American Scandal — The Massacre at My Lai | Interview: Rules of Engagement—How My Lai Changed the US Military

Podcast: American Scandal (Wondery)
Host: Lindsey Graham
Guest: Fred Borg (retired Army lawyer, regimental historian of the Judge Advocate General Corps)
Date: September 9, 2025
Episode: 5

Overview

This episode explores the profound and lingering impact of the My Lai massacre on the U.S. Army, its culture, and the broader military justice system. Host Lindsey Graham interviews Fred Borg, an army legal expert and historian, about the root causes of the atrocity, how the military reckoned with the events, and what changes were made (or not) to ensure such a tragedy could never happen again. Together, they explore issues of leadership, rules of engagement, legal and moral responsibilities, and the enduring human and institutional challenges of warfare.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Aftermath: How My Lai Shook the U.S. Army

• Moral and Institutional Crisis: The massacre at My Lai "nearly wrecked the U.S. army" by destroying public trust and morale. Graphic photos published in Life magazine made the atrocity impossible to ignore and deeply hurt the Army's reputation.

  “When I say My Lai nearly wrecked the Army, I’m saying that the war crime was so shocking that it really hurt the reputation of the army among the American people.” — Fred Borg [03:44]

• Catalyst for Change: The fallout forced the military to examine its practices, ethics, and leadership, becoming a pivot point in how the Army addressed war crimes and command responsibility.

Root Causes of the Massacre

• Critical Failures Identified:

  • Leadership: William Calley’s poor leadership highlighted systemic failures in officer selection and training.
  • Racism and Dehumanization: Racist attitudes and dehumanization of the Vietnamese made such atrocities possible.
  • Flawed Intelligence and Training: Soldiers were sent in based on incorrect intelligence, and their training on the laws of war and distinguishing enemy from civilian was minimal to none.

  “The number one factor is poor leadership, as epitomized by William Calley… The real failure at My Lai… was leadership.” — Fred Borg [05:13] “You may not, you should not kill unarmed and unresisting civilians.” — Fred Borg [05:47]

Rules of Engagement: Then and Now

• Vietnam Era Deficiencies:

  • Soldiers were governed by the Geneva Conventions but had scant, unclear, or poorly taught guidelines on targeting and use of force.
  • The “free fire zone” policy blurred the line between combatant and civilian, often with tragic consequences.

  “We didn’t have [rules of engagement] back during the Vietnam era… soldiers really weren’t sure how they should use force.” — Fred Borg [06:36] “This was a big mistake because often you’d end up killing civilians who… had bad luck to be there.” — Fred Borg [07:45]

• Evolution of Military Law:

  • Modern conflicts (Iraq, Afghanistan) have forced codification of rules of engagement: soldiers may only target those with demonstrated hostile intent.
  • Training is now more focused and recurrent, with lawyers (“JAGs”) advising on operations in real-time.

  “What the American military has done is said, okay, we’re going to have rules of engagement… you may not engage… unless that Afghan shows some sort of hostile intent.” — Fred Borg [11:25]

Lawful Orders, Responsibility, and Whistleblowing

• When Obedience is Not a Virtue:

  • Soldiers are legally obligated to disobey unlawful orders, but the risk is immense—disobedience can be punished if the soldier is “wrong.”
  • Reporting war crimes was required but perilous; in 1968 there were no whistleblower protections.

  “Part of the problem is that it’s very, very difficult for a soldier to decide to disobey an order… What do you do when you get a clearly illegal order?” — Fred Borg [16:53]

• The True Hero: Hugh Thompson:

  • Helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson intervened to stop the massacre and reported it up the chain of command—then suffered vilification and threats.

  “I think Hugh Thompson is the real hero of My Lai… he did save many lives. But he did pay for it personally because of people who criticized him for what he did.” — Fred Borg [20:45]

  • Whistleblower protections have since evolved—but were nonexistent then.

    “At the time in 1968, I don’t think there really was any sort of whistleblower kind of protection.” — Fred Borg [23:06]

How the Truth Emerged Despite the Cover-up

• Ron Ridenhour – The Relentless Investigator:

  • Former soldier Ron Ridenhour heard rumors, wrote dozens of letters to officials (one finally reached the Army Chief of Staff), and forced an official probe.
  • The episode highlights the power—and rarity—of persistence in the face of institutional resistance.

  “If it hadn’t been for Ron Ridenhour, we wouldn’t know about it.” — Fred Borg [25:56]

Psychology of Atrocity: Bystander Effect & Dehumanization

• Groupthink, Banality of Evil, and Racism:

  • Social science experiments (e.g., Milgram) and Hannah Arendt’s writings explain how ordinary individuals enable or commit atrocities through conformity and dehumanization.

  “You tend to dehumanize the enemy… it’s easier to attack the enemy and kill the enemy.” — Fred Borg [26:19] “Dehumanization is always part of the war and you are never going to see it disappear.” — Fred Borg [28:31]

Accountability: The Failures of Justice

• William Calley’s Conviction—But Justice Unserved:

  • Only Calley was convicted and received a trivial sentence; higher-ups acquitted or charges mishandled.
  • Borg rejects the description of Calley as a scapegoat:

    “He wasn't innocent. He's a murderer.” — Fred Borg [30:08]

  • The Army, says Borg, “just wanted to get the whole sordid mess behind it and move on.”

  “Justice was probably not done.” — Fred Borg [31:56]

The Transformation of Military Legal Practice (JAG)

• Rise of the “Operational Lawyer”:

  • Before My Lai, lawyers were only marginally involved in military operations.
  • After, the JAG Corps began embedding lawyers with commands during planning and execution, ensuring compliance with the law of armed conflict.

  “Anytime a commander goes to war, lawyers go with him or her.” — Fred Borg [34:13]

  • Grenada (1983) marked a turning point where legal questions became operationally crucial and JAGs were recognized as indispensable in the field.

  “Grenada… is really the wake up call… you actually have to have your lawyers there, there on the ground with commanders.” — Fred Borg [34:54]

Lessons Learned and Ongoing Challenges

• Education, Training, Oversight:

  • Constant, realistic training on law of armed conflict is now standard.
  • Early intervention and legal oversight are prioritized to prevent atrocities from repeating.

  “Every army commits war crimes… What you have to make sure is… you have [no] institutional flaw… that’s allowing these war crimes to occur.” — Fred Borg [39:59]

• Reflections on Modern Cases and Pardons:

  • Recent high-profile war crimes prosecutions (e.g. Clint Lorance, Eddie Gallagher) were legally necessary to deter crimes, regardless of subsequent presidential pardons.

  “What’s important to me is that the cases were prosecuted… to deter others from committing these sort of war crimes.” — Fred Borg [42:31]

The Future of Warfare: Technology and Morality

• Dehumanization Through Distance—Drones and Future Battles:

  • The Russia-Ukraine war exemplifies a new era of drone-centric combat.
  • Technological distance may amplify “dehumanization” and lower the threshold for killing.
  • Law must continue to adapt to new technology and unintended consequences.

  “The technology takes you away from the face-to-face horrors of war… Without that… I think it gets easier to kill.” — Fred Borg [44:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership and Responsibility:

  "A better leader would have made sure that this war crime had not occurred." — Fred Borg [05:13]

• On the Limits of Training in Vietnam:

  "We didn’t do much in the way of training or education on obeying only lawful orders." — Fred Borg [07:55]

• On Hugh Thompson’s Stand:

  “He actually tells his gun crew in the helicopter, if you see Calley’s platoon…start pursuing some of these civilians, I’m telling you to open fire. I mean, this was shocking…” — Fred Borg [20:45]

• On the Army's Desire to Move On:

  “The army just wanted to get the whole sordid mess behind it and move on.” — Fred Borg [30:50]

• On Institutional Change and Prevention:

  “Maybe we can’t prevent war crimes, but we have to prevent something from My Lai ever happening again...” — Fred Borg [39:59]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:19] My Lai’s impact on the U.S. Army
• [05:13] Critical causes: leadership, racism, flawed intelligence
• [06:20] Rules of engagement during Vietnam
• [11:25] Modern approaches to distinguishing enemy from civilian
• [13:18] Lawful/unlawful orders and moral dilemmas
• [16:53] Reporting war crimes: then and now
• [20:45] The story and legacy of Hugh Thompson
• [23:54] Ron Ridenhour’s campaign to expose the cover-up
• [26:19] Psychology of atrocity: groupthink and dehumanization
• [30:08] Accountability: Calley’s conviction and military justice
• [32:25] History and evolution of JAG
• [34:54] Grenada and the changing role of military lawyers
• [39:59] Biggest lessons of My Lai; steps taken to prevent recurrence
• [42:31] Reflection on modern war crimes prosecutions and pardons
• [44:13] The rise of drones, future of warfare & dehumanization

Conclusion

The My Lai massacre serves as a grim benchmark for the U.S. military—one that catalyzed changes in military training, law, policy, and ethics. As Fred Borg repeatedly underscores, the threats of dehumanization, command failure, and institutional inertia never go away completely. The legacy of My Lai is a stark reminder that constant vigilance, education, and ethical leadership are required to uphold the laws of war, especially as combat and its technology evolve.

For those seeking to understand how My Lai happened—and how the U.S. Army responded—this conversation is essential listening.