American Thought Leaders: How the CCP Monetizes the Bodies of Its Prisoners | Matthew Robertson
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Jan Jekielek, The Epoch Times
Guest: Matthew Robertson, Research Fellow, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation
Episode Overview
This episode delivers a detailed, evidence-based exploration of China’s organ transplantation system—a system that, according to extensive research by Matthew Robertson, is fundamentally distinct from global norms. The conversation investigates forced organ harvesting as practiced in China, scrutinizing evidence pointing to the systematic targeting of prisoners (including prisoners of conscience) as non-consenting organ “donors.” The episode dissects the available data, opaqueness, and incentives that drive the illicit organ trade, providing compelling insights for skeptics and the uninitiated.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. How Organ Transplantation Works Globally vs. In China
- Norms elsewhere: Organs are donated voluntarily, most commonly from individuals declared brain dead in a hospital, governed by transparent and ethical systems.
- China’s approach:
- Until at least 2015 and likely beyond, almost all transplanted organs are sourced from prisoners, including death-row and political prisoners, and possibly even homeless individuals.
- The state, military, and paramilitary hospitals are implicated as key actors, often selling organs for cash rather than distributing by medical need.
- Private hospitals, though less common, are still tied to party officials or surgeons who have state affiliations.
"So at least until 2015 and probably subsequently, China's model of organ transplantation was very different. Almost the sole source of organs were prisoners of one kind or another."
– Matthew Robertson (03:35)
2. Evidence of State-Sponsored Organ Harvesting
- Official admissions: Chinese health officials, notably Dr. Huang Jiefu, have acknowledged the procurement of organs from prisoners and the existence of organ markets.
- Medical publications: Explicit descriptions reveal organs were removed before donors were legally or medically deceased, violating the "dead donor rule."
- Trafficking evidence: Prior to crackdowns driven by international scrutiny, hospital websites openly listed price schedules for organs. Backup records confirm these were genuine.
- Emergency transplants: A high rate of “emergency” liver transplants is inexplicable unless hospitals had pre-blood-typed and executed prisoners on demand, suggesting systematic, on-demand sourcing.
"The evidence there is Chinese medical publications that, you know, show quite explicitly that the donor was not deceased by any medical or legal criterion at the time of the procurement. And therefore, you know, there's a violation of the donor rule."
– Matthew Robertson (04:20)
"They would have, you know, price lists on the website for the organs... they're clearly being sold. It's a pay for treatment."
– Matthew Robertson (06:23)
3. Investigative Phone Calls and Verification
- Investigators posing as patients called hospitals, being told organs could be provided on demand, sometimes specifying Falun Gong as the donor source.
- Robertson verified the legitimacy of these calls by matching times, dates, durations, and confirming hospital numbers.
"So I confirmed to my satisfaction that like the call records, they showed that they made that call to that number of that length of time, and then the audio matched it. So I mean, the calls are real."
– Matthew Robertson (13:30)
4. Who Are the Organ Donors? Falun Gong & Uyghurs
- Falun Gong: Correlation between mass detentions (post-1999 crackdown) and a dramatic uptick in transplant activity around 2000. Official data show a rise in medical papers on transplants, consistent with the large-scale repression and mass health checks targeting this group.
- Uyghurs: Post-2017, evidence including leaked police files shows DNA and blood testing of hundreds of thousands in Xinjiang. Survivor accounts describe repeated medical exams highly suggestive of donor screening.
- Scale and infrastructure: The expansion of transplant infrastructure aligns with, and relies upon, the ongoing detainment of such vulnerable populations.
"If you look at indicators of transplantation activity, several key indicators suddenly go up in the year 2000, so … six months after the repression [of Falun Gong]."
– Matthew Robertson (15:58)
"From the Xinjiang police files... there’s been a mass blood testing of this population. And then ... large-scale DNA collection as well."
– Matthew Robertson (30:30)
5. The “Dead Donor Rule” and Smoking Gun Evidence
- In their co-authored paper, Robertson and Dr. Jakob Levy documented at least 71 Chinese medical papers where procurement of organs was the cause of death.
- The real number is likely much higher—only a fraction of operations are written up; study criteria were intentionally strict for clarity.
"There is just a technical challenge in the procurement of a heart from someone who is alive and ... you can't kill them so that their heart stops beating … the heart will not resuscitate, you know, in the host."
– Matthew Robertson (38:40)
6. Doctors' Role within the State Apparatus
- Chinese medical professionals lack real autonomy, functioning more as arms of the party-state. Doctors cannot refuse participation in state-sanctioned abuses without severe consequences.
"In a state like China, the medical profession does not have actual professional autonomy. Like it's an arm of the state."
– Matthew Robertson (40:02)
7. Origins and Incentives of the System
- Elite CCP members have a privileged healthcare system, long controlled by transplant specialists. The system grew alongside economic reforms, privatization, and the incentive for party members to profit from local growth—including hospital revenues.
- When a large, detained population became available (e.g., Falun Gong in the early 2000s), the system monetized political enemies' bodies through organ markets.
"It's just—they created a market in the organs of their political enemies. They were filling a demand because the demand for organs is very big."
– Matthew Robertson (46:41)
8. Extractive Repression: Profit Through Atrocity
- Unlike typical models wherein repression is costly, China’s system profits directly from persecuting specific groups.
- International medical recognition was in part based on advances achieved using organs harvested under these abusive conditions.
"I'm simply attempting to direct attention to a form of repression that is profitable and which the state can then use to enhance its capacities through the act of repression."
– Matthew Robertson (50:19)
9. Comparison with Other State Medical Abuses
- Psychiatric abuse (e.g., psychiatric diagnoses for political dissidents) stopped after international professional outcry, showing that global pressure can work.
- For organ harvesting, absence of coordinated human rights advocacy and major media attention has left the system largely unchallenged.
"The key is it was elite networks that led to that effect. So ... many things depend on people who have more power doing things."
– Matthew Robertson (64:02)
10. International Policy and Next Steps
- Slowly, the U.S. and other countries are introducing measures to sanction involved individuals, bar insurance funding, and collect true data.
- Robertson considers these efforts overdue but important, even if they are only a starting point. The playbook for impact likely requires coordinated professional and media pressure.
"If you would like, a list of all the possible things that could be done, it would be as long as your arm. And the legislation is going to address some of them, of course … I'm sure there's countless more things that [the US government] could do."
– Matthew Robertson (62:06)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
"They created a market in the organs of their political enemies."
– Matthew Robertson (46:41) -
"Chinese medical publications show quite explicitly that the donor was not deceased by any medical or legal criterion."
– Matthew Robertson (00:20 and 04:20) -
“I think implicitly the objection or the aspect of it that perhaps leads to a lack of credence in these claims is that they seem really bad. And so therefore it couldn't really be that bad.”
– Matthew Robertson (48:13) -
“So, the heart, the removal of the heart is the proximate cause of death in those cases. That's what our paper shows.”
– Matthew Robertson (06:09) -
"There is just a technical challenge in the procurement of a heart from someone who is alive and ... you can't kill them so that their heart stops beating because then the heart will not resuscitate, you know, in the host."
– Matthew Robertson (38:42)
Key Timestamps for Important Segments
- [00:20] – Evidence from Chinese medical publications
- [03:35] – Breakdown of China’s unique transplant system
- [06:09] – Death by organ extraction ("dead donor rule" violation)
- [07:25] – Emergency transplants; evidence for on-demand killing
- [14:43] – Identifying the main sources of organs (Falun Gong, Uyghurs)
- [22:56] – How the famous “execution by organ procurement” paper was composed and received
- [30:30] – Uyghur camps, DNA testing, and vulnerabilities
- [40:02] – Chinese doctors as agents of the state
- [46:41] – The genesis of the system: political enemies, party elites, and markets
- [50:19] – “Extractive repression” explained
- [54:07] – International and US legal responses, and limitations
- [58:13] – Psychiatric abuse parallel and the lessons for advocacy
- [62:00] – Mainstream media and human rights organizations’ role in shaping response
- [64:37] – Final advice: “Just read the papers.”
Tone and Style Notes
The episode is stark, academic, and direct, with a tone of both methodological rigor and moral urgency. Robertson is methodical—he avoids speculation, often referencing empirical evidence and methodological standards, but does not mince words about the moral horror of the system. Jekielek, the host, presses for clarity and brings out the implications for Western listeners and policymakers, maintaining empathy and focus.
Closing Thoughts
Matthew Robertson’s research highlights a system of systematic abuse masked by state secrecy and global doubt. The pathway to change, as outlined, will require direct, coordinated efforts across elite networks—academic, governmental, and media. The evidence, hidden in plain sight, awaits those willing to confront its implications.
Final Call to Action (64:37):
“Anyone who is organ harvesting curious is wondering if this is actually a thing. I would say just actually read the papers, just look at them and use your own brain to assess the evidence.”
– Matthew Robertson