Episode Overview

In this poignant episode of American Thought Leaders, host Janje Kellogg sits down with award-winning filmmaker Raymond Zhang, director of State Organs, a documentary exposing the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) secretive, brutal practice of forced organ harvesting. Through harrowing survivor accounts and the journeys of both perpetrators and victims’ families, Zhang explores themes of redemption, moral courage, and the battle to bring this crime to light—even as those involved face grave risks. The conversation underscores the importance of international awareness and the personal transformations that emerge from confronting this darkness.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Roots and Motivation Behind "State Organs"

• Background of Zhang’s Work (03:00)
  • Zhang began documenting forced organ harvesting after learning about the practice in 2006, but it was a 2016 interview with Dr. George Zheng, a military surgeon involved in the crime, that deeply shocked and motivated him.
  • Previous films (Human Harvest and Avenues of Escape) laid groundwork, exploring both the crime itself and escape routes for the persecuted.
• Quote:
  • “In 2016, when I first met Dr. George Zheng, I was utterly shocked. The degree of the cruelty of the organ harvesting is beyond imagination.” — Raymond Zhang [03:21]

Firsthand Accounts of Atrocities

• Dr. George Zheng’s Confession (04:44, 04:58)
  • Zheng recounts being ordered to remove organs from living victims—including a 17-year-old army conscript, killed because his blood type matched a senior officer in need.
  • The psychological torment of participating in this crime haunted Zheng for 17 years.
• Quotes:
  • “One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.” — Dr. George Zheng [04:44]
  • “The blood spring out and when he took out the kidney, the vessels are still pulsating and trembling... The interview stopped on day one because of emotional breakdown.” — Raymond Zhang [04:58]
• Redemption Through Testimony
  • Sharing his story, Zheng experienced unexpected relief and redemption from his enduring fear.

Victims’ Family Journeys: Grief and Awakening

• Yun’s Story (08:15, 14:26)
  • Yun, a Falun Gong practitioner, was forcibly disappeared after police abduction; her last recorded messages to her family illustrate desperate fear and a plea to the international community.
  • Yun's family, particularly her sister Michelle in Canada and father Jim in China, underwent a profound transformation— from despair and atheism to awakening and spiritual embrace.
• Quotes:
  • “When we get to heaven, we will see each other again.” — Yun’s Sister [01:22]
  • “Michelle was once an atheist... She didn't understand the energy practice, but gradually came to understand it and eventually embraced the spiritual practice. This is the journey of awakening...” — Raymond Zhang [14:26]
  • “[Jim Zhang] spent 18 years searching for his missing daughter, going to Various government agencies, police stations, labor camps, only to face evasion, cover ups, intimidation and eventually the death threat.” — Raymond Zhang [15:20]
  • “There is no point in living. I have no way out.” — Jim Zhang [15:51]

Perpetrators’ Conscience and Hope for Redemption

• Police Officer’s Change of Heart (10:04)
  • The film includes the story of a police officer moved to repentance by the steadfastness of his Falun Gong prisoner.
  • Theme: Even the complicit can find hope if they reconnect with their conscience.
• Quote:
  • “For those involved in the persecution, as long as there is a trace of conscience, there's still hope... The weakening of their conscience becomes the process of saving themselves.” — Raymond Zhang [10:04]

International Ramifications and Resistance to the Film

• Intimidation Tactics in Taiwan (16:24, 17:04)
  • Screenings of State Organs in Taiwan have been met with bomb and death threats; threats tracked to sources outside China, presumed to be CCP intimidation.
  • Despite these, local leaders and the public stood firm, continuing with screenings—garnering widespread attention.
• Quotes:
  • “City Council has received a bomb threat for its plans to organize a screening of State Organs...” — News Reporter [16:24]
  • “Until today, there are more than 120 death threat letters in Taiwan... the typical intimidation tactic used by the Chinese Communist Party aimed at disrupting the normal life of the Taiwanese people.” — Raymond Zhang [17:04]
• Political Significance (18:41, 19:22)
  • Taiwan’s current president and vice president were once young activists exposing these crimes.
  • The Taiwanese legislature issued a formal condemnation, urging the international community to investigate.
• Quotes:
  • “18 years later, these two young people became Taiwan's president and Vice president.” — Raymond Zhang [18:41]
  • “52 members of this House have united to sign a motion condemning these atrocities in the strongest possible terms.” — Legislative Yuan Representative [19:22]

Transformation through Filmmaking: Zhang's Personal Journey

• Art as Reflection of the Artist (20:54, 23:22)
  • Zhang describes his process of moral self-cultivation during the making of the film, striving for purity of intention to honor the seriousness of the subject.
  • Making the film led him to a sense of inner freedom and personal redemption, mirroring the journeys of his subjects.
• Quotes:
  • “A true freedom from inside out. A feeling that I never have experienced before. To my humble understanding, the true freedom means being free from sinful desires, being free from complaint and being free from selfishness.” — Raymond Zhang [21:55]
  • “Producing this documentary is also a journey of self redemption for myself as well. Born and raised in mainland China and I thought I had a clear understanding of the CCP.” — Raymond Zhang [23:22]

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• The brutality up close:
  “One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.” — Dr. George Zheng [00:04, 04:44]
• Personal transformation through truth:
  “This omnipresent fear and never ending pressure suddenly vanished. He felt like he found a form of redemption.” — Raymond Zhang [01:05]
• Hope and the divine:
  “On the spiritual level. The further you distance yourself from the CCP and the closer you are to the divine, the safer and happier your life gonna be.” — Raymond Zhang [01:28]
• Unshakeable courage in adversity:
  “The screening will continue as scheduled, adding that she is not scared of the threats.” — City Council Speaker Kang Yoochun [17:52]

Important Timestamps

• [00:04]: Dr. George Zheng’s firsthand account of forced organ harvesting
• [03:00]: Zhang’s background and motivation for the film
• [04:44]: Description of the organ harvesting victim’s final moments
• [08:15]: Yun’s family’s story and archival audio
• [10:04]: Policeman’s repentance after witnessing persecution
• [14:26]: The journey of Michelle Zhang and family
• [16:24]: Bomb threats and CCP intimidation in Taiwan
• [17:52]: City Council’s defiance despite threats
• [18:41]: Recounting Taiwan leadership’s activism
• [19:22]: Legislative motion condemning organ harvesting
• [20:54]: Zhang’s artistic and personal transformation

Conclusion

This episode is a sobering exploration of one of modern history’s hidden atrocities. Through State Organs and his candid reflections, Raymond Zhang illuminates both the darkness of state-sanctioned crime and the resilience and transformation of those who confront it. The conversation serves as a call to action for both personal reflection and collective vigilance, urging international recognition and justice for the victims.