Station Nightclub Fire | Ninety Seconds to Get Out | 4

Summary

American Scandal: Station Nightclub Fire | Ninety Seconds to Get Out | Episode 4

Release Date: February 11, 2025

Introduction to the Station Nightclub Fire

In the evening of February 20, 2003, the Station Nightclub in West Warwick, Rhode Island, became the site of one of America's deadliest nightclub fires. The tragedy occurred during a performance by the 1980s metal band Great White, whose pyrotechnics ignited a devastating blaze. Within ninety seconds, the fire engulfed the venue, leading to the loss of 100 lives and injuring 230 others.

Scott James' Background and Motivation

Veteran journalist Scott James, the author of Trial by Fire: A Devastating Tragedy, 100 Lives Lost, and a 15-Year Search for the Truth, delves deep into the complexities surrounding the fire. Growing up in Rhode Island, James had personal connections to the tragedy, including former colleagues and friends who were impacted directly by the fire.

Notable Quote:

"This is the worst thing that ever happened where I grew up." (04:16)

The Fire and Immediate Aftermath

Initially perceived as an elaborate part of the show, the flames quickly betrayed their true nature as the fire spiraled out of control. The rapid spread of black smoke and flames left patrons scrambling for escape, but the overwhelmed venue structure hindered their efforts.

Misconceptions and Conflicting Accounts

Scott James highlights the discrepancies in eyewitness accounts and official narratives, which have fueled ongoing debates about responsibility and accountability.

Gina Russo's Testimony

Gina Russo, a survivor of the fire, provided a heartfelt and personal account of her experience. However, some of her observations have been questioned for appearing sensational.

Notable Quote:

"This person decided that we were not worth saving." (07:20)

James counters this by presenting evidence from the bouncer’s testimony and photographs, illustrating that the bouncer was unaware of the imminent danger, thereby challenging Russo’s interpretation.

Brian Butler's Actions

Brian Butler, the videographer documenting the club that night, faced public scrutiny for filming during the crisis. James defends Butler's actions, emphasizing his role as a journalist capturing unfolding events without the intent to harm.

Notable Quote:

"He was just doing what he's supposed to do, which is get footage." (10:04)

Grand Jury Investigation and Its Flaws

A secret grand jury convened shortly after the fire, swiftly focusing on nightclub owners Jeffrey and Michael Dudarian and Great White’s roadie Daniel Beakley. James criticizes the investigation for its narrow focus, ignoring broader culpabilities such as building safety and fire code violations.

Notable Quote:

"They have already decided who's guilty for this." (14:17)

The Role of Foam and Pyrotechnics

The nightclub was adorned with highly flammable packing foam instead of the required flame-retardant soundproofing foam, a critical factor in the fire's rapid escalation. James reveals documents indicating that the Dudarian brothers had ordered sound foam, but received packing foam instead—a detail obscured during the prosecution.

Notable Quote:

"It's an accident that happened. A lot of things went wrong simultaneously." (26:12)

Prosecution and Legal Outcomes

Despite substantial evidence, the Dudarian brothers received relatively lenient sentences through a plea bargain: Michael was sentenced to four years in prison, while Jeffrey received 500 hours of community service and three years of probation. James argues that this outcome was influenced by the prosecutors' eagerness to close the case without thorough examination.

Impact on Fire Safety Codes

The Station Nightclub Fire served as a pivotal moment for fire safety reforms. The widespread dissemination of the fire footage educated the public on emergency preparedness and prompted significant updates to fire codes, particularly concerning building materials and venue capacities.

Notable Quote:

"This fire has probably saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives." (30:59)

Memorial and Community Healing Efforts

Gina Russo spearheaded the creation of a living memorial at the former site of the nightclub. The park features musical-themed memorials representing each victim, fostering a space for remembrance and reflection.

Notable Quote:

"It's an incredibly moving scene." (35:29)

Public Perception and Media Portrayal

James critiques the media's role in shaping public perception, particularly how television adaptations of his book may have oversimplified the narrative, inadvertently exonerating the nightclub owners without presenting the full scope of evidence.

Notable Quote:

"They tried to introduce this to him, and he doesn't have a good response. It basically makes the government look bad." (33:26)

Lessons Learned and Ongoing Issues

Despite advancements in fire safety, James emphasizes that tragedies like the Station Nightclub Fire continue to occur, highlighting the need for persistent vigilance and enforcement of safety regulations.

Notable Quote:

"It's not so clear that that's true." (38:52)

Conclusion

Scott James' investigation into the Station Nightclub Fire reveals a multifaceted tragedy rooted in miscommunication, regulatory failures, and immediate crisis response flaws. His work underscores the importance of comprehensive investigations and transparent accountability to prevent future disasters.

Notable Quotes Summary:

1. "This is the worst thing that ever happened where I grew up." (04:16)
2. "This person decided that we were not worth saving." (07:20)
3. "He was just doing what he's supposed to do, which is get footage." (10:04)
4. "They have already decided who's guilty for this." (14:17)
5. "It's an accident that happened. A lot of things went wrong simultaneously." (26:12)
6. "This fire has probably saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives." (30:59)
7. "It's an incredibly moving scene." (35:29)
8. "They tried to introduce this to him, and he doesn't have a good response. It basically makes the government look bad." (33:26)
9. "It's not so clear that that's true." (38:52)

Final Thoughts

The Station Nightclub Fire remains a stark reminder of the devastating consequences of oversight failures and the critical importance of stringent safety measures. Through Scott James' meticulous research and candid discussions, American Scandal sheds light on the intricate web of factors that culminated in one of America's most heartbreaking tragedies.

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Hi, this is Lindsey Graham, host of American Scandal. Our back catalog has moved behind a paywall. Recent episodes remain free, but older ones will require a Wondery plus subscription. With Wondery, you get access to the full American Scandal Archive ad free, plus early access to new seasons and more. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. A Listener Note this episode contains graphic details and may not be suitable for a younger audience. Wonder From Wondery I'm Lindsey Graham and this is American Scandal. For hard rock fans In West Warwick, Rhode island, the evening of February 20, 2003 should have been just another fun night out. The 80s metal band Great White had just taken the stage behind a wall of pyrotechnics ignited by their tour manager. Lead singer Jack Russell sang the opening lines of their first song, then stopped when he saw flames creeping up the walls of the club. At first the club patrons thought the flames were planned, until it became clear that they were not and the fire was out of control. Black smoke spread quickly as people fought to get out, and a hundred would lose their lives in the flames. Veteran journalist Scott James grew up in Rhode island and ran a TV newsroom there. Before the fire, one of his former colleagues lost her son in the tragedy Station nightclub owner Jeffrey Dadarian also worked as a reporter, and for a time James had been his boss. And Brian Butler, the videographer who was filming the club that night, also once worked for James. But that there were still so many unanswered questions about this hometown tragedy led James to spend years reading court documents and interviewing people who were there that night to try to piece together the facts of what happened. Scott James is the author of Trial by Fire, a devastating tragedy, 100 lives lost, and a 15 year search for the Truth. Our conversation is next. American Scandal is sponsored by Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs who want to stand out and succeed online. The whole world seems to be talking about AI, and for good reason. I'm as astounded as I am frightened by it, frankly. But we need to remember that it's just a tool, one you can use right now to help you reach your goals. If you have or need a website, Squarespace's new Design Intelligence combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential. Design Intelligence empowers you to build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to your unique needs to build your unique digital identity across your entire online presence. So no matter what you do on the web, write, create, sell, consult, coach, teach you can do it better, faster and look more professional with Squarespace. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com scandal to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com scandal to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain.

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[Scott James]

Scott James, welcome to America.

Hey Lindsey, thanks for having me.

So do you remember where you were, where you heard about the station nightclub fire?

1St Yes. I think like millions of other people, I saw it on tv. This is the worst thing that ever happened where I grew up. I run a newsroom there in Rhode island for many, many years. And it turned out later I would find out that I knew many people there. But I had long since years earlier, before the fire had moved out to California. So I was not there covering the news at that point. So I saw it on cnn. One of the many twists of this terrible TR tragedy was that this fire was caught on videotape from inside the nightclub. And so that video, because it was so rare, this is before iPhones, where everything gets recorded. And it was a professional television news crew that was inside the building rolling when this started. Because footage like that was so rare, it kind of elevated the story beyond being just a horrible tragedy, one of the worst fires in American history, to being something seen all around the world. I think it's fair to say that probably hundreds of millions of people saw this video. People I talked to later for the book saw it. One guy saw it on a remote island in Greece. Think of that, a fire in Rhode island making news halfway around the world. So I was like many people who just saw it on tv.

But this part of Rhode island, this is your hometown. And you've been inside the Station nightclub. What was your memory of the place?

I remember a club that was kind of dingy. It smelled like old beer and cigarettes. Typical roadside dive bar. But you know what? It was fun. And people don't remember because of the tragedy, that this was a place where People came to have a good time. Working class people, waitresses, people who moved furniture, people who worked at gas stations. They would go there for their time off, let their hair down and party. It was a party place.

So if this fire was so well covered, why did you decide to make this the subject of your book, Trial by Fire? What were the unanswered questions for you?

There were many unanswered questions. Part of it was because there was never trial, not a criminal trial, not a civil trial. And because the facts were not all laid out for people to consider. They only got the government's version of what happened. So only the government was able to say their side of the case. And you didn't hear from anyone else. So when I would go home to see my family, because they also still live there, they asked questions about this. They raised the idea that they didn't hear all of the facts. And they were right because there had never been a trial. None of the information from the other side, conflicting information, was ever put before the public. And frankly, in a situation where you have such a one sided version of the story, it really relies on the fourth estate, the media, to question what the government has to say with their version of events. And that really didn't happen.

It's interesting that you bring up the phrase conflicting information, because in a crisis like this, there are many times in which stories do not match, even eyewitness stories. Gina Russo is an example of this. Can you tell us how well I.

Think Gina Russo is? Well, she's an amazing person. First of all, you need to know that about her. She was one of the worst injured in the fire who survived. Her personal tale of survival and then eventually recovery, then leading the effort to help other people who suffered in the fire and eventually went on to help create a memorial for the people who perished in the fire. She's an amazing person, but from her perspective, she sees the fire, she sees everyone consumed. She sees what happens through her own lens, but it's not necessarily the most factual lens. She wrote a book about her personal experience which is very heartfelt and I recommend that people read it. But some of the observations that she made go into the realm of being kind of sensational. Well, I'll give you one example. So when the fire starts, she and her boyfriend Freddy make their way to the stage door exit. He's very aware instantly that this is a problem, that there's danger. But not everyone was. Remember, this fire was caught on videotape. So we know second by second what actually happened. The Fire starts. And for the first 30 seconds after the fire is raging, people actually think it's part of the show. This is pyrotechnics that started this fire. He, early on, sees danger and tries to go out the stage door, but the stage door is closed. And there's a person there whose job it is to keep the stage door closed during a show because of complaints from the neighbors about the noise. So that person says, no, you gotta go out the other way. And so they did. And unfortunately, Freddie didn't make it. And Gina was terribly burned. But in her retelling of the story, it takes a bit of a turn where she believes, and I do believe she believes this, that bouncer turned away from the door because she was a regular person, that the stage door was only for famous people to go out. And she actually says something in the book about like, this person decided that we were not worth saving. There's compelling evidence that that's not what happened. We hear from the bouncer in his testimony before the grand jury. We see a photograph of the bouncer with his back to the stage when it's fully engulfed in flames. And it's quite clear he's standing there with a cigarette in his mouth. He has no idea that there's a fire raging. This is a man who then becomes vilified. He becomes one of the villains of the fire, when, in fact, he lost his own wife in that fire. And also because we know this happens second by second, we know that there's no way there could have been that type of thought going into anyone's mind, that some will live and some will die.

Another person whose motivations, I suppose, were questioned were Those of Channel 12 videographer Brian Butler. What did he do that night, and how did some people misconstrue his actions?

So a little bit of context here. Why was there a professional TV news crew inside that nightclub when the fire started? Well, they were doing a story, kind of a Could it happen here Story based on public venue safety. There had been a tragedy in a nightclub in Chicago days earlier. So the TV station decided they were gonna do this story. Brian Butler, a TV news photojournalist, was assigned to go to this club and shoot what's called B rol. B roll is kind of generic pictures, and it go with the story to help cover the audio track. And his job was to get pictures of people drinking, ordering from the bar, hanging out. Well, he was finished getting all the footage he needed, and so he decided that he would hang out. He knew that Great White was coming up and he thought, you know what? I think the guys back at the TV station would probably get a kick out of this footage. So even though he didn't need it for his piece, he set up his camera in the back of the room and he was rolling before the band started their set. And so you see second by second the flames go up, the pyrotechnics, the place getting on fire. And that's why we know that for 30 seconds people didn't move because they thought it was part of the show. We know all of this because of that footage from Brian Butler. When it becomes clear that this is a real fire and people are in danger, he backs up. You can see from the camera, the camera never stops rolling, that he's pushed out in the swarm of humanity and back outside. And he continues to take video because that's his job. He's a TV news reporter. He had no idea that people were really in mortal danger. In fact, nobody really did until much later in the night when it became clear that the people had perished. But at that point, he's a journalist, he's doing his job. There's a fire, you shoot the fire and he goes outside and you can see him getting the various angles of it. He does not know, I think, fully what's going on until later when you look at this footage and you see the details of what's going on. But so what happens is in the public's mind, here's a guy, because afterwards we know that so many people have died who videotaped when he should have gone in there and saved people. Kind of like the classic, like, how could you be there watching people suffer and taking video of it. But I would say that he didn't know people were suffering. He didn't know people were dying. He was just doing what he's supposed to do, which is get footage. And you hear him talk to the TV station through their two way radio system, because again, the camera never stops rolling. You hear him saying, you know, we got a big fire here, come send more people. So that's in his mind what he's doing. He's covering the fire. Now this was misconstrued later to be that he was some sort of villain, that he had just watched as people perished just so he could get some good videotape. But that's not really what happened. Being a person who worked in TV news for many, many years, I can tell you that if you were photog at a fire, you take pictures of the fire and that's what he did.

Now you have another close connection to this tragedy in that station. Nightclub co owner Jeffrey Doderian worked for you at one time. How well did you know him and why do you think he agreed to talk to you for your book?

Well, you know, it's going on almost 30 years now since all of this happened. But many of the key players in this tragedy worked for me. I ran a newsroom in Providence, Rhode island, and it's a very small state, very parochial. Brian Butler, the photographer who shot the infamous footage, he worked for me. Jeffrey Dudarian was a reporter in our newsroom. He worked for me, one of the people who lost her son in the fire, receptionist at the TV station. We worked together. So there were all these different connections to the fire, which is not unusual in a state like that. Everybody knows everybody. What I remember about Jeffrey when he was somebody who worked for me was he was a very tenacious reporter. He was the fight dog you'd send out to go after the bad guys. So when there was a perp walk at the courthouse, you would send Jeffrey because he would be the one who would walk down the street and say to the person, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? And so it was a remarkable twist of fate when after this fire, Jeffrey became the person who reporters hounded and said, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it?

After this tragedy, there's an understandable and desperate need to find those responsible for it, to point a finger, blame. How do you think the Dardarians were treated in the aftermath of the fire?

Well, while the fire is still happening and they haven't even determined what has happened yet, they're still finding bodies, they're still at the scene. Already they have decided who is going to be guilty for this. The local police chief actually goes on television and says that the nightclub owners and Jeffrey was a co owner with his brother Michael, would be held responsible for this, that they were going to take the fall, they were going to be indicted. I'm watching this at my home in San Francisco on cnn and I see this and I immediately think, wait a minute, we don't know what happened. Not one minute of actual investigation has been done. And already the person leading the investigation has decided who's guilty. That got my attention. But also it had an implication by doing that. So if you're suddenly accused of a crime before they done any investigation, your lawyer is going to say to you, hey, you can't talk anymore to these people. They've already decided you're guilty. And so at that moment the nightclub owners basically don't talk anymore until they talk to me for this book many many years later.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Scott James]

A grand jury was convened after the station nightclub fire to look into what happened. Explain for our listeners the process of discovery that unfolded.

So the grand jury, a secret grand jury, starts to look at the evidence in this case. And the grand jury is put together just six days after the fire. So less than a week they start hearing evidence. And so people come in who were witnesses of the fire and what happened that night, and they start telling their story. It's a massive gathering of information. I mean, think about it. 100 people are dead, 230 people are hurt. So you have a lot to unpack. You have a lot of people to talk to. So it becomes very clear very early in the process of the grand jury that the prosecutors have already decided to focus all of their attention only on a few people. And that would be the nightclub owners, Michael and Jeffrey Dudarian and Daniel Beakley, who's the manager roadie for the band Great White. He lit the explosives that started the fire. The so you actually hear from the jurors themselves who are a little bit incredulous. They're like, okay, why are we only really focusing all of our attention on these three guys? It seems like a lot of people had a role in being culpable for this. For example, the nightclub was a death trap. It was basically filled with this foam. It was supposed to be for soundproofing, but the foam itself was highly flammable. It was like solid gasoline. It was on the ceilings and on the walls. Well, all right, so who put that foam in there? Where did it come from? Are those people responsible? What about the fire inspector who actually did an inspection multiple times and there's a piece of paper where it says all okay. He has written the words all okay. So he gave this place a passing grade for being fire safe. And in fact, it was the complete opposite. Hey, what about the band? The band that set off the pyrotechnics because they were trying to relive their old stadium days. They set off 15 foot fireworks in a club that only had 12 foot ceilings. So you actually hear from the grand jurors themselves who are pushing back on the attorney general's folks, saying, okay, why is the focus only on these guys? And there are some interesting answers. One of the things that got my attention was that when it came to the firing spectator, for example, who a lot of people think he should have been held accountable. And the argument as to why he wouldn't be is just fascinating. Basically, the prosecutors say that, look, this guy, maybe he didn't do his job, and maybe not doing his job led to the deaths of these people. But if we went after every state employee or government employee who didn't do their job in this state, then who would want to be a government worker? An incredible spin on why that person wasn't held accountable.

So you've read these thousands of pages of court documents from the grand jury investigation. What are some of the things that leapt out at you? Maybe we can start with the foam.

So basically, the nightclub was filled with this highly flammable foam. And there were two types of foam, Sound foam. Sound foam is supposed to be flame retardant by law. And then there's other foam that's used for packing and that is not required to be flame retardant. And that is what will go up like a match being thrown into a bucket of gasoline. So this club, instead of having sound foam, it had the highly flammable foam on the walls. If you saw one next to another, you would not know. As a layman, but also an expert Would not know basically by touch or look which was which. So why did the Nyclo Motors put this highly flammable foam on the wall? They ordered sound foam. And we know this because there's a document that shows that they asked for an ordered sound foam, but where they got instead was packing foam. And it became the crucial part of the criminal charge against the nightclub owners. The way it was spun again was to make villains out of the nightclub owners, that it was cheaper. They paid $575 for this foam to put on the walls. They wouldn't know if that was more or less depending on what you were ordering. All they knew was that they asked for sound foam and they would deliver something else. So this document that shows they actually ordered sound foam, it was buried inside thousands and thousands of pages of documents that were given to the defense. And then eventually I was able to see them. It was actually that document that made me realize this was a bigger story than the one that the public had been led to believe. It's what convinced me that in fact the public had not really been told the truth about this. Now the document itself did not come from the Dadarians, and this has been misreported even fairly recently as one of these he said, she said situations. They're saying that this is a document that came from the Dadarians and therefore it should be suspect as to it validity. But in fact the Dadarians copies of all of their paperwork went up in flames when the nightclub went up in flames. So the only copy that existed was the copy at American Foam, the company that sold the foam. The only one who could get that was the government. How do I know this? Because it became part of the grand jury documents that the government submitted. And when I saw this document, I remember saying to the nightclub ownership, who has seen this besides me? And they said, well, it came from the government. They were the ones who had it. But the public didn't see it. And so therefore a story has been allowed to foment for years that the brothers irresponsibly ordered highly flammable foam. We don't know why the nightclub owners were given highly flammable packing foam instead of the sound foam that they were ordered. There are a lot of theories about this. One would be that it was simply a mistake inside the company, that the order was filled out incorrectly when it was processed. Some mistake happened there. They didn't send over deadly foam because they were trying to hurt people. We don't convict people of crimes unless there's intent. And in this case, I can't see intent by anyone. Even the irresponsible people with the band or the band themselves, they didn't intend for anyone to be hurt. It's an accident that happened. A lot of things went wrong simultaneously. There's a lot of little bits of culpability here that add up to a terrible tragedy.

What did you learn about the prosecution's investigation into the use of pyrotechnics at the club, other than this one night?

Well, one of the things that's been talked about and it's used against the defendants is something that, on the face of it, can't possibly be true. The argument was made by the government and in the media that at the nightclub they were doing this all the time, that they were shooting off fireworks like this all the time. So the implication there is that these people were incredibly irresponsible, that they put people's lives in danger on a regular basis. The problem with that theory is that, you know, if you throw a match into a bucket of gasoline, it's going to burn every single time. Not just sometimes, not just on Tuesdays, it's going to burn every single time. So if they had been doing pyrotechnics like this inside that nightclub with that flammable material on the wall, it would have burned before then.

The judge who sentenced the dadarians, Michael to four years and Jeffrey to 500 hours of community service and three years of probation, did he get access to this grand jury evidence at the time?

That's a great question. I think the judge could have had access to anything he wanted to have. But remember, there was a plea bargain done here between the defendant's and the Attorney General's office. And this was presented to the judge, and it was the judge's decision whether or not to accept this or accept this. And that became the crucial issue was, do we want to go through all this evidence? Do we want to have this trial? And it's pretty much understood that absolutely no one wanted to have the trial. Not the defendants, not the prosecution. The only people who really wanted to have the trial were, frankly, the families of the victims and the survivors. They really wanted to have that day in court where everything was put before them so they could understand what happened. I'm one of the few people who's actually seen the photographs from the aftermath of the fire to see the bodies or some are unrecognizable, others, even more troubling, are completely recognizable. I'm not sure that family members understood that their demand to Have a trial would have ended up the way that they expected it to, because when you consider what they would have had to present as evidence, it would be very, very disturbing. So there was no criminal trial. So therefore, the evidence was never presented for the public or the families to see. And the feeling was, after that plea bargain was made, was that, well, there at least will be a civil trial, because there's going to be a ton of lawsuits over this, and then all the facts will be presented then. But that also was settled. And so even at that moment, they didn't get access to any of the information other than what the government said had happened.

[Lindsey Graham]

So without a criminal or even a civil trial, no one really knew what happened inside the club. How did this fire become such a tragedy? It seems like it was a perfect storm of sorts. How did it get so bad? And was anyone truly culpable?

[Scott James]

I think in this particular fire, probably several things went wrong at the same time. And had one of those things not gone wrong, everyone would have survived. So you could say that all of those mistakes, that there's accountability to be had on each of them, but this was an accident. Nobody intended for anyone to be hurt. Villainy, villain in the background, who schemed to make this happen. They're all just mistakes that, when they add up in total, killed 100 people. So, you know, a good example is the fire code. And why weren't the sprinklers inside that building? We know that sprinklers would have saved every single person because it happened only days earlier in Minneapolis. Nearly the same thing. A band set off fireworks inside a nightclub. The nightclub caught on fire, but because that one had sprinklers, all that happened was people got wet. They all lived. There's one small example. If the band had not lit off fireworks, then, everyone would have lived. Now, were they intending to hurt people when they did those fireworks? Of course not. They were intending to have a great show. The nightclub was approved for a capacity of 404 people. They had four exits. That should have been enough to get everybody out safely. But it didn't work that way because where the fire started was at the stage. So the stage door, very quickly, there was a wall of fire between the patrons and that door. Remember, in 90 seconds, that building was fully engulfed. If you were inside that building after 90 seconds, when the fire started, you didn't make it out. And so we take 90 seconds, and now we subtract 30 seconds where people thought it was just part of the show. Now you have one minute to get hundreds of people out of there. And if you're in there, basically things are spontaneously exploding. You can hear explosions of the bottles of Alco that are exploding because of this heat. So you were not going to live in that situation if you were there for more than 90 seconds. The few people who did survive were on the floor. There was one gentleman who was covered, he fell on the floor and other people fell on him in like a big pile and they all died. But those corpses that he was under, they saved him from being burned by the fire. So that's the only scenario where somebody was in there for a very long time and lived. So if the headcount had been kept smaller, the capacity was smaller, maybe there would be a chance for more to get out. But that was what the law said. This is how many people could be in there at that moment. So you go through this whole list of the what ifs, what if this, what if that would have been different. And if any of those things had been different, then no one would have died. So there's plenty of culpability and responsibility to go along. But is it criminal? That's the question in this case.

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[Scott James]

You.

[Lindsey Graham]

Mentioned that there are a lot of what ifs in this tragedy. Many things that had they been different, the fire may not have turned out to be such the tragedy that it was. One of those is the fire code. Had it been different, more stringent, then lives may not have been lost. So what impact did this fire have on fire safety codes afterwards?

[Scott James]

This fire has probably saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives for several reasons. First of all, when people saw that video, it was a wake up call. So many people thought, my goodness, I need to check where the exit is when I go to some public event. I mean, I do it now. A lot of people do it now. How do I get out? In the case of the other issue is that because we know second by second by second how this fire evolved. It has taught firefighters and fire investigators more about how a fire spreads and what could be done to prevent that. And they've changed fire codes as a result. If you work as a fire investigator in the United States, you have studied this case because of that video. On the issue of foam, for example, the flammable foam, the foam company, of course, denied any responsibility for this, but in the end, they paid $6.3 million in a settlement and they changed their procedures. Now there are warning labels on the foam that is flammable so that you know that if that's what's been delivered to you, that's what you're getting. So up and down the line, there have been improvements in fire code and fire safety because of this fire.

You also have your own personal experience with soundproofing foam.

I do. So this goes years later, I'm working on this investigation and on this book. And I'm part of a writer's group, kind of a co working space for writers in San Francis. And at some point we think about doing soundproofing so that the writers can concentrate a little bit more. And so we look at ordering foam and we find a product that is sold as being fire retardant because it's used for indoor use, for soundproofing. So I order it and just some sample sheets to see if we're going to use it or not. And before the handyman starts working with it, I say to him, look, let's just do an experiment. Let's see if this will light on fire. So he takes his Bic lighter and we videotape this to be sure. And it goes up like a torch. This is foam being sold as flame retardant as something you put in your home for your kids recording studio. So I posted a review and I included that videotape and warned people not to buy this product. That's the most I could do on my own to warn people about something that's highly dangerous. So this is years later. This is after the fire. This is after all of these people were killed because of foam. And still the dangerous foam is out.

Your book came out in 2020. What was the reaction to it?

Well, the CBS News program 48 Hours Read the book and decided to adapt it for an episode of their program. They did an excellent job, I have to say, very powerfully, emotionally written. In fact, it would be the finalist for the National Emmy Award. But it's different than doing a book. When you do a book, you're kind of laying out a bunch of facts and letting the reader decide, you know, who's guilty, not guilty, if anyone's guilty. But television is more like a blunt instru. And so very effectively, they put out the evidence to a point where I think a lot of people concluded that it was an exoneration of the nightclub owners. And it didn't help that on tv you had the attorney general who was asked about, for example, that document I spoke about, the one that ordered the foam, that said sound foam. And they tried to introduce this to him, and he doesn't have a good response. He's like, I don't want to hear about any of this. It basically makes the. It makes the government look bad. And so that airs. And there's a reaction. And so, because the Daddarin brothers, the nightclub owners, are basically seen as, you know, maybe the story wasn't everything that the public had been led to believe. Now, they have been devastated by this fire. Every single person who was there that night has been devastated by this fire. So even though you might say, were they really guilty criminally of what they were convicted of, there's a great question about that talking to them. They have always felt responsible, as they would say it was their name on the club, so to speak. So they have felt personal culpability, and it has changed their lives, ruined their lives to a certain extent. But after it goes on tv, things change a little bit. They start to reclaim their lives. And Jeffrey Dudarian, who was a really capable TV news reporter, who had left the business completely, he gets back on tv. He is back on TV now as a TV news reporter, a profession that he had walked away from. And frankly, he was embittered about because when this tragedy happened, he literally was the star TV news reporter. And the next day Was the villain.

At the beginning of this discussion, you.

[Lindsey Graham]

Mentioned the memorial that Gina Russo helped.

[Scott James]

Establish, where the club used to stand. What's it like to go there?

It's a living memorial, which is appropriate for a place where so many people died. She turned it into a park. It has plants, and it will go and grow for years. The way it was designed has a music theme to it. Basically, instead of headstones, they have the names and im of each of the people who perished on things that look like little speakers, the speakers that you would see at a rock concert. And you kind of walk along these paths, and in the paths you meet all 100 people. It's an incredibly moving scene. And it was done by volunteers, People who were the victims families and the survivors. They were the ones who spearheaded this, raised the money. One of the sad facts about this story is that because the victims were mostly working class people, the waitresses, the movers, the people who worked at gas stations, these are not people who had a lot of clout with charities, so to speak. You know, the traditional institutions that might help people like this simply didn't. FEMA did not step up. There was some initial help at first to help them get on their legs that paid for, like, funerals and some hospital costs. But these were people who were seriously hurt and needed a lifetime of support. They didn't get that. So what Gina Russo does after she comes out of the hospital is she helps organize a fund to help people who need help. So this is the victims of the fire are raising money for other victims to help them survive. And this goes on for years. The station family fund. And then eventually, when there is a payout from settlements, from lawsuits, that kind of winds down. And then she. She winds back up again to build this memorial so that people will be remembered. The settlements are something we should talk about because they are highly controversial. It took nearly seven years to get a settlement in this case. And when it finally was all said and done, it was $176 million, which sounds like an incredible amount of money. However, lawyers pocketed about 59 million of that, according to the victims families and the survivors. And unfortunately, because so many of them were not people who were terribly sophist sophisticated when it came to some of these things, they were victimized by people who basically went to them while the process was still happening and said, hey, I will pay you x amount of dollars in cash if I can get your settlement when it finally happens. Well, the settlements came out to have an average about $200,000 per person. And some of these people got an advance payment of like $25,000 in exchange for giving up their 200,000. So they were exploited even in the settlement aspect. So Gina, she's an angel. Gina Roosa is an angel for what she did for the people when they were hurt, but also how she tried to create some sort of level of peace, I guess, with this memorial. But it is a serene place, and it makes you think about what happened to all these people and think about perhaps to prevent something like this from happening again.

Part of the memorial is a timeline of other fires. The Coconut grove fire in 1942, Beverly Hills Supper Club in 1977. Certainly, fires are not just a problem of the past. What do you think we have still to learn?

The memorial includes this timeline, and it's really fascinating how they do it. They go back to awful previous fires like Coconut Grove, where 400 and some odd people died, and then to Beverly Hills supper club in 1977. We have 165 people who died. It was after the Beverly Hills sepulchre of fire that we have developed kind of the modern fire codes that we had today. And yet 100 people still perished in Rhode Island. So the timeline goes to show how lessons were not learned before this fire. And then this fire happens, and it goes through details about what unfolded, sometimes by seconds, minutes and months. But afterwards, after this fire, they go and talk about fires that have happened since then. Less than a year later, there was a horrific fire in Brazil that killed hundreds of people. And then as recently as 2016, you had the ghost ship fire in Oakland. A different scenario in some ways, but kind of the same in another. This is a highly dangerous building that had not been managed by the government. Even though they were warned that it was a death trap, the government failed to intervene and do its job like it failed to intervene and do its job in rhode Island. And 36 young people perished in that one. So you want to say that lessons were learned both before and after, but it's not so clear that that's true. Whereas you might be able to adapt your own personal behavior and say, I'm going to look for those exits when I go to a place, or I'm not going to go to a place that's doing pyrotechnics in the big picture, it's difficult to say what has changed for people because people are still dying in these situations.

Well, Scott James, thank you so much for talking to me on American Scan.

Well, thank you, Lindsey.

[Lindsey Graham]

That was my conversation with veteran journalist Scott James. He's the author of Trial by a devastating tragedy, 100 lives lost and a 15 year search for the truth from Wonder Eat. This is episode four of our series on the Station Nightclub Fire in our next season. At the height of his fame in the late 1970s, Muhammad Ali refused to serve in the US army, citing his beliefs as a member of the Nation of Islam. Convicted of draft evasion and stripped of his heavyweight boxing title, Ali found himself at the center of the era's deep divisions over race, civil rights and the Vietnam War, all while he waited for the Supreme Court to decide his case. If you're enjoying American scandal, you can unlock exclusive seasons on Wondery Binge new season first and listen completely ad free when you join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out A [e-mail] survey American Scandal is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Granford, Airship. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker. Our senior interview producer is Peter Arcuni. Sound designed by Gabriel Gould. Music by Lindsey Graham produced by John Reed. Managing producer Joe Florentino. Senior producers Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Development by Stephanie Jens. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marshall Louie and Aaron O'Flaherty. For wondering.

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He was hip hop's biggest mogul. The man who redefined fame, fortune and the music industry.

[Scott James]

The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs.

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Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about.

[Lindsey Graham]

Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party. So yeah, that's yourself.

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But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down.

[Scott James]

Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a.

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Three count indictment charging Sean Combs with.

[Scott James]

Racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was up.

[Lindsey Graham]

I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses.

[Scott James]

I'm disgusted.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm so sorry.

[Scott James]

Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

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