Lindsey Graham (0:00)

Want to get more from American Scandal? Subscribe to Wondery for early access to new episodes, ad free listening and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's the late afternoon of August 21, 1992, at FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. larry Potts is in his office, rifling through printouts on his desk. Potts is the Bureau's assistant director in charge of criminal investigations, and he's trying to get his head around an ongoing emergency brewing in the mountains of Northern Idaho. Only a few hours ago, a group of U.S. marshals were running a surveillance mission on the property of fugitive Randy Weaver. But as the marshals headed back to their base camp, they came face to face with Weaver, his son Samuel, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. A firefight ensued, leaving one marshal dead. And at least one member of the Weaver clan was hit, too. But it hasn't been confirmed who it was or whether they're still alive. Weaver wasn't even on Potts radar until this morning, and he's struggling to put the pieces together. But it's been decided that the Bureau's hostage rescue team will deploy immediately. This is an elite group with special training and some of the best snipers in law enforcement. But before the team heads to Idaho, Potts wants to discuss the mission with a hostage rescue team leader. So when Richard Rogers, head of hrt, arrives at the office, Potts brings him right in. Rogers, great. I know you've been briefed on the situation in Idaho. Take a seat. What's your read on it? Well, frankly, sir, this might be the most dangerous situation the HRTs ever faced. We've got an ex military suspect with special Forces training and an axe to grind with the government. He's holed up with two other adults, both reportedly armed, and four kids, one of them just a baby. It's a mess. Potts flips through the report. It says here even the kids might be armed. Yeah, the boy, Samuel, he was with his father and this Kevin Harris guy when they chased down the marshals. It was a totally unprovoked attack. The marshals were leaving the property. And it's not over yet. Apparently the family is still out there shooting. Two marshals are pinned down in the woods, and they're trying to get a local SWAT team there to walk them down the hill. How does a 14 year old boy end up shooting at federal agents with a semiautomatic? Well, this seems to have been a long time coming. The Marshals have been trying to negotiate with Weaver for over a year and a half, I hear, but he won't budge. Won't even talk to his own lawyer. And who are they? I've heard they're some sort of religious extremists. Yeah, and maybe more than that. Weaver was close with Aryan Nations. Their headquarters is just down the road from Ruby Ridge. That whole part of Idaho is crawling with those militia types. So the longer this drags out, the more likely some of them might show up looking to escalate. All right, so we've got a hostile compound, kids with guns, extremists in the area. Which I guess brings me to the big one. Are you. Are you equipped to end this? I know there's been some talk about changing the normal rules of engagement. Well, we're locked and loaded, sir. But, yeah, given what's already happened, there's a strong argument that the current rules of engagement tie our hands a bit. I mean, one of our guys is dead. Shots have been fired from the Ridge. That could justify treating any armed adult as an imminent threat, whether they're actively pointing a weapon or not. I see. And you'd like the rules of engagement updated to reflect that? I guess it would make sense to me. I want you to take lead on this. Draft some new language, and I'll run it past legal while you're on the flight. Only a few hours ago, Larry Potts had never even heard of Ruby Ridge. But now he's sending his men out to confront a heavily armed family who've already shown no qualms about killing federal agents. So he hopes the altered rules of engagement will help keep his men safe and bring the standoff to a rapid conclusion. American Scandal is sponsored by the Easy money podcast. In 1920, a broke immigrant in Boston became one of America's richest, most infamous men practically overnight. He swindled the modern equivalent of a quarter billion dollars and etched his name into history as the mastermind behind one of the notorious scams ever the Ponzi Scheme. Hosted by Maya Lau and featuring award winning comedian and actor Sebastian Maniscalco, this is Easy Money. The Charles Ponzi story, an Apple original podcast produced by illmedia. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. American Scandal is sponsored by Dell Technologies, whose Black Friday in July event is here. With great offers on trusted technology, you'll also discover huge deals on new AI ready laptops like the Dell 14 plus featuring Intel Core Ultra processors starting at 699 doll, save on top accessories, plus enjoy fast free shipping and other benefits. Upgrade today by visiting Dell.com deals from Wondery. I'm Lindsey Graham and this is American Scandal. By the time the FBI hostage rescue team was in the air in August 1992, there had already been two fatalities at Ruby Ridge. US Marshal Bill Deegan and 14 year old Samuel Weaver had been killed in a firefight in the woods. But both sides thought they were the ones who had been attacked and both sides thought they were still in imminent danger. This confusion was typical of the entire situation. The standoff had been sparked by Randy Weaver's failure to appear at trial on gun charges. But Weaver had refused to give himself up, mainly because of mistakes made by the government. First, he was wrongly told he stood to lose his property if he was convicted. Then he was given the incorrect court date. He quickly became convinced that the federal authorities were setting him up and refused to cooperate any further. But it wasn't just Weaver who was acting on bad information. Contrary to what the FBI believed, the Weavers had not chased the marshals through the trees and gunned them down. Instead, they had just been following their dog. And they hadn't continued firing at the marshals after the initial shootout either. The shots that echoed across the hills had been fired harmlessly into the air by Randy Weaver as he grieved his dead son. But the fog of confusion and mutual fear that hung over the mountain would only deepen in the hours to come. Now more armed men were heading to Ruby Ridge and the situation was about to get much worse. This is episode three deadly force. It's 9am on August 22, 1992, just under 24 hours since the shootout on Ruby Ridge. Lon Horiuchi strides into a National Guard building in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, a small town about 20 miles from the Weavers property. Horiuchi is a sniper with the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue team and he's here for a briefing on their mission before heading into the field. At just under 40 years old, Horiuchi has been with the HRT for about a decade. But he's never seen this type of manpower assembled for a single mission before. All 50 of his fellow HRT agents are here. Like Horiuchi, they are all fitted out for battle in green fatigues, Kevlar vests and helmets. Horiuchi takes a seat as the room falls silent and HRT lead Richard Rogers begins the briefing. He tells them that they are headed into an active firefight. One marshal has already been killed and a SWAT team has been dispatched to rescue the two surviving marshals. Nearby homes have been Evacuated. But news of the shooting has spread quickly. Friends of the Weavers have begun to arrive at the scene along with a growing number of radical right wing anti government protesters. The crowd is currently being held at a roadblock on a bridge leading to the area. But dozens of state and federal agents are also standing guard in the woods surrounding the Weaver compound. They're ready to deter any protesters who try to sneak around the roadblock and join the fight. Hearing all this, Horiuchi is starting to understand why all 50 HRT agents have been called in. Rogers tells the room that he has no intention of allowing the situation to escalate. They don't want this turning into a long, drawn out siege. They're going in hard and fast to end it. As such, the rules of engagement for this mission have been amended. Horiuchi leans forward to listen closely. He knows the FBI's standard rules of engagement by heart. A framed printout of those rules hangs in his office. They're the backbone of every mission and he can't recall any previous operation where they've been changed. The new rules are printed out on a sheet that Rogers holds in his hand. He reads, if any adult in the compound is observed with weapons after the surrender announcement is made, deadly force can and should be used to neutralize this individual. The phrase can and should catches Horiuchi's ear. That sounds like he's not just allowed to fire on armed adults, but is actually being encouraged to do so. Then Rogers continues, if any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed if a shot can be taken without endangering the children. As for the children, Rogers goes on any subjects other than Randy or Kevin Harris presenting threat of death or grievous bodily harm, Standard FBI rules of deadly force apply. Horiuchi understands that this means that even the children can be fired up upon, but only if someone's life is in danger. And now that the new rules of engagement have been presented, the briefing wraps up. Horiuchi gathers his gear, ready to catch his ride to Ruby Ridge. He's headed into what sounds like a war zone, but his orders are clear. If he sees an adult with a gun, it's his job to neutralize him. At around 5pm Lon Horiuchi joins a team of his fellow snipers as they make their way up the hill toward the Weaver's property on Ruby Ridge. They take up positions in the dense forest a few hundred yards from the cabin. Their primary objective is to observe the Weaver family and report what they see back to base camp. But they all keep in mind that they've been given the green light to shoot any armed male adult they see on the property. Then, just before 6pm, Horiuchi is lying on his belly in the underbrush when he hears an FBI armored personnel carrier on the move further down the hill. It's going to be bringing more agents to the scene. But one of the Weaver's dogs immediately begins barking in response to the engine noise. Moments later, Horiuchi sees 16 year old Sarah Weaver emerge from the cabin to look around. She's unarmed, but is soon joined by Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, though Horiuchi cannot tell which is which. But they're both carrying guns, which means that according to the revised rules of engagement, Horiuchi believes he's free to open fire. Horiuchi has a clear shot, but he holds off, waiting to see what they're up to. But then, from behind him, Horiuchi hears a helicopter approaching. Those in the compound hear it too. Randy Weaver sprints toward one of the sheds and grabs onto the low slung roof to swing himself behind it. Horiuchi thinks he's taking a defensive position and preparing to fire on the helicopter. He considers calling out an order to surrender, but he doesn't think anyone in the compound would be able to hear him from this distance. So, fearing for the safety of the people in the helicopter, Horiuchi fires a shot. He aims for Weaver's spine, but at the last moment, Weaver moves. The bullet catches his hand before burying itself in the splintering plywood of the shed. Grimacing with pain, Weaver screams to the others to get inside. They all sprint back toward the cabin, but Horiuchi doesn't want to let the men get inside. He's afraid they'll return fire while using their children as human shields. So he follows them with his scope, waiting for the right moment. When the trio reaches the cabin's front door, there's a bottleneck as they all try to squeeze through. Sarah and Randy get inside first, but before Kevin Harris can follow, Horiuchi takes his shot. He sees his target flinch as he dives into the darkness of the cabin, out of sight. Horiuchi has no idea who he's hit or if anyone's been killed. And he's not thought about the possibility that Vicki Weaver might be standing behind the door with her 10 month old baby in her hands. Inside the cabin, it's chaos. 16 year old Sarah lies on the cabin floor a few feet inside the doorway, gasping for breath. Her father, Randy and Kevin cry out in pain. Kevin is bleeding badly from a gunshot wound to the shoulder. Randy's injured too, cradling his limp and bloodied hand by his stomach. Then Sarah spots her mother. Vicki Weaver is slumped over on her knees in the doorway, still holding baby Elisheba in her arms. But she isn't moving. In an instant, Sarah realizes her mother is dead. Her 10 year old sister Rachel screams. Then the baby, trapped in her dead mother's arms, begins to wail in fright. Sarah realizes she has to try and remain calm. Her mother is gone, the men are hurt, and the family is under attack. She tries to think what her mother would do in this situation. And the first thing Vicky would do is tell everyone to be quiet. The Feds can use the family's cries against them, helping the snipers locate them for other shots that are sure to come. So Sarah yells out, telling them not to make a sound. But as the men go quiet, she realizes they have even bigger problems. The door is still open, so she crawls over to her father and tells him they need to drag Vicky inside and get the door closed. Randy pulls Aliciaba from Vicky's arms. Sarah can see that the little girl is covered in blood. Frantically, she and Randy check all over the baby's body, but they're relieved to see that she has not been hit. So they hand the baby off to Rachel and begin slowly dragging Vicky's lifeless body into the cabin. When her mother is finally clear of the door, Sarah slams it shut. Sarah then gathers the two younger children to her and pulls them flat on the floor. She shields them with her body and then covers her mouth to muffle the sound of her own crying. Sarah realizes that everything her mother prophesied is coming true. The end times have come for the Weaver family. This is their own personal Armageddon. First Samuel, now Vicky. One by one, the Feds are taking them out. And without her mother to guide and protect them, Sarah decides that she will have to be the one to hold the family together. So she begins to pray, asking for the strength needed in this moment. Inside the base camp at the bottom of the hill, FBI hostage negotiator Fred Lansley is stunned by what's happened. He's only been on site for a few hours, but a sniper has already fired at the Weavers before he's even had a chance to begin negotiations. No one on the government side seems to know who's been hit or what condition they're in. Lansley is certain of one thing, though. He needs to get up to the cabin before things spiral further out of control. So at around 6pm only minutes after the sniper fire began, Lansley piles into a tank like armored personnel carrier. Along with hostage rescue team leader Richard Rodgers and a handful of other agents, they begin driving up the hill. It's a long, tense journey with multiple stops to check for booby traps along the way. But after 45 minutes, they finally reach their destination and stop about 20ft in front of the cabin. Lancellate turns to Rogers to discuss their next steps. Okay, here's what we gotta do. I've got a phone here for Randy to talk to us. I'd like to get that to him as soon as possible. Establish a line of communication. Well, first we need to announce ourselves and make the surrender order. That should have been done before the first shot, but we're past that now. Still, let's move forward. By the book, all right, copy that. Lansley pulls a radio hand set off the wall of the personnel carrier. The handset is wired into a bullhorn on top of the vehicle. Mr. Weaver, this is Fred Lansley of the FBI. You should understand that we have warrants for the arrest of yourself and Mr. Harris. This is an order to surrender. Lansley waits a long beat for a response. But he's met only with silence from the cabin, so he continues on. Randy, we don't want anyone else to get hurt. Just want to talk to you about how we can get you and your family out of the cabin peacefully. Lanceley waits and listens, but again there's no sound from the cabin. He turns back to Rogers. Maybe he's responding, but we can't hear him through the walls. I think getting that phone inside is our best shot. Okay, let's do it quick. The sun's gonna be down in less than an hour. I'm worried they're just stalling so they can ambush us in the dark. Lanceli nods and pulls the phone out from beneath the seat. Then he carefully opens the the hatch of the roof of the vehicle, slides the phone outside and lowers it softly to the ground by its wire. The wire is more than a mile long. Long enough to reach all the way back to base camp. Lance Lee then closes the hatch and gets back on the bullhorn. Randy, I've left a phone just outside. Please come out unarmed and bring it in so we can talk. I give you my word, no one will harm you. Lansley feels Rogers tap him on the shoulder. A psych profile says Vicki is the one calling the shots in there. Maybe try her. Okay. Good call. Vicki, we know you're in there too. Please pick up the phone. I'm on the other end. I just want to help you and your children get out of this safely. You or one of the kids can come out and take it. No one will be harmed. I'd really like to talk to you, Vicki. Are you there? After several minutes with no answer, the decision is made to head back down the mountain. The armored vehicle begins slowly backing down the hill, unspooling the phone wire behind it. Lansley hopes they use it because as he rides along, he thinks about what Rogers said. Maybe the government has approached this case all wrong from the start. They spent all this time trying to reason with Randy, when maybe really it's Vicki calling the shots. Lancely makes a mental note. When he resumes negotiations tomorrow, he's going to focus more on her her. Because if he can get Vicki talking, perhaps everything will be okay. American Scandal is sponsored by Wayfair. You ever go outside on one of these summer evenings and smell a grill fired up somewhere? Hear the delighted squeals of kids playing outdoors? A peel of hearty adult laughter, the warm glow of string lights from over the fence? It almost makes you envious enough to call your friends over right then for a spontaneous backyard get together. But backyard get togethers really only work when you get your backyard together. 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New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 GB on unlimited plan. Tax and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. By the afternoon of August 23, 1992, almost 24 hours have passed since the FBI hostage negotiator Fred Lansley left a phone outside the weaver's cabin. The FBI has rung the phone every 15 minutes, but no one has yet come out to retrieve it. So without any communication from the Weavers, the government agents don't know who has been shot. They're unaware that Vicki Weaver and her teenage son Samuel are dead. And they don't know that Kevin Harris is gravely wounded. Desperate to gather any information, the FBI sends a modified bomb disposal robot rolling up the hill. It's loaded with surveillance and communication devices, including a camera, microphone and speaker. And when the robot arrives outside the cabin, Lanceley uses its loudspeaker to address both Randy and Vicki. But he again gets no response. The FBI still hopes to negotiate an end to the standoff. But with every hour that passes, a peaceful resolution seems less likely. Now the time is approaching when agents must begin preparing to storm the cabin. Any such operation would be conducted by the elite hostage rescue team. And ahead of a possible assault on the Weaver compound, the HRT leader, Richard Rogers, decides to remove some of the smaller structures on the ridge. He hopes to create better lines of sight for his snipers and ensure that the assault team can move freely in the area surrounding the cabin. So just after sunset, Rogers sends another armored personnel carrier up the hill to begin pushing the structures out of the way. But when the vehicle reaches the largest shed, he instructs them to pause. It occurs to Rogers that the structure might be booby trapped. Or there may be someone Hiding inside, waiting to ambush them. So he instructs a pair of assault team agents to head in and take a look first. The agents crawl along the dark forest floor, dressed head to toe in camouflage with automatic rifles strapped to their backs. When they reach the clearing surrounding the Weaver cabin, the lead agent pauses to look through his night vision goggles. Alright, it looks clear. Let's move. Getting to their feet, they draw their weapons and sprint for the shed. The lead agent flattens himself against the rough wood siding. He scans the cabin but sees no movement. All right, on my count of three, will converge on the entrance. I'll take the door. You breach. All righty. Okay. Three, two, one. Go. The lead agent reaches the door and swings it open. And as his partner moves inside with his rifle raised, the lead agent puts a hand on his shoulder and follows closely behind. Inside the doorway, he. He clicks on a flashlight mounted to the top of his gun. He scans the room and there's not much inside. A bed covered in a white sheet. A cheap nightstand with a potted plant piled. Clothes tossed in the corner. Okay, looks empty to me. What's that over there? The agent flicks his flashlight across the bed. There's a lump under the sheet. All right, I'm going to pull off that sheet. Cover me nice and slow. Nice and slow. Could be wired. The lead agent trains his gun on the bed while he watches his partner pull away the sheet. Ah, Jesus. The body of Samuel Weaver lies naked on the bed. Is that one of the kids? Yeah. Must be the son. We gotta call this in. We can't leave him here. You think it was Horiuchi that got him? Unlikely. It was clear he hit an adult. This kid didn't shoot himself in the back. Maybe it was one of the marshals. Didn't they say they shot someone? Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it wasn't one of us at all. What do you mean? I mean, you saw the psych profile. Parents like this, they think surrender means losing their kids. No way. No, no. You're saying they did this? I'm saying I don't know. But in a situation like this, people stop thinking straight. As the agent reports the discovery to base camp, he begins to think of the other children still inside the Weaver cabin. Sarah, Rachel and the baby haven't been seen or heard from in two days. With Randy and Vicky still refusing to communicate with negotiators, there's no way to know if the kids are alive or dead. And the longer that remains the case, the more worried the FBI will become. Shortly after discovering Samuel Weaver. The FBI agents carry his body out of the shed and bring it down the hill. The government determines that Samuel was killed during the initial gunfight between the Weavers and the marshals. But without an autopsy or ballistics analysis, they can draw no firm conclusions about who fired the fatal shot. Shortly afterward, FBI negotiator Fred Lansley speaks to the family through the loudspeaker on the robot, expressing his condolences. He asks the Weavers for guidance on what to do with the body in accordance with their religious beliefs. But once again he gets no response. By the next morning, it's been three days since Samuel was killed and two days since Vicky was struck down by an FBI sniper. Inside the cabin, it's pure misery. 16 year old Sarah is struggling to keep the family together and hold on to her own sanity. She sits on the couch trying to nurse her crying baby sister from a bottle. It's been hard enough to settle Elisheba without her mother, but overnight the FBI set up floodlights around the cabin and the phone left out on the lawn has been ringing every 15 minutes for the past day and a half. No one who's been able to get any sleep feels like the family is being tortured. As Sarah looks around the room, she takes stock of what's happened. Her little brother has been killed by the Feds and now they've stolen his body. Meanwhile, her dead mother, Vicky, is underneath the kitchen table covered by a blanket, her dried blood smeared all across the floor. Sarah looks to the other end of the couch. Her father, Randy, was hit in the hand by a government sniper, but he's still strong enough to clean the barrel of a pistol. Sarah is more worried about Kevin Harris. He's slumped into a recliner in the corner of the room. His skin is growing gray and he grips his bloodied shoulder, moaning in pain. In a weak voice, he begs Randy to shoot him and put him out of his misery. But Randy refuses, saying he couldn't do a thing like that. But as Kevin's pain gets worse and worse, Sarah feels like she has to do something. So she hands the baby off to her younger sister. Rachel walks to the kitchen. Sarah grabs the family's rudimentary first aid kit off the counter and a shaker of cayenne pepper from the cupboard. She brings it over to Kevin's recliner and kneels beside him. Slowly, she removes the bloody gauze from his shoulder. He gasps in pain as she peels it away. The bullet hole hasn't closed and more blood begins to trickle down his arm. She quickly dabs a cotton swab with peroxide and applies it to the wound, making Kevin shape shudder with pain once again. Then Sarah dashes a sprinkle of the cayenne pepper on top to help fight infection. It's an old trick she learned from her mother. But as Sarah tapes a fresh piece of gauze over the wound, she hears a loud, distorted voice outside. It's that robot again. The voice on its loudspeaker has been blaring at them for days, but now it's playing a new trick. It's talking to Vicky, telling her that the Feds are having pancakes for breakfast at the bottom of the hill. The voice asks Vicki to let the kids come down and have some. Hearing this, Randy loses his cool. He yells to Sarah that the Feds know perfectly well that Vicky is dead. They're the ones who killed her. So he gets up off the couch and storms to the front of the room through the closed front door. He starts screaming at the robot, calling the Feds cowards and demanding that they stop taunting his family. Sarah is terrified that her father might do something stupid like open the door and go outside to shoot shoot the robot. So she gently puts her hand on her father's back and tries to reason with him. She explains the Feds probably don't know that Vicki is dead. They can't see inside the cabin or hear what he's screaming through the door. But Randy just keeps yelling and yelling. Sarah begs him to quiet down and move away from the door, explaining that they could use his voice to tell where he's standing and shoot him as well. This seems to do the trick because Randy stomps back to the couch, mumbling to himself about the Fed's dirty tricks. Sarah takes back her baby sister from Rachel and rocks her in her arms. But Elisheba won't stop crying. She's desperate for her mother, and that's the one thing Sarah can't do anything about. So Sarah is at her wits end. She knows they can't go on like this much longer. If they stay inside the cabin, Kevin will likely die from his gunshot. It won't be long before they're out of formula for the baby. But Sarah can't see a way out. The last time they opened the front door door, the government tried to shoot them all. So Sarah closes her eyes and does exactly what her mother would have done in this situation. She again prays to God for an answer. You have five new messages.