A Century of Misjudgment: How the US Helped the CCP Survive, and Become Its Greatest Adversary | Xi Van Fleet

Summary

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Podcast Summary: American Thought Leaders – "A Century of Misjudgment: How the US Helped the CCP Survive, and Become Its Greatest Adversary"

Guest: Xi Van Fleet (Sheila Van Fleet), survivor of Mao's Cultural Revolution and co-author of Made in the Hidden History of How the US Enabled Communist China and Created Our Greatest Threat
Host: Jan Jekielek
Date: February 13, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, host Jan Jekielek sits down with Xi Van Fleet to discuss her new book and her personal experiences surviving China's Cultural Revolution. The conversation delves deeply into the history of the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) rise, America's pivotal and often unwitting role in enabling the CCP, and the nature of totalitarian ideology. Xi argues that a persistent lack of understanding about communism’s true character has led Western leaders, especially in the United States, to make critical errors—mistakes with dire consequences both for China and for global freedom.

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Major Discussion Themes

1. Authoritarianism vs. Totalitarianism

Key segment: [01:26]–[05:19]

• Xi Van Fleet: Totalitarianism is fundamentally different from mere authoritarianism.

  • "Authoritarianism is... dictatorship. They demand you do certain things... mostly leave you alone. Not totalitarianism... they demand not only you obey, but you have to believe in them... It's like a religion." ([02:00])
  • The CCP’s approach is akin to a theocracy, seeking to completely reform citizens’ thoughts—the process of "thought reform."

• Modern Parallels:

  • She draws a direct line between the indoctrination she experienced as a youth and the social pressures connected to woke ideology today, which she characterizes as totalitarian in nature: "Wokeism is also totalitarian in nature... it demands that you believe." ([04:05])

2. The Power of Indoctrination and Parallels to Modern America

Key segment: [05:44]–[08:58]

• Personal Testimony:

  • Xi recounts being swept up in Cultural Revolution madness, sincerely believing in the Party—never doubting its goodness.
  • She identifies with Americans protesting for what they think is noble: "I understand people going on the street today in Minneapolis... That's exactly what happened to the Red Guards." ([05:53])

• The Red Guards, many just teenagers, became a destructive force due to faith in Mao, culminating in violence against teachers and intellectuals—a pattern Xi warns could recur elsewhere if unchecked.

• Memorable statement on indoctrination:

  • "That’s the power of indoctrination. I was one of them... I always believed that the Party is always right." ([06:14])

3. The CCP’s Early History and America’s Role

Key segment: [10:50]–[16:07]

• Historic Roots:

  • American missionaries and Western ideas initially fueled anti-imperial reform in China, leading to the 1911 revolution and the Republic of China (now Taiwan).
  • Xi argues that American (and Western) mistakes, especially at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, triggered disillusionment with democracy and opened the door to communism:
    • "That turned everything just upside down overnight... Overnight, the sentiment from pro America to anti America, that paved the way for the red tide to sweep through China." ([14:07])

• Soviet Opportunism:

  • The Soviets filled the gap left by Western betrayal, introducing Marxism to a receptive population already frustrated with the West.

4. The United Front: Communist Infiltration Tactics

Key segment: [20:12]–[27:05]

• Explaining the Tactic:

  • The United Front, a strategy taught by the Soviets, involves communists infiltrating larger political movements from within, often unknown even to their supposed allies.
  • "Communists... are parasites. They absolutely attach themselves to a bigger, organize[d]... force, and then grow from within." ([22:32])

• Modern Example:

  • The Confucius Institutes in the US are highlighted as present-day United Front activities, using soft power and money to infiltrate universities and stifle open discussion about issues sensitive to the CCP.

• On the danger of financial incentives: "Greed and the money and greed will blur people's... view of what they're dealing with." ([26:54])

5. Critical Errors by the US and the West

Key segment: [33:27]–[35:24]

• Misjudging the CCP:

  • Xi highlights a consistent pattern: US policymakers and opinion-shapers repeatedly misread the CCP, perceiving them as mere agrarian reformers or as "not really communist."
  • Journalists and missionaries unwittingly served as tools for CCP propaganda. Edgar Snow’s Red Star Over China is given as a potent example:
    • "His book absolutely changed the perception of Chinese Communist Party in the West... He called them reformers." ([39:39])

• On the CCP’s “legitimacy”:

  • Xi disputes the popular Western notion that the CCP represents the Chinese people, emphasizing, "CCP is absolutely a foreign implant in China... They hijacked China." ([42:00])

6. The Destructive Nature of Communism

Key segment: [44:00]–[46:26]

• Communism as a Theocracy:
  • The ideology is a rigid belief system intent on erasing all traditions, religions, and competing worldviews.
  • "Communism... is a religion... because it sought to control not just a system... It really, really want[s] to control people's mind." ([44:00])

7. Nixon, Deng Xiaoping, and the CCP’s Survival

Key segment: [44:51]–[49:51]

• US Opening as CCP Salvation:

  • Xi describes Nixon's 1972 visit as a historical lifeline for the CCP, saving it from collapse at a critical moment:
    • "CCP was saved. Saved by no other than the President of United States, Richard Nixon." ([45:51])

• The Myth of Chinese Economic Reform:

  • Contrary to Western belief, Xi maintains Deng Xiaoping’s reforms were never meant to democratize China—only to secure CCP power:
    • "Deng Xiaoping never, never planned to have political reform. All he wanted was economic reform... to save this country..." ([52:17])

8. Today's Threats: CCP Influence Operations and US Complicity

Key segment: [49:51]–[56:56]

• CCP’s Global Ambitions:

  • America’s embrace of China since the 1970s has enabled CCP elites while harming ordinary Chinese and empowering a regime increasingly hostile to freedom worldwide.

• Modern United Front Activities:

  • Xi points to Chinese “police stations,” bio labs, intellectual property theft, United Front leaders, and CCP financial influence as elements of an ongoing infiltration campaign in the US and West.

• American Blind Spots:

  • The US has believed for decades that economic reform would ‘liberalize’ China; instead, it strengthened party control.

9. The Nature and Strategy of the CCP Today

Key segment: [56:56]–[62:41]

• Suppression of Religion and Dissent:

  • Religious freedom, Xi argues, is fundamentally incompatible with communism’s quasi-religious impulses. "In communist societies, it is this kind of quasi, false religion character that communism takes on. And so of course they have to suppress any other form of anything that would compete with that." ([57:57])

• Technological Control:

  • Compared to Mao’s reliance on informants and neighbors, the CCP now wields digital surveillance and a social credit system, stifling dissent more thoroughly than ever.

• CCP’s Fragility:

  • Despite outward power, the regime remains fragile, as demonstrated by constant purges and the leaders’ paranoia about threats from within.

• Key observation:

  • "Who do you think is the number one threat to the CCP? ... it's the Chinese people. It spends more money than the military... to control the population because they are scared of the people that they rule over." ([61:39])

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Key Quotes & Timestamp Highlights

• On totalitarian indoctrination:

  • "You can't even pretend you believe. They demand that. And that's my experience, my first 26 years experience in China." – Xi Van Fleet ([02:45])

• On the Red Guards and parallels to America:

  • "I understand people going on the street today in Minneapolis... believing they're doing something noble. And that's exactly what happened to the Red Guards." – Xi Van Fleet ([05:53])
  • "That's the power of indoctrination. I was one of them... I always believed that the Party is always right." – Xi Van Fleet ([06:14])

• On CCP tactics:

  • "Communists... are parasites. They absolutely attach themselves to a bigger... party or force, and then grow from within." – Xi Van Fleet ([22:32])

• On American aid to the CCP:

  • "Because they never understood communism, they made all the possible mistakes and eventually helped the CCP to take Over China." – Xi Van Fleet ([00:36])

• On Nixon's visit:

  • "CCP was saved. Saved by no other than... Richard Nixon." – Xi Van Fleet ([45:51])

• On the CCP’s threat:

  • "CCP or communism is a snake. You can save it, you can help it, but it will bite you because its nature... is that it's going to destroy you." – Xi Van Fleet ([00:56] and [68:41])

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Conclusion: Lessons and Warnings

Key segment: [63:43]–[69:06]

• Xi’s Central Thesis:

  • American ignorance of communism's nature has repeatedly enabled the CCP’s survival and rise.
  • "We have to look inside rather than look outside to have solutions."
  • History must be learned—her book is an effort to reveal the “hidden history” of US-CCP relations.

• What is most misunderstood?:

  • That communism is not just a political system, but a militant, globalist, quasi-religious movement determined to reshape (or destroy) everything in its path.
  • "Communism is globalism. And in its DNA, it wants not just change human nature, it wants to take over the world. When I was growing up, we were always told our goal is to liberate the humanity." ([67:09])

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Final Takeaways

• The episode draws crucial historical parallels and lessons, warning that failing to understand communism’s nature leaves societies vulnerable to destructive infiltration and manipulation.
• Xi Van Fleet’s first-hand testimony, historical analysis, and warnings urge Americans to rethink both their history and current policy toward China and the totalitarian playbook that persists today.

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Transcript

[Sheila Van Fleet]

I understand people going on the street today in Minneapolis, fighting their eyes, believing they're doing something noble. And that's exactly what happened to the Red Guards.

[Jania Kellogg]

So in the Cultural Revolution which you lived through, you saw that in real time.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

When I was growing up, we were always told our goal is to liberate the humanity.

[Jania Kellogg]

Xi Van Fleet is a survivor of Mao's Colony Cultural Revolution and co author of Made in the Hidden History of How the US Enabled Communist China and Created Our Greatest Threat.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Because they never understood communism, they made all the possible mistakes and eventually helped the CCP to take Over China.

[Jania Kellogg]

From the founding of the CCP in 1921 to today, she breaks down how America aided the survival and rise of its greatest adversary.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Ccp, or communism, is a snake. You can save it, you can help it, but it will bite you because it's nature. The nature is that it's going to destroy you.

[Jania Kellogg]

This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jania Kellogg. She Van Fleet, such a pleasure to have you back on American Thought Leaders.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Thank you, Ste, so much for having me back for the third time.

[Jania Kellogg]

Well, and you always have incredibly important things to say. And congratulations on your new book, which I will also say is very important and kind of dovetails with the book that I have coming out as well. So I find it particularly poignant. You mentioned something in there that a lot of people don't understand. But I also covered totalitarianism is distinct from just your run of the mill authoritarian dictatorship. How is it different?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, I think this is important because I think a lot of people use it interchangeably and a lot of people use authoritarianism to describe the ccp. There is a big difference and I covered that in my book. And so the difference is that authoritarianism is of course, dictatorship. They demand you do certain things and they demand that you obey and mostly leave you alone. Not totalitarianism, a demand not only you obey, but you have to believe in them. That means they have to control your mind and it's like a religion. So I think that totalitarianism is more like theocracy. Like in Iran, like in China. They absolutely demand that you change your mind. That's called thought reform. And believe their lies. You have to believe. You can't even pretend you believe. They demand that. And that's my experience, my first 26 years experience in China. I think that's important to understand it. CCP and the people running Iran, they are totalitarianism.

[Jania Kellogg]

This is super interesting because I think that through pushing this mass propaganda into the system, this Is something that was a huge lesson to me over the last 10 years, how powerful propaganda can be that it will change the minds of people. I always thought that people never really accepted propaganda. It was kind of like people knew that it probably wasn't true, but just kind of were, okay, whatever, we'll run with it because they have all the guns. But no, it actually changes people.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Right.

[Jania Kellogg]

When it's pushed in so hard through the system. So in the Cultural Revolution, which you lived through, you saw that in real time.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. And here too, I think I want people to realize wokeism is also totalitarian in nature because it demand that you believe. The demand you believe. You can't just say, okay, women can be men, but you have to believe it. And they have been very successful in changing people's mind. So it is totalitarian in nature. So that's why the underlying link is communism, Marxism.

[Jania Kellogg]

Interesting. Well, so a fine point here. Okay. I think you're exactly right in that they demand that you believe. But I don't think a lot of. I still think a lot of people don't quite believe, but they performatively believe. They pretend they believe because, well, it's a lot more convenient. And of course again, they have all the guns. Yeah, right. Or all the of the social power, let's say. Or a lot of the social powers is the case, say in the West. So it's an interesting distinction because they demand that you have to believe. But of course, not everybody. Some of it is pretty crazy. So not everybody believes. It's okay to just pretend hard that you believe. Right.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

It started that way. It's always in the Cultural Revolution how many people really believe. But they have to pretend because not to believe or showing that you doubt. And you can end up in gulags or even in execution side. And that is how they run their regime and how they have to do that in order to control your mind.

[Jania Kellogg]

Just very briefly before we talk about the details of the book, how did the Cultural Revolution affect you personally?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

I really start to think more and more that I understand. I really do. I understand people going on the street today in Minneapolis, fighting these eyes, believing they're doing something noble. And that's exactly what happened to the Red Guards. You can't say they just totally just have no idea what they're doing. They believe in it. And same thing like here, those who radical left, they believe they thought it something noble. And that's the power of indoctrination. I've seen that. I was one of them, even though I was not really Red Guy. I was too young. But I believed in the lies that I was told. I absolutely never doubt. I always believed that the Party is always right. The Party cannot be wrong. So what I do believe in the Party.

[Jania Kellogg]

And just very briefly, for those that might be uninitiated, the Red Guard. Tell me about who they were.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

The Red Guards and the kids. Yeah. During the Cultural Revolution, Mao need an army to carry out his revolution. And he can't use the army that look like a coup because his goal is to take down the ccp. What? Ccp? Yes. His goal is to take down the ccp.

[Jania Kellogg]

Run the spam. You get it. The Mao's goal was to take down the ccp. I hadn't heard that before. Tell me more.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, because he believed that he was no longer in control. He believed that his party was somehow not listening to him. So what to do? Get rid of them. All of them. From the central government all the way down to the village level. And so he need people to do it. He need an army, and he had an army. And that is tens of millions of Red Guards. The young people, they know nothing and they can't think critically. And they do one thing really well. Follow the water. So they did what Mao wanted them to do, to take down the ccp. They did.

[Jania Kellogg]

So how did that look like in real life? What did that mean? Well, what did these Red guards actually do?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

2020. That's what they did in the Cultural Revolution. Like what they did here in America. It's destroy everything, destroy statues, destroy communities. Because they're so emboldened. They were backed by people in power in China, they were backed by Mao. Mao claimed himself to be the Red Commander in Chief for the Red Guards. And here, the Democratic Party was behind those mobs, those rioters, those looters, everything. You don't have to imagine. You just think about 2020 in Minneapolis and 2026 in Minneapolis. That is what Red Guard looked like.

[Jania Kellogg]

Well, except that the Red Guard took it to kind of a whole different level. Right. Like we. I mean, I remember there was this three body problem. Remember there was this series that came out recently, not too long ago, where they really kind of showed what these Red Guards were doing. Right. And kind of. I was amazed that this landed on Netflix.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

I was too.

[Jania Kellogg]

Yeah.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

And I tweet about it because it's very true to life. That's very close to what happened.

[Jania Kellogg]

So my point is they were killing people. Literally, they were.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

They were killing people. And the killing started with the professors. Start with their teachers and principals. And so I would say we're not there yet. Very close, Very close. If we don't stop it, it won't take long for us to get there.

[Jania Kellogg]

And so what you're saying is this is a combination of indoctrination and sort of the understanding that there's institutional power behind you. The combination of those two things.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Absolutely. So I would think, I think most people probably will agree that Renee Goode did not prepare to die. I think he kind of like many others probably believed that there's no consequences. So yeah, and they absolutely feel that they are empowered by the but Democratic Party and by the people who urged them to go on the street, by the lieutenant governor who urged them to put your body on the line. And many of them probably did not think there was any consequences because there's no consequences in 2020 after all those riots. What happened to those people? We don't know nothing.

[Jania Kellogg]

So let's go back now to you make some really interesting. You did some really interesting research in your book. You're looking way back to even before the time where the Chinese Communist Party took power in 1949 in China that already there were kind of American interests that were basically supporting it. I did not know about this. Tell me more.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

I tried to do in my book to trace all the way back to the beginning. And it really started in the 1800, in the middle of 1800 when a lot of American missionaries or Western missionaries went to China to spread the gospel. At the same time they also brought with them the idea of democracy, the idea of constitutional government. And it's their work actually fueled the revolution of 1911 which overthrow the Qing Dynasty. And in 1920, 1912 created the Republic and it's called Republic of China 1912. And they tried their best. It's imperfect, it's far from being perfect, but it's tried to follow the model of America style government and it failed. But it survived and it's still here today. People don't think about it, it's still here today. Republic of China now is in Taiwan transitioned to a full democracy. So that was the beginning. But what happened? China was on the way to become a really potential, if I say potential to be really a republic. And the Asians first. But it was derailed. And that part of history is just astonishing. And who played that role to derail the whole potential? Woodrow Wilson.

[Jania Kellogg]

Well, but we know, I mean let's go before Woodrow Wilson got involved, I mean the Soviet Comintern was a little bit involved in here Okay, I mean, I say that glibly, right. But this was a project of the Soviet Union, right?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

No, actually it's the other way around. So the Western ideas came to China around the same time in the early 1900s, late 1800 and early 1900s, and the Enlightenment ideas, ideas of democracy, idea of freedom, and among them is also Marxism, but it did not make any attraction. People are more drawn to the Western idea and they call it Mr. De and Mr. Meaning science and democracy. They believe that's what China needed and that's what will save China and help China to modernize and to be independent from the foreign influence or control of the imperial West. And then something happened after World War the foreign powers got together in Versailles and that was the Paris peace talk. So China was very hopeful, thinking that they would get their land called Shandong Province back from the Germans. Instead it went to Japan. And because people are just so hopeful that Woodrow Wilson will help them with their demand, with their rightly cost of getting their land back from Germany, it did not happen. And that turned everything just upside down overnight. Overnight, the sentiment from pro America to ant America, that paved the way for the red tide to sweep through China. That gave the opening to the Russians to come to China and eventually helped the radicals to form communist groups and in 1921 officially founded the Communist Party. So it's. Russia came second. So.

[Jania Kellogg]

But wouldn't. Okay just. It's a fine point. But they took advantage of an opening.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Exactly. The opening was because Chinese are disillusioned about Western style democracy. That is really the key point. And so basically set the stage ready for the Russians to come to China and eventually take over.

[Jania Kellogg]

Well, trace that for me. So now of course the Soviets came, they were doing their thing, but it didn't last that long in itself. Right. Like basically the Mao and the Chinese took control of the Communist Party at some point pretty quickly. Right.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

That is a long history. Actually, I think probably it's better to read the book because it's a lot of history. Actually the Russians not only took over the Communists because they helped to fund the Communists, they also took control of the Nationalists. And so because the leader of a Nationalist party, Sun Yang San, who was considered the founder of Chinese Republic, and so he was looking for help from the west and no one, everyone turned their back to him. So eventually he said, I have to go to Russia because no one was willing to help us. And at that time, actually the dominant thought in America is isolationism. Is China such a vast and a poor continent over there? It doesn't really matter to our national interests. It might be right. But they overlooked a very important factor. The Russians are ready to move in and they did.

[Jania Kellogg]

Absolutely. So we have two ways now that you explained that sort of America played a role in bringing us to today the way the Communist Party rules. There was very early on in America and frankly in the west, writ large. Right. A kind of love affair with communism and something that I've been increasingly learning more and more about, as I guess you could call it Lenin's evil genius and ability to push very attractive narratives out into the world. Very warm and pleasant sounding propaganda which was very acceptable to all sorts of people that were, you know, kind of disillusioned with their countries, disillusioned with their governments. And so, you know, it created this whole kind of group of people that were just very sympathetic even when atrocities started happening. So just kind of tell me about this whole picture.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yes, of course they are very good at finding out what is appealing at that time. What was appealing to the Chinese is nationalism, because they feel like humiliated by the west, by Woodrow Wilson particularly, because they put so much faith in him believing that he would help China because it's a self determination. It's just really encouraging everyone. So what they say is that, look, the Western imperialists cannot be trusted, but we'll help you, will help you with your struggle against them. And it just sounds like music to the intellectuals ears of that time. And so they absolutely said, this is our way out. And so they believe that the Russian Revolution gave them the hope for China's future.

[Jania Kellogg]

Explain to me how the Nationalists were also somehow, you know, co opted by the Soviets alongside the Communist Party itself, which was fighting them because Se Yong.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

San could not get any help. And he want to.

[Jania Kellogg]

But like how did it, how did that manifest? Like what I mean, it makes it sound like Soviets were fighting the Soviets or something.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

This is very difficult to explain. This will be the first united front. My book I covered, there's a whole chapter, covered a lot about united front, which is something that every American should know, a term that every American should be familiar with. But let's go to the beginning. It did not start now. It started way back. So when the Soviet Union helped to fund the Chinese Communist Party, it was very small, it was only 50 members. Guess who were the members? Do you think it's poor peasants or poor workers, the proletariat? No, they were intellectuals, some professors of Beijing University and their students. They're very small. While Nationalists, it's a mature party because they carried out the 1911 revolution they that overthrow the Qing Dynasty. So what they did is the Soviet. What they did is they helped the Nationalist Party. But there was a condition that you have to incorporate the Communists. And so basically their plan was that they let the Communists be part of the Nationalists and eventually take over from within. And they were almost successful until later the new leader of the Nationalist, Chiang Kai Shek realized the plan. They realized that the Communists have been infiltrating the party from within and have been really converted so many Nationalists into Communists. So in 1927 he made the decision to purge them and he killed like some 4,000 suspects because they did not know who was who. It was a very, very messy situation. So they killed 4,000, including communists and also some leftists, Nationalists. And that marked the split of these two. But for us to understand is that that's what Chinese Communists do, or Communists in general. They are parasites. They absolutely attach themselves to a bigger, organize bigger political force, party or force, and then grow from within and they are almost successful.

[Jania Kellogg]

So how does the United Front fit in and maybe explain what it is?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, so you can see from the first try that they implemented is work from within, undercover mostly. So it's an infiltration and influence operation. And a lot of the communists joined the Nationalists, but only a few on the top were known to the Nationalists like Mao was one of them. So they knew that the top leaders were Communists, but other people they don't know. So it's really. It's like a work from within. And that's what going on in America is the work from within. You don't know who they are and it's the influence. And then they leave no trace. A lot of people who are played have no idea that this happened to them. And so.

[Jania Kellogg]

So what happened to them?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

They absolutely took this stand and become the spokesperson for the ccp. And a lot of them were selling the or giving away the trade secrets. And a lot of them look at the Confucius Institute. What they did is that.

[Jania Kellogg]

So now we're going back to the present. Yeah, okay, right, yeah.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

I have been talking about the present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what they do is work from within. So how do people don't. A lot of people don't know. Okay. So for the Confucian Institute, money was such attractive offer. So a lot of universities let them in.

[Jania Kellogg]

Once you let them in, let me just qualify a little bit. So Confucius Institutes, for those that might not be familiar, were basically from China. Institutions connected themselves with university and Other educational institutions of America coming with generous money and also educational materials and basically creating a partnership ostensibly with no political orientation. But the reality was quite different.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, one of the few things is that you cannot talk about Tibet, you cannot talk about Uyghurs and you cannot criticize ccp. So there goes the free speech. So but they embed themselves in almost all universities and high schools and eventually now it's like everywhere. And so that's how they come in from within. And because you want the money, you wanted a donation, you say okay, it's okay, we don't talk about Hong Kong, we don't talk about Taiwan. But eventually you can talk about a lot of things. And that's how they kill free speech and that's how they influence the people's mind and think that CCP is just another country, another party.

[Jania Kellogg]

And it's very interesting, right, because there's this sort of, when there's this financial relationship, you're also sort of motivated to cover for it because you're getting this benefit. Right. Even if you, you're a little, you know, you may, if there wasn't the financial relationship, you might be a little more suspicious. You wouldn't have so much kind of invested if you will, of course.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

So it's greed and the money and greed will blur people's, you know, people's view of what they're dealing with.

[Jania Kellogg]

And so, you know, but when the United Front was started, absolutely had these goal of creating basically a pro communist united front among all sorts of people that were not officially communist. Basically. I think that's where the name or the idea came from. Right.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Again, talking about the idea, where it came from. From Lenin. Yeah, United Front, this idea and this tactic was created by Lenin. And of course the Soviets taught their students well in China.

[Jania Kellogg]

So the nationalists purge the communists. But we still end up getting the CCP taking over in 1949.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

This story is so absolutely fascinating. So after the purge and the CCP have to withdraw and went to mountains to become really bandits, that's what they are called, Red Bandits. But they're not going to give up. And that's something we have to learn. Communists do not give up. And Mao famous said a little spark will start prairie fire. So they have their little so called Soviet Republic in the mountains in southern China and they started to expand and call themselves basically opposition government. And Chiang Kai Shek was determined to get rid of them. So he tried five encirclement campaign and tried to wipe them out. And the fifth time he was successful and drove the Communists out of that area and started what now many people know, the Long March to escape. And they went westward and eventually landed ended in northern China, a place called Yan'. An. So from there on, the fight continued, because by then the Japanese started its aggression against China. And totally by accident, also by national demand, they have to start another united front, worked together, supposedly to fight against Japanese. That turned out to be another disaster. And that turned out to be really the cooperation that ended Nationalists and eventually, after civil war, drove them out of China to Taiwan. So twice they collaborated, and twice the Nationalists were deceived and eventually defeated and.

[Jania Kellogg]

Sort of they had to escape to Taiwan, which is how the Republic of China ended up in Taiwan.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Correct? Yes, yes.

[Jania Kellogg]

Yeah. So this enemy of the enemy is my friend approach. It doesn't work with Communists. That's kind of the message I'm getting here.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yes, that was later. That was Nixon. But we still have a little important history to cover. And that was during The World War.

[Jania Kellogg]

II, I guess, just to qualify what I mean. Right. In this situation, obviously the Nationalists and the Communists were not friends, but they got together to fight the Japanese as the common enemy. Right. And I wonder to myself, you know, shouldn't that already, after what happened, shouldn't that already have been the lesson?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Exactly.

[Jania Kellogg]

The enemy of the enemy is my friend, doesn't work with Communists.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Absolutely. But the history is very complicated. It is not that simple. But my book explains why the Nationalists were forced to collaborate with the CCP again. And the same thing happened. They were deceived and defeated. But this took us back to forward, actually to the 30s and late 30s and early 40s, and now the Americans come on the scene. Why? Because of the common enemy, the Japanese. So now they took us to the late 1930s and early 1940s, and now the Americans reappeared on the scene because now they're forced to engage with China. They had a shared enemy, Imperial Japan. And this period actually was a period that the Americans had a firsthand experience with the ccp. And CCP managed to deceive the Americans and managed to utilize the Americans to defeat their enemy, the Nationalists. So the lesson absolutely was never learned, because after this, the same thing happened over and over and over until even today. This is why the book is so important, to help people to understand we were there when I say we. America was there. And they did not understand Communism. And because they never understood Communism, they made all the possible mistakes and then helped the CCP to take over China.

[Jania Kellogg]

So this is you're saying even during this time period where the Nationalists and the Chinese were working together, the Nationalists and the Communists were working together. The Americans were also kind of on the side of the ccp.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. And here is another important thing that the Americans never understood. The difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

[Jania Kellogg]

Right. As we talked about.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, exactly. Why they never understood that Chiang Kai Shek government, the Nationalist government was indeed corrupt, was indeed ineffective, but it was an authoritarian regiment. They. Because they thought that this government is so corrupt. And then look on the other side, look at Communism. They seem to be real organized, devoted. They seem to be the one that we should collaborate with. And they have no understanding. Actually they should by then because there is an example of what went on in Soviet Union, but they refused to really learn about it. And they bet that it is Communism, Communists that will really help to achieve the goal to defeat the Japanese. So they did, just as I said, they made all the possible mistakes and eventually help the CCP to take over China.

[Jania Kellogg]

It seems like these mistakes basically continued for a very long time afterwards. It's kind of hard to imagine how that would be possible. I mean, you're saying this is like, you know, the turn of the century, not too long after the turn of the century. We've just. And by the way, it's not just the U.S. it's kind of the west at large. Right. That we're really talking about here. But with of course the US being the most influential, that is the key.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

That lessens never learned. That's why the Communist tactics of United Front keep working, keeps working.

[Jania Kellogg]

What's the tactic?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Tactic is deception and influence and infiltration. So because of their tactic, the Americans and the Americans, I'm talking about journalists, diplomats, American generals, American presidents, all bought into the lie that the Communist Party were really, really the one that is going to help to defeat the Japanese. They believe all the lies, even though the lies were just so blatant.

[Jania Kellogg]

Japanese first and then later the Soviets. Right.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah.

[Jania Kellogg]

Under many presidencies. Right. Like there was this whole hedge to try to stop the Soviet Union with the help of the Chinese, which at this point that relationship had soured.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, Yeah. I can give you some example of this. Started with, with the journalists always, you know, like here too, the journalists. So they went to China before the Americans started to make alliances with the Nationalist government against Japan. One of them is called Edgar Snow. He is so well known and because he wrote a book called Red Star Over China and it's still in print today, he went to Yan', an, the base of The Chinese Communist Party. And he did a glowing report of the Communists and compare them basically to the early Christians. They are organized, they're devoted, they are patriots, and they the future. And of course, he has influence. He had direct influence to president like FDR and later Nixon. So his book absolutely changed the perception of Chinese Communist Party in the West. And he called them really. He called them reformers. They are agrarian reformers. You know, it's not really communist. They are not really communist. That perception lingered until today. And it's not only it's influential internationally because it's English. Later it was translated into Chinese and used a different title because that title sounds a little bit like communist, you know, propaganda. So changing into another title, it's the Journey to the west, using classic novels, Chinese classic novels title and published. That was absolutely the most influential book to really get so many young people to Yan' an to join the revolution. And among them are two of my uncles. Yeah, they read the book. They believed it. They believed that to defeat Japanese, we have to join the Communists. That is how powerful the propaganda is. Of course, Edgar Snow probably did not know that his book actually was propaganda because all the information put in his book was offered to him by the ccp. So in many ways, that is the first united front tactic that they implement in the Americans. And he was the first and then followed him. There are so many other journalists, and I mentioned many of them in the book. But later the State Department, the diplomats and Christian educators, the missionary, the people that really missionary, they also knowingly or unknowingly, mostly unknowingly, helped to spread the propaganda. And a lot of them just helped so many young people, just like here, just like in America today, to believe in communism and to abandon their families. A lot of them were well educated, from well to do family, abandoned everything, went to Yan', an, joined the revolution.

[Jania Kellogg]

Wow, that's amazing. So these became the old friends of the Chinese people, as you call them.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

This is what the title. I would say that is the title that the CCP gave to those foreigners who helped them with their cause. The old friend of the Chinese people, and the first one received this title is Edgar Snow. And then you will see along the line, many, many people, including our president, got that title. Good friend, old friend of Chinese people. It has nothing to do with Chinese people. It should be called Old friend of the CCP or useful idiots, you know.

[Jania Kellogg]

And this also reminds me of the, you know, one of these biggest pieces of successful propaganda, I think, that the Chinese Communist Party has affected Is just this idea that the communists actually represent the Chinese people, that the party is the people.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah.

[Jania Kellogg]

In fact. Right. When I would argue nothing could be.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Further from the truth, this still, that lie is still being believed by so many Americans or people around the world.

[Jania Kellogg]

World, Even Chinese. Many.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yes.

[Jania Kellogg]

Right. I mean, that's the craziest part, Right?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. So I would. Not too long ago, this guy called Victor Gao, he was. He worked for some kind of a think tank in Beijing. So he had a video that went viral. He said, China, we have 5,000 years history, most of which there's no United States. And we are expected to survive another 5,000 years. This is a lie. Chinese civilization lasted for thousands of years. But the CCP is not part of the Chinese civilization. It's an imported Western ideology. And they had a beginning, that was 1921, that is CCP. And they hijacked China. Now they become, they call themselves China. It cannot be further from the truth. So this is very important for Americans to understand this. CCP is absolutely a foreign implant in China. And I would say they were the colonizers of this ideology from Western Europe, from Germany. If we trace back to the beginning, and it has nothing to do with Chinese civilization. And during the Cultural Revolution, we saw that Mao want to destroy everything that's Chinese through the so called four odds. Destroy the four odds. Old ideas, old tradition, old custom and old habits. Anything Chinese they want to destroy, they are not Chinese. CCP is not Chinese. I think it's so important for people to understand this.

[Jania Kellogg]

Why are communists always so interested in destroying what Mao called the four olds, all of this tradition?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, we talk a little bit. I really consider communism a theocracy. It's a religion, and it's absolutely a religion because it's sought to control not just a system, not just property or economy. It really, really want to control people's mind. And so in many ways it is a religion. So because it is a religion, it cannot put up with any other tradition, civilization, ideology, and of course, religion.

[Jania Kellogg]

But with the coming of Deng Xiaoping, as the story goes, Right. Suddenly to be rich is to be glorious. So obviously China abandoned communism. Right.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Well, then we have to go back a little bit to Nixon, don't you think? And so it was 1972 and I was in high school that we learned Nixon was coming to China. We just could not believe. If Americans were shocked, we were. Just imagine how shocked we were. Because since childhood we're taught America is our deadly enemy because America want to destroy us. And so we'll do everything to defend China against our enemy. And then you tell me President Nixon was going to visit us and we just could not get our mind around it. And that was the height of the Cultural Revolution when everything was in ruins, absolutely in ruins. And there's no economy. And a few years after that, I was sent to the countryside after I graduated from high school. Why? There's no economy, no jobs, no nothing. We live in extreme poverty. But CCP was saved. Saved by no other than the President of United States, Richard Nixon. And Trump rightly called that was the biggest mistake he made. Yes, that is true. He saved ccp. He saved the CCP from the ruins.

[Jania Kellogg]

How?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

He opened China up. And at that time, it's even worse than just economic ruins in America in the late 50s, in China, in China, the time was just so crucial because China at that time was facing the absolute total collapse. Internally, there's no economy, everyone was living extreme poverty. But more than that. And in the late 1950s, there was a big split split between China and Soviet Union. And it gets worse. By the time of 1972, by the time that before Nixon visited China, the two powers were almost at the blink of nuclear war. Can you imagine? Mao was like a threatened both internally, externally, only this time it was his former boss, Soviet Union. And he needed help. He absolutely need help. Sure enough, the help was on the way and there was no other than the President of United States, Richard Nixon.

[Jania Kellogg]

So it opened up, opened it up.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

And all the crisis eased. And soon after that, China got into the Security Council of United Nation because the Americans did not do anything about it. So turned around and then absolutely was saved and escaped all the, the immediate threat of being bombed by a nuclear weapon. And now safely on the side of the Americas of the world superpower, United States of America.

[Jania Kellogg]

You know, it's a really this story and I want to encourage people to read because you flesh out so many of these details and nuances of how this all happened. But we go from this opening up where the Nixon administration in effect kind of saves the CCP as opposed to having it collapse in something else forming there. Two, there's this kind of line that goes all the way to today where the CCP has these deep, deep inroads in America itself. We're seeing another bio lab that's been discovered. We have these, you know, police stations, as we say in quotes. We have, you know, all of this IP theft and, you know, cyber theft and I mean, and, and united front, you know, compromised individuals across the whole country. And I mean it's not just America, but of course the focus was always has been America. So you know, just I, we, I would love to talk out through all the nuance. And that's something, I think people should read your book through it. But just kind of give me a picture of how we went from the Nixons opening up to today.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, I think this, you're so right. There's so much to cover and it's almost impossible. But I try my best. So after Nixon opened the door to China and a lot of people have problems understanding it and just like me, I was like, what? But then of course I could not think critically. The party must be right. So party was right. But a lot of Americans have trouble understanding it. We just, we're still in the midst of Cold war. So if we ally with the Chinese, which was communist country, and so then it's a cold war about communism. So people have questions. So it just makes no sense. Right. And so what they did, the Nixon administration, they come up with a way that somehow worked. They said, yes, the enemy steal communism, but the Chinese communists, they're not really communists. They are so called communists. And that has been actually the way that the deceive Americans and still worked. Still today people think that oh, Chinese communism, it's kind of like Confucius communism. It's not like the Soviet communism. And still today, Russia, Russia, Russia and not many people China, China, China. So they were, they were allowed to not be questioned. All this atrocity happened behind the so called Bamboo Curtain, was not taught. 80 some million Chinese died under the Chinese regime. And later more than 300 million babies were falsely boarded, not told. So the American people just okay Chinese communists, they're not really a threat, they're okay. And so that is really a problem. And so later on they call it, they're reformers. Remember Deng Xiaoping? The reformer Deng Xiaoping never, never planned to have political reform. All he wanted was economic reform. Why? Because China was absolutely in the blink brink of total collapse. At that time nobody believed in ccp. So he has to do something. So that's why he got his doctrine now kind of famous black cat, white cat. As long as the cat's mouth is a good cat, it's temporarily. We have to save this country and what do we do? Get the foreign investment, get their technology. And that's how we started. And Americans were told if we help China, first of all it's not a real communist, it's a so called communist country. If we help them to develop Their economy, democracy will just naturally follow. Do we remember that? And I have to say, I even kind of believe maybe. Maybe. Yeah, maybe if we help them to have a strong economy, people will naturally demand more freedom of speech and then they will have a democracy in China. Wrong. Because again, we're dealing with communists. And after all these decades of opening and reform, what happened when Xi Jinping took over in 2012, reverse now going back to Mao era. Because to them, wealth is important, but nothing is more important than the control.

[Jania Kellogg]

Of power then the party. Keeping the party. Absolutely.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Because, yeah, power and party is the same thing. To save the party is more important than anything else. And this is something else I think it's important that I want to bring up is the rise of China. Now it become the second largest economy. Who benefits? Okay, we'll say, okay, you know, Americans, we sacrificed, we lost millions of jobs. Maybe by doing so, we help the Chinese people to have a better future. No, that is not the case. We help the CCP elite to become rich. Even Today, I think 600 million Chinese only makes $5 a day. Why? Because that's not what the CCP doing all this for. It's for their power. So the CCP elites become billionaires, some even trillionaires. So the rise of China is bad for America, bad for the world, because they become really a threat. Original threat, now a world threat. You know, we can see their hands behind almost all the terrorist organization. And also in America, we can almost see their hands behind all these radical organizations, behind BMM and behind the protests for Hamas and today and anti ice and there's people reporting the connection of their money coming to fund those radical organizations. But most of all, I think it is the Chinese people who are the victims of this powerful party. Before I said, after the Chinese Cultural Revolution, they really lost all their legitimacy. People did not believe in the ccp. Not only that CCP was. The whole country was in economic ruins. But also people just lost faith in the Communist Party. But today they absolutely have more power than ever. And so the democracy in China is further away from the horizon than ever. So the victims absolutely are the Chinese people.

[Jania Kellogg]

You know, I just came back from the International Religious Freedom Summit, which was here in D.C. as we're filming, you know, the last couple of days. And I keep thinking about this, that religious freedom really is the litmus test. Like if you. Because as you said, right. In these communist societies it is this kind of quasi false religion character that communism takes on. And so of course they have to suppress any other form of anything that would compete with that. Because people, I mean, I believe that people naturally want to seek that connection, seek that connection, an actual connection to God, not with the Communist party ideology or as an intermediary. And so it can never tolerate the religious freedom. And I think if we understood this and saw that and understood that this is the red flag, right?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Absolutely.

[Jania Kellogg]

We would be in a very different situation. Right?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. And the other thing I can say is that during the Cultural Revolution, and they depend on people reporting each other. And I just absolutely remember that we're encouraged to report even our parents if we hear they say something that is not politically correct or is that somehow against the party's party line? And they don't have to do that today. With this surveillance technology, they can absolutely control you before you even utter word. And with the social credit system, they absolutely enslave every Chinese. And if you want to, if they suspect you, it's not even you want to do something against the government, if they suspect that you might have something against government, they can absolutely end your life. They can use the app, they can just. You can't have access to your bank account. You can even take train or plane, or you're just, basically you are just disabled. And so that was not like Cultural Revolution anymore because now they have the technology, they have the money, thanks to the west and thanks specifically to the United States, now they become more powerful than ever and more dangerous than ever.

[Jania Kellogg]

I mean, it's interesting because they're more powerful, they have a lot of power and they are dangerous. I think I agree with that. At the same time, they're in some ways they're very fragile.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. And you can see that just in the past two weeks, the news came out of China that Xi Jinping purged the number one in the military and a bunch of high level military leaders. And this is not his first, but this is his biggest. And this guy was his childhood friend, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Why? Because he feel not secure. So because of that, he has to purge everything, everyone that he feel like he's suspicious of. But eventually he won't trust anyone. There's no one left to trust. And how fragile is that kind of regime? Yes, Wild. From the outside look very powerful, but inside it's very fragile. You're absolutely right.

[Jania Kellogg]

Yeah. So I mean, because it's kind of like a mixed message, right? Because on the one hand you're saying, yes, there's a lot of power. I mean, yes, they have nuclear weapons, they Had TikTok. They have, you know, all of this biggest militarization in the history of the world, fastest, arguably massive state security apparatus to repress the people of the country. At the same time, it's just always. I mean, some people would argue, and I think I would be one of them, that it's unusually fragile. And I had hung he one of our kind of key analysts explaining how in order to achieve what Xi achieved through these purges of the top, top, top military leaders, in a way he's sort of reduced the overall power of the system because they don't. Because you started breaking all of the unwritten rules of how that system worked.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah. The other thing I think a lot of Americans don't understand. Who do you think is the number one threat to the ccp? Most people probably say United States because it is the superpower that CCP want to replace. Of course, it consider United States as number one enemy. It's kind of true. But there is another enemy it's scared the most. It's the Chinese people. It spend more money than the military. And this called security or public safety. It is really all this surveillance systems and all this police. And to do what? To control the population because they are scared of the people that they rule over.

[Jania Kellogg]

So she. I'm really enjoying this conversation. I would love to actually continue it for hours, but I think we'll let people read your book and, you know, kind of figure out a lot of these details. Again, we looked at a situation where on the one hand, we do feel like the CCP has an unusual level of power, military, unusual level of influence in the west. In America, I mean, we can see variations of it all the time. They've really taken advantage of the openness of our system in the West. At the same time, there's this fragility inherent because there isn't that legitimacy and there's this, you know, sort of paranoia. Right. To keep power at any cost. What do you see as the right approach that would be good for America, good for the Chinese people going forward?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Yeah, it's a big question, but one thing I would say is that the theme or the goal of my book is to really to tell American people we have threat. Absolutely. Over there. That's ccp. And, and also my first book I addressed the threat within that is the American Cultural Revolution, the woke ideology. But where is the real source of all this problem? Are they even connected and how do I address it? It's a big question. But I would say that my first book, Mouth America I tried to answer the question to the thread from within, and that is the woke ideology, and that is not coming from somewhere else. It's homeborn. Woke ideology was born here and made specifically for country like America. But after that, I still feel like there's a lot of questions unanswered. But also, I want to make this very clear in my second book, Made in America. As the title said, I believe that the reason that CCP first of all was successful in taking over China and later in challenge directly to America is because we, as Americans, we fail to, especially our leaders, fail to understand the true nature of communism. And we fail to understand the threat it poses to us, to our way of life. And because of that, we made one mistake of another. And history was never learned. And that's why, I mean, the problem is here we have to look inside rather than look outside to have solutions. And this is a huge problem. But I say start with learning history. Start to learn how we got here to begin with. I think this book will help you really to understand a lot of things that you are not. Because this is, I call it hidden history because it's not taught in schools and it's not taught and discussed in public discourse because a lot of people want to hide it. But in order for us to understand, we have to learn this very, very important piece of history and that my book is all about.

[Jania Kellogg]

And you mentioned that we really failed to understand the true nature of the Chinese Communist Party, of Chinese Communism. I think this is of critical importance. I actually make the same argument in a nutshell. How would you explain that nature in the shortest possible way? What is it that we don't understand?

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Okay, yeah, One way is to understand that Communism, we talk a little bit, it's a religion, and it really want to remake the world in its own image. And not only that, it want to remake human nature. And so it cannot be peaceful because in order to do that, they have to use power and they have to use violence. And this is not what I'm saying, okay? I think that's what they are. I live through it. And history is there for us to learn. It happened in Soviet Union, happened to Poland, where your family is from. It happened to China, happened in Cuba. What do we do? We have to learn history. The other thing I have to say, nowadays a lot of people talk about globalism. And I have to say Communism is globalism. And in its DNA, it wants not just change human nature, it wants to take over the world. When I was growing up, we were always told our goal is to liberate the humanity. So its goal is not just China and then maybe some other country. No, the entire world. That is the threat. You can treat it as friend, but it always treats you as its mortal enemy. And I did use this story in the book the Farmer and the Snake. A lot of people probably know that story. CCP or communism is a snake. You can save it, you can help it, but it will bite you because it's nature. The nature is that it going to destroy you.

[Jania Kellogg]

Well, Shivan Fleet, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.

[Sheila Van Fleet]

Thank you so much.

[Jania Kellogg]

As usual, thank you all for joining Shivan, Fleet and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Janje Kellick.