The CCP’s Greatest Insecurity—and America’s Greatest Weapon | Sam Brownback

Summary

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Podcast Summary

American Thought Leaders – The CCP’s Greatest Insecurity—and America’s Greatest Weapon | Sam Brownback

Host: Jan Jekielek (B)
Guest: Sam Brownback (A), former Ambassador at Large, governor, senator, and author of China’s War on Faith
Air Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jan Jekielek sits down with Sam Brownback to discuss his new book, China’s War on Faith, and the ongoing and systemic persecution of religious minorities under the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Brownback argues that the CCP’s repression of faith communities reveals a core vulnerability in the regime that can be, and should be, leveraged by the United States and the West as a strategic asset in the ongoing struggle for global influence and human rights. The episode covers the concept of genocide in China, discusses China's assimilation policies, juxtaposes American and Chinese approaches to diversity and freedom, and highlights the need for the U.S. to move from a defensive to a principled, offensive posture regarding human rights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing the Nature of the CCP (00:00–01:22)

• Evil Regime: Brownback states unequivocally that the CCP is an "evil regime" and highlights its historic record of killing more of its own people than any other regime.

  “They’ve killed more of their own people than any other regime in the history of mankind.” (A, 00:00)

• U.S. Mistakes: The U.S., he says, “treat[s] them like a normal country,” which is a grave error given the CCP’s actions and intentions.

2. Diplomacy & Human Rights Realities (01:22–04:34)

• Trump’s Visit to China: Brownback is skeptical about human rights being meaningfully addressed during President Trump’s upcoming meeting with Xi Jinping, expecting only minor mentions of individual cases but little substantive progress.

  "I'm just not expecting too much because the Chinese Communist Party has set their face." (A, 01:42)

• Duplicitous Dialogue: He underscores the duplicity of the CCP, especially about issues like Taiwan and Tibet, noting their refusal to allow discussion on Tibet, East Turkestan, or the treatment of Uyghurs and other faiths.

3. The Reality of Genocide in China (05:15–07:18)

• Three Genocides: Brownback identifies three genocides in China, using the term in its strict legal sense:
  • Uyghurs: The regime targets Islam specifically; “It’s the only country in the world I’ve been able to find, you cannot name a child Mohammed.” (A, 05:30)
  • Tibetans: Ongoing cultural genocide, including the CCP’s audacious intent to designate the next Dalai Lama.
  • Falun Gong: Systematic eradication, forced organ harvesting, and imprisonment.
• Hollywood’s Role: He lambasts Hollywood’s refusal to produce content critical of the CCP post-1997, citing economic interests as the culprit.

4. Assimilation vs. Coercion: Contrasts between U.S. and China (10:10–13:48)

• China’s Assimilation Policy: Brownback draws parallels between CCP assimilation of minorities and past U.S. policies toward Native Americans, but notes that America ultimately, though imperfectly, assimilates by “willing assimilation,” not force.
• Propaganda: The CCP contrasts Chinese forced assimilation with America’s multicultural problems in its propaganda, deflecting from its own coercive practices.

  "They're trying to homogenize everybody into a communist Han Chinese. It’s not going to work." (A, 12:28)

5. Information Control & The Power of Truth (14:43–17:31)

• Digital Control: Brownback discusses AI and information censorship in China, noting the extensive pre-programming required to prevent “wrong answers” like equating the Chinese dream to moving to America.
• The Hunger for Truth: Jekielek and Brownback both highlight how people in China fight to access uncensored news, with Epoch Times providing a crucial channel despite the regime’s firewall.

6. The CCP’s Strategy as a Weapon Against It (18:45–20:50)

• Turning the Tables: Brownback insists the U.S. should move from pleading with China over human rights to using the CCP’s abuses as offensive diplomatic leverage, as Reagan did with the USSR.

  “We ought to go in from a position of strength… This should disqualify them from global leadership.” (A, 18:45; 19:35)

• Human Rights as Leverage: He encourages using federal and state-level legislation (e.g., organ harvesting bans) to increase strategic leverage over the CCP.

7. America’s Strength Is Its Principles (20:50–27:57)

• Values Battle: The real contest is between the CCP’s authoritarian, atheistic governance and the West’s Judeo-Christian ethic of individual dignity and freedom.
• Public Ahead of Elites: Brownback notes an “organic” awakening among the American public who increasingly see through the CCP's system, and calls on elites to catch up, even at an economic cost.

8. Profound Personal Stories from “China’s War on Faith” (28:31–38:19)

• Stories of Resilience: Brownback describes the durability and hope found in the persecuted: Christians, Muslims (e.g., Mergol Turson), Buddhists, and Falun Gong practitioners.
• Testimony of Mergol Turson: Her harrowing story—abduction, torture, loss of a child, and survival—is emblematic of CCP brutality and the resilience of faith.

  “She was a nursing mother at the time. They killed one of her children. They beat her, they put her in prison. ...They said, okay, we’re going to kill you. …But you can pick the way.” (A, 32:43)

• Light Amid Darkness: Despite the darkness, Brownback finds hope in the courage and persistence of those persecuted for their beliefs.

9. The United Front and Civil Society Subversion (39:51–41:06)

• United Front Work Department: Brownback and Jekielek discuss the CCP’s unique investment in a bureaucracy whose purpose is to destroy independent civil society within China and abroad.

  “Imagine having a department…that exclusive purpose is to destroy all civil society, to subvert…” (B, 39:51)

10. Policy Recommendations: From Defensive to Offensive (42:54–45:08)

• Strategic Guidance:
  • Elevate faith persecution victims in public White House forums.
  • Pressure the Vatican and international religious leaders to call for release of prisoners and end to CCP genocides.
  • Send high-level officials to meet the Dalai Lama, elevating the Tibet issue.
  • Call the regime out as evil, “do a Ronald Reagan,” and encourage moral leadership from Western institutions.

  “I think you ought to do a Ronald Reagan and say this is an evil regime, this is an evil empire…” (A, 44:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Irreconcilable Divide:

  “These two systems are diametrically opposed to each other. These systems do not coexist at this level in the world.” (A, 26:43)

• On Forced Organ Harvesting:

  “What makes you think you’re that good? That you should be killing other people for their body parts? …It's inconceivable to me really that people could think of themselves as that much better than somebody else. That I will kill you for your organs. …Unbelievable.” (A, 36:43)

• On Hope and Resistance:

  “These are people seeking something above what is here on earth and willing to fight and willing to die for it.” (A, 38:19)

• On Information Control:

  “…They’ve got like 900 questions that any AI system must first answer and answer properly before they’ll let its use.” (A, 15:20)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:22 – Framing the CCP as an “evil regime”
• 05:30–07:03 – Detailing the three ongoing genocides in China
• 10:30–13:48 – Discussion on assimilation, U.S. vs. CCP
• 14:43–17:31 – Digital authoritarianism, censorship, great firewall
• 18:45–20:50 – Leveraging CCP abuses as U.S. diplomatic weapon
• 28:31–32:43 – Personal stories of persecution; Mergol Turson’s case
• 39:51–41:06 – The United Front and the CCP’s war on civil society
• 42:54–45:08 – Policy recommendations: moving to offense, tying U.S. foreign policy to human rights

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Tone and Language

The episode is direct, urgent, and unsparing in its language, both from Brownback’s unvarnished condemnation of the CCP (“evil regime,” “modern Auschwitz”) and the host’s willingness to press for specifics. Brownback balances righteous anger with a clear sense of hope and faith in principled resistance and the personal stories of survivors and activists.

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Conclusion

Sam Brownback’s key message: The CCP’s repression of faith is both its greatest insecurity and the West’s most powerful—and underutilized—weapon. The U.S. must abandon a defensive, “pleading” posture and reclaim the moral high ground, making human rights a central pillar of its strategy toward China, and standing visibly and actively with the persecuted. Their stories offer both evidence of CCP brutality and reasons for hope—if America is willing to act.

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Transcript

[A]

We just got to recognize this is an evil regime. They've killed more of their own people than any other regime in the history of mankind. And we've been treating them like a normal country.

[B]

Ahead of President Trump's visit to China, I'm sitting down with Sam Brownback, former ambassador, governor and senator and author of the new book China's War on Faith. Human rights when it comes to the Chinese regime are basically the no go zone publicly, aren't they?

[A]

This is a strategy of the Chinese Communist Party and it's one that we should turn around and use as an offensive tool against them.

[B]

After decades in public service, Brownback says he's now confronting the biggest beast of his career.

[A]

They've built a satellite set of countries and they're exporting this digital authoritarianism technology to at least 80 different countries that we've tracked. They are at war with us whether we realize we're at war with them or not.

[B]

This is American Thought Leaders and I'm Jania Kellogg. Sam Brownback, Such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

[A]

Thanks, John. It's great to be back with you. And I always enjoy our conversations and how we look at the world and some of the huge dangers in the world today. And I just, I appreciate your willing to surface them and, and to shine a light on it for people.

[B]

Well, huge congratulations on today's launch of China's War on Faith. Your new book. Before we go talking about it, let's talk about the visit of President Trump to China. Visit meeting with Xi Jinping. Do you expect that human rights issues might be raised there?

[A]

I have pretty low expectations on this first meeting. I think President Trump is going to try to really be as bromance oriented as possible. Probably just trying to, okay, let's try to be nice to each other. Let's try to settle things down in the world. I hope he raises some of these issues. He said he's going to, you know, raise Pastor Ezra Jin. I wouldn't doubt he'll raise some of the individual isolated cases, but I'm just not expecting too much because the Chinese Communist Party has set their, set their face. They're arresting hundreds of Christian pastors now. They beat on all these other people of faith. They've done wolf diplomacy around the world. Their long term strategy has been pretty obvious for some time and to abruptly move away from that at this point in time seems, seems unlikely to me.

[B]

And just something that's really interesting, which I hadn't thought about recently, the NTD White House correspondent, Mary Otsu got a question into Secretary Rubio about whether human rights were raised. I'm going to mention that in a moment. But basically, human rights when it comes to the Chinese regime are basically the no go zone publicly, aren't they?

[A]

They really are, yeah. I mean, they want to raise Taiwan all the time, but you're kind of going, you know, okay, well, let's raise Taiwan. We want to talk about Tibet and East Turkestan then, you know, I mean, Taiwan, you're saying you own that? Well, you don't own these other guys then. Well, no, no, you can't. You can't raise those issues. You can't talk about any of those issues, and you can't talk about Tibetan Buddhism and you can't talk about how we're treating the Uyghurs. So, yeah, it's all duplicity on their part. And I think we just got to recognize, look, this is a, this is an evil regime. They've killed more of their own people than any other regime in the history of mankind. And we've been treating them like a normal country. And I think we're not ready for the full square off right now. But these two systems are inevitably headed for that.

[B]

Let me read to you what Mari asked and how Secretary Rubio responded in that recent press briefing at the White House. You've long been a leading voice on human rights in China, and so including religious persecution and forced organ harvesting. So President Trump prepares to meet Xi Jinping next week. Do you expect human rights concerns be on the table?

[C]

Well, we always raise those issues, and they remain true. And I think we've proven in some cases it's most effective to raise them in the appropriate setting. But we always raise those issues. They're important to us among, with others, of course. But those issues remain prominent in our view and in our conversation about these things, and it will continue to raise them in the appropriate forums.

[B]

What do you take from that?

[A]

I take there's not going to be much said about it from that. You know, Marco Rubio can't change his spots. He's a hot blooded American with Cuban descent. He does not like communism. He has felt, his family has felt directly the impact of communism on them. He has no love for that system whatsoever, and he doesn't have any love for it in China either. But I take from that sort of statement, it's like, you know, I mean, I'm sure there'll be some mention of it somewhere, and so I'm sure there'll be some discussion of it. But I just I wouldn't have high expectations that there'll be much put on it.

[B]

You argue in the book that there are three genocides happening in China, which is pretty significant thing to say. I happen to agree with you exactly on this, actually. But why don't you lay out the argument for me?

[A]

Three are that the Uyghur genocide, and it's primarily Muslim Uyghurs, they're kind of fine with the Uyghur culture, but they're not with Islam. It's the only country in the world I've been able to find. You cannot name a child Mohammed, but that's one that's been publicly declared. But there's a genocide that's been going on in Tibet, Tibetan Buddhists. Initially, they slaughtered so many of the Tibetan Buddhists and the leaders. And now it's a cultural genocide, just really trying to rid the place of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism, they want to name the next Dalai Lama. The Chinese Communist Party, an officially atheistic group, wants to name the next official leader of Tibetan Buddhism, a faith which is just galling and ironic at the same time. And then Falun Gong, they have decimated this group that got up by Chinese numbers to 90 million at one point in time, probably down 20 million. Who knows really what the actual number. And on the most diabolical, barbaric ways of locking people up, throwing them in jail, forced organ harvesting, as you've written about. I mean, it's things. If somebody wrote about this and said it happened in the 15th century, you could kind of go, well, I could see that. But today, and it's happening. And that's why I say these are three genocides, because the intent is there to literally wipe out this group, this culture.

[B]

Just to talk about that for a moment, right, you're using the word genocide very specifically, according to its sort of original intent. This word is used flippantly these days. I mean, usually to describe significant amounts of death. But what you're talking about is something different.

[A]

Well, I'm talking about the legal definition of it, where there is an intent to specifically wipe out or destroy a group of people. That's the official kind of measure. You're supposed to look at genocide. And you can see that in these three cases, there is a specific intent to destroy this group of people. And that's what's taking place. And that's why it fits the definition of having a third genocide. And it just bothers me no end that then we still kind of treat them as a normal country. I went to a movie last week Hail Mary. And I'm not highly recommending the movie, but the lead pilot of the rocket, it's a sci fi movie, has a Chinese Communist flag on his sleeve and he's the lead pilot for this rocket and it's kind of. He's the good guy. And I'm going, what are you, what are you doing here? What, what is this flag doing in this movie? Saving the Earth. And why is Hollywood putting this out? And it just. I make the point in the book. Hollywood hadn't put out a film that's negative towards the Chinese Commun party or the CCP since 1997. Seven years in Tibet, in Kandun. That's the last time because they're so tied economically and the marketing of the films. And I'm saying it's time to stop this, guys. Come on.

[B]

Well, it's very, it's interesting. I recently watched the Martian and in that film it's another. I think that's actually. The book is by the same author that wrote Hail Mary, I think so, if I recall correctly. But there's also, there's a kind of a subpl where they have to get help from the Chinese, some sort of booster. And the Chinese are shown to be very benevolently wanting to help the Americans, which I wish were true. And certainly there's Chinese people in China that would do that. But the regime absolutely would not.

[A]

No, they wouldn't. The regime wouldn't do that. And I am for the Chinese people. I have an adopted Chinese daughter who I love dearly. I love the Chinese people. I love the Chinese culture. I do not like the Chinese Communist Party nor what they've done to the Chinese people or the country itself. And that's really a critical point to make that this is the problem is the Chinese Communist Party. And for all President Xi's talk about sinicization of it, which I find really amazing in many respects, because the real interlocutor and the real stranger in China is Communism. That's a European invention, Industrial age European invention that they've put in on the Chinese people. That's the one that needs to be sinicized and sinicized out of the place.

[B]

You know, you're just reminding me. This is something I haven't really covered yet, but. And I'm just going to go astray a little bit of religion, which is. Or faith, which is the main focus of our talk today. But there are these new rules in China around assimilation of ethnic minorities. And I'm wondering if you want to comment on that.

[A]

Yeah. What A horrible idea.

[B]

I mean, like, what exactly are they doing? I mean, this is official. They're implementing some kind of official policy on this. It's just. It's almost. I mean, it wasn't so horrible. It would be comical.

[A]

Well, and if it wasn't something that places in the world had already done and failed and hurt people doing. You can look at our treatment of the American Indians, the Native Americans in this country, and where we said, okay, we're going to really try to make you like European settlers. You're going to try to make. We're going to try to make you like us. And it hurt people. It killed them. We tried to make their culture our culture. It was a horrible, failed, deadly thing that we did 100 years ago. And we, and I carried the apology bill for it, and there's still remnants of it, and China is trying to do that today. And why are you doing it? Why not let these cultures live and thrive? Why not let people practice the faith the way they want to practice it? And it's because the Chinese Communist Party must, they believe, maintain strict, tight control over everybody and every thought. And that's the way they're going to press it in that country. And that's what they're exporting to their satellite countries around the world.

[B]

You know, one thing I wanted to mention is, see the way that the Chinese region is very, very effective at using its propaganda.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So they would say, for example, hey, look at the effects of multicultural, you know, multicultural policy in America. Look at, look at the, you know, the discord and the problems that's created here. Right. That's what they'd say.

[A]

Well, that's what they would say. And this is.

[B]

Which it has, in fact. Right, but this is what I'm trying to get at is what they're doing is not the same thing. Right?

[A]

No. And I would argue that this country has assimilated more people of different cultures from around the world than any country in history of mankind. And by and large, successfully. Not without our problems and not without our miscues and missteps at different times. That's happened when we first brought Chinese into this country and the mistreatment of Chinese, or you could say that about the Irish or the Italians, or you could kind of almost say that about any group. But over time, the salad bowl, the mixing pot kind of worked, and it brought people together, and people came together around a common set of thoughts and ideas, not around a land mass. And it's about freedom. We believe in freedom. We believe in freedom. For everybody. We believe in the human dignity of each and every individual to be able to decide that they're doing nothing of that nature. They're trying to homogenize everybody into a communist Han Chinese. It's not going to work. It's not going to be helpful for their society. It's punitive, it's damaging, it is deadly, and it really should be stopped and also just called out for what it is. This is just you guys trying to bring everybody in under the Chinese Han umbrella and make them all atheist communist.

[B]

Well, just, you know, I know so many people that, you know, kind of risked a lot basically to come here, to be able to basically make something of themselves, you know, live that American dream. This was something, you know, the assimilation. Right. It was not a forced assimilation. It was a highly willing assimilation as long as, you know, Americans remained proud. And of course it was encouraged. Right. Because it was a great. It's a great system. And so this is the. Your juxtaposition here is very apt because, you know, over there, this is a strictly coercive idea in the first place, that policy. And so again, I'm always. I marvel at the way the communists are so good at fostering this propaganda and kind of twisting whatever is happening to kind of suit their own needs.

[A]

Yeah. And. But we've got to confront it, and we should confront it. It's been interesting me to watch the AI move because, you know, you put a question in on AI and it. It answers it, but in their closed system that they have because they control all the media and they've got the great Chinese firewall on the Internet and you can't get in inside of that, but the AI searches everything. So you plug in, what's the Chinese dream? And the answer came back to move to America. Really? Yeah.

[B]

Like on the American ones or on the Chinese?

[A]

Well, the Chinese ones.

[B]

On the Chinese ones, yeah.

[A]

And so they go, okay, we gotta get this answer cleaned up. And so whenever you control all the means of information, you can't let the cat slip out of the bag anywhere. And so They've got like 900 questions that any AI system must first answer and answer properly before they'll let its use. This is the article I was reading, and I haven't verified the article, but I was laughing at it when I was reading because that's what would actually happen if you've got an open system and you can search anywhere. Well, okay, we can't have an open system then, can we? We're going to have to have a Controlled, tight AI system that can't just search all the various open databases and it must be programmed to come up with these correct answers. You know, you just keep having to work at controlling the message that people can get. And in this society, in this world, I think really ultimately it just doesn't work. And it's just so harmful to people that they can't get the truth.

[B]

Well, and I deeply believe that the truth is something that, you know, it kind of is contagious. There's always, when there's a dearth of good information, there's always an interest in finding out what the reality is. And I mean a testament to that is actually at the founding of the Epoch Times, right? The, you know, Chinese Americans at Georgia Tech students spin up this student website to talk about the reality. When the Chinese regime began this Falun Gong persecution, this little website, thankfully they had great tech people there. It just kind of exploded as one of the few venues where you could actually know what was really going on. And today, as another testament to that, we use some of the best technologies to break through that great firewall that you mentioned. And I mean, unfortunately, because it costs money just to kind of run those things. They're always maxed out. But there's millions of people read Epoch Times Chinese from China. But they have to break through this tightly controlled system which requires resources. But we can't open up enough of those holes for people to read, basically.

[A]

Absolutely. And I'm so proud of those guys doing that. I used to work with them. I was in the Senate on breaking through the great Chinese firewall and got some appropriations for them to be able to help with that mission. Because the truth was just so powerful and people wanted it and they're hungry for it. And your point is that, that they will, they will seek it out and they will pursue that. And Epoch Times, I think you told me, was something like the fourth largest subscription newsp in the country. Now it is from a 20 years old, 20 year start against these venerable institutions, well over 100 years old. I mean, that's amazing. But it also, I think speaks to the moment. I mean, you're really out there putting forward clear information, it's truthful and people are going, that's what I'm looking for and that's what I'll pay for.

[B]

So speaking of truthful information, we're both going to be testifying at a Congressional executive Commission on China hearing this coming Thursday. It's titled A Market Built on Stopping Illegal Organ Trafficking in China and Beyond. So what do you think you're going to be talking about.

[A]

I'm going to be talking about the broader picture of this. I know you're speaking there, Ethan Gutman is speaking there, who's been great on writing about these topics, but I'm going to talk about that. This is a strategy of the Chinese Communist Party, and it's one that we should turn around and use as an offensive tool against them. And by that I mean, most of the time we're kind of pleading with the Chinese Communist Party, don't do this, Stop the organization. We're trying to shame them into something, or pleading with them not to do it. And from a kind of a position of weakness. And we ought to go in from a position of strength on this, saying this is illegitimate for a regime to contend for global leadership that does this to its own people. This should disqualify them from global leadership, and we should go on the offense on things like this instead of. Instead of really kind of shying away from it. And Ronald Reagan did this towards the Soviet Union. He would travel the country before he was ever president, talking about the godless commies and what they were doing to the Jewish refuseniks. And then he also made this point, which I think is the point we're at right now. They are at war with us, whether we realize we're at war with them or not, he said of the Soviet Union at the time. And it's the truth for us with the Chinese Communist Party. They are at war with us, whether we realize we're at war with them or not. And we should mount up. And we're always best when we stand on principles and we stand on our basic principles. And one of them is religious freedom, that everybody's entitled to do with their own soul what they see fit. We should take that message directly to the Chinese Communist Party and say, you signed the original declaration of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. This is a part of it. Stand by it, do it, or you forfeit your leadership in the world.

[B]

You know, it's interesting that you say that because Nina Shia, who you have a chapter in your book about as the advocate, she recently has a piece in the New York Post arguing exactly that. Let's take a page out of Reagan and take the principled position. Speak. Make sure you speak to the Chinese people, not just to the Chinese regime when you're there, Mr. President.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think ultimately. And when I say ultimately, within the next couple of years, you will see that happen. I don't know that you'll see it happen on this meeting. But I think you're going to see that happening because that's, you've just got these two giant systems against each other. And really the fight is between the CCP and Western civilization. Western civilization built on this Judeo Christian ethic of every person is created in the image of God and is entitled to human dignity and its own choices. And the ccp, which is there's nothing higher than us, we are it. We are the ultimate authority over man. Which I say is almost a laughable concept. I mean as flawed and failed and as deadly as this system has been to its own people, it's the ultimate authority over mankind. But that's really the fight we're into. And my deep concern about this is that the digital surveillance systems and the digital police state that they can create and have created and spread to other dictators around the world, they've got tools available to them that no dictator has had available in the past. And they are very deft in good at this. This is the toughest adversary we've ever been up against.

[B]

You know, something just struck me which I frankly hadn't thought of until I just heard you speaking. But you know, of course I've been talking about the value of some of these federal bills, like for example the Stop Forced Organ Harvesting act and the Falun Gong Protection act, now called the Falun Gongan Victims of Forced Organ Harvesting Protection act on the Senate side at the federal level, the value of these, that actually kind of curbing this a bit, the whole forced organ harvesting and the value of these state level legislations, you know, not that basically insurance and Medicare, Medicaid can't pay for transplants in China. This is all good, but actually in a way, right? This is actually if the Congress decides to pass more states decide to pass these laws, that's actually giving the President leverage.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think the President and the administration is looking for more leverage against the ccp. I just hadn't thought of it that way because that's. That'sbecause. I think that's, that's the way, I think that's a good way to think about. They've built a bunch of leverage around the, you know, against America. Critical minerals, rare earths, the medical precursors, I mean some really serious things. And that's not it, you know, sort of deeply intertwined into the global economy. If we go down, you're going to suffer too all of that, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. But this is another bit of leverage for the US side, potentially yeah.

[A]

If you're getting me, if I'm a betting man and you're giving me their set of cards or my set of the American set of cards, I'll take our set of cards and play in this. But we've got to realize we're in this real fight and we've got to fight it on principles, and we've got to go at them on these very basic principles. And I think what you're seeing kind of bubble up now organically in the country and in the Congress is that the nation is ahead of our elites on this. The people have already smelled this one out and said, these are bad guys. What they have done and what we know that they have done. And there's a lot of things we don't know. This is an evil system. It produces evil results. And they're already. The people are already there. It's now the elite's kind of figuring, okay, wait a minute, we made a lot of money off of China and we got a lot of cheap products in here. We've got to start now figuring out how you break these systems apart and make people in the world. Pick. I'm either going with the China system of authoritarianism, or I'm going with the American system of Western style democracy. As many flaws as we may have, you got to make people start choosing,

[B]

you know, and as a testament to that, when I first started reporting on this forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in China, I remember very distinctly how difficult it was to even talk to people about it. I mean, literally, sometimes people would just kind of leave the conversation mentally in the middle of the conversation. Right. It was kind of frustrating in a way, but then I kind of sympathized as well after I thought about it, because I'm a bit. I've gotten a bit desensitized to the whole thing. Right. Having kind of reported on it a lot. But. But it's really part of the reason I think that I wanted to write Kill to Order is because I saw that there had been this shift that you're talking about. People suddenly are willing to accept there's. I went on a podcast, notably Mike Rowe became incredibly popular on this issue. I just didn't expect it. Okay. Let's say. And then the book being successful. I think you're exactly right. I think we're in this moment where people are kind of ready finally to accept that this Chinese regime is capable of some conventionally unfathomable things.

[A]

No, I think we are at that moment, but I've been around a number of different, like, human rights movements. Now, this is the biggest beast I've ever gone after. The Red Dragon of China is the biggest one. But there's just this innate sense in a lot of the American people that they can sense the difference between good and evil. And they know there is good and they know there is evil in the world. And we are in a position as a country, as a powerful country to resist evil that a lot of places can't. And we must do that, and we must drag this along. And I go even further to say, you know, these two systems are diametrically opposed to each other. These systems do not coexist at this level in the world. Now, you could have a small communist country in North Korea, Cuba, which I hope doesn't last a whole lot longer. I hope none of them do. But you're talking about. This is the second largest economy in the world that the CCP has, and they've built a satellite set of countries and they're exporting this digital authoritarianism technology to at least 80 different countries that we've tracked. Okay, we have got to confront this in this type of integrated world that we're in today.

[B]

The book is incredible. China's War on Faith. I found it to be just kind of deeply riveting as I'm looking at these. Some of them are testimonials of people who have overcome unbelievable adversity. Some of it is people who have decided to be champions. Right. And just tell me a little bit about. Of course, I've endorsed the book for the record. I want to make sure people know that. Right. Because, you know, I'm not a disinterested party. What are people going to find? What is it that you want people to find in the book?

[A]

I want them to find truth. I want them to see in the stories that we put forward the incredible durability of faith in face of death. Most of the people. Most. It's a Profiles of Faith book more than anything. And it's Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and Falun Gong are the key. The faith communities that we portray in it. And in each of them, you see people just being. Trying to be crushed. A system trying to crush them, and they persevere through it. And ultimately, this war on faith, China will lose it. You don't know how many people they're going to kill along the way. You don't know what carnage is going to be left. Every one of these people have been deeply wounded. Some are still. One of them is still in jail. Report on him directly. He's a guy I'd met, Pastor Wang Yi, incredible public intellectual that.

[B]

Well, in fact I think picked up in early 2026. Right.

[A]

If I, if I recall correctly, Wang no, that Pastor Ezra Jinn is who was picked up earlier and is still in jail. And this now they've expanded, the web of Christian pastors are picking up.

[B]

Tell me more about these pastors because you have quite a number of chapters dedicated to various Christian pastors.

[A]

And I did that because it's one of the largest groups still operating in China that's dominantly Han Chinese. The Falun Gong had huge growth when the government allowed them to grow and then just really smashed them as much as they possibly could. But there's still the underground church going on in China, both Catholic and Protestant. What has changed recently is now you're seeing the hammer come down on these Christian leaders, even some in the state sponsored church, if they're not toeing the line right. And the expansion of the arrest has taken place. So Pastor Wang Yi was one that was arrested in 2019 that we feature in the book who I kind of laughed at it when I heard he said it. I'm sure didn't get a laugh in Beijing, but he said we're all sinners, including Xi Jinping. And he says that from the pulpit in China. And I thought, man, I'm impressed, buddy, because you know what that's going to get. It's not going to get a laugh in Beijing. And of course he's arrested, but he's a public intellectual so they got to kind of treat him a little bit cautiously. But he's still in jail from that point on forward. But now they're rounding up a lot more of the pastors. So we feature a Pastor Pan who got out through, got his whole congregation out through South Korea to a place they didn't need to get visas, then eventually Thailand and now in Midland, Texas. But he could see it coming. He says this is coming. And now his fellow pastors in a lot of the areas are being arrested and put in jail. And it's this control mechanism. They cannot stand a higher authority than the government. And you know, and it's, they're at the point too of this is all out in the open. It used to be pretty quietly done and subtly and you know, kind of trying to freeze people out. Now it's arrest them, put them in jail, some of them disappear. It's very aggressive and very open.

[B]

Now maybe tell me about a little more of kind of the details I mean, one of the characters, I always not sure how to pronounce her name exactly right, but Mergal. Right. So, I mean, what an unbelievable story. I mean, at so many levels.

[A]

That is Mergol Turson, Uyghur woman, you know, and really is kind of a classic case to study of what the Chinese did try and what they're doing now. So she's taken out of her homeland, Xinjiang, East Turkestan, when she's 10 years old, because she's, she's very smart. She passes the top of the test. And so, okay, we're taking you to Guangzhou, you know, thousands of miles away from your homeland, and we're going to educate you here. And she hated it, didn't want to do that. We're going to make you into a government apparatus and send you back, and we're going to get all the Uyghur out of you. We're going to get all the Muslim out of you, and we're sending you back because you're a bright, bright kid. Well, other Uyghurs that went with her, a couple of the girls at 12 years of age committed suicide, jumped out of the building. It's just, I don't want this. I don't want it. She survived it, eventually gets further educated in Egypt, marries an Egyptian man, and they decide, you know what, she's just way too Muslim for us. And then she gets on the hit list. She has triplets. She goes back to China. They deceive her to come back. They take her triplets from her, kill one of her children. She was a nursing mother at the time. They killed one of her children. They beat her, they put her in prison multiple times. They have police when she is out. They have police living in her home, sleeping in her bedroom with her. Just these horrible stories. And then to top it all off, this one just really amazes me. They said, okay, we're going to kill you. We've decided we're done. But you can pick the way. We can do forced injection with you, or we can shoot you, but you have to pay for each of the three bullets. We use three bullets to shoot people with in this sort of just kind of mundane, okay, you get to pick which way you go. Now, if she picks the route of the injection, she didn't have to pay for it, but they get all her organs and she signs the paper that, okay, yeah, I'm giving my body to science, or you can pay, and it's a pretty high price for the three bullets on top of it. You're just going, how does somebody even think of something like that? The rawness of it. And she denies it all. She said, just go ahead and shoot me. But these children are actually Egyptians. They were born in Egypt. And the Egyptian government's going to want these children back and somebody's going to have to take care of them. And that kind of slows them down for a little bit and they're like, oh, rats. Hadn't really thought of that. And that kind of slows the process and she doesn't get killed and they ultimately actually release her with her two children. But her story is just on so many levels. It's at a place where you can't imagine a system that can produce these types of ideas in it. And yet it does and has and executes on them. It's like a modern Auschwitz running story of okay, we're going to kill all these Jews now. We ought to get the hair and we ought to get the fillings out of their teeth and we'll see the old shoes, yeah, we can still use those. It is so industrial scale and so immoral and yet you got people executing that in the system.

[B]

You know, this is something that I really love about China's war on faith because, you know, this is something I also tried to explain through writing Killed to Order, which is just this sort of very kind of cold instrumentalization of the very, you know, basic human eradication of human dignity. Treating bodies as, you know, fodder just to be kind of used in whatever way. This is something very difficult for people to understand.

[A]

It is almost impossible for me to understand when I look at it or in your book. We can make these senior communist officials be able to live to be 150 if we can get enough spare body parts. What makes you think you're that good? That you should be killing other people for their body parts for you? I mean, it's just inconceivable to me really that people could think of themselves as that much better than somebody else. That I will kill you for your organs. And this is a good thing. Unbelievable. But that's what I mean about. It's the CCP versus Western civilization. In a Western civilization concept. No, Everybody's created equal. We don't have equal skills, we don't have equal abilities. But we're all created equal in the eyes of God. We have a human dignity that is inalienable to each of us. To each of us. No matter who you are, no matter what your skill level is, you are created equal. And you just in that system? No, no, the masters are better than the people.

[B]

I also, as I read the book, and you already started talking about this earlier, I get a lot of hope because the people that have kind of, whether it's, you know, have kind of gone through a lot and survived and are really fighting the good fight on afterwards. And so, you know, despite the darkness that you just described, I mean, there's a lot of light to be inspired

[A]

by, a lot of light to be inspired by. And that's what gives me hope in it, too, is that these are people seeking something above what is here on earth and willing to fight and willing to die for it. And in many cases, like Marigold we just talked about, she says, when I've been with her, says, they've already killed me. They killed one of my children. And then she gets transnational oppression and they say, we know where you are. And she said, shoot me, you've already killed me. But she continues to speak out at great price to her and to her family that's left back in the country. So there is. And to me, that's the key piece of what we've got to get right in the United States is China is at war with faith. And we should clearly be on the side of their opponents. And that's these people of faith who are in that country. And the religious people are, most of the times the first ones attacked, the last ones left standing. It's the only civil society left there, and they're not a rebel cause, but they don't agree with this system. This system is diabolical and they don't want it. And we should clearly, and I put forward a number of policy ideas, what we should do to elevate these people who are standing against this beast from inside its belly.

[B]

Just on one little note as we finish up, I wanted to mention this because, you know, in China there's something called the United Front work department, which of course you're very familiar with. But again, it's one of these institutions that's very difficult for us to conceive. Imagine having a department or a ministry that's one of the top funded ministries or departments in the government. That exclusive purpose is to destroy all civil society, to subvert, that is, control, that is make not civil society, or destroy all civil society, both within the country and in the diaspora and frankly, beyond into even American institutions, and that are beyond the diaspora, so to speak. I mean, that is. It's, again, it's sort of inconceivable. We don't have a An analogous massively funded magic weapon as Mao called its system.

[A]

Yeah, we don't. And we couldn't even, I guess we could conceive of it, but in my Western mind, I can't. Why would you even think of something like that? With all of the social capital that civil society and civil institutions do and they're going, no, we don't want that. We want this all controlled and answerable to the government.

[B]

It's very difficult for Americans to conceive in particular because this is, you know, de Tocqueville, this is what he pointed out back when he wrote democracy in America, right? That this sort of Americans getting together to create institutions to solve whatever problem they happen to find important. That's like the heart, the beating heart of America. That was what would make America great. That was, you know, and he was right. He was prescient. But that's precisely the thing that this united front that the CCP seeks to subvert and destroy in its entirety. I find that fascinating.

[A]

Yeah, I do too. And on a scale that you're just going, how do you maintain a functioning society then if you don't have local people answering local problems and then it's got to be somebody from Beijing decides, okay, yeah, you got a problem, we will solve it for you. Well, you got to get their attention. You got to get enough resources, you got to keep enough resources coming and just going. This is just not going to work. And it doesn't work. And it didn't work in the Soviet Union and it didn't work in Eastern Europe and it's not going to work ultimately in China. Now, near term, they figured out enough how you can make an economy go by this top down system. But ultimately you're really sucking the soul out of people and you're just making them part of a big machine that is human and is going to make all sorts of flaws and mistakes. And you take away the invisible hand, the Adam Smith invisible hand of solving the problems and make it all one visible hand. And it's the government's going to solve it. And this has failed everywhere. It's been used around the world and it ultimately will fail in China too. Just at what cost?

[B]

So now as we actually finish up, you said something interesting earlier and I just want to finish on this note. You said when it comes to human rights or forced organ harvesting or things like that, we tend to kind of plead, hey, please stop this, this is bad, and so forth. You said turn the tables or flip it around. Can you explain that a little more to me as we finish, I think

[A]

we need to elevate the issue and use it as an offensive tool. I think President Trump needs to bring into the White House people that have been persecuted for their faith from China in public meetings and have them tell their story and have it broadcast around the world and have them bring in group individuals from Falun Gong and from Tibetan Buddhists and Christians and Muslims, have them tell the story, bring in world leaders, bring in world religious leaders, showcase what is taking place in all so many places around the world of religious persecution, particularly China, and ask them to stand against this and for religious freedom for everybody, everywhere, all the time. I think he should present to Xi Jinping the nine Catholic bishops that are held somewhere, we don't know where, in prison and ask that they be released and press the Vatican to do the same thing and also to press them to plead against these and call for the end of these three genocides that are taking place in China. I think we ought to send the secretary of state, the vice president, one of the two Dharamsala, India for substantive talks with the Dalai Lama about the future of Tibet. I think we start elevating these in various forums and formats to make the clear point we are serious about this and China, you've declared this a red line and a no go zone. And we don't agree with you. And we're not going to do it that way because what you're doing is completely wrong and it's evil. And I think you ought to call it out. I think you ought to do a Ronald Reagan and say this is an evil regime, this is an evil empire. And I would love to see the pope stand up in Taiwan and say, be not afraid, like Pope John Paul did in Poland. Be not afraid.

[B]

Well, Sam Brownback, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.

[A]

My pleasure to be with you.

[B]

Thank you all for joining Sam Brownback and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Jana Kellogg.