A (2:57)

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I don't know what it would look like for the Lai family to sit through the sentencing. So again, my thoughts and prayers are with Sebastian and Claire and the whole team.

B (3:16)

So I mean, you yourself haven't seen your father for I think it's about seven years because of travel restrictions and so forth. So give me a picture. What is his status right now? What is the situation with him?

A (3:33)

Yeah, so my father's church in 2018 was officially shut down in Beijing. And since then he has been under an exit ban from leaving China. Prior to that, my mother, my brothers and I had moved to the US with the blessing of the church so that we would not be collateral damage. And so since then, because my father has been exit banned, it has not been safe for us to go back to China. And so we have been living. We were able to communicate via Zoom and like various online tools, but generally speaking, we haven't seen him physically, we haven't. There's so many parts of our lives that he has missed out on. Like, he was not able to walk me down the aisles at my wedding. He was not able to like attend my baby's baptism and all of these things. So. And my brothers have. Was an elementary school student and is now about to graduate high school. And none of those events have have been like, physically witnessed by my father since 2018. But in October of 2025, the church continued to grow. And so In October of 2025, the government has detained my father along with initially close to 30 leaders of the church. And now 18 people, including my father, are still detained in China and Guangxi Province. And so now it's gotten even worse. Like we can't even talk to him at all. Like, we are not able to communicate with him directly, not even with letters, not even with phone calls. And the only communications that we can have is through his lawyers currently, who might see him once a month or even less sometimes depending on their schedule. So that's sort of where we are at right now.

B (5:45)

Take us back to October 10, 2025. And clearly you knew that there was something kind of in the works since 2018. This is the reason you left. But the church still flourished despite being somewhat restricted. Just explain to me how that changed and then what happened on the 10th.

A (6:13)

So let's go back to 2018. That was part of a wave of general persecution on like many Christian churches and many other religious organizations as well. But in terms of, for Christians, you saw like tearing down of crosses, putting portraits of Xi Jinping and Mao Zedong on church buildings. You saw that with the independent church or house churches, like many times. We heard about various raids every week, like where pastors would be dragged out from their podium and whoever was by like tens of police would storm in. And anyone who tried to stop the taking away of the pastors would be also equally punished. So that was, in a way, that was the backdrop of, like, a general trend of what was happening in China. And at that time, in September 9th of 2018, my father's church was also shut down. And hundreds of police came to our church building that Sunday and threw everyone out and had kept my father inside for many hours. And we weren't able to communicate with him at that point. And then after a few hours, they released him. But everyone was heavily surveyed for several months. No one in Beijing would offer another meeting place for Zion Church. Zion Church was officially deemed illegal business operations, etc. And after that, my father had continued to want to minister to his congregation. So we started doing this online offline hybrid model, and we didn't know where that was going to go. But in fact, in 2020, when Covid and the pandemic happened, the whole world shut down. But especially in China, there was a policy where no one was able to leave, and it was leave their houses for months at a time, et cetera. And so at that moment, Zion Church's model of this online worship actually exploded and expanded nationwide. And so Zion Church, despite government persecut, grew out of this desperation and out of this, like, forced way of meeting online because, no, there was no physical location for us, has become a new model and a new kind of revitalization of the church itself. And so because of that influence, I think in October 2025, we see that beginning in 2025 and now up to 2026, there is a new wave of persecution coming, targeted to Zion Church, but to many churches and many other religious groups as well. And so in that context, on October 10th, I found out that my father was detained along with 27 leaders of my father's church at that point from all across the nation. And currently we know that 18 of them are still detained.

B (9:45)

Now, I understand Zion Church, I mean, this was publicly done on the Internet. You know, this is available. Like the authorities could watch it themselves. Right. So this is. There's some kind of an attempt to. It might be difficult for people to understand how is it possible that you were having church services online with the authorities watching, even after, you know, being shut down?

A (10:08)

Yeah.

B (10:09)

And then, of course, we know what happened, but how did that work?

A (10:13)

I think that my father's church was always very open about our church gatherings. We assumed that we would be watched by authorities. And then if they shut down an account, we just open another account. And then we say, if there are spies, then we minister to them too, and we welcome them to join in our Sunday services as well. So we operated, like you said, very openly and we are not against the government. So we also didn't like, say anything too political. We were just trying to worship like a normal church in the US and the rest of the world. And so we had nothing to hide. I think that, I think that even with the charges that we are being charged with, it's called illegal use of information online. And if you push them and you ask them what is the illegal information that is being spread, they can only point to, yes, the sermons and the worship music that is still available on YouTube and you can go and check it out and then it's very much just like a normal church anywhere. But so then you then have to ask the question of why is that illegal in China and what is it about this normal sermon and worship music that is illegal and why? And I don't want to be the one answering to those questions in communist China.

B (11:51)

Well, but clearly you've thought about it, right? Like why, why, like what is your, what is here, here in America? But of course, you know, we know that this video will certainly be viewed by some interested parties in communist China. Positive people that are very supportive and people that are not. Why do you think that is?

A (12:13)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what we've always hear, whenever we bring up like religious freedom and situations like my father's church, they will say there is religious freedom in China. All you have to do is join the government and register with the government. And then again, in a situation like this, they say, well, if you don't break the law, if you join our channels, then you can do whatever you want. But what most people don't understand is that in order to join the channels, you have to have special, like you have to get special license, and then only special license people can view it. And then all of that is then being monitored and being censored. And if you don't have, if you don't preach exactly like what the Communist China leadership wants you to preach, then you get your license revoked, etc. Etc. So again, you, you can, you can say you have freedom. And yet by the action, the very action that you do, you are limiting sacred parts of your, your life. Not like these are sermons and worship songs. They're not, they're not political things. They're not. Yeah, like they are, they should be in the realm of the church and not in the realm of party officials. So I think that in China, often what I feel is that they want to control everything, including the very Intimate things of what you believe in. And so for churches it's either you capitulate and. Or you die is sort of the model.

B (14:07)

You capitulate or you die. But you seem to, at least for a while, found some sort of way through it, right?

A (14:19)

Well, I think.

B (14:20)

But ultimately, yeah, yeah, it couldn't last, I guess.

A (14:24)

I think it was also a different era perhaps where China was seemingly more open not just to Christianity, but there were like various NGOs that was also, that was also on the ground starting up. There was like early 2000s. There was a lot of like foreign businesses that came in and a lot of like social groups that were started and such. And I think now we see that it's not just the church that is being persecuted, but many of those social organizations are also all kicked out. And part of it again, I think since Xi Jinping came into power, he's held on to like this battle of ideology. And that's when we saw like this concept of sinocization of religion. And I've been saying that ultimately Sinozization of religion is not about making religion more Chinese. Like you can see, like Taoism is also being Sino sized and yet Taoism is very Chinese, as Chinese as it can get. And similarly in Christianity it's no longer the situation where you had like foreign missionaries that was preaching in Latin or using like English Bibles etc. It was Chinese translated Bible, Chinese pastors preaching in Chinese language, very much grounded in Chinese theology and history and such. So it is already sinocized. And at that point they were just trying to partify, like make sure that you are under the control of the party. And you see that like in September, I believe Xi Jinping also led a Politburo study on sinocization of religion. And that was a signal to many people that ideology is again being emphasized. And that's also why we saw the crackdown of Zion Church in October and many other churches, December, January, etc. As well.

B (16:45)

It's fascinating. You said, you know, partified. I was thinking Marxified. Same idea. Why do you think you see these pictures of Xi Jinping put on churches in prominent places, sometimes replacing crosses and so forth? What is that about?

A (17:04)

Yeah, I honestly don't know. Why, like it's funny because there are pictures of like there's a picture of. There are pictures of churches putting a cross in the middle and putting Xi Jinping's portrait on one side and putting Mao Zedong's picture on the other side. And in Christian like story, you know that Jesus was crucified next to two, like murderers or robbers. And so you're like, oh, those are the two thieves that got crucified next to Christ. But all jokes aside, I think that that again, it's a showcasing of who is the true leader of the church. And in a sacred building, I think that again there, we believe as Christians that God. Is the head of the church and is the soul head of the church. We believe that there is one God and that the first commandment is that thou shall have no other gods before me. So if we didn't believe that, we wouldn't be Christians in the first place. And yet the party wants to supplant that and say that you can worship as long as you, you kneel down before me first or that you have to get things approved by me. Your leadership has to be approved by me. Your sermons have to be approved by me. How many people are baptized has to be approved by me. Etc. Etc. So you realize that the Holy Spirit, the church, the leadership, like the congregation, they're not the, they don't determine like these spiritual realms. It is the party, again with their atheist agenda, that determines what the churches do. And I think that's symbolized with like a portrait of Xi Jinping and Mao Zedong in front of church buildings, etc.

B (19:06)

You know one thing that comes to my mind as you're talking about all this, it's. I don't, I have to confess, I don't read the Bible regularly, but I'm remembering a passage actually render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's. How does that apply here?

A (19:22)

Yeah, yeah, I hope I got that right. Yeah, yeah. I think that was. The Pharisees were testing Jesus and they gave him a coin and said, and such. And Christ said, like, who does this? Like, who's on the portrait of the coin? And it was Caesar and said, render on to Caesar what is Caesar's. And again, I think that Zion Church, like many of the underground or independent churches where we are not political, even if they detained us, we're not out there protesting on the streets. We're not creating havoc on and such. And they say, if you want to detain us, then detain us. We're ready. And yet we say what you can't take away is that we believe in God. He created heaven and earth and he created you and me. And he sacrificed his life for us. And that now I am a Christian. And we believe that like, then we believe that God is in control of My life, God is in control of my church, etc. And that's all that we are asking about. And yet even that, that even something that is so personal to you is now saying is now seen as a threat or is now not allowed in China.

B (20:47)

You know, I've been, I've been writing recently about the totalitarian nature of communism, not just Chinese communism, although specifically Chinese communism. And it's, you know, there is this need to control your thought. Right. And so that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to, the person has to believe what you demand they believe. Although that's good. Right? As long as you performatively accept it. Right. And that's very interesting. But what you're doing is just not performatively accepting it. Even just simply saying God is, is the ultimate authority. And I don't think the Communist Party likes that very much.

A (21:32)

Yeah, since my father's detention, I've been reading a lot about various other detained people in different Soviet or in past China, etc. And one of the just incredible thought leaders, Natan Sharonsky, and he would say that like in, in the Soviet times, most people perform double think in which you are, you, you, you don't even know if you believe in it or not, but you have to perform a certain way. And yes, like you said, I think many people in China would say why don't you just say that you accept Christianity this way and just do that. And there are many people who are able to form that, that type of a double speak type of function in that type of way. But I also think that again, like, like, I think for, for Christians we see that this is not necessarily a new type of persecution. I think in the Bible we see that like pharaohs had, had tried to say, kneel down before me, before your God. Like King Nebuchadnezzar from like, of, of Babylon has said that like Daniel, kneel down before me before your like and put me in front of your God. And Caesars in the past have always said that like, like they are, they are God and not who we believe is the true Creator of Heaven and Earth, etc. And so we, I think they're. All that we are saying is that these, this is not a new phenomenal. This, this is not a new phenomenon. Many leaders had wanted people to worship them or to put them ahead of any of the other ideologies. But like, again this is, this is an intimate belief system and some people, you don't have to be a Christian. We're not going out there Forcing people to be Christian. But if you are a Christian, it is an intimate belief that we believe that God should be worshiped as the head and so like. And there is no room for that in China.

B (24:12)

What are the conditions your father's in? Out of curiosity? I just realized I wanted to know about that. What are you aware of? Even though I know communication has been cut off now.

A (24:20)

Yeah, yeah. Well, we only get information through, like, very limited information. So with the bits and pieces that we've heard is that it is a very crowded cell, it's in a detention center, and not even in a prison. So detention centers are technically. They're not meant for you to stay there for a long time. So they don't even have beds for you, and you're just sleeping on the floor potentially with some sort of a mat. Or maybe not even that. We heard that for the male detention center, there are. There are rooms, close to 30 people in a room, but all of our leaders are in separate cells, so they can't even talk to each other. We also heard that there's not even window pan panels on the window. So, like, when it rains or if it's windy, all of that comes into the cells. And we as family members can't give. Can't even mail in letters or medication or even, like, warm clothes or blankets to them. So we hear that they are, like, shivering at night and many of them had, like, arthritis flare up and all of these horrible, like, medical conditions. And many, many of their medical conditions are not being addressed because family members are not able to give medication. So it's. It is really difficult to think through and imagine that my father is in that situation and especially knowing that he is not in good health. My father has, like, severe type 2 diabetes. And so, like, we are very concerned and worried for his health and hoping that, like, we would be able to. He would be able to be released soon, especially because his health is failing fast.

B (26:22)

So you've had, you know, numerous conversations with various officials here in the U.S. i know, I know you even came from. We don't have to say who it was with, but just before this, this interview. And so what has been the reaction? Do you feel there's something they can do?

A (26:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you said, it has been incredibly. I am incredibly honored and just feel very supported by how many people in Washington and around the world who have said that they have heard about my father's situation and have. Are in support and solidarity and praying for my father. Not just leaders here, but also, like, church Leaders, friends, and many people would tell me that, like, their parents from a different state went to church and mentioned, like, my father's situation. And they would then text me and say, oh, like, my mom from Kansas mentioned your dad and said, do you know Pastor Ezra Jin? And he's like, yes, I actually work with his daughter. So it's been incredibly heartwarming to see that so many people in the US around the world, who has never met my father are praying and are caring about like a persecuted Christian. I think that I hope that there will be. Ultimately, I want my dad back. I want my dad to be out of detention centers. I want my dad to be able to be reunited with us in the US Be able to meet his grandchildren. And so many people are very sympathetic. And I hope and wish that we are able to somehow continue on building the pressure and to tell China to release these individuals and let them be able to worship freely and to come to the US to be reunited with their family members.

B (28:42)

So this, you feel like officials, let's say US Officials, basically calling for this. You think that's the most effective thing? Are there other things they can do as well?

A (28:53)

I'm very new to this world as well, and I've never really. I mean, there are so many people that I know of who's also had their family members in detention, like the Lai family, when you mentioned in the beginning. So I don't know what it would take for the Chinese government to function like a normal country, honestly, to just say that, to allow for people to worship freely, like what their constitution even, like, allows their citizens to do. And that's what I'm all that I were hoping for, that they would be able to be released. I don't know what it'll take for that to happen. I hope that. I hope that, yeah, that they will hear the message from all across the world that they will realize that it is in their best interest to just let them go.

B (30:07)

Have you encountered any. Okay. The Chinese regime is known for what's typically dubbed transnational repression, the targeting of family members, or just Chinese in general in America, in other countries. Have you encountered any of this?

A (30:28)

Yes. So I think the Chinese wants to intimidate people. And they're probably one of the largetheir country that has the most amount of transnational repression cases that's been reported from around the world. And many of them are not even reported because people are afraid to speak out. And since I've been speaking out about my father's case since October, my family and I have also been targeted and harassed by the Chinese government. Specifically my mom, who lives in Chicago area, she's been harassed by people on the. Like, on her phone, there were people impersonating federal agents, saying, claiming that she had committed fraud, that she has to go back to China to clear her name. And that's a very common tactic to kind of force people to voluntarily go back to China. We also saw most recently, my mom's tires were slashed inside her garage, but nothing else was taken. So it really is like a fear tactic. My husband has been targeted as well with a lot of fishing expeditions and cyber attacks.

B (31:51)

Meaning, like, they're sending phishing emails to try to get him to give up his passcodes and stuff like that?

A (31:57)

Yeah, yeah. And they're, like, very targeted. And for me, like, Even in Washington, D.C. i felt that I've been watched and followed, especially when I'm meeting people to talk about my father's case, etc. So we now live in a house surrounded by security cameras, and my husband sleeps with a metal bat next to his bedside, which is pretty ridiculous. But, like, I think that the fear is honestly pretty real, like, to know that. To know that China doesn't want people to be talking about this. And for them, like, they would rather for us to just quietly just let whatever happens happens. But, like, at this point, I also realized that China's not going to give my father a fair trial. So unless. And there is no such thing as a fair trial because his crime is not really a crime. Like, they just made the law to do whatever they want. And so I think that I have to speak out for my father in order for him to come back to us and be able to join us

B (33:21)

in the U.S. you know, just speaking of phishing, you just reminded me of something I hadn't thought of in a while, you know, years ago now, before we, you know, let's just say, put in some more sophisticated protections. Someone forwarded me an email that looked like it was from myself.

A (33:40)

Oh, wow.

B (33:41)

Right. To someone trying to get information. And I read the thing and I was like, wow, this really could have been me that wrote this. Like, it looks. It's in my voice. It seems a reasonable request. And it was a phishing. Exactly. A fishing expedition. So there is very. I was like, this is kind of unbelievable. I can't believe they're. Because a lot of the stuff you see, it kind of has what's so called Chinglish in it or whatever. Like, it doesn't look very sophisticated. But this was so you Know, I feel for that. And it's very easy to fall for it because it's just something. Something about it made the person say, did you. Did you really want me to answer this question? I was like, no, I really don't. And you can see it's not quite from my email. Right. It's a little bit of a different one. Any. So there's some very sophisticated operations. And that fear, I think they also capitalize on the fear.

A (34:33)

Yeah.

B (34:34)

Well, okay, what are you thinking right now, as you say?

A (34:36)

Yeah, well, like you said, I think that ultimately they want us to be quiet. And not to mention, like, it is like, I am a mere individual, and yet I'm trying to expose what has happened in the second most powerful nation in the world. They have everything in their toolkit. They have the justice system. They have police that can call, like, whoever. And again, like, I am just myself. And so, like, they have tons of people to craft an email to sound exactly like me and. Or to have other creative ways to out there to get me. And that is, like, it is a very fearful thing to think about. And I get it. Like, a lot of activists and people before me have also been targeted, have also been subject to this type of fear. But yet again, like, what are my options? I have to get my father out. And so, like, with that, even. Even with the fear, you're kind of like, pushed to this position of like, well, I have nothing that I. What? I can't do anything else but to keep speaking out.

B (36:11)

It's terrible because they force you into this situation. I'm thinking about Rushana Bas. I believe you know her as well, a good friend, you know, and they took her sister and she's been disappeared, Right. Because of her vocal activism and trying to advocate for the Uyghur people. Right. And, you know, they force you into the making this terrible choice.

A (36:35)

Right.

B (36:35)

Where you know that what you do might make it worse for your father or your family member or maybe better. It's unclear. Right. And so a lot of people will stay silent in that sort of situation because, you know, but maybe, like, I don't want to dig into this too much, but, like, you've made a very deliberate decision to be vocal. Why do you think this will work better than the other option?

A (37:03)

I don't know that.

B (37:04)

No. Better than the other option. Right. No, I know. Of course, we don't know. Right. When we choose to speak out about important things. Your point is great, right? This is a very. Whatever it is, it might be brittle, but it's a very powerful regime with a lot of resources. So, you know, some people have literally told me this. Right. So what's, what's the point? Yeah, like, how can you challenge such a, such a Leviathan? Right?

A (37:30)

And I think, like you said, it's. It's bizarre to have individuals having to do this type of, like a prisoner's dilemma type of game. And like, you have to figure out what's, like, you don't know how they're thinking or how they're like, judging what you do. And you're trying to do the best that you can in every single situation. And each situation is unique and different. And I don't know that what I'm doing is the best way. And I'm constantly just hoping and praying that what I'm doing is, is like, I'm just doing the best that I can. I think what I see is that there were many churches before my father's arrest that have been detained, have been sentenced many of them many times. They don't have opportunities to speak out. They don't have daughters in the US who are American citizens who feel the freedom to just do whatever I want as an American, as we should. And so, and so oftentimes they don't even have the ability to speak out. And yet they are still persecuted, and yet they are still sentenced for 15 years and such for again, just holding on to their faith. And so I didn't ask for this. I didn't come out to look for this. I was happy with my job and I was happy being just an normal person. And, and yet, and like, there, there, there is a, there is a point where you're like, well, the other. There are no other options either, and no one has tried it. So I might as well use this ability to speak out since. Since I am able to speak out, unlike many people before me.

B (39:36)

If I may comment a little bit, that that's beautiful. And you know, it's my own belief that truth telling. Yeah, right. To the best of your ability. Of course, we never have the grasp of the complete truth as sometimes people mention, but the attempt at truth telling. Yeah, speaking truth.

A (39:55)

Exactly.

B (39:56)

Very powerful.

A (39:57)

Exactly. And like you said, I'm not creating anything that isn't happening. I'm not exaggerating anything that isn't happening. I'm merely saying the facts. This is what happened to my father. And so, like, what else can I do? And why is that not allowed for me to just speak and say what has already happened?

B (40:21)

I wish you the best of success.

A (40:23)

Thank you so much.

B (40:25)

Maybe a final thought as we finish.

A (40:29)

I again, just feel extremely honored and privileged to have the opportunity to share my story. And thank you so much for. For have given me the platform. And I do just again, want my father to be released and come to the US and be with his family members and just be able to worship freely like everyone in the free world. So thank you.

B (41:00)

Well, Grace Jean, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.

A (41:02)

Thank you so much.

B (41:04)

Thank you all for joining Grace Jean and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Janja Kellogg.