Janja Yekelik (2:03)

what you're going to pull.

Rob Schneider (2:04)

Not so comfortable, is it, Yan? Well, Jan, I've watched you for years and your professionalism, and it's nice to see you without your tie, for one thing. And it's nice to see you in the interviewee seat. You have a very vast knowledge about a lot of subjects. And the thing I really always loved about what you do is you're interested. You want to learn stuff. You want to learn how people think and why they think that and how this works or how that could happen, how that could come about. So it is a pleasure to have you here to talk about your book, Kill to Order.

Janja Yekelik (2:38)

I'm very grateful for your, frankly, deep and amazing interest in this brutal topic.

Rob Schneider (2:44)

There is this kind of understood covenant between the medical practitioner and the patient, which is seems to be the same for thousands of years, or as long as there's shaman or. Or more modern medical professionals, doctors Physicians. This is so outrageous and jumps so far beyond to where it asks you to accept the unimaginable. Is that a fair description?

Janja Yekelik (3:22)

When I first heard about it, I didn't want to believe it. I just felt revulsion and my mind was wandering, to be quite honest. Right. And it took. It took me seeing a lot of hard evidence. And I was open, to be fair, I was open to it. I already knew what the Chinese Communist Party was capable of, broadly, but I still didn't want to accept that this could be happening. Because it's so extreme.

Rob Schneider (3:50)

Because it's so extreme and the, the barbarism and the, the absolute lack of any sort of medical morality or ethics required. And then also the scale of it, because it's not just one person doing something evil in a basement. The idea of government systemic mass murder has always been hard to believe, whether it's been in the Holocaust and Auschwitz, you write in the book. But such trust to believe, to believe requires an enormous amount of moral imagination, an ability to grasp evil on a scale that defies reason. But even that is not enough. One needs the courage of what the mind rejects. Yes, it's just. Even that sentence I've never heard before. Because what we're really talking about is, as you say, kill to order. And you have to just explain that to people in the real simple terms so somebody like, I can understand it.

Janja Yekelik (4:55)

This is different than what you've heard about in terms of organ trafficking. You know, there's these urban legends that you hear about. Someone wakes up on ice, they've got a slice, you know, slit in their body and there's a kidney has been extracted or something like this.

Rob Schneider (5:10)

Yeah. Which is horrific.

Janja Yekelik (5:12)

It's horrific.

Rob Schneider (5:13)

But at least that guy is alive to tell the story and has a scarlet. This is another level.

Janja Yekelik (5:18)

This is. This is a whole different thing. You really. It requires, you know, you were referring to, you know, the reality of Nazi Germany and what they did to the Jewish people. It requires a state actor, someone who can push massive coercive power through a population, both in terms of propaganda. Okay. You have to be able to dehumanize a very large group of people and the eyes of their fellows. And the reason that part's important is most people aren't psychopathic. We have this weird quirk of. In our psychology, I think that when we start believing that someone is lesser than us or very diff, you know, somehow very different from us or somehow just evil, that that allows us to do some things to those people, that

Rob Schneider (6:03)

that person is a Threat to society and to all of us, that then atrocities become possible.

Janja Yekelik (6:10)

Right? You said it exactly on the nose. Okay. They become possible. Without that dehumanization part. Very hard to get that because people will be like, I'm not going to do that to that person. Right, yes. The second part is you need to be able to incarcerate a huge group of people. That's another reason why you need a kind of state actor. Because if you need a heart transplant, whether you're South Korean, Taiwanese, a super elite in China or here in the U.S. right. In two weeks scheduled, you could get yourself a heart transplant. Okay.

Rob Schneider (6:43)

Which is impossible. Knowing anything about organ transplantation, sometimes the weight is at minimum two years, five years. And most people, I would think, would die before even having that possibility.

Janja Yekelik (6:57)

Because in an ethical system, right. Someone has to have some kind of a catastrophic accident, likely a car accident. Okay. That they're really not coming back. Okay. You know, I know you like the Princess Bride, as I do. Right. And so there's this kind of line in there which I think is apropos. I don't know if it's how appropriate it is, but the person has to be mostly dead. Yeah, mostly dead. Okay. But in a. You get a whole team of ethicists that gets together and decides, yes, this person isn't coming back. Therefore it's okay to transplant those organs. And those organs have to match the tissue.

Rob Schneider (7:34)

Right?

Janja Yekelik (7:35)

Okay. Match blood type, match the size. Right, Right. And to get all of that, to have the accident and all of those things, match is rare, extremely rare. So you have to wait. Right. But here I can get it in two weeks. And how can I get that? Well, what happened in 1999. Okay. The Chinese Communist Party. In communist societies, there's always an internal enemy that the.

Rob Schneider (7:58)

Yes. To exist, communism must have an enemy.

Janja Yekelik (8:01)

Absolutely. The external enemy, by the way, is always America, always has been. Okay. Because even when we were helping a freedom. A hundred percent. Absolutely. Right. That's what. Yeah. That there's huge irony there. Right. They were always. There was years of propagandizing against America while America was giving everything. Yeah, but the internal enemy would change, Right. It was, you know, landowners at one point. Then in 1989, it was the student movement. Right. The student pro democracy movement. Students. And then in 1999, it became the Falun Gong practitioners. So that was a spiritual movement. People were practicing truthfulness, combassion tolerance. It was very grassroots, very bottom up in a way that I think the communists couldn't even understand. And you know, basically the Dictator at the time Jiang Zemin decided we're gonna eradicate it, to use his terminology, didn't necessarily mean kill everybody, by the way. It just meant killing. Rid of it. Right. We don't want this to be any. Any issue for us.

Rob Schneider (8:59)

It wasn't a real threat to the communist Chinese system at all. These are people that. You know, actually, if you go before you look before communism in China, this is. There's a tradition of spirituality which is remarkable that that would become considered somehow the foundational spirituality of China would somehow become the enemy of the state.

Janja Yekelik (9:27)

Yeah, precisely. This was actually an ancient practice, basically around from time immemorial. Just became very, very popular in the 90s. Also had health benefits.

Rob Schneider (9:36)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (9:37)

Which I experienced some benefits from myself at one point in my life. But the bottom line was when they decided to get rid of this, it turned out that the people that did this did not. What we call brainwash or re. Educate. That's what the communist term for it. Or a transform. I hate that term. Easily they really held to these. Their. Their core beliefs, and they wouldn't. And so they started torturing them to try to break them. And mass torture. Mass. Well, no, exactly, because they remember now they've incarcerated a whole lot of these people.

Rob Schneider (10:11)

How many people are talking. You're talking Falun Gong.

Janja Yekelik (10:13)

That's right. So there were. So there were 70 to 100 million people, by government estimate, that were doing this. Okay. And how many went into the prison and labor camp system? We don't know. Maybe a million, maybe two. It's. It's unclear exactly, but it was a mass thing. Right.

Rob Schneider (10:28)

That still exists today.

Janja Yekelik (10:29)

Still exists today to the tune of. I mean, I think the last Freedom House estimate was something like 40 million. I. But. But the truth is that 40. That we don't really know.

Rob Schneider (10:39)

Human beings incarcerated.

Janja Yekelik (10:40)

Well, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. So.

Rob Schneider (10:42)

Okay. No.

Janja Yekelik (10:43)

How many people exist in China doing this practice today?

Rob Schneider (10:46)

All right.

Janja Yekelik (10:46)

We don't know how many are.

Rob Schneider (10:47)

How many are hidden.

Janja Yekelik (10:48)

We don't. Yeah, we don't. It's actually kind of a state secret. How many.

Rob Schneider (10:53)

Right.

Janja Yekelik (10:54)

But back actually, I remember in 2005, the UN Human Rights Commission there was the special rapporteur on torture. His name was Manfred Novak. He estimated that half of all the people in the entire system were Falun Gong practitioners. So it's. I mean, massive numbers of incarcerated people we're talking about. Okay, so.

Rob Schneider (11:12)

So when you're talking. So in order to get this, as you say, this organ that is needed from particular, whether it's somebody flying over from the United States or Israel, as you talk about in the book, to be able to get something in two weeks, when the normal weight, if you're lucky, is two years to five years to get a match, you would have to have what at your disposal.

Janja Yekelik (11:37)

So because you have so many people in the system now, you can pre blood type, tissue type and organ scan them. Okay, so you have in a database all the vitals of some huge number of people. And that's how when someone, say in the U.S. right, wants to come and pays that money, 150, 200 grand, that person on the other side is already pre matched to them. Incarcerated, A prisoner of conscience, ready to be killed to order. And that's why the name of my book, the title is Killed to Order. Wow.

Rob Schneider (12:13)

It does really boggle the mind because in order to have that system ready for these involuntary organ transplants, there has to be, first of all, there has to be a mass incarceration. You have to biometrically check all the people that are incarcerated. And then you also have to have people incarcerating them. You have to have also physicians, expert physicians and nurses that are at beck and call for this procedure to take place. And so the actual, that's why it does become unimaginable to me. So how does that process work? So somebody will just. Is there an advertising mechanism or how do they know or people just know? So because most people in the world do not know how these organs are harvested, but the Chinese allows people to come from other countries as well as the elites to come and purchase an organ, whether it's 30,000 or $100,000, I guess the estimate used you say in your book recently something happened that exposed this involuntary organ transplant system and it was a hot mic incident. Can you tell us about that?

Janja Yekelik (13:29)

I, I honestly couldn't believe it when I heard about it. My phone was basically like ringing off the hook. I mean not, you know, not off the hook because we don't have hooks these days. Right? But yeah, but yeah, I mean, let me recount. So I'll give you the sort of, the, the thumbnail of, of what happened, but basically Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un are walking in Tiananmen Square quite a threesome, observing quite the threesome, observing a military parade. And she says to Putin, roughly, you know, when, when we're 70, we're just a baby, right? We're just babies. And then Putin responds, unbelievably at least, or believably, depending how you would look at it. Through continual organ transplantation, perhaps we can achieve immortality. Right.

Rob Schneider (14:20)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (14:20)

Wow. And then she responds, and this was the part that. Where the light bulb goes off in my head.

Rob Schneider (14:25)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (14:26)

Our target is 150 years. So 150 years is the kind of like a code you can think of. Like a code word. So there's the. The super elites in China have something called Project 981. And Project 981 is the super Elite longevity project. It's. And that indeed 150 years is the target of that project. So, you know, having looked at this issue for over 20 years now.

Rob Schneider (15:01)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (15:02)

It had never. I had compartmentalized these things. I knew there was a super elite longevity project.

Rob Schneider (15:07)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (15:08)

And they do indeed live many more years than the average person. Okay. Already. And I knew there was forced organ harvesting, but I never connected the two, so obviously. Right, yeah. Which is that through this continual organ transplant, through the availability of near instantaneous availability. Availability of organs for the super elites, they're actually living longer. And there's, you know, there's this crazy example that was sent to me a few years back. It was a eulogy of sorts. Okay. To a guy that basically, you know, it was. This sounds super crazy, right? Like you would, you would.

Rob Schneider (15:44)

Exactly.

Janja Yekelik (15:45)

Super. Like people would think this is nuts, but someone actually wrote a eulogy that said, isn't it amazing how this guy had multiple organs transplanted and therefore lived longer?

Rob Schneider (15:54)

Yeah. But the other side to that is at what cost?

Janja Yekelik (15:57)

Exactly. Exactly.

Rob Schneider (15:59)

So how did he, how did he procure these organs?

Janja Yekelik (16:03)

Well, so. So you actually asked me a moment ago, right. How do people know about this? Yeah, right. How do you find out? Well, for. So prior to 2006, and it still blows my mind, right. When we actually started reporting on this a lot. Right. It was online. Like we have archived ads that were online that said in a couple of weeks you can get a new heart for this amount of cash. Right. And then as soon as this became sort of reported on a little bit, a little bit a lot, those ads disappeared. And I'm guessing that the information stayed within these networks of hospitals and so on. I'll give you an example. Right. Another thing I talk about in there is this former explant surgeon from Germany explained to me this scenario where there's a woman who has this heavy drinking problem and clearly a very loose set of morals, and she has now gone to China to get a liver transplant three times, I think in under about 10, a 10 year period because she keeps needing to get. She keeps drinking Heavily. The livers keep getting compromised and she just gets another one. I wouldn't have believed this is possible except that this transplant X X plant surgeon verified this scenario, right. And this is fairly recent. And he believes that the way that she got connected with China is through the local transplantation authority in that. In the province where they worked.

Rob Schneider (17:39)

So she's clearly a sociopathic person.

Janja Yekelik (17:41)

Well, it would seem. No, selfish. These things are so cosmic. But I, like, I would have, I was more ready to believe this because I Remember back in 2007, another example, David Kilgore, who was one of the hero researchers, may he rest in peace. He's not with us anymore, unfortunately. But he interviewed a guy who was Taiwanese, who had gone to China, had a very rare antibody condition in his body, and he received, went to China and first kidney got, was rejected. So immediately they gave him a second and then they gave him a third, and then they gave him a fourth and none of those worked. So he goes back to Taiwan, okay. Goes back on dialysis, comes back four months later, and they try a fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth kidney. And the eighth one is the one that holds. And David Kilgourt interviewed the guy who actually had this done. Right. So, you know, again, unimaginable things can happen when you have, you know, on demand organs available.

Rob Schneider (18:48)

Eight different Chinese Falun Gong members were murdered for this guy's attempted new kidneys.

Janja Yekelik (18:57)

Most likely, yes. Most that. I mean, and this is so one of the huge tragedies of this, right? They built this on the backs of the Falun gong. Starting in 2000, the whole Chinese transplant industry grows geometrically from 2000 to 2005. Kind of like, you know, not, I don't even say exponentially, geometrically. Okay. And in 2005, it sort of starts to plateau, but grows a little more. And by the end of the 2000s, we've got 60 to 90,000 transplants a year being done. Okay? That's the best estimate. That's the range. It's very hard to estimate. This is a state secret. They don't have statistics. They pretend it's not happening. Right.

Rob Schneider (19:34)

It's a state secret. But clearly the very top of the Chinese elite know about it because they discussed it.

Janja Yekelik (19:42)

To go back to your, to go back to your point, right? I think for these Chinese super elites, the people, you know, the, the, you know, I forget the exact number, but something like 10 million people that have these so called red cards, we have access to every level of the system, including the super elite medical system, basically. It seems that they have unlimited on demand organs available to them basically in perpetuity. And this is what I keep thinking about this because it's about a $9 billion a year industry. If you look at those numbers, 60 to 90,000 transplants a year average it out.

Rob Schneider (20:17)

60 to 90,000 transplants, involuntary organ transplants a year in China.

Janja Yekelik (20:22)

Correct?

Rob Schneider (20:24)

That's right.

Janja Yekelik (20:25)

It's mind blowing. 40,000 was the record in the US last year. So it's a huge number and it's hard to fathom.

Rob Schneider (20:33)

Again, so 40,000 voluntary for people who were lucky enough to get this life saving procedure.

Janja Yekelik (20:41)

Correct.

Rob Schneider (20:42)

The organ transplant from someone who accidentally died and most likely car, motorcycle.

Janja Yekelik (20:47)

And that would also include the kidney transplants where sometimes they would, someone is giving up a kid.

Rob Schneider (20:52)

I would say that would be the majority. Combination transplants would be the kidney transplant.

Janja Yekelik (20:56)

Yeah, I don't, I, I would have to find out. I'm not sure actually on that point.

Rob Schneider (21:00)

But honestly, Jan, this subject I don't even feel comfortable joking about it is so it boggles the mind because it seems like one of the no go areas. I mean, I remember like, you know, any joke about the Holocaust. You couldn't, you couldn't. How? Because this, this is the only thing that harkens back to me is that it takes so many people to be complicit in this. And this is after the dehumanization process. This is after the vilifying of a group. This is after identifying the group, after alienating that group and then after taking that group out of society and concentrating them in a particular area, concentration camp. And then that requires so much. I mean, for Nazi Germany, it required people to be willing to identify the Jewish people or, you know, whether it was homosexuals or gypsies. And then those people to, to take them, imprison them, put them on trains and then the people on the trains and then the people transporting them. That whole process took 100%, hundreds of thousands of people to be able to do for the 6 million Jews and that were murdered in the concentration camps. So this particular thing also takes thousands. So I mean, has there been people that have been able to expose this, that were involved in that system?

Janja Yekelik (22:30)

I just, I want to make one comment before, before I answer your question. Right. The tragedy of really nothing being done about this for the better part of 14 or 15 years now we're talking 2000 to 2014, 2015, is that the Chinese Communist Party found another group to do the same thing to the Uyghurs. Dehumanize them, incarcerate a million plus of them and then start doing the same

Rob Schneider (22:59)

forced organ harvest the Uyghurs were taking place. I mean the Falun Gong were the first people. And then you do run out of enemies. And truthfully like what communist communists always have to have is they need an external enemy, but they also need an internal enemy.

Janja Yekelik (23:14)

Correct.

Rob Schneider (23:14)

And then to re energize that they need a new enemy because this idea of utopia that is promised, that never comes needs to be blamed on something besides the state. And so what was about the, the Uyghurs that was particularly vulnerable or how did they vilify them?

Janja Yekelik (23:31)

Well, so in a way there's already been a kind of project to culturally assimilate or I mean the US believes the official US government position on what's being done to the Uyghurs is genocide. And that's not a casual assertions. Not the way that people use genocide these days to mean like some sort of, you know, mass death is usually when people say genocide that that's what they mean. This is a different thing. This is an, an actual attempt to eradicate and whole or in part a group of people. So that's done in different ways. It's not always just through mass killing. Right. It's also done through preventing people from following their cultural norms. It's through sterilization through. Anyway, I, I could go on but multiple things all together would yield this very unusual designation. So the Uyghurs for some time have been considered to kind of because they're an ethnic minority. And there is this, we could just discuss the whole different topic of the Chinese Communist Party has been fueling a kind of Han supremacy ideology alongside it's to help bolster its own, its own rule. So they're all. Well, there's already a kind of a dehumanization aspect there in the northwest of China. It's a relatively small group, maybe 12 million people. I, I'd have to check the actual, the actual numbers, but something like that and, and it was just very convenient because there, it's a military controlled area. Right. People are only people allowed in. There are people who are going to say beautiful things and watch, you know, sort of these Potemkin villages type shows and, and cultural displays and things like that. So the short answer is it's a different culture. It's an area that's important strategically to the Chinese Communist Party. They're looking to assimilate it with their own people, with you know, basically people who put communism first. And it just Makes this group particularly vulnerable and very easy to use. And the worst part, and I hate, I hate even saying this, but there actually is a global market for what they call halal organs, which means Muslim organs. And these, the Uyghurs, are indeed a Muslim sect.

Rob Schneider (25:38)

Wow.

Janja Yekelik (25:38)

Yeah.

Rob Schneider (25:39)

So that would go to the Middle

Janja Yekelik (25:40)

east, obviously, and something like that.

Rob Schneider (25:42)

Saudi Arabia.

Janja Yekelik (25:43)

Yeah.

Rob Schneider (25:45)

And so going back to the idea that to expose this. Have there been survivors? Can you tell us about the survivors of this? And also maybe some of the physicians, Because I think to do something this abjectly cruel and inhumane and taking this life saving procedure and this advance in medicine which is literally extending people's lives, but in some cases by decades. And the perversion of it is, it's what like Frank Turek, the, the Christian scholar describes as what evil is, is degrading. Taking something beautiful and degrading it. The idea of organ transplants is a life saving, incredible gift. And perverting it to murdering people for profit is outrageous. And so have there been people who've been able to. Who I would think you would go mad being a physician, taking organs, killing somebody, knowingly killing somebody to save somebody else's life. I would think that would drive somebody, if they had a conscience at all, would drive them mad.

Janja Yekelik (26:56)

It's a, it's a perversion of an entire profession. Right. And as you point out, it's not just the transplant surgeons, it's everybody else in the system. There's a lot of people that need to participate in order to achieve an organ transplantation situation. But actually one of the whistleblowers, one of the original whistleblowers was a woman named Annie. I mean, pseudonym Annie.

Rob Schneider (27:16)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (27:16)

And her husband was one of these surgeons and he basically confessed to her after he was having nightmares she was going to divorce him. And he confessed that he had removed corneas from 2000 living people. Right. And I mean, an extreme situation, but in terms of, in terms of these surgeons, there's only been a few that have actually come forth. And most of them aside from. And this wasn't even him, this was his wife, right?

Rob Schneider (27:42)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (27:42)

They've been people who were doing it a little bit earlier than this whole mass growth of the industry happened in the early 2000s. So there was, there's a surgeon that, you know, basically, I think they were experimenting at that time. They had, you know, basically prisoners of some sort. And, and you know, a surgeon was basically forced under military guard to do the procedure. Even they knew that, that this person was still alive. Right. There's Enver Toti is an example of that. He is actually an Uyghur, a surgeon that did this again before this mass, the kind of geometric growth of the entire industry. There's a few examples, but not many remember. Like these people are really putting their lives on the line to, to. To admit to something like this right now.

Rob Schneider (28:28)

There's ever been an actual. I think you talk about it in

Janja Yekelik (28:31)

your book the Survivor.

Rob Schneider (28:33)

The Survivor.

Janja Yekelik (28:33)

The Survivor. I've never thought we'd ever see one like in a million years.

Rob Schneider (28:38)

The idea that somebody who is either a Uyghur or Falun Gong member who's been subjected to this involuntary organ transplant and somehow not get murdered or survived. First of all, that had to been early in this process of this, I guess making a factory type of system that the Chinese would use. It must have been early because they didn't murder this guy. Somehow he survived and escaped to talk about this. So how did he survive first of all? And what is his story?

Janja Yekelik (29:10)

So you know, you, you. We talked about the Holocaust a little bit earlier and so I've inter. Happened to have interviewed quite a number of Holocaust survivors over the years. My father in law was one. And they all have these unusual stories obviously. Right. But. But the unusual in that they almost died but then something happened that made it so they didn't die at that moment and then that happened again and then that happened again and again and eventually they made the war was over and somehow they're alive.

Rob Schneider (29:42)

Yeah, right.

Janja Yekelik (29:43)

This is kind of a similar story with Cheng Peiming who is the survivor. This. I mean it was in the early 2000s, he was in prison, he was being tortured and one day he was in a hospital scenario basically and he woke up with his big gash in his side and a lot of pain inside his body. And he actually didn't know what had happened entirely. Right. So he, you know, and just by a lot of, I would say minor miracles, he lived to tell the tale, eventually was able to escape. And years later it took him years to sort of, you know, decide that he wanted to kind of go public with this.

Rob Schneider (30:28)

So he must have went to a doctor at some point and then some sort of X ray.

Janja Yekelik (30:33)

Well, he was hiding in Thailand for a number of years. Right. This happened in early 2000s. Then he was hiding this. I actually worked on an underground railroad helping bring basically prisoners of conscience out from China through Golden Triangle into Thailand. We were helping get them UN refugee status back in the day. So there was this path and I may perhaps he Used that. I don't. I've actually never asked him specifically whether he used that exact route. But. But he. He was there for a number of years, and then Bob Destro, who in the first Trump administration was the Assistant Secretary of State for democracy, Rights and Labor, he ended up rescuing him to the United States. So once he was in the United States, yeah, he felt, you know, and he's still kind of in hiding mostly, right. These days, but he felt like he could come out and talk about this. And of course, they had. They did detailed scans and they found that part. The of. Part of his liver had been removed. This is what they harvested. Right. They harvested a good chunk of his liver that had regenerated, and they harvested part of his lungs. Strangely, we don't have a good explanation as to why, but that's.

Rob Schneider (31:36)

He's one of the lucky ones.

Janja Yekelik (31:37)

Well, he's the only lucky one, you know, in a way, because, I mean. I mean, his testimony was powerful. If I can look back at the last 20 years, and I see there were these surges at times of reporting on this issue. The biggest surge I ever saw was when he came. Went public. And I saw, especially in the UK press, of all places, there was quite a few very well done. I mean, there were people writing articles there when I was. There hasn't been a lot of good reporting on this issue. Okay. Let me just say. Right. But there were a few pieces in the. I think it was in the Telegraph. I can't remember. I think Telegraph, actually, I was just like, man, this is like the best article I've read. I wish I had written this article. There were a few really powerful pieces that were done that really explain the reality of the situation. So, I mean, I feel he's played a very important role against all odds in. In getting, you know, I don't know, the awareness, but it's still very low because of this Hard to believe. You know, there's actually one of the great documentaries about this issue that was on PBS some years ago, was actually called Hard to Believe.

Rob Schneider (32:38)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (32:39)

Because it is. That all this. Is that all this is real. That. Yeah.

Rob Schneider (32:45)

How is. How is a program like that in 2026 allowed to continue in the modern world? I mean, how can they keep it hidden? And I think, like, at any point, this being exposed is the only chance we have to stop this and save these Uyghurs and Falun Gong members from this continual involuntary organ transplantation and the murder of a massive, massive amount of human beings. Any publicity about this shaming this dastardly and inhumane procedure of mass murder for profit has to shame the Chinese into. That's the only way I could think of is just shaming them into stopping this by exposing it. And your book has a chance to help that process. And the more that we can get more articles, the more that we can get governments to talk about it is the chance to stop this incredible crime against humanity.

Janja Yekelik (33:58)

Can I ask you, like, what. You know, when I, when we first met and, you know, became friends and I, I. Did you know about this already? Like, I, I. Because you took such a, I don't know, deep and personal interest in it that I, I'm just not used to. We, we actually, and just for the record, for the people watching, like we haven't had this conversation before. This is fresh. I don't actually know why this resonated with you so much that you wanted to. Well, I did help with it.

Rob Schneider (34:28)

I knew about it, but I didn't think deeply on it. I didn't think about the. What, what was required to accomplish something on this scale of just. In something so immoral, unethical, a perversion of something beautiful and life saving, an organ transplant, that the opposite would be mass murder. When you think about the machinations of what is required to have a system like that, right. It, you have to really think about that. It does require some, it does require a rejection of your own moral clarity because it just, it just isn't even in the, in the cards of thinking it. And I even wrote a joke about it at the time. And the joke was, was simply the healthiest thing for you to do is in China is smoke tremendously and drink and drink to the point of liver collapse. That's actually healthier for you in China because this way you're less likely to have your organs harvested. And then I would act out like, no, you don't. Let me tell you, you don't want my liver. I can't, I can barely get up. And because my mother's Filipino, I think I can get away with doing an Asian accent. We'll see. But, and I would say that was a joke that doesn't really land. And it's simply because it's still too unbelievable. You have to, the audience has to understand the concept before you can show the absurdity of it. And if they can't get behind the concept, then the absurdity just doesn't ring. It doesn't ring true. And this, this is a subject. So when we started, you know, talking and I realized this absurdity is something beyond comprehension. Then I said, well, I got to know more about this. And so thank you for educating me about this and so many others, because I believe that it is.

Janja Yekelik (36:41)

It's really one of the great evils of today.

Rob Schneider (36:44)

I think it's one of the great evils ever. I mean, even if you take a look at the Nazi, doctors paled in comparison. I mean, they, you know, they did experiments which were ghastly. You know, they would. They would try to see how far somebody could go without oxygen or. Or a. And see whether it was altitude sickness, cold water, hypothermia.

Janja Yekelik (37:12)

That's how we know. You know, that's. That's. I. When I first learned about that, it just. I still actually have trouble dealing with that. Like, we have knowledge that we use from these experiments. Absolutely.

Rob Schneider (37:23)

So. But. And then the, you know, this absurd. Joseph Mengele, how he was called a doctor and had no conscience at all, would do these bizarre, you know, experiments with twins. And some of them did survive. But the system that is required for this mass organ transplant, involuntary organ transplant, it does boggle the mind, and it does become unbelievable. However, I think if enough people know about it and if enough countries make it illegal to go buy an organ transplant, you know, and if. Then it should at least be known throughout the west that this cannot be recommended. You know, this. This is something that is not an option for a patient who needs a liver. You know, so the requiring of somebody's death for your survival, to me, is the most perverse thing I've ever heard in medicine. And there's been a lot of perversions in medicine. There's been, you know, lobotomizing somebody, which happened to, you know.

Janja Yekelik (38:39)

That's right.

Rob Schneider (38:39)

John Kennedy's sister Rosemary. Now, that was a procedure that I think they were using for depression and literally scrambling somebody's brain. That was, you know, now we look back at that, we look at electric shock therapy as an abuse of the medical profession. But this abuse with killing on demand, kill to order, is something that is unique in the history of humanity.

Janja Yekelik (39:09)

You know, something just strikes me. Sometime around 2008, I remember I was telling someone I knew pretty well about this whole thing, and the guy said to me, well, you know, if I was desperate, I might do it. Right? And I was sort of like, yeah, I didn't really know how to deal with that. Right.

Rob Schneider (39:30)

Yeah. I was sort of flippant thing to say. Yeah, but you can understand it.

Janja Yekelik (39:34)

Yeah.

Rob Schneider (39:34)

From a point of view, because he's saying, well, yeah, somebody died for this or whatever. But then you realize that there is a prisoner that has been in prison that has been biometrically checked, that has had their organs measured, that has had their blood type, has their tissue, has their, maybe even their genetic markers. And all that is in a file. And they are essentially in prison in a file waiting to be used and killed to order for this particular person's organ. And I think if we could express that to that person, I would hope if he's not a sociopath, that he would see the abject evil.

Janja Yekelik (40:18)

And this is exactly what I was just thinking, right? This is what I was thinking. I think I wasn't, I don't think I was able to communicate to them what this was. In fact, it's only recently as I've, you know, started doing lots of TV shows and podcasts and things about this book that I felt like I've been able to kind of succinctly explain. I don't think I even did it on this, on this, in this program yet. But, but what it is, right, to just give people that, that full understanding, right, that we're talking about this mass scale system where you have a dehumanized group of people that are ready to be killed to order pre typed for anybody, right?

Rob Schneider (40:56)

It's beyond, it's beyond human imagination. It literally is. If you made a horror movie about it, people go, I don't know. I don't believe that. That's too crazy.

Janja Yekelik (41:05)

Coma. Do you remember Coma?

Rob Schneider (41:06)

Yes, I do remember 1976.

Janja Yekelik (41:08)

It gave me horror. It gave me, gave me nightmares.

Rob Schneider (41:11)

Jean Vie bio. Oh yes, star of that amazing French actress.

Janja Yekelik (41:15)

Amazing.

Rob Schneider (41:16)

Yeah, she's fantastic. But the, I mean it really is the Charlton has this kill to order. The Chinese harvesting of organs is really the Charlton Heston moment in Soylent Green. They're eating people. It is that moment. And I think that I would be interested to see and talk to people who've had that and how do you live with yourself? And I guess for people who,

Janja Yekelik (41:50)

who

Rob Schneider (41:51)

feel that their lives are more valuable than others and maybe they don't have a problem with their conscience, can live with that. I just, I hope I'm not one of them.

Janja Yekelik (42:02)

So as we were preparing for this, I was alerted to the fact by our new producer that there's a film that came out in 2019 with like a all star cast, right? I'm talking about Antonio Banderas, I'm talking about Gary Oldman, Meryl Streep's in it that actually features this issue dedicates a Significant, you know, few minutes to this issue. It's kind of shocking. I thought maybe we could actually watch it.

Rob Schneider (42:32)

What's the movie called?

Janja Yekelik (42:33)

It's called the Laundromat. I think it refers to money laundering actually. But I never. I don't know how I missed it. Yes.

Narrator/Voiceover (42:40)

Let me tell you a story so you can fully understand my concerns. Make sure our guest has a drink for this story. You are perhaps familiar with the so called spiritual practice of Falun Gong. It was labeled as an enemy of the state for advocating superstition and jeopardizing social stability. Police Chief Wang decided to help rid the country of such threats. He became feared throughout the land for the techniques he employed. He would say that the organs were harvested only after the prisoners were dead. But the phalan gum were expendable. And a heart can bring $180,000 on the open market, depending on the blood type. A cornea from a young person is perhaps $3,000. A kidney can bring as much as $60,000 if it is not too old.

Janja Yekelik (44:22)

So, you know, I guess not a lot of people I know watch this film or something.

Rob Schneider (44:27)

Yeah, because. Because it's so grotesque. But you see, but they.

Janja Yekelik (44:32)

The horror, you know, it's somewhat accurate. It's the highest production value depiction of, of this whole thing I've ever seen. That's for sure.

Rob Schneider (44:41)

Well, I think we should maybe do a movie about that survivor who survived and got out. I think it's a, that's a very possibility because I do think that, I do think for sure that culture is, is, you know, they say politics is downstream from culture, but culture's downstream from entertainment.

Janja Yekelik (44:59)

You know, something just occurred to me. I saw that, you know, the U.S. government is. Well, of course we know for a while now that, that freedom of speech is a strong priority of the US government. But I was seeing this government. This government, absolutely. And I saw, you know, something else recent just, you know, as we're filming this morning. I haven't, I haven't even had a chance to read, read the, the article yet, but about freedom.org, which this free speech initiative that Sarah Rogers, the Undersecretary of State, is leading, but to facilitate freedom of information in China. I saw that there's some kind of component there which I'm massively supportive of. I actually think that the absolute most useful, powerful thing that the US government could do would be to facilitate various ways in which the Chinese people could just get access to general free information.

Rob Schneider (46:00)

Hopefully Elon Musk can help with that.

Janja Yekelik (46:02)

Right.

Rob Schneider (46:03)

With his satellite system.

Janja Yekelik (46:04)

Right.

Rob Schneider (46:05)

Well, interesting though, because I think that's the way out of this system. Well, I mean the way to end this.

Janja Yekelik (46:10)

But they would like the Chinese people now, they, they maybe have heard rumors. I think most Chinese people do not understand there's a kill to order industry in their own country because it's know, maybe there's rumors. They know that the system can do terrible things to people. They know that viscerally because everybody in their families has some story, at least in the past of this sort of thing, extreme violations happening to them. But. And their families. But, but I don't know if they really know, but I think if they understood the level of depravity that the Communist Party that their own leaders has stooped to, maybe that would actually make a profound difference. I think it would.

Rob Schneider (46:48)

I would hope so. I think somebody like Elon Musk having a satellite system that could get through so people could, could actually find news outside of what they're just being force fed by the. The same Chinese Communist Party line. I think that could be impactful.

Janja Yekelik (47:06)

We're in an unusual time around this issue where I feel like we all have been. A lot of our society has been through a lot, especially the COVID years.

Rob Schneider (47:16)

Yes, right.

Janja Yekelik (47:17)

I feel like people, we. There's these, you know, Epstein file revelations and just all the types of terrible things that we now know, aside from individual guilt. But I think they expose just a lot of really nasty, a lot of nastiness that has sort of existed in the underbelly of society. I mean, I think it can help. Silver lining might be that people be like, wait a sec, okay, maybe this forced organ harvesting thing isn't science fiction. Actually,

Rob Schneider (47:47)

I think that for me subconsciously what got me very interested in this subject was after experiencing Covid and the lies that the medical agency, the medical establishment, that our governments that are media that was required to keep this lie going and the facilitation of the vaccine that they promised worked. You can't get it, you can't give it. And the idea that you shouldn't do your own research, you shouldn't think for yourselves. So that seeing that organized misinformation and that manipulation that required a government, that required the media and that required the medical establishment to manipulate and censor that was. That made this easier to digest in the sense of if they're capable of doing that, then yes, go down the road even more to an unimaginable, unethical, immoral, perversion, organ transplantation and life saving procedure to the opposite killed order, murdering people for somebody else, for somebody else's kidney, somebody else's heart. So I do think that, that and I do think society in general now would be able to, for those who choose to see, because there's still people trapped in their bubble. There's still people who believe everything the government said about COVID They're mostly of one particular political party. But however, I think most people have woken up to it. So therefore I think it's more now so than 10 years ago, 6 years ago, 15 years ago. I think there would be more of a willingness to see the unseeable. And I hope that they do as well as I hope our government, the Trump administration, somebody high up in the Trump administration, maybe the president himself, when he meets with the Chinese leader, would say this must stop, this inhumanity, this crime against humanity, this murder, kill to order, must stop. It is a degradation of the great heritage of the Chinese people. And I would hope that happens.

Janja Yekelik (50:20)

It's very interesting because I think, know, I don't know how much Xi Jinping cares about this or not, but you know, he didn't start this. I'm pretty sure of that based on what I know from the past. But he could be the one to end it. And that's, you know, you might have a lot of, he has a lot of terrible legacies associated with them, but he could have one good one. Possibly.

Rob Schneider (50:43)

Possibly. Yeah, well, I, I think if you could, I don't know how that could be framed to somehow remove himself from the, the guilt of what's been happening and just stop it and blame the previous regime and whatever it takes.

Janja Yekelik (50:59)

The challenge is. Right. And this is, there's, it's an, it's an industrial scale operation and essentially the medical profession has been co opted in some significant portion to this. And so, you know, one of the things that I kind of advocate, have been advocating for, I wrote a, an op ed in the Baltimore sun about it some months ago, is just what we can do at the very least is remove or end American complicity, American cooperation with the system. Because we do, you know, wittingly or unwittingly, you know, we train some of the transplant surgeons, we have funding partnerships, we have research partnerships.

Rob Schneider (51:40)

So the surgeons that, the surgeons.

Janja Yekelik (51:42)

Not all of them. Yeah, but some we absolutely train because essentially every transplant surgeon in China likely is involved in this. Right.

Rob Schneider (51:52)

So, and that technology was developed first

Janja Yekelik (51:54)

where, like the technology to organ transplantation.

Rob Schneider (51:58)

How long has organ transplantation been around?

Janja Yekelik (52:00)

That's a great question. How long has transplantation been around. I mean, it's really only since the 50s, it's really only since the 50s that we've been able to do transplants.

Rob Schneider (52:11)

Yes, but the successful transplants where they figured out the anti rejection drugs, you know, taking it, even if it's a close match for whether it's a liver or a kidney or a heart transplant, it still has got to be pretty close. And the rejection drugs is what keep that the body from rejecting itself. So I would hope when the president, when the President of the United States meets the leader of China, I would hope somebody in that, in the chain of communication does bring this issue up. Do you think that's likely to happen?

Janja Yekelik (52:54)

You know, I was just talking with John Solomon about this on his show last night as we're filming, this was last night. And he kind of, he asked me this exact question and I don't know, John said something interesting because my suggestion was, you know, tell she, do you really want to have this on your record? Right, right.

Rob Schneider (53:13)

And so something that the President could

Janja Yekelik (53:15)

say appear to appeal to his, you know, appeal to his, you know, desire to be a great leader for the legacy, legacy to his posterity, essentially. That's. And, and I think there might be something to that.

Rob Schneider (53:29)

There might be an avenue there because

Janja Yekelik (53:31)

it's not, you know, there's, there are a lot of things I would like to see different about communist China and how it imagines minorities.

Rob Schneider (53:38)

Yeah, but imagine if the President of the United States, Donald Trump, said, this is bad, this is terrible. You should not be killing people and taking their organs. It's terrible. Something like that, I mean, could have worldwide repercussions from that. I mean, I think, I think it

Janja Yekelik (53:57)

could only have a positive effect, actually. Yeah.

Rob Schneider (53:59)

Anytime you expose this, I mean, we really have to expose this, you know. You know, when you think about, when I think about the Holocaust and think about how it was unbelievable to people and thinking about, in my mind, it's crossed my mind a thousand times, why didn't they just bomb those empty trains? Why didn't they bomb the tracks? Why didn't they. It's like, it was amazing. Like when Anne Frank left Holland, when she left Amsterdam, she left after the American forces and the Allied forces, everybody landed in, in Normandy. This is, this is, she didn't leave till August. They landed June 6th. They just, they didn't go north, you know, they didn't go to Holland. And so there was still people still trained, still working. And the Allies at any time could have blown up those tracks, could have ended that, and they didn't, you know, so how much longer can this go on before somebody blows up these tracks? Somebody has to do it. I think the United States is. If. If there was a constant drumbeat about this. I think the chi. I think the Chinese are vulnerable to information, obviously, and they are susceptible to public perception, and I think that's a given. So I think the more that there could be light brought into this particular issue, the more chance, Chances are that the Chinese will stop this horrible crime against the Uyghurs and the Falun Gong. And I hope it's soon. And I would hope that the good people in China. And while I realize that the Chinese government is the enemy of the American people and our way of life, the communist system itself, but specifically the Chinese government, the people in China are not. And these are by far good people.

Janja Yekelik (55:55)

And against. And again, against all odds, by the way. That's what I. That's been. That's my experience.

Rob Schneider (56:00)

Right.

Janja Yekelik (56:00)

That's my absolute experience. There's tens of millions of people in China that are, you know, actually actively changing it for the better as we speak.

Rob Schneider (56:11)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (56:11)

Like, they're educating the public about the Chinese Communist Party and this organ harvesting and so forth. Right. I'm talking about the Falun Gong practitioners. That is. That's what they do. They go out into society and talk about what Falun Gong really is, try to, you know, debunk this horrible dehumanizing propaganda that's been pushed out, continues to be pushed out against them at the same time, educating. Actually, the problem is the Chinese Communist Party.

Rob Schneider (56:39)

Yeah.

Janja Yekelik (56:40)

Not them or not other minorities or not any of these groups which are labeled as the black groups that the. That the society is supposed to struggle against. I mean, it's. It's actually probably. It's one of the, if not the largest, one of the absolute largest civil disobedience movement, peaceful ones in the world right now. So anyways, there's. There's an amazing. In China proper, this is the amazing kind of part of the story which I don't get to tell often enough. I talk about it a little bit as you. As, you know, towards the end of the book. But. But anyway, there's. There's. In every situation, there's always, always. And there's always these good people.

Rob Schneider (57:16)

And it seems like in. In any totalitarian system, there. There are good people that are being held prisoner literally to a system that just wants complete, utter control and that wants to take away the spirit of the people. That's what's so Surprising, because if you look at the Falun Gong and what they are, what their whole belief system is, is beautiful. They believe in. Walk me through it.

Janja Yekelik (57:42)

It's truthfulness.

Rob Schneider (57:44)

Truthfulness, compassion.

Janja Yekelik (57:45)

Compassion and forbearance. Forbearance term is. It's a little bit more complicated. It's. It has to do with tolerance to pain, but also the idea that pain is a positive thing. Right. Stoicism fits in well.

Rob Schneider (58:00)

Suffering for the right reason, not unnecessary

Janja Yekelik (58:03)

suffering well, but just actually suffering of any sort. This is the thing. Right. When we experience pain, we live in a society right now. Right. At any. Almost at any cost. Right. And of course, you create a lot of suffering trying to avoid suffering. But the idea, I mean, at least in my understanding in Falun Gong, is that actually all suffering needed or unneeded is actually something that's positive to your own development. That's how I understand it.

Rob Schneider (58:29)

Yes. Well, you have to suffer. You suffer for your children. You get up, you don't sleep. When you have a baby, you get up and you just, like literally five years, you're not going to sleep. And then you got to get up and you got to go to work at. And prepare and you got to pick the kids up and you have to make enough money and you have to do. You have to make sure that the. The school and that they get there and that they have food and they have lunch. All these particular things is suffering. But it's a beautiful thing because from suffering you get the most real reward. And if you think about the Chinese culture, whether it's Confucius, whether it's the Dao, I mean, the greatest thinkers in humanity have come out of that amazing area of the world. And so the Chinese have a lot to offer us. And I think what's being offered right now is a grotesque aberration of what that amazing culture has brought to the world. And I would hope that we can return to that incredible, spiritual, beautiful country with beautiful people, the Chinese people, as an amazing nation with beautiful people, with a rich, incredible culture that has given so much to the world, not just the east, but to the west, all the forms of medicine, whether it was manipulated later or not into a negative way from. It was. If you go from acupuncture, if you go from, you know, whether it was leeches and bleeding and they had it and it was manipulated and done wrong by the time it got to George Washington. But these ideas that came out of. From China and the healing and the great healers that have come out of it have. Have changed the world for the better. And I hope, and it is my prayer that that the Chinese can get back to that gift to continue giving to the world.

Janja Yekelik (60:11)

Thank you for being such a good friend and, you know, basically supporting me in this, in this whole endeavor.

Rob Schneider (60:18)

You've done the work, and the least I could do is support you. And I will say that we're going to have a good time. And at the Kennedy Center, March 16, we're going to get together, we're going to have another discussion about this and a deeper discussion to dive into this and to see perhaps by then we'll have some more information from the Trump administration, some more information and see about how to get the story out there and how to shine a light on this so that we can make to make this grotesque aberration of a beautiful the gift of life organ harbor, the organ transplantation and this perversion of it, involuntary organ transplanting, and make that a thing of the past so people can look back at this as they look back at the Holocaust and the and just said, how did humanity ever allow that? That's my wish.

Janja Yekelik (61:10)

Amen.

Rob Schneider (61:13)

See you March 16th.

Janja Yekelik (61:14)

That's right.

Rob Schneider (61:15)

You can do it. We'll see you there.

Janja Yekelik (61:18)

So let me tell it to you straight up. This book, 20 Years in the making, I feel like this moment is where all the roads have been leading to. I really want your help to make this book a bestseller. Blow it out of the water, basically. Get it on all the lists, the New York Times list, the Amazon list. I mean, if we can do that, millions more people will understand that this crime, this crime against humanity is real and we can end it. We can actually at least end America's complicity in it and the West's complicity in it, but we can actually save some lives this way. So please join me killtoorder.com, get the book, spread the word. And together, I really think we can make a difference. Killtoorder.com get your copy today. And thank you.