal of the American public. They believed that the people who were smart on television were really smart. And when they found out that the answers had been given to them, that was enormous shock." – Bob Bowden [19:29]

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Aftermath and Legacy: Rebuilding and Regulatory Response

Following the scandal, Dan Enright and Jack Barry faced exile from the U.S. and relocated to Canada, where they eventually rebuilt their careers, producing successful shows like "Joker's Wild" and reviving "Tic Tac Toe." Howard shares how his father was brought in to produce the final episode of "21," a task he approached with reluctance, understanding the show's impending demise.

Bob explains the long-term effects of the scandal, including federal regulations that made quiz show rigging a punishable offense. These changes aimed to restore authenticity and trust in television competitions. Today, game show producers emphasize integrity, ensuring that outcomes are legitimate and that the public remains confident in the fairness of these programs.

Notable Quote:

"After the Senate subcommittee hearings, it was determined that quiz show rigging was a federal offense and that anyone who participated in deceiving the viewing public in the context of what was considered to be a legitimate quiz show would be subject to a significant fine and even time in federal prison." – Bob Bowden [32:27]

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Modern Reflections: Perception and Integrity in Today's Game Shows

In the concluding segments, Bob Bowden reflects on how contemporary game show producers view the scandals. He asserts that the legacy of the 1950s scandals serves as a reminder of the importance of maintaining integrity. Today's shows are designed to be transparent and fair, distancing themselves from the deceit that tainted early television.

Howard adds that while the public may not be fully aware of the historical context, the rigorous standards and regulations in place today prevent similar scandals. He underscores the value of authentic entertainment, where the thrill comes from genuine competition rather than manufactured drama.

Notable Quote:

"Game shows as an art form are happy places. They're places for celebration and excitement. Yeah, a little bit of drama thrown in from time to time. But it's got to be real." – Bob Bowden [33:52]

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Conclusion

This episode of American Scandal provides a comprehensive examination of one of television's earliest and most significant scandals. Through the insights of Howard Blumenthal and Bob Bowden, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the pressures that led to unethical practices in the game show industry, the resulting public backlash, and the measures taken to rebuild trust. The legacy of the quiz show scandals serves as a cautionary tale, emphasizing the enduring need for integrity in entertainment.

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Additional Resources:

• American Scandal episodes available on Wondery+
• National Archives of Game Show History at the Strong Museum of Play, Rochester, New York

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Hi, this is Lindsey Graham, host of American Scandal. Our back catalog has moved behind a paywall. Recent episodes remain free, but older ones will require a Wondery plus subscription. With Wondery, you get access to the full American Scandal Archive ad free, plus early access to new seasons and more. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Foreign.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm Lindsey Graham and this is American Scandal. When The Quiz Show 21 started airing on NBC in 1956, it was not rigged yet. But the ratings were so poor that the sponsor, Geritol, put host Jack Berry and producer Dan Enright on notice. Make it more exciting or else. Two years later, 21 was a hit. But it was also embroiled in a growing controversy over whether TV quiz shows, which purported to show everyday people engaged in real contests of knowledge and skill, were actually all scripted and staged. 21 was not the only quiz show revealed to be at least partially rigged, but it became the most infamous, largely because it had the best known champion in Charles Van Doren. Charming, articulate and charismatic, Van Doren became a popular media figure in his own right and then the face of a scandal that changed the way Americans watched television. One of my guests today is Howard Blumenthal, a longtime TV producer and co founder of the National Archives of Game Show History. His father, a TV producer himself, worked on 21, and when Dan Enright and other producers implicated in the scandal left the show, it fell to him to produce the final episode. Also joining me is the other co founder of the National Archives of Game Show History, Bob Bowden. He's an executive producer of Funny youy Should Ask. And between them, they've known, worked for or interviewed many people who were around during the rise and fall of the quiz shows of 1950s. Our conversation is next. With the Spark Cash plus card from Capital One. You earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase and you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven, Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of Sandcloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence. Now that's serious business. What could the SparkCash plus card from Capital One do for your business?

[Bob Bowden]

Capital One what's in your wallet?

[Lindsey Graham]

Find out [e-mail] SparkCashPlus terms apply American Scandal is sponsored by Audible. I'm not a fan of small spaces and I get a bit nervous out on the open ocean. Plus, it's never good to feel like you're being followed. So why do I enjoy submarine adventures so much? They've got all three. Maybe it's the Plucky Cruise, the cat and mouse mouse hunts the silent tension of just waiting to find out if your torpedoes hit or theirs do. But regardless of what type of action adventure you prefer, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on command, from electrifying suspense to daring quests to spine tingling horror. Get adventurous with Audible originals, new releases, bestsellers, or join me beneath the waves with Crash Dive by Craig de Louis. Get listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com as Howard Blumenthal and Bob Bowden, welcome to American Scandal.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Good to be here.

[Bob Bowden]

Happy to do it.

[Lindsey Graham]

So Howard, let's start with you because your father was in the game show industry during this time, it's just after World War II, the new medium of television is ascending. How did your father get into the business in the first place?

[Howard Blumenthal]

My dad was the kind of student in high school where he'd really rather be doing shows than he would be sitting in a classroom studying. So when he was in the navy on a ship, he put on shows for thousands of people because as he said, Bob Hope knew nothing about our ship in the middle of the Pacific. So he would entertain and that's what he thought his career would be. As it turned out, he was also a poor kid and he needed to start up some revenue in order to be able to feed him and his mom when he got back home. He got a job at Esquire as an assistant art director and loved it. But of course, roads are unpredictable. So after two years working as an art director, he's a little bored, has lunch with a friend. The friend explains that Winky Dink and you'd a children's series is moving from Saturdays only to Saturday and Sunday mornings and they need an art director, a second art director for the second day. So he was hired to do that, but not really work on the show. He really worked on the merchandising. They were really pioneers in licensing and toy company relationships and the like. And he ran all of that. The company, Barry and Enright, was a company that also was doing game shows. And one of the shows was 21, which we'll talk about, but he worked on a bunch of other shows and, and when Winky Dink went off, Dan Enright, who was sort of functionally the day to day operations guy, one of the partners, Dan didn't want to let him go, but didn't really have a job for him. So he made up a job as an operations manager, which meant that Basically, dad was kind of an associate producer on all of their primetime show, all of their shows, daytime and nighttime. So he would wander into the studio and make sure everything was working as it should. And making sure all the people and the pieces were there. The schedules were posted that anybody who needed anything was serviced. So he would spend his day going from one studio to another, interacting with stagehands, interacting with just all the physical aspects of doing a production. And that's how it started. One of the shows was a series called Concentration. Which he ended up later producing after the fallout of the quiz scandals. Because he had had the graphic artist background. And he was able to create puzzles, rebus puzzles and the like, visual puzzles. So it was a very natural sequence for him. And along the way, when he is in the studio, he's sort of very vaguely aware of some murmurs that there might be a problem. And we'll talk more about that.

[Lindsey Graham]

Yeah. Before we do though, Bob, let's explore where the quiz show format came from. And why did it become so popular.

[Bob Bowden]

Well, quiz shows go back to radio. And the birth of quiz shows really began in the late 30s and the 40s on radio. Many of the quiz shows that appeared on radio later were adapted to television. So for instance, there was a show on radio called Take it or leave it, the $64 question, which later became the $64,000 question on television. So when television began in the late 40s, one of the obvious genres to program was game shows. They were cheap to produce, easy to moun, appealed to a large sector of the audience. A lot easier to film than dramas and comedies. So game shows were a natural. And as TV evolved, game shows became more and more popular. There were a wide variety of different types and styles of game shows. Many tested intellect. Many were physical in nature because it was a visual medium. So you could do stunts on a TV version of a game show. Whereas you really couldn't succeed with that on radio. As the 50s wore on, people became more and more interested in wealth post war. And so the quiz show started to give away larger and larger prizes. And that begat the era that led to the scandals.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, Howard, you mentioned that Dan Enright wanted to keep your dad around. Even though he didn't have a real job for him. So he made up a position that I guess turned into something quite permanent. But that gets me curious about Jack Berry and Dan Enright as bosses. What were they like as employers?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Dan really ran the day to day production operation. Jack was really the host and he was hosting multiple series. So he was a very busy guy. So we had Winky Dink for about two years or so on Saturday mornings. And then in addition, there was Bob. What else did Jack host?

[Bob Bowden]

Early on he did tic tac toe for a bit. I think he did the big surprise, but was replaced after a few weeks.

[Howard Blumenthal]

And they were constantly developing new shows. So Jack was the sort of development engine in many ways for that. Dan was the production execution guy. So they had fairly distinct roles. When my dad would talk about working for Barry and Enright, he really meant working for Daniel. Dan was very difficult. He made my grown up, you know, it sounds funny, my grown up dad cry a few times. But Dan also bought my father our first tv. He just found it inconceivable that somebody working for him could not actually watch the shows. So one day a big box showed up at the apartment. So there was a heart of gold part of it. But there was also a deeply uncomfortable aspect of working with Dan as well. And Bob, you've told stories that parallel some of that.

[Bob Bowden]

Yeah, I can echo that sentiment 30 years later. I worked for Dan way later, in the late 80s, after Jack had passed away. There was probably no one more generous and sweeter than Dan. But he also had a dark side, and if you upset him, it was hell to pay. And the only thing worse than Dan's anger was Dan's apologies, which often went on for days. I think that he probably had some residue of PTSD from all that he went through after the scandals.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, of course, 21 wasn't the only show embroiled in this scandal. So it prompts a question whether this kind of pressure cooker that Dan Anright created on set is due to him or due to the nature of a television game show.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, let's separate daytime from primetime. On daytime you have this sort of strangeness of you've got a day to day monster that has to be fed Monday through Friday, you gotta have a show ready. You gotta have five shows ready. You have to have contestants ready. And the staffs are not anything like the size that they are now. So this is a small number of people carrying a pretty big load in prime time. That's a bit of a different dynamic and a strange one in that most of the shows that we're going to talk about were actually produced in the Same single studio. 6A, NBC. It was much more of an event orientation. It was much more of a buzz. Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, Tonight show was across the hall.

[Bob Bowden]

Yeah.

[Howard Blumenthal]

There in 6B. So there was just. It was sort of the energy center. And of course, the sponsors in the network were spending a lot more time worrying about what was on in primetime than they were what was going on at daytime. So the dynamics of all of this were very different. The stakes were very different. The size of the prizes was tremendously different. I mean, you know, on daytime you could walk out having won the game with a whole bunch of laundry detergent, but at nighttime, my father was talking about prizes, including airplanes. So that's quite a difference.

[Lindsey Graham]

You mentioned that many of these shows were produced on the same studio, presumably by oftentimes the same crew. Where did 21 fit into this game show scene? What was different about it?

[Bob Bowden]

There was a distinct look to 21 that was dark and dramatic, which was unlike most other quiz shows. Even the $64,000 question was a lot brighter and a celebratory set, whereas 21 was decidedly dramatic in nature.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, the crews moved from one studio to another throughout the day, so it's not unreasonable to work on three different half hour game shows. Stage managers would wander from one studio to the other, depending upon what their little schedule sheet said. And for me, as a little kid, so now we're Talking about the 1960s, I would go and look for Frank Caden, because Frank Caden was this concentration stage manager. And any studio where Frank was doing the job, he would allow me to sit wherever I wanted. So I'm probably 8 years old. Everybody kind of knew one another's names. It was a very, very small operation.

[Lindsey Graham]

The large shtick of 21 was the use of the soundproof booths. They kind of upped the drama, almost putting the contestants in a fishbowl of sorts. Where did this idea come from, Bob?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Wasn't that on 64?

[Bob Bowden]

Yeah, 64 had a single isolation booth. 21 was a competition between two players. So that show had twin isolation booths. And the philosophy there was that player A could not hear what player B said and vice versa. So the concept of the isolation booth, I believe, started on $64,000 question. But the reason for it really took hold on 21.

[Howard Blumenthal]

And among my dad's list of things to do on days when 21 was live in the evening was stand in the isolation booth, shining up, making sure the window was clear. You. He made sure he was wearing a headphone and tested everything with the audio crew and made sure it was secure for the audio booth in the control room as well as on the floor. So this was a process that they either took very seriously or pretended to take very seriously. Dan Was a good producer. He recognized a good idea. He knew how to build drama. This was a device to do that, and it wasn't very expensive and it looked really cool.

[Lindsey Graham]

So with all this built in drama, it's curious then that 21 at first wasn't really that popular. What happened?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, it wasn't a very good game. Let's start there. One of the essentials of having a game show is you need a good show and you need a good game. 21's very first episode in the control room was not a happy place. Didn't work.

[Bob Bowden]

I believe they got 17 questions wrong on the first episode. That was not what the network or the sponsor was hoping for.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's talk about Geritol, the sponsor of 21. How much were the show's producers answerable to a sponsor like Geritol was dealing with a demanding sponsor. Something new for producers.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, back up a little bit. The connection between sponsors and programming was well established. During radio, there were many, many examples of sponsors calling the shots. By the time we get to television, it's not as if that was a new idea. It was something that had been happening for decades. And the producer's doing their very best to deliver a good show. And you do run throughs before you go to air, and you'd maybe do a pilot before you go to air. And you've practiced this a lot, but it doesn't always play out the way you thought it would. And I think that was the case for 21's situation. You talk yourself into, don't worry, it'll be fine in the studio. Somehow miracles will happen. And in the case of 21, the production gods were angry. They didn't favor the course. So the scoring problems that were inherent in the way the show was developed continued. And we can see the performance that exists of Jack Barry kind of looking at all the zeros. Well, you're not gonna answer that one either. And we see that, you know, even now sometimes on jeopardy, where there'll be a couple of minutes where there's just nobody's answering anything. But this was the show, and there really wasn't any clear path out of this situation. And the show was inherently flawed from the start. So what do you do?

[Bob Bowden]

And it could be fix the lighting, it could be fix the set, it could be fix the audio. It also could be fix the game.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, if you're gerital, you say this never happens again. And you make sure that Dan Enright is looking you directly in the eye when you say that. And Dan says, I understand. End I will do whatever it takes. Or something similar to that. And somehow, miraculously, the next week, things were better.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Jesse Weber]

Of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Bob Bowden]

This assailant starts firing at him and.

[Jesse Weber]

The suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Lindsey Graham]

I was meant to sow terror.

[Howard Blumenthal]

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Jesse Weber]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery. You can join Wondery on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.

[Bob Bowden]

Now.

[Lindsey Graham]

Earlier, Bob, you said that one of the options for the producers is to fix the show, fix the game. One way to do that would be to repair the scoring system or alter the mechanics of the game. Probably less obvious is actually fixing the result of the game. How unusual would that decision be at this time in TV history? Wrestling was being aired on television and it was probably, certainly maybe fixed.

[Bob Bowden]

I can't speak to whether the public knew or cared that wrestling was fixed, but I think there was a general perception that game shows were authentic, that the people who were on them legitimately earned the prizes that they won. So when the scandals came to light, it was this enormous betrayal of the American public. It was a dark day for television and A dark day for American culture on many levels because the public had been duped. They believed that the people who were smart on television were really smart. And when they found out that the answers had been given to them, that was enormous shock. My guess is if a show got on the air like this that was half baked, that it probably wasn't developed properly, that it wasn't given enough time to figure out where the flaws were. In the game show world in general, it's foolhardy to put a show even into a selling process until you've worked out the game and all the kinks and all the issues that might or might not come up. And my hunch was, with the frenzy that was just starting about big money quiz shows, that the show was under baked and got on the air and there wasn't enough of an analysis to say, gee, this could really be boring if nobody answered the questions. So they found that out on the air. And at that point, unless you scrap the whole thing and start all over again, you have to find other ways to put band aids on some pretty big wounds. So that's when they decided the easiest thing to do was just make it work because it wasn't going to work organically.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, I think they knew it was unethical, but I think the they in that sentence is a fairly limited group of people at the beginning. The development of game shows at a fundamental level means you have to play the game a lot. You have to play the game with three contestants, then two. Then in the second round, the points are doubled. No, they're tripled. You need to do that hundreds of times before it goes anywhere near a pitch meeting. You have to feel absolutely secure that the show works. But there are times when shows get rushed because there's a time slot. There's an immediate need by the sponsor and everything accelerates and decisions that shouldn't be made get run over a little bit and maybe a little bit more. And much of the time you've got skillful people and they're able to brush it over in these cases. And remember, it wasn't just 21 that wasn't the case. When you watch the episodes, the few that remain. The public was also duped pretty easily. It's fairly obvious that when Herb Stemple hems and haws before, he doesn't or does answer a question, it's a little fake. Watching the shows today, it's a little hard to miss.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's talk about one particular episode of 21, that of the night of September 9, 1958. In this episode, Jack Berry opens the show by denying all the rumors that the show is fixed. Now, Bob, as part of the National Game Show Archives, you conducted an interview with Jack Berry's widow, Patti, and Dan Enright's son, Don. What did Patty say about why her husband Jack did this in front of all of America? Lie again, straight to their faces.

[Bob Bowden]

Well, if there was one word that could describe the relationship between Jack Barry and Dan Enright through their entire lives, it was loyalty. Jack was loyal to Dan, Dan was loyal to Jack, sometimes perhaps to a fault. And Dan had promised the contestants who were involved in this deception that it would never be revealed to the public. Patty spoke about how Jack's psychiatrist had warned him not to do this, that it would be a bad decision. And Jack, to honor Dan's promise to those contestants, went on television that night. And Boldface lied to the American public and said there was no rigging going on.

[Lindsey Graham]

So, Howard, whether or not the networks knew what was really going on with these quiz shows, at some point the story gets out, of course, and media is printing accused. Rumors are flying around the industry. How, in your opinion, could the networks have handled things differently?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, we talked about 1958. You really have to talk about 1956. This was not a new problem. The issues are festering. And I strongly believe at least some of the people who were in the control room with Dan were aware. Now, if you are a network executive and you smell a rat, your job is to say, hey, rat. And you may not do that publicly, but that's the job. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what the American public is relying upon you for. Okay, yes, the control was on Geritol's side. It's still your network, your credibility, your news division. All the things you do are based upon that fundamental public trust. And when that trust was breached, the network executives, and I'm sure this went all the way up to the top of the network, did nothing. They may have scolded, but mostly they looked away. So in my opinion, none of this ever should have happened because the situation should have been nipped in the bud. The first appearance, the first sense, the show should have been taken off the air or handed off to another production company with strict instructions. But we knew the show didn't work. So the really. The solution was really to take it off the air. It was wrong. Stempel knew it was wrong. In order to be able to keep things quiet, Stempel gets this soft sense of, maybe I'll work for Dan Enright someday or something like that. So everybody had a little bit of nastiness in the game.

[Bob Bowden]

And Van Doren, who had defeated Stempel, he knew it was wrong. He kept it quiet. He later admitted it was shamed irreparably, wound up pretty much in hiding for the better part of the rest of his life, and then came out in an article many years later and acknowledged the trauma that he had faced after having lied and been caught. It's hard to imagine in today's world how someone could keep a lie going that long and not have the wherewithal to say, wait a minute. This isn't cool. And yet these people were so caught up in the fame, the money, the status that it brought them. They played the game. Herb Stempel signed a document in Dan Enright's presence acknowledging that the shows were.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Not fixed because he was playing a bigger game. He was hoping to become another kind of television star, another kind of celebrity. It's interesting to think about. Herb Stemple had finished his run but hung around the Barry and Enright offices, and that Dan would tell my dad to take Herb out to dinner. There was a friendly relationship. Everybody was kind of sticking with the same side. My dad just didn't know anything. He just wasn't involved in any of that stuff. He was excluded. And the reason he told me, and I believe this is true, he's now passed, was because they felt concentration was gonna end up saving their company, and they needed dad around and clean to be able to continue with that show. And then that would lead to adoring me and a few other shows on the air as well. So the idea was to go back into the daytime business, and dad was a piece of that puzzle. So he benefited in his way because he ended up as the producer of a game show that might not have happened were it not for the quiz scandals.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm glad you brought your dad, Norman, back into the conversation because he produced the very last episode of 21. Share that story with us.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, he thought they were crazy. Let's start there. He'd never produced a television show in his life, and this show was a mess, right? So Norman knew all the crew people well. He was respected. It was easy. So the network executive, I think, at that point says, well, you're gonna be producing the show tonight. And he looked at the person and said, excuse me. And then he ran off to the bathroom real quick, came back and said, what do you need me to do? Exactly. And they're like, you just need to be in charge of this episode. And he's like, okay, I've seen other people do that. I guess I can do that. And the crew and all that is like, we'll take care of you. Don't worry about it. So we'll carry you.

[Bob Bowden]

Howard. Did he know it was the last episode or did he find out?

[Howard Blumenthal]

No, everybody knew it was the last episode. Yeah, it was over. So he's like, well, I'm comfortable enough here. And they're like, don't worry, Just sit down. It'll be over in a half hour. But he hated the idea. He didn't want to do it at all, but he truly was the last person standing. Everybody else was in some form of legal difficulty, so NBC could not afford to have any of those people produce. So the initial end right strategy was actually a very good strategy, which is keep one person clean at least, so that things can continue.

[Lindsey Graham]

And so after everything fell apart, what happened to Jack, Barry and Dan? Anright?

[Bob Bowden]

The answer is everybody recovered to some extent. Jack and Dan were exiled. They could not find any work in the us they went to Canada. Dan started up a number of productions in Canada and actually hired Jack to work with him up there. It wasn't until 1975, about 15 years after the scandal broke, that they got back together. Three years prior to that, Jack had sold a show to CBS daytime, the Joker's Wild. So they recovered. They ultimately, in an unusual twist, acquired the rights to Tic Tac Doe, which they had initially produced, and the show was bought by NBC. During the scandal era and in the late 70s, Jack and Dan licensed it from NBC and produced a version that went on for eight years. And they were quite successful. Between the Joker's Wild and Tic Tac Toe and a few other shows, they rebuilt their company. They battled the embarrassment and the humiliation and were able to come back and be victorious.

[Jesse Weber]

In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Bob Bowden]

This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.

[Jesse Weber]

We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Lindsey Graham]

I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.

[Jesse Weber]

I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi Produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.

[Howard Blumenthal]

He's awoken the people to a true issue finally, maybe this would lead rich.

[Lindsey Graham]

And powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.

[Jesse Weber]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. In the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.

[Bob Bowden]

This assailant starts firing at him and.

[Jesse Weber]

The suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

[Lindsey Graham]

I was meant to sow terror.

[Howard Blumenthal]

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

[Jesse Weber]

Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery plus on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[Lindsey Graham]

So, Bob, you work currently in the game show industry, and you kind of gave me a hint of this, but how do you think people in the industry now remember these quiz show scandals?

[Bob Bowden]

I think many of the people who work in game shows today either have no concept of the scandal era or have heard of it peripherally, but it has no impact on their sense of integrity or honesty in their work. What came after the quiz show scandals was layer upon layer upon layer of legal enforcement. After the Senate subcommittee hearings, it was determined that quiz show rigging was a federal offense and that anyone who participated in deceiving the viewing public in the context of what was considered to be a legitimate quiz show would be subject to a significant fine and even time in federal prison. Today there is FCC regulation for legal nerds out there. It's US Code Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter 5, Section 509, which states very clearly that there can be no unfairness or misrepresentation of the honesty of any type of competition on television. And that goes beyond quiz shows. It goes into all game shows and today all reality competition shows.

[Lindsey Graham]

Did these new rules put a damper on game show production?

[Bob Bowden]

Well, as Howard said at the beginning of this interview, if it's a good game, there's nothing to worry about. Our job as producers and creative executives is to do our darndest to make sure that the game is solid and doesn't need to be rigged. And if it needs to be rigged, then it shouldn't have gone on television. And if you find that out too late, you have to pull it off television. But if the game is good, why would you try to create outcomes that are not legitimate? Game shows as an art form are happy places. They're places for celebration and excitement. Yeah, a little bit of drama thrown in from time to time. But it's got to be real. And the current trends of reality television and their popularity speak to the ability that the production community has gathered over the decades to create legitimate reality experiences that are honest and are represented properly to the American public. And those of us who toil in that world are very proud to be a part of it.

[Lindsey Graham]

Howard, you mentioned your dad, Norm worked on a game show called Concentration after the quiz show scandals. Tell us about that show.

[Howard Blumenthal]

From post quiz scandal all the way through the early 70s, my dad produced one of the more popular daytime game shows called Concentration for NBC. And the show involved simply identifying individual puzzle pieces that would come together as a rebus. So you might have a letter followed by a bird. Then you'd have to figure out what that combination meant. And it required a game board that revealed little pieces of those puzzles. So you would match Items on a 30 square board and try to understand what the producer, the creator, in that case, my dad was trying to communicate. There was a time after the scandals when big money obviously was off the table, but didn't mean game shows were off the table. There were actually quite a few game shows on that emerged through the 50s and 60s and. And a lot of them are now on in primetime.

[Lindsey Graham]

Right.

[Bob Bowden]

I want to tell a 30 second story about Jeopardy. Because when Merv Griffin, who created Jeopardy. With his then wife Julanne, was thinking about how to recover from the quiz show scandals, this was the early 60s and it was still fresh in everyone's mind. The story goes that they were on an airplane together, and Julann, his wife, said, I've got an idea for a new quiz show. And he said, quiz show? Why would we do a quiz show? They all got in trouble. And she said, it's a quiz show where you give the people the answers. And he stopped there and he said, wait a minute. That's how they got in trouble. You can't give people the answers. She said, no, wait, wait. You give them the answers, and the contestants have to come up with the questions. And that was the birth of Jeopardy. Which is on the air 60 years later and has never been tainted by the quiz show scandals. But at the time, it was an enormous risk for NBC, the network that had suffered the most, arguably from the quiz show scandals, to put a quiz show on in daytime. And here we are six decades later, and it's still a hit show.

[Lindsey Graham]

And Howard, what do you think the legacy of the scandals are?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Well, there's a movie, and I suspect that more people know more about The Quizzo scandals from the Robert Redford film, which certainly has its good parts and bad. Truth or not, it's just too long ago. Even with all of my father's first person telling, it's still a little abstract. So you have that. But in some phases of our lives in the United States, we hold one another to a higher standard. We have expectations, but things can go very wrong very quickly.

[Bob Bowden]

And even the quiz show movie was 30 years ago. So if you have anybody working in the game show business today who's under 40, chances are even that movie is not on their radar. So I think the public needs to know about the quiz show scandal just to appreciate that what they're seeing today is legit, is real, is authentic, and that the entertainment value doesn't come from deception, it comes from quality.

[Lindsey Graham]

Howard Blumenthal, Bob Bowden, thank you both so much for talking with me on American Scandal.

[Bob Bowden]

Thanks for playing Lindsay. It was really fun.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Yes, thank you, Lindsay.

[Lindsey Graham]

That was my conversation with longtime TV producers Howard Blumenthal and Bob Bowden. Together they co founded the National Archives of Game Show History at the Strong Museum of Play in Rochester, New York. Bob is the executive producer of Funny youy Should Ask from Wondery. This is episode five of our series on quiz show rigging. Next on American Skin, we're airing an encore presentation of our series on Edward Snowden, a whistleblower who changed the national conversation about privacy on the Internet. As a contractor for the nsa, Snowden came to understand a devastating secret. The American government was conducting mass surveillance on its own citizens. If you're enjoying American scandal, you can unlock exclusive seasons on Wondery. Binge new seasons first and listen completely ad free when you join Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out A [e-mail] survey American Scandal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Granford, Airship. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker. Our senior interview producer is Peter A.R. cooney. Sound design by Gabriel Gould. Music by Thrum Produced by John Reed. Managing producer Joe Florentino. Senior producers are Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Development by Stephanie Jens. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marshall, Louie and Aaron O'Flaherty. For wondering.

[Jesse Weber]

Jack, Our show is called the best one yet, but can you introduce it as a Tinder bio?

[Howard Blumenthal]

Yeah.

[Jesse Weber]

This is Jack. That was Nick. We're best friends and ex finance guys who host the best one yet, the daily podcast merging business news with pop culture.

[Howard Blumenthal]

Yep.

[Jesse Weber]

And we have a puppy. Actually, on our podcast, we'll tell you how Starbucks borrowed a growth hack from Ludacris. Or that blondes showing their natural brunette hair is an early indicator of a recession. Or why hot take coming Apple's next product should be an AI smart toilet. We've worked on Wall street, sold a media startup to a tech company, and have done 1500 episodes of this daily show. So whether you're launching a business, aiming for that promotion, or just want to be the best person at brunch, start your morning with our three business stories in 20 minutes. And if you don't use one of our takeaways in your next job interview, you will give you that puppy. It's a write off. The most interesting people follow the best one yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free right now on Wondery plus.