Inside Beijing’s Darkest State Crime—And Those Fighting to Expose It | Raymond Zhang

Summary

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Episode Overview

In this poignant episode of American Thought Leaders, host Janje Kellogg sits down with award-winning filmmaker Raymond Zhang, director of State Organs, a documentary exposing the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) secretive, brutal practice of forced organ harvesting. Through harrowing survivor accounts and the journeys of both perpetrators and victims’ families, Zhang explores themes of redemption, moral courage, and the battle to bring this crime to light—even as those involved face grave risks. The conversation underscores the importance of international awareness and the personal transformations that emerge from confronting this darkness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Roots and Motivation Behind "State Organs"

• Background of Zhang’s Work (03:00)
  • Zhang began documenting forced organ harvesting after learning about the practice in 2006, but it was a 2016 interview with Dr. George Zheng, a military surgeon involved in the crime, that deeply shocked and motivated him.
  • Previous films (Human Harvest and Avenues of Escape) laid groundwork, exploring both the crime itself and escape routes for the persecuted.
• Quote:
  • “In 2016, when I first met Dr. George Zheng, I was utterly shocked. The degree of the cruelty of the organ harvesting is beyond imagination.” — Raymond Zhang [03:21]

Firsthand Accounts of Atrocities

• Dr. George Zheng’s Confession (04:44, 04:58)
  • Zheng recounts being ordered to remove organs from living victims—including a 17-year-old army conscript, killed because his blood type matched a senior officer in need.
  • The psychological torment of participating in this crime haunted Zheng for 17 years.
• Quotes:
  • “One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.” — Dr. George Zheng [04:44]
  • “The blood spring out and when he took out the kidney, the vessels are still pulsating and trembling... The interview stopped on day one because of emotional breakdown.” — Raymond Zhang [04:58]
• Redemption Through Testimony
  • Sharing his story, Zheng experienced unexpected relief and redemption from his enduring fear.

Victims’ Family Journeys: Grief and Awakening

• Yun’s Story (08:15, 14:26)
  • Yun, a Falun Gong practitioner, was forcibly disappeared after police abduction; her last recorded messages to her family illustrate desperate fear and a plea to the international community.
  • Yun's family, particularly her sister Michelle in Canada and father Jim in China, underwent a profound transformation— from despair and atheism to awakening and spiritual embrace.
• Quotes:
  • “When we get to heaven, we will see each other again.” — Yun’s Sister [01:22]
  • “Michelle was once an atheist... She didn't understand the energy practice, but gradually came to understand it and eventually embraced the spiritual practice. This is the journey of awakening...” — Raymond Zhang [14:26]
  • “[Jim Zhang] spent 18 years searching for his missing daughter, going to Various government agencies, police stations, labor camps, only to face evasion, cover ups, intimidation and eventually the death threat.” — Raymond Zhang [15:20]
  • “There is no point in living. I have no way out.” — Jim Zhang [15:51]

Perpetrators’ Conscience and Hope for Redemption

• Police Officer’s Change of Heart (10:04)
  • The film includes the story of a police officer moved to repentance by the steadfastness of his Falun Gong prisoner.
  • Theme: Even the complicit can find hope if they reconnect with their conscience.
• Quote:
  • “For those involved in the persecution, as long as there is a trace of conscience, there's still hope... The weakening of their conscience becomes the process of saving themselves.” — Raymond Zhang [10:04]

International Ramifications and Resistance to the Film

• Intimidation Tactics in Taiwan (16:24, 17:04)
  • Screenings of State Organs in Taiwan have been met with bomb and death threats; threats tracked to sources outside China, presumed to be CCP intimidation.
  • Despite these, local leaders and the public stood firm, continuing with screenings—garnering widespread attention.
• Quotes:
  • “City Council has received a bomb threat for its plans to organize a screening of State Organs...” — News Reporter [16:24]
  • “Until today, there are more than 120 death threat letters in Taiwan... the typical intimidation tactic used by the Chinese Communist Party aimed at disrupting the normal life of the Taiwanese people.” — Raymond Zhang [17:04]
• Political Significance (18:41, 19:22)
  • Taiwan’s current president and vice president were once young activists exposing these crimes.
  • The Taiwanese legislature issued a formal condemnation, urging the international community to investigate.
• Quotes:
  • “18 years later, these two young people became Taiwan's president and Vice president.” — Raymond Zhang [18:41]
  • “52 members of this House have united to sign a motion condemning these atrocities in the strongest possible terms.” — Legislative Yuan Representative [19:22]

Transformation through Filmmaking: Zhang's Personal Journey

• Art as Reflection of the Artist (20:54, 23:22)
  • Zhang describes his process of moral self-cultivation during the making of the film, striving for purity of intention to honor the seriousness of the subject.
  • Making the film led him to a sense of inner freedom and personal redemption, mirroring the journeys of his subjects.
• Quotes:
  • “A true freedom from inside out. A feeling that I never have experienced before. To my humble understanding, the true freedom means being free from sinful desires, being free from complaint and being free from selfishness.” — Raymond Zhang [21:55]
  • “Producing this documentary is also a journey of self redemption for myself as well. Born and raised in mainland China and I thought I had a clear understanding of the CCP.” — Raymond Zhang [23:22]

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• The brutality up close:
  “One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.” — Dr. George Zheng [00:04, 04:44]
• Personal transformation through truth:
  “This omnipresent fear and never ending pressure suddenly vanished. He felt like he found a form of redemption.” — Raymond Zhang [01:05]
• Hope and the divine:
  “On the spiritual level. The further you distance yourself from the CCP and the closer you are to the divine, the safer and happier your life gonna be.” — Raymond Zhang [01:28]
• Unshakeable courage in adversity:
  “The screening will continue as scheduled, adding that she is not scared of the threats.” — City Council Speaker Kang Yoochun [17:52]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:04]: Dr. George Zheng’s firsthand account of forced organ harvesting
• [03:00]: Zhang’s background and motivation for the film
• [04:44]: Description of the organ harvesting victim’s final moments
• [08:15]: Yun’s family’s story and archival audio
• [10:04]: Policeman’s repentance after witnessing persecution
• [14:26]: The journey of Michelle Zhang and family
• [16:24]: Bomb threats and CCP intimidation in Taiwan
• [17:52]: City Council’s defiance despite threats
• [18:41]: Recounting Taiwan leadership’s activism
• [19:22]: Legislative motion condemning organ harvesting
• [20:54]: Zhang’s artistic and personal transformation

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Conclusion

This episode is a sobering exploration of one of modern history’s hidden atrocities. Through State Organs and his candid reflections, Raymond Zhang illuminates both the darkness of state-sanctioned crime and the resilience and transformation of those who confront it. The conversation serves as a call to action for both personal reflection and collective vigilance, urging international recognition and justice for the victims.

Transcript

[Dr. George Zheng]

One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.

[Raymond Zhang]

The boy killed in this film for his organs was a 17 year old army soldier.

[Janje Kellogg]

In this episode, I sit down with award winning filmmaker Raymond Zhang, the director of State Organs, a powerful new film exposing the brutal realities of forced organ harvesting in China.

[Yun's Sister]

My sister loved singing and danced well. My sister was kidnapped by police.

[Raymond Zhang]

It was finding the original recording of Yun that inspired me to start as a film at the very beginning.

[Janje Kellogg]

It's a story of redemption of a surgeon who once participated in these crimes.

[Raymond Zhang]

This omnipresent fear and the never ending pressure suddenly vanished. He felt like he found a form of redemption.

[Janje Kellogg]

It's the powerful journey of a victim's family from grief to strength.

[Yun's Sister]

When we get to heaven, we will see each other again.

[Raymond Zhang]

On the spiritual level. The further you distance yourself from the CCP and the closer you are to the divine, the safer and happier your life gonna be.

[Janje Kellogg]

This is American Thought Leaders and I'm Janje Kellogg.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

Raymond Zhang.

[Janje Kellogg]

Such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

[Raymond Zhang]

Thank you for having me, Yang.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

So you actually have made three documentaries. Two of them have been focused on forced organ harvesting. The first, of course, was Human Harvest. It won the Peabody Award, which made it the darling of the Canada Media Fund. And then it also had this incredible reach through an online film festival where literally millions saw it. The second film was particularly close to my heart. It's the film Avenues of Escape. And that's because the film is about this underground railroad that was bringing Chinese prisoners of conscience out from China through the Golden Triangle to Bangkok so they could get UN refugee status and get resettled in free countries. My wife and I, back in 2005, 2006, were actually working on this railroad. So it was wonderful to have documentation of that in a documentary. Very powerful and I'd recommend that to everyone. So. So tell me briefly how going through the process of making those first two documentaries inspired state organs.

[Raymond Zhang]

In 2006, when I first heard about the organ harvesting, I was shocked, but not that surprised. Born and raised in mainland China, I knew CCP had killed about 60 million to 80 million Chinese people over the past 70 years. So I thought I already knew those things. But in 2016, when I first met Dr. George Zheng, I was utterly shocked. The degree of the cruelty of the organ harvesting is beyond imagination. The boy killed in this film for his organs was a 17 year old army soldier. Since he was under 18, his parents spent about 10,000 Chinese yuan to get him into the army and hope he could get a better job opportunity in the future. Because he was from a countryside, he didn't know how to please or bribe his supervisor. He got a conflict with his officer and was put into a military jail. His blood type matched that of a high level military officer. So the army decided to kill this boy for his two kidneys and one eyeball. His parents probably never know what happened to their kid.

[Dr. George Zheng]

One doctor asked me to take his eyeballs. When I looked at him, I saw fear in his eyes. His eyelids were moving. He was alive.

[Raymond Zhang]

Dr. George Zheng told me. It's so demonic. The position cut into the body, the blood spring out and when he took out the kidney, the vessels are still pulsating and trembling. Normal person in that situation would go insane, Overwhelmed with emotion. Couple times he rushed into the washroom, turned on the faucet and cried down there for a long, long time. The interview stopped on day one because of emotional breakdown. But after the interview, he told me with tears in his eyes. He had been living in the extreme fear every day over the past 17 years. Being scared day and night. Since there's a secret military operation, he always felt he was being hunted. Someone was chasing him, attempting to assassinate him. But after the interview, to his surprise, this omnipresent fear and never ending pressure suddenly vanished. As if his life and soul were relieved and redeemed. He felt like he found a form of redemption. When I looked at Dr. George Zhang's eyes, I saw a mixture of of complex emotions, of fear, worry, but also the courage and determination. Until today, Dr. George Zheng is the only military surgeon who directly involved in organ harvesting and has the moral courage to stand up to expose his most secret state crime. His courage and determination deeply touched me.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

Something that was really incredible in the film was you actually have this, what I call a voice from history. You know, from 2002, Yoon Jang. You actually have her original, original voice, her testament.

[Raymond Zhang]

It was finding the original recording of Yun that inspired me to start this film.

[Yun's Sister]

At the very beginning, my sister loved singing and danced well. My sister was kidnapped at least.

[Raymond Zhang]

This film features the original recordings of Yun right before she was kidnapped by the police and eventually forcibly disappeared into police custody after her husband was killed. While in detention, she shared his story and distributed flyers in Qingdao, China. This made her a target by the police who handed her down. At about 2am on April 19, 2001, she left messages for her sister in Toronto, Canada, recounting her family's plight her speech was somewhat hurried as she had felt that her situation was extremely dangerous because the policemen were outside her door. In the recording, she said her family's experience was only the tip of the iceberg in the persecution in China and hope the international community could help to end this persecution. And this was her last voice left of the world and was her only wish.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

The film also features a policeman who participated in this persecution. Can you tell me about him?

[Raymond Zhang]

Sure. A police officer on guard was deeply moved by the steadfast faith of the Falun Gong practitioner. Sujur. Zhanga. Here. He felt profound respect for them. His reflection and repentance brought him the redemption. The female practitioner who was killed held on her belief until her last moment, awakening the conscience of many, similar to how Jesus saved two thieves beside him before his crucifixion. For those involved in the persecution, as long as there is a trace of conscience, there's still hope. For them, the weakening of their conscience becomes the process of saving themselves.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

Raymond, of course you know that I'm completely with you in this, trying to expose more and more people, especially people who are making decisions in our societies about this issue. And we've already seen how the lack of action from free countries around this issue when the Falun Gong were initially targeted over decades that it seems to have now shifted also towards the Uyghur populations as millions of people, people were incarcerated in the camp. So I think you have a really good point in saying that this is something that needs to be dealt with quickly. Let's talk about a couple of the characters. I found this documentary particularly powerful in that you get to know a few people very well that are connected to the issue. And of course, Michelle is living in Canada with her kids and it's her sister Yun who has disappeared in China. Well, so tell me a little bit about how you found them and tell me a bit about them and their story.

[Raymond Zhang]

This is the journey of the awakening of the victim's family. Michelle Zhang didn't know how to explain what's going on to her children. If the country and the society can do this, what hope is left? She saw no hope. Michelle was once an atheist. She didn't understand the energy practice, but gradually came to understand it and eventually he embraced the spiritual practice. This is the journey of awakening where she found hope through the disappear.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

And then we have her father, Jim Zhang.

[Raymond Zhang]

Professor Jim Zhang, a victim's father, was a military officer who served the CCP for most of his life. Spent 18 years searching for his missing daughter, going to Various government agencies, police stations, labor camps, only to face evasion, cover ups, intimidation and eventually the death threat.

[Jim Zhang]

There is no point in living. I have no way out.

[Raymond Zhang]

During this 18 years, he went from fully trusting the CCP to recognizing its evil and lies. Along the way, they uncovered a most secret state crime and a grassroots movement that inspired the nation and then the world.

[News Reporter]

Kaohsiung City Council has received a bomb threat for its plans to organize a screening of State Organs, a documentary on China's government run organ harvesting operations.

[City Council Speaker Kang Yoochun]

The threat said several explosives had been put in the City Council building and they would explode at 5pm on Tuesday if the event wasn't publicly canceled.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

So Raymond, explain to me some of the challenges that you faced with screening this film, especially in Taiwan. I understand there were bomb threats and even death threats and a multitude of challenges.

[Raymond Zhang]

Until today, there are more than 120 death threat letters in Taiwan. When I heard the news, my first concern was the safety of the audience. After the local police conducted a thorough investigation, they found no explosives in the cinema. This become clear that all those emails were sent via VPN from outside China. And this confirmed. This is a typical intimidation tactic used by the Chinese Communist Party aimed at disrupting the normal life of a Taiwanese people.

[City Council Speaker Kang Yoochun]

City Council Speaker Kang Yoochun says the screening will continue as scheduled, adding that she is not scared of the threats. A meeting will be convened to ensure security on the day of the event.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

So what was the reaction of the people?

[Raymond Zhang]

Taiwan news agencies believe that this film hits the most sensitive nerve of the ccp. Some legislators believe that this film is an expose of the most secret state crime in China.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

So from what I understand, even the Taiwanese president actually got threatened as a result of showing this film. Can you just clarify for me why?

[Raymond Zhang]

Here's a story from Taiwan. When we held a press conference in the Legislative Yuan in Taipei, a legislator said with emotion. In 2006, two young people in this very same room held a press conference to expose this crime of organ harvesting. And 18 years later, these two young people became Taiwan's president and Vice president.

[Legislative Yuan Representative]

In response to the PRC government's escalating persecution and unlawful imprisonment of Falun Gong practitioners and the shocking reports of torture, live organ harvesting and appalling violations of human rights, 52 members of this House have united to sign a motion condemning these atrocities in the strongest possible terms. On behalf of the Legislative Yuan, we call upon international organizations to launch an immediate and independent investigation to expose the truth, stop these crimes and protect innocent lives.

[Raymond Zhang]

The characters in this film symbolize the various roles played by people both in China and around the world during this ongoing genocide. We live in a time where great good and great evil coexist. This page of history will be turned over soon. I hope. When we look back, none of us will have any regret. We all have done what we should and what we could.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

And so during the film, you actually experienced your own personal transformation. So tell me about that.

[Raymond Zhang]

Before producing this film, we have agreement on the team. We hope all the participants will benefit from the process of producing, distributing or promoting the film. And how can we achieve that? Chinese saying goes, art reflect the artist. The work of art often shows the true inner world of the artist. For example, Zhang Daqian, famous Chinese painter and calligrapher. Before painting the Bodhisattva, he would wash his hands, change clothes nicely and meditate. And after completing the painting, he would write Zhang Daqian paint with reverence on the artwork. With that in mind, I paid close attention to my cultivation of moral characters and cultivate the kindness within myself. I feel I have a cleaner and clearer mind. At the same time, I feel true freedom that every artist dreamed of. A true freedom from inside out. A feeling that I never have experienced before. To my humble understanding, the true freedom means being free from sinful desires, being free from complaint and being free from selfishness. Only then can you be your true self and express yourself freely.

[Interviewer (possibly Janje Kellogg or another host)]

It's an amazing process to go through. As you're making a film, I'm very interested in your own journey that you described of personal redemption. So, yeah, tell me about that.

[Raymond Zhang]

Producing this documentary is also a journey of self redemption for myself as well. Born and raised in mainland China and I thought I had a clear understanding of the ccp.