He Ran the World’s Biggest Payment Processor; Now He’s Taking on Social Security | Frank Bisignano

Summary

American Thought Leaders | The Epoch Times Episode: He Ran the World’s Biggest Payment Processor; Now He’s Taking on Social Security | Frank Bisignano Release Date: March 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Frank Bisignano, Commissioner and CEO of both the Social Security Administration (SSA) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Host Jan Jekielek explores Bisignano’s sweeping reforms, operational philosophy, approach to fraud, and the future of Social Security. Drawing on Bisignano’s background running some of the world’s largest financial institutions, the discussion highlights the translation of private-sector efficiencies and technological advances into critical federal agencies that impact every American.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tackling Fraud, Waste, and Abuse ([01:15]–[05:11])

• Initial Shocks & Changes

  • Bisignano describes confronting astounding figures: $1.7 trillion outlays at SSA and $5.6 trillion inflows at IRS.
  • He recounts discovering that SSA’s digital account system was deliberately down nearly 20% of the time due to outdated batch processing, limiting public access and contributing to inefficiency.
    • “It was down almost 20% of the time, by design, 29 hours a week ... In a couple weeks, really, with testing and everything, we changed that. And it was up ... every hour of the day.” (Frank Bisignano, [02:04])
  • Asserts that modern technology (store-and-forward, mirrored data) solved long-standing IT obstacles in weeks.

• Improving Data Accuracy

  • Bisignano stresses the importance of “pristine control environment” and claims the agency has saved tens of billions by correcting control-related issues.
  • On data discrepancies (e.g., claims about 12.4 million Social Security recipients aged 120+), Bisignano clarifies these were not living beneficiaries but inactive numbers enabling fraud.
    • “It wasn't that people who weren't alive any longer were getting paid Social Security. It was that there was a live Social Security number which could be used throughout the whole system.” (Frank Bisignano, [00:00]; [05:27])

• Organizational Restructuring

  • Introduced Chief Risk Management and Chief Cybersecurity roles reporting directly to him to prioritize data integrity and fraud prevention.
    • “I created two positions ahead of risk management and head of cyber and resiliency or security and resiliency that did not exist.” (Frank Bisignano, [06:13])

2. Protecting the Most Vulnerable: SSI Focus ([08:56]–[12:37])

• What is SSI?
  • The Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program provides payments to the most vulnerable Americans, requiring monthly eligibility validation—a labor- and resource-intensive task.
  • Previously, SSI was bureaucratically neglected. Bisignano assigned an executive to oversee and streamline the program, aiming to save money and improve service:
    • “What I decided to do was put somebody in charge of it ... have responsibility for SSI as opposed to have it completely diffused ... So we're streamlining it. We're using data feeds to help the decision making criteria ... It's equally as important [as other SSA programs].” (Frank Bisignano, [09:06])

3. Ensuring Benefits Only Go To Those Who Qualify ([12:37]–[14:17])

• Illegal Payments and File Reconciliation
  • Emphasizes ongoing efforts to ensure only eligible recipients (i.e., citizens with proof) are on SSA rolls.
    • “Ensuring that people are on file are citizens, valid citizens, that we have proof of ... We've made a large dent in it.” (Frank Bisignano, [12:48])

4. Bisignano’s Background and Private-Sector Mentality ([14:17]–[17:13])

• Experience
  • Traces career from American Express to CEO roles in massive payment firms and Citigroup during 9/11.
  • Operational focus, technological savvy, and focus on accurate, efficient service are central themes.
    • “I've always run on a platform of we're going to serve clients where they want to be served, right?” (Frank Bisignano, [18:04])

5. Digitization: Pros, Cons, and Execution ([17:13]–[20:44])

• Push for Digital Transformation

  • Details expansion of omnichannel service, highlighting 100+ million digital SSA users, voluntary adoption, and launch of a mobile app.
    • “I love saying we haven't shut a field office ... Omnichannel presence matters a lot ... we have more than 100 million digital users.” (Frank Bisignano, [18:04])

• Security Measures

  • Reaffirms commitment to cybersecurity, with elevated roles reporting to him and constant oversight.
    • “Job one for everybody is to protect the information. That's job one.” (Frank Bisignano, [21:44])

6. Public-Private Tensions & Employee Morale ([20:44]–[26:16])

• Navigating Institutional vs. Public Loyalties
  • Balances federal institutional duties with accountability to citizens; believes both goals are compatible through client-centered efficiency.
  • Boosted SSA staff morale by encouraging overtime volunteering during holidays—66% staff participation.
    • “We went from ... the lowest morale, to people who want to come in ... and serve the American public on days they could have stayed home.” (Frank Bisignano, [24:13])

7. Trump Accounts: New Savings Initiatives for Children ([26:16]–[28:12])

• What are Trump Accounts?
  • Savings accounts for children; ~$1,000 automatically deposited for each newborn, with parents and others able to contribute until age 18.
  • Over three million opened; initiative still being publicized and expanded.
    • “We’re about to pierce a million babies born that are going to get the thousand dollars ... We have over 3 million trump accounts opened ... I think it's fabulous.” (Frank Bisignano, [26:28])

8. Recent Tax Changes and IRS Operations ([28:12]–[32:27])

• Increased Tax Refunds

  • Due to O triple B legislation, average tax benefit is now over $780 per household, benefiting 45% of returns filed.
    • “The average tax benefit is up over $780 ... that's real money ... 45% ... getting some benefit other than the fact we kept permanent what was going to go away.” (Frank Bisignano, [30:00], [30:53])

• Digitization at IRS

  • New online tools reduce the need for phone support, improve service speed, and enable better compliance.
    • “We're getting less phone calls this year than last year because people have online capabilities that we built in the past.” (Frank Bisignano, [31:49])

9. Neutralizing Political Influence & Use of Technology ([32:27]–[35:44])

• Ensuring IRS Impartiality

  • Technologies and clear audit trails are key to eliminating human bias, favoritism, or targeting—especially for nonprofits.
    • “Technology can cover a lot of ground and present the cases appropriately ... you're going to get solid decision making and ... better information.” (Frank Bisignano, [34:39])

• AI and Automation

  • Sees technology (including AI) as an enabler, not a threat. Technology can bolster compliance and workforce effectiveness.
    • “Let's just talk about technology as a great enabler ... it'll make our workforce better.” (Frank Bisignano, [35:06])

10. The Reality of Social Security’s Financial Future ([35:44]–[39:08])

• Insolvency Timeline

  • Clarifies that, per latest actuarial report, payments would be reduced to 83% (not zero) in about seven years if nothing changes.
    • “In seven years if nothing is done, people get paid out at 83%, not 100%. ... There is no vision of zero occurring here.” (Frank Bisignano, [36:14])
  • Main task is ensuring accuracy and efficiency while lawmakers debate structure.

• Billions Saved through Accuracy

  • Emphasizes billions saved through rooting out improper payments and boosting payment accuracy.
    • “When people would say it's ... 99% accurate ... it's supposed to be 99.99999. That's the place I came from ... Billions come out of that.” (Frank Bisignano, [38:14])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It wasn't that people who weren't alive any longer were getting paid Social Security. It was that there was a live Social Security number which could be used throughout the whole system.” — Frank Bisignano ([00:00])
• “Job one for everybody is to protect the information. That's job one.” — Frank Bisignano ([21:44])
• “66% of our people volunteered to come in [on holidays] … We went from … the lowest morale, to people who want to come in … and serve the American public.” — Frank Bisignano ([24:13])
• “Let's just talk about technology as a great enabler and it'll make our workforce better.” — Frank Bisignano ([35:06])
• “In seven years if nothing is done, people get paid out at 83%, not 100% ... There is no vision of zero occurring here.” — Frank Bisignano ([36:14])

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Timestamped Highlights

• [00:00] Social Security number misuse clarified
• [02:04] Digital transformation at SSA; solving legacy system issues
• [05:27] Data reconciliation on Social Security rolls
• [09:06] SSI explained, operational overhaul
• [12:48] File cleanup targets ineligible beneficiaries
• [14:41] Bisignano’s career and operational approach
• [18:04] Omnichannel service, digital users surpassing 100 million
• [21:44] Dual responsibility: serving both public and government with focus on data security
• [24:13] Morale turnaround at SSA through volunteer overtime
• [26:28] Trump accounts for children explained
• [30:00] IRS refund benefits quantified
• [34:39] Using technology to reduce bias and human error at IRS
• [36:14] Social Security solvency reality check
• [38:14] Billions saved via focus on accuracy

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Final Takeaways

Frank Bisignano brings a relentless emphasis on operational efficiency and accuracy—rooted in his private-sector background—to overhaul the SSA and IRS. He champions digital transformation, robust cyber protections, and an ethos of serving Americans “where they want to be served,” all the while explicitly addressing concerns of fraud, fairness, and technological risk. While Social Security faces daunting actuarial projections, Bisignano remains optimistic—pointing to technological progress, significant cost savings, and a renewed focus on data integrity as evidence that these public institutions can evolve and thrive.

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For more insights, visit the official SSA and IRS websites for digital account registration and the latest policy updates discussed in this episode.

Transcript

[Frank Bisignano]

Because it wasn't that people who weren't alive any longer were getting paid Social Security. It was that there was a live Social Security number which could be used throughout the whole system. That's where you're going to have fraud, waste, and abuse.

[Jana Kelik]

Today I sit down with Frank Bisignano, who oversees not one, but two of America's most consequential institutions, the Social Security Administration and the Internal Revenue Service. Before stepping into government, he built a career at the very top of finance. CEO of Pfizer Co, CEO of JPMorgan Chase, and the youngest senior vice president in American Express history at just 25. Now he's taking on a different kind of challenge, bringing in his words, accuracy to massive federal agencies that impact every American.

[Frank Bisignano]

We have inaccurate information on a mission critical file, and, and we've cleaned that up.

[Jana Kelik]

What does it take to streamline systems this complex? And can Social Security really survive the decades ahead? This is American Thought Leaders, and I'm Jana Kelik,

[Interviewer]

Commissioner and CEO Frank Bisignano.

[Host]

Such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

[Frank Bisignano]

Thanks for having me. I'm honored to be here.

[Interviewer]

So you take care of two agencies which deal with an astonishing amount of cash. I see here the Social Security Administration outlays are about $1.7 trillion, and the IRS Internal Revenue Service had inflows of $5.6 trillion. That is an unfathomable amount of money that you are responsible for. A big question that people have, right, is we keep hearing about waste, fraud, and abuse. And this is something that's been a key issue for this administration. So across these two agencies, what were the things that you found that perhaps were the most shocking or unbelievable? And what corrections have you been implementing?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, you know, fraud, waste, and abuse happens in all shapes and sizes and all dimensions. And those are some staggering numbers. But as I had said in my confirmation hearing, I was running a company doing 2.5 trillion of payments a day. So I've been fortunate and blessed in the opportunities I've had and the people I worked for, and now especially their great honor to work for President Trump. But, you know, one very simple thing was at Social Security, we had a website that you could have a digital account on, but it was down, down almost 20% of the time, by design, 29 hours a week. And so you might not think of that as fraud, waste, and abuse, but we now have more than 100 million digital users. Because in a couple weeks, really, with testing and everything, we changed that. And it was up, you know, every hour of the Day. We also ran a concept that said we were going to have a pristine control environment. It's always important. We saved tens of billions of dollars on what we saw as control related issues. We treat everything in a manner that we want to get the best possible outcome. So I think when you think about fraud, waste and abuse, getting payments right is the most important thing. Being able to, given the amount of money that we're flowing. And that's what we've had a maniacal focus on while delivering customer service at a level that they've never seen before.

[Interviewer]

Just very briefly, what do you mean by design? It was down.

[Frank Bisignano]

They were running batch cycles on weekends and at night. And probably when it first was built, the conclusion was, okay, well we'll have the data up. We can have the data up when we're running the batch cycle. But modern day technology allows you to mirror data and then keep it up there and do something called store and forward. So if people were transacting with us, we'd store it and when the batch cycle ended running, we'd pass it on. And it didn't sound really bad unless you were in Hawaii or California. If the system went down at 12, lots of people want to use the system on weekends and it wasn't always up. So it was by design. But that doesn't mean it was a good idea. It might have been a convenient idea and we had some great engineers that changed it all in less than two weeks.

[Interviewer]

So one of the things I have here is that there were 12.4 million individuals on Social Security aged 120 or over. So what was happening, I've read about this. What was happening with these people? Were they getting paid somehow?

[Frank Bisignano]

No. You know, we embarked on a project that we're at the kind of completion of. What I called was reconciling the data. So, you know, there wasn't really a routine to reconcile data. And over time it evolved. And I thought, you know something, call it the Social Security database. We now have built routines that cause us to regularly ensure that those on it are, should be on it. And what I said was, which I 100% believe is it wasn't that people who weren't alive any longer were getting paid Social Security. It was that there was a live Social Security number which could be used throughout the whole system. So, you know, that's where you're going to have fraud, waste and abuse. You know, I said this too early on when asked about it. You know, of course, of course what was being said was we have inaccurate Information on a mission critical file. And we've cleaned that up. And we've cleaned it up way beyond that, way beyond that. And I'm pretty proud of the effort. You know, I created two positions ahead of risk management and head of cyber and resiliency or security and Resiliency that did not exist. Reporting into me because the control environment so darn important to deliver a great client experience.

[Host]

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[Interviewer]

So there's something called SSI and I think there's just a lot of confusion about even what this is exactly and why it's important. Can you lay that out?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, you know, Social Security is in 100% of every American's retirement plan, you know. Right. So if you think about it that way. And so also, you know, it protects the most vulnerable. We have a disability system. We have fundamentally a thousand judges that adjudicate hundreds of thousands cases to ensure people who should get disability do and then we have supplemental insurance for those who can't really manage through the environment that they operate in, the most vulnerable people. And what was interesting is when I came into the job, it wasn't really on my mind. And what I heard from field offices is how much labor goes into SSI because you're validating monthly that these people qualify for this supplemental payment. And what I decided to do was put somebody in charge of it, right? Have an executive who reports to me have responsibility for SSI as opposed to have it completely diffused and subordinated, coordinated to no responsibility, but a process throughout the whole organization. And so we're streamlining it. We're using data feeds to help the decision making criteria. And it's not serving the largest swath of Americans, but it's serving Elmo's vulnerable and in a manner that actually they get full attention of leadership and technology and all the things that the other processes. It's not, it's the smallest part of Social Security Administration's payments, but it's equally as important.

[Interviewer]

So you've just, you've just elevated these benefits. Basically that's, that's why the focus on this. And before they were at the bottom of the barrel.

[Frank Bisignano]

No longer subordinated to a process. But think of it like, I view it like we have business lines, we have a disability business line, we have a retirement business line, and we have a supplemental income business line. And you know, that deserves as much attention and requires more work at the end of it, because once people are in retirement, you know, those are not the people calling us and ask their help. They get their direct deposits, you know, 99% of them, you know, those who get checks, get them in the mail. That's obviously dissipated over time. But people on supplemental insurance are continually validating their responsibility to let us know why they need to stay on it. So building a separate leadership and a structure will actually save us a lot of money. It's going to save us a lot of money. The whole program is about how we do a better job for the American public, but do it an efficient modern day methodology.

[Interviewer]

And when, when it comes to Social Security Security, how big an issue is it that people who are illegally in the United States have access to that system and are collecting money, they shouldn't be.

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I think, you know, you know, back to that story about reconciling the file, that's one of the main components of it, ensuring that people are on file or citizens, valid citizens that we have proof of. And you know, that's been the journey we've been on since we came here to have accurate books and records. So we like to believe that we've made a large dent in it. I think you'll hear shortly from us the culmination of that effort.

[Interviewer]

Any hints now?

[Frank Bisignano]

Tremendous progress. And you know, the reason why you, you know, we're able to drive payment accuracy over time up because we're only paying to those who should get paid. You know, there was a lot of, there was a lot of dialogue about the fact that we took people off the system who we figured out weren't still alive. So we want to be exactly accurate in everything we do because it has a financial implication, it has a, an identity implication. Right. But I'd give the risk team tremendous, tremendous grades for what they've got and done and culling through all this data and making it a priority and something that's never been done before.

[Interviewer]

I want to talk a little bit about your background because I mean, you have a pretty unique background to step into this kind of role. And of course you manage, as you mentioned, you manage a massive payment processor and dealt with again, these sort of, to most of us, unfathomable amounts of money on a daily basis. Just tell me a little bit about your background and how you ended up here.

[Frank Bisignano]

I always went to a operational bent very early on. Somebody said to me when I was 20, you need to learn how to code. And that was a long time ago. So I was a technologist, an operator. I had fabulous bosses, as I have today, which is the pinnacle of my life, having the opportunity to work for President Trump. But I worked with Henry Kravitz, who ran KKR and turned around their largest investment. I worked with one of the greatest CEOs in financial services maybe in the country for over 20 years, Jamie Dimon. Before that I worked for Jamie and Sandy Weil, who was one of the forefathers of buying companies and integrating them. So I straddled all the technology and operations and infrastructure. I had the responsibility as the chief administrative officer on 911 for Citigroup and had 16,000 people in lower Manhattan and Severn World Trade center was one of our buildings. And I saw everything imaginable and never left, but we had a plan. So I spent a lot of time on large scale operations and then running technical businesses like the Global Transaction bank at Citigroup multiple times, running mortgage businesses including Post Crisis and having the opportunity to turn around the housing market

[Host]

with

[Frank Bisignano]

the housing secretary and another chief negotiator for the banks, but really focused, spent a lot of time on how to make things more efficient, how to ensure books and records are straight, and how to deliver for the American consumer. And so in the last company that I was CEO, and I love saying we served every American household, I have that opportunity again here.

[Interviewer]

So, I mean, you're bringing a very kind of corporate vision, right? Would you say that's accurate?

[Frank Bisignano]

Yeah, I would say I'm bringing a operational focus to it that I might have honed in all my years and being at the top of the largest financial institutions of the world.

[Interviewer]

It's absolutely fascinating to see, for example, one of the big focuses you seem to have is digitization, and that's going to streamline a lot of the work that's happening. I want to talk about that, but I also want to talk about it in the context where there's a lot of people that are very skeptical of digitization because it makes some of this PII personally identifiable information maybe more easily accessible, more easily to be abused by. There's a lot of less TR in these big institutions, some of these corporate institutions. So how do you square that? On the one side, of course, you can see the value of digitization, Right. On the other hand, there's this potential, I don't know, increase in ability to use personal information. If that were to be abused. How do you deal with that?

[Frank Bisignano]

First of all, I've always run on a platform of we're going to serve clients where they want to be served, right? In this case, we have 1200 plus field offices that are there. They're pillars of many communities. And if people want to come in and do face to face business, we're available. I love saying we haven't shut a field office, right? That doesn't mean we haven't done way more transactions online or on the phone. But I think omnichannel presence matters a lot. In this case, Omnichannel is you have the ability to call, you have the ability to walk in, and you have the ability, you know, seven days a week, 24 hours a day to go online and look for the information you need or do 38 different transaction types. So I think that's the best you could do for people, right? We're going to meet you where you want to go, where you're most comfortable. We all know that everybody is transacting digitally at all different ages. And we're in the midst of rolling out a mobile app, taking all that information and allowing you to do it on your phone and to be able to look up at my Social Security account and understand exactly where you are in your life cycle. If you're sitting on a plane and wanted to look at your mobile app, there's a reason we have more than 100 million digital users. They're all voluntary. We didn't ask one of them to. We might have asked them, but we believe that people should be served no matter they want to be served. Obviously, we're maniacally focused on cyber. You know, I've elevated two positions that report to me. One is the head of risk management, and that's really been the group that's overseed that cleanup of the database and driven down the fraud numbers by billions. And then the head of security and resiliency, which includes cyber. These are not functions that historically would have ever been even known reporting close to the commissioner, but I think they're mandatory functions that deserve a seat at the table, to have a voice every week in our governance structures on how to run the place. Right.

[Interviewer]

I think this applies. This is just maybe a bit of a philosophical question, but it has a very profound operational answer. In a role such as yours, both on the side of the IRS and the Social Security ssa, on the one hand, you're responsible to the people, obviously, this is the form of government we have. On the other hand, you're responsible to the institutions. And the institutions, the goals are not necessarily always the same. And we've seen increased, for example, increased interest in government institutions and getting a lot of personal information so these systems can be abused. I'm just very curious how you think about that. How do we deal with that tension, if you will, because we're heading right into a world aggressively where all information is there in the cloud, so to speak. Right.

[Frank Bisignano]

Yeah. Well, I think, first of all, I think of it in a really pragmatic way. I am here to serve the American people. That means protect their information also. And I am here to serve the federal government, led by President Trump, to do the best imaginable job to drive out fraud, waste and abuse, which really, in my case means serving the client better and more accurately. Right. I've always believed that you can drive efficiency and get higher client service together. You know, fundamentally, when, you know, two years ago it took 40 minutes to answer the phone and now it takes eight, well, that's going to be way more productive and way more client service oriented. And by the way, that's because we're using more technology. I love saying technology is a great enabler. Right. I've done it my whole career. How do we make it easy for the American public to deal with us, the federal government. And how do we make it better actually for our employees? For our employees, the more technology we bring, the more their job is enriched. And then lastly, you know, it's job one for everybody to protect the information. That's job one. Right? That's job one.

[Interviewer]

And you know, you sound like you're doing better than my telecom company, to be perfectly honest here.

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I always, I say all the time, I won't bring up names, but I say like, I know, you know, because I get served by entities. My wife, my family gets served by entities. Outperformance is better than public entities, public companies. Right. It really is. I'm probably, I'm really darn proud of people. And I think at the end point, I'll tell you something about people, you know, in the organization, the 24th and 26th December, where there was an executive order that they were holidays and that the workforce could stay home. And you know, in these organizations, historically that's what they did. And I thought about the people and they had gone through this horrible, horrible induced shutdown. And you know, we were navigating hardships all the time for the people. I mean, we have a horrible shutdown at DHS right now. And so I recognized I'm the son of a 44 year federal employee. So I understand. When I came on the job, I told everybody I had a bias towards them. Of course they thought, oh my God, what's he mean? I said, I have a bias. The hardest working person I ever knew, my dad, my role model, who was an orphan himself, worked 44 years for treasury in Customs Enforcement. So anyhow, I knew dad liked overtime. And so I asked people, we had them, I said, I like to open up all the field offices, I like to open up the phone center. I want to serve the American public. 66% of our people volunteered to come in. So this went in ssa, we went from the largest in large agencies, the lowest morale, to people who want to come in and serve the American public on days they could have stayed home. And that also means they had no tax on that overtime. O, triple B. Right. And that is affecting employers positively and people positively. You know, I hear from employers that, you know, now my people want to work overtime more than they ever did. Because, you know, at some point they were saying, well, overtime, you know, I get taxed on it, you know, I'm making a trade. So I think that was effective also for those who understood when they all

[Interviewer]

volunteered to come in let's talk about Trump accounts. I know this is something when we were talking offline, I know this is something very important to you. And so just explain to me what they are and where we're at.

[Frank Bisignano]

Oh, well, we're about to pierce a million babies born that are going to get the thousand dollars. So start there the next four years, you know, child born, you fill out my favorite form of 4547 and you can register your child, get $1000 put in a Trump account for them. But that you can register, you know, anyone up till 18 and you know, you begin, you know, whether, whether it's Michael Dell doing it or there's lots of people who are putting money into the system, parents using it as a savings vehicle for their child up till 18. It's a powerful, powerful instrument. We have over 3 million trump accounts opened. Obviously I said a million babies, but we have over 3 million because people are opening up for their children. I think it's fabulous. I think, you know, it's another form of an ira, just a different concept.

[Interviewer]

Right. And I mean basically for any child under 18, this can be opened up. So it sounds like there's a lot more opportunity here to be taken advantage of.

[Frank Bisignano]

I think people are becoming educated to the topic. We probably will continue to educate them. I think you'll see financial planners educating them. I think you're going to see tax preparers educating them and I think it's going to be explosive.

[Interviewer]

Now, on the IRS side, I was looking at some of the numbers. I saw that the refund numbers are up, which is, I know it's something you're going to want to talk about, right?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I think, yes, the refund numbers are up and they're up in a double digit percentage. Recognizing that's one part of the tale of the tape that's happening because of greater benefits of O triple B. Now remember, with those greater benefits, people are going to have less withholding in 26. So not only is their refund higher, but they're also getting more cash in their pocket in 26 through the tax changes that were implemented. And then there was a whole bunch of things that were going to expire, you know, small business benefits that, you know, in the president's great legislature he implemented permanency with obviously Congress and Senate. So when you take all that and then you say the last item is, well, there's some people who aren't getting refunds because they had other items, capital gains, other items and are getting a full tax benefit so the refund is one part of the story. Then there's the permanency for things that people had that they were going to lose. There's the Trump account, and then there's withholding. So that's why it's so darn powerful.

[Interviewer]

They say, I think you said the average tax benefit is up over $780. That's the number that I, that I see.

[Frank Bisignano]

Yeah, it's probably up a hair more right now, but yeah. And, you know, if you think about that for a household, you know, that's, that's a really, that's, that's, that's real money. I mean, that's a, you know, a real benefit. But like I said, all of those, you know, here's a good way to think about it, too. Thank you for the opportunity. 45% of Americans who have filed, and we're way past the 50% mark right now. So we're deep in, as I said to the staff this morning, we're deep into the season. We're in the fourth quarter of this game. Right. And if you think about it in a sports term, and, you know, I don't think any of us thought the number would be 45% of those who've already sent their returns in have a Schedule 1A. And that means that's the percent of Americans that are getting some benefit other than the fact that we kept permanent what was going to go away. But on the Schedule 1A, that's a stunning number.

[Interviewer]

Well, how does that, how is that different from before?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, that would be zero. There was zero. Right. No tax on tip, zero. No tax on overtime, zero. The deduction for seniors, which will, you know, I think overtime is the largest subscribed seniors will probably get the largest benefit. And then obviously no tax on car loans. So none of that existed before.

[Interviewer]

So would you say that is your kind of, would you tout that as your biggest success thus far?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I think it's, you know, I'm just here to get the work done. You know, this is really the president leading this, and my job was to execute it. But I will give the team tremendous success in that we did all the technology changes, put everything in and are serving the American public better than before. And by the way, guess what they are doing using our online capabilities. Digital first. Right. The ability to not. We're getting less phone calls this year than last year because people have online capabilities that we built in the past.

[Interviewer]

There's been examples of the IRS being kind of weaponized as a kind of a Tool. And I'm wondering, this is something that I think existed at some level, at least when you came into your role. How are we dealing with that?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, it goes back to, at the end of the day, our job is to uphold the law. You know, we're a multi dimensional organization. We serve the American public, we're financial services. But we have to make sure everybody is doing what they're supposed to be doing. And you know, I think it's another great opportunity that you'll see happen over the next two years of us applying technology to leave out people to decision making, not just work. Right. So when you, you find out, and many times, you know, we can help people better do their taxes better. And I also believe that, you know, the tax preparers have a responsibility here and I've had very good receptivity from them. And in terms of us getting together and talking about how they could do a better job so that taxpayers have all the right information and can be 100% compliant, we enter. Remember, we have a usually compliant system here. We have a hugely compliant system. And some people don't always just get it right. And that's a simple error. And then sometimes it's more complicated situation. That's a very, very small, small minority. It's not the majority.

[Interviewer]

Okay, well, just so what I was thinking about specifically, like there were examples and I think this happened at some scale where there was, you know, kind of favoritism for certain types of nonprofit entities or lack of favoritism for others. And so it was kind of. There's this human element in it. Right.

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, that's where I really believe technology can cover a lot of ground and present the cases appropriately. And then you're going to get solid decision making and you'll be able to actually have much better information.

[Interviewer]

I guess it's a paper. There's. Well, not. It's, I guess technically it's not a paper trail, but it would be. You could track it better. Is this the idea?

[Frank Bisignano]

Yeah, I mean, like, look at the amount of things we could do. You know, everybody gets concerned when you use the word AI. Except I don't. It's technology. The cloud's technology. AI is technology. Years ago, Local area networks is technology. Before that, mainframes. Let's just talk about technology as a great enabler and it'll make our workforce better. It'll help people be more compliant. It'll help tax preparers be more compliant for their people, which they really want to be, and to get a better outcome and a higher compliance Rate.

[Interviewer]

So back to the SSA for a moment. One of the things that I see keep coming up and I just like to understand for the record, the reality of it is this, that Social Security is going to become insolvent in a not too distant future. At least that's the narrative. Right. And I've seen all sorts of different explanations as to yes, it's true. No, it's not true. It's partially true. Can you kind of set the record straight for me? What is the situation?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I mean the last report by the actuary said in call it seven years if nothing is done, people get paid out at 83%, not 100%. So that's the first thing because some people think it's zero when you say solvency. Now the practical issue is the President has been very, very clear. He's going to protect and preserve and he's going to protect, preserve and strengthen. Right. And so there is no vision of zero occurring here. But the first thing that had to occur in my opinion as the commissioner of Social Security, get the books and records, right, eliminate fraud, waste and abuse, serve the American public in a manner they're being served, which gets them to feel we have a modern day system and then obviously this all gets solved by Congress. Right. And so I have high confidence, I had high confidence coming into the job. I always believed the job was root out fraud, waste and abuse. Found billions of dollars from that deliver a great product for the American public going on right now. It will continue to go on and give our lawmakers what they need to make a good solid decision.

[Interviewer]

And just so I get it, like in a kind of, in a nutshell here, you mentioned that you were able to find billions of dollars in that waste fraud. Can you just kind of summarize for me where that came from?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, it's fundamentally on proper payments. You know, we'll sit around a table on Monday and go through a series of risk factors and we'll always be on how we drive improper payments higher. Right. I made the point when people would say it's, you know, it's 99% accurate. You know, I. Oh, well, it's supposed to be 99.99999. That's the place I came from.

[Interviewer]

And billions come out of that.

[Frank Bisignano]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer]

That's astonishing. Well, it's hard to, I mean you, you would understand that given your background.

[Host]

Right.

[Frank Bisignano]

But it's just fortunate to be here. And I just want to serve the President's administration, do the best job I can, I guess. I would.

[Interviewer]

But the bottom line is, you're saying through efficiency, you found this.

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, that's. That's accuracy.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Frank Bisignano]

Okay. Right.

[Host]

Right.

[Frank Bisignano]

When you have a file that has all types of people on it that maybe shouldn't be on it, as the president had identified. Right. I mean, that's in the tip of the iceberg thought. Right. So we don't go around publicizing the cleanup of the databases. Right. We don't go pointing fingers and blaming people. I've always believed, let's go get the job done and no one will tell people the outcome.

[Interviewer]

As we finish up soon, what is it that people should be watching out for, both in terms of Social Security, if that's where their minds are, or tax season and IRS related work?

[Frank Bisignano]

Well, I don't know that I'd say it's watching out as opposed to capability. What capabilities should be people looking for from both of these organizations? Because I talk about digital first. Well, I think first, if you go to the Social Security website, you open my Social Security account, you've just opened a whole digital channel to operate through that. If you didn't have. If you weren't one of the hundred million who have one. And I'm pretty darn proud of that number, by the way, because it wasn't that number when we started at all. If you're not, you should have it. It's a capability that you can access 24 7. I think the same for the online capabilities we offer at irs. Everything from where's my refund? To, you know, people's tax accounts. It's all available. And of course, we're always thinking about how to make our websites better, our presence better, how do we digitize it better. But the capabilities that it's getting used right now on both is used by, you know, hundreds of millions of times a year. And so I'd say think digital first, but know that we're a phone call away or a personal visit away in either one of those, anytime you want it.

[Interviewer]

Well, Frank Bisignano, it's such a pleasure to have had you on all.

[Frank Bisignano]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Interviewer]

Thank you all for joining Commissioner and CEO Frank Bisignano and me on this

[Frank Bisignano]

episode of American Thought Leaders.

[Host]

I'm your host, Janje Kelik.