← American Thought Leaders
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- [00:00]
A
Every day when we had our breakfast in the morning, we can hear a sound like noise. Even my son, he would say, oh, PLA come to harass again. We are under this kind of threat for decades. It's our daily life.
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B
There are few people who understand what Taiwan is really up against better than Wang Tingyu, a leader in the Taiwanese Parliament's Foreign affairs and National Defense Committee. In this episode, Wang breaks down how the CCP uses gray zone tactics and psychological warfare to destabilize Taiwan.
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A
They imposed the sanctions on me three times. They even sent gangsters try to harass me and my family. My kid's life was in danger. The full armed policemen stand in front of my house for a long time. That's a price. When you try to do something right, it's never an easy thing.
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B
This is American Thought Leaders and I'm
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C
Jania Kellock Legislator Wang Tingyu.
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B
Such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.
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A
It's my honor to have this opportunity with you.
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C
So you've been repeatedly the chair of the Taiwan's Foreign affairs and National Defense Committee and you've watched Beijing apply pressure from many different angles onto your country. Many military exercises, cognitive warfare, diplomatic isolation, economic coercion. You've talked about all these things. Among these methods, what do you think is the most dangerous?
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A
I always use an example of my family. When my son, when he was three years old. Now he is 24. Every day when we had our breakfast in the morning, we can hear the thunder like noise, the engines start, the air fighters. Even my son when he was 2, 3 years old, he would say, oh PLA come to harass again. We are under this kind of threat for decades. It's our daily life. So what is the most dangerous threat? Air fighters, destroyers, missiles, drones. Those kind of military of course is real and very not disturbing but however, those disinformation from inside our psychological defense line is the most important thing. Those autocracy, communism, they always using fake news disinformation, those twisted news polluted by their intention to penetrate your society. Make your younger generation through those tiktoks, something like that. Through some kind of social media to try to divide your society. Sometimes we just support different party. But through those disinformation, people don't trust your government. They that kind disinformation sabotage this society, divide your society into pieces. I think it's the most dangerous thing caused by China Communists.
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C
I think probably Americans and Canadians, which is, I am Canadian could learn a
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A
lot from this democracy. Our society is an open Society we value freedom of speech, we value diversification. That's our advantage. But sometimes those autocracies, such like Iran, China, North Korea, they control all the concept, control all the speech, control all the right. So when they try to influence your society, Canada or United States or Taiwan, we are democracy people's votes going to influence your policy making process. So try to influence your cognition. Then you can influence your behavior to vote. So they try to influence your awareness. They become racism, become these colored people. Had white people, Democrats had Republican in Taiwan in the past, it's just you support different party, no big deal. We are friends, we are families, we are neighbors. But now we hate each other. So how to make your people realize what is right, what is wrong? It's the most challenging situation to the democracy society.
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C
This is one of the things that at epoch times, this is actually our purpose to try to present good, clear information to the people in whatever country we're operating in.
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A
Yes, epoch time you provide a clean Internet. Information comes from different kind of sources. It's okay, sometimes you look from this angle, I look from that angle. We are different. We don't have to agree with each other, but we can work together. We can get along with each other. But what is a twist? Twist information or disinformation fact or to try to exaggerate the difference. Make difference, become dispute. Make dispute, become conflict. For example, we mentioned the military coercion, military threat. So we need modern equipment, we need all kind major battle tank. We need a switchblade, a drone, something like that. But if your awareness twisted by those disinformation, you don't trust your. You don't loyal to your own country. You worry about the soldier next to you. We have different races, we support different party. I don't have to fight for you. In the past we fight for our country, we defend our families. But now those twist information, those disinformation influence your recognition. You think we are from different parties, we hate each other. Then even you have the modern equipment. That kind of soldiers cannot defend your country in school, on the street. If people lose the trust to the system, lose the trust to the democracy and lost the love to this country, to this land. Just because of disinformation. Even you have millions of soldiers, you have thousands of policemen. You cannot keep your society stick together. I'm not talking about purify the information. I try to remind the democracy, the modern world, how to educate our next generation. How to help our civilian, our people to distinguish what is correct. This information provided by cctv, this Information provided by foreign government and especially its autocracy government. We need to let our people realize to distinguish the background of all kinds of information.
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C
So what you're talking about is an education for people to be able to have critical thinking and be able to understand the value of different kinds of information.
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A
Yeah. Now technology improve a lot Deep fact. Through AI Yang, I can even create your image, your voice to speak the most terrible words you cannot imagine through technology. So how to distinguish it's real? I think it's quite important not only to our generation, this adult, our next generation. And a lot of fraud happen by this kind of information. A lot of country on the street become chaos. Try to attack each other because of this kind of information. So if millions of people think it's true, but actually it's false, that will be a problem. In Taiwan, during COVID 19, our former Prime Minister Su Jensen he built of SOP we call three three step. First, once disinformation occurred, those ministry related to this disinformation. You have to response it within 60 minutes. If you use lower than 60 minutes, this disinformation spread around. The damage happens. If one disinformation occurred, ministry administration need to response it within 60 minutes. Second, the response try to provide correct information. Must be humorous, must be fun. Because our research, our study shows to spread the information if it is funny, that go faster. So and the third thing you need to locate the origin where the disinformation the very first moment occurred. Before that, we need to verify what is this information we need to deal with. That's the key. First, this information must be felt. The second one, it must damage public interest. Third must be intentionally. Then we go through this stroke procedure. So during COVID 19, there is a decimation occurred almost at the same time in Japan, in United States and in Taiwan. Let's say the toilet paper runs out in a convenience store. So people watch this information come, they rush in, go to the supermarket, try to grab as much as possible the toilet paper. It's disinformation damage public interest. And this information comes from China. So my government do the response that they draw a picnic, a picture, a photo showing a cartoon person and lean on the window showing the buttocks. Say how many buttocks you have? You don't need that much toilet paper. And this, this, this picture very very funny. So spread three times faster than the disinformation. Then ease this tension. Then locate the original information comes from China. So we need to deal with this carefully. We don't want to damage our freedom. So we don't want to restrain people's freedom of speech. So we need to deal with the real disinformation based on according to law and through these three procedures and a response as fast as possible. And after we ease the tension caused by disinformation, then we try to locate where is from and how to deal with that. So, Taiwan, we have an old saying, if you get sick longer enough, you can be a good doctor. So Taiwan, we are the world number one under cyber attack disinformation. We are number one every day. The cyber attack malware around 22.5 million times per hour every day. So we are under cyber attack severely. So as a survivor, we know how to deal with that and we are willing to share our experiences and our lessons to our democracy. Friends.
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B
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C
And now back to our program. Sometimes even in democratic countries, the governments themselves peddle disinformation because they have some agenda, right? And then that will undermine a genuine effort like yours, because people say, oh, that's just the government doing its own disinformation. Yeah, right. You See, it's make. It's a. I find this a very difficult question because you're absolutely right. Those tools of, you know, these farms and all of that very negative impact on societies and very divisive like you explained. And at the same time I worry that our own governments learn from that. The bad lesson in many cases. Right. Then really no one knows what's true or not.
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A
Sometimes the world is not black and white. It's not easy to tell what is true, what is false. I agree with that.
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C
That's why I think you have to decide. Well, I find this to be an honest source of information. Right. This is why we listen, we're trying, that's our effort to be an honest source of information that anybody can come to and try and you know, of course it's our perspective. Every source of information has some viewpoint.
- [16:31]
A
You have done, you have done a lot contribution to this issue. But it cannot depend on one media. Of course it depends everyone. So my feeling is sometimes disinformation causing damage more serious than autocracy in democracy country. Why? Because democracy country we have parties, different party. So sometimes this disinformation damage that party, your opposite party. Do you have that kind of courage to say no, it's not right, that's right or oh, this disinformation damage my competitors. So try to exaggerate it, try to make worse. So in a democracy society we have a mechanism, check and balance. Administration need to be check balance by representative mechanism, representative branches. So executive executive branches, you cannot do whatever you want. You need to get your budget, your law passed by people elected representatives. Check and balance. And this competition try to win the votes from people and autocracy they don't have this. Xi Jinping is a super king of China, whatever he say. So in open society, in democracy, because we have party competition. So when disinformation occurred, especially related to government related to political projects or related to maybe ethic racist, sometimes this party can get advantage from that kind of disinformation. Then what's your choice to disclosure this is disinformation. Or try to help the disinmation to destroy you, destroy your. Your competitors is not easy. And not only in the States, but also in Taiwan we are facing.
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C
You're saying you have to do the moral thing. You're saying you have to practice your morality.
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A
Yeah. And I do believe democracy is the best system we have.
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C
You know, there's. I think it was Winston Churchill that said it's. Democracy is a terrible system. Except for all the other systems.
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A
Yes, Something like that agree.
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I hope I got it right.
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A
There is not perfect system but the democracy system can let people make decision on your own. You are free based on knowledge information you have. That's why CCP and all the autocracy country try to pollute your information system that they think that's the best strategy to counter democracy. And democracy can help people can heal people on their own. Because there is this information then the correct information occurred at the same time because it's democracy, everybody can say anything you want when somebody says something terrible. When some media provide stupid news then some media like your media like epic times you can provide your counter information then who is a judge people I have 100% freedom access to get all different kind of information then I can, I can do my own judgment. And autocracy is the information you can only have is your kin allow you to read. You don't have opportunity to make your own judgment. And if we can make our own judgment, even this system full of chaos compared with the other system it still be still the best way we can live.
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C
There's been many ways in which the Chinese Communist Party has kind of pushed itself into Taiwanese society including even owning some of the media or having a lot of control over some of the media here. Right. So there's also that aspect. It's not just social media. There's kind of deep connections that it's developed.
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A
Some media has the title of media but it's kind of propaganda for some certain entity. And sometimes we don't like communism is they are willing to spend a bunch of money to damage the other country but they don't want to use that kind of money to help their own people. Has breed health care, something like that. Why? Because stay in power is the most important thing for autocracy. Democracy is how to keep your people happy is the most important thing. Try to please all kind of voters. Try to help my communities because I need your votes. Nesarch so it's different philosophy autocracy tried to keep himself stay in power no matter how many lives sacrificed, no matter the economy going to face a recession. No, I need to spend the money to protect my own power, sabotage my threats government try to divide United States make their society in chaos because then I can protect my position, my power and inside leg system in China, for example no one dare to provide second opinion to your leaders. Everyone try to guess what you want. I want to please you. I only provide the answer you want. Because if I dare to provide true answer or a second opinion I'm not only risking my career life, I'm risking my real life. So in that kind of system, everyone tries to please the king, the superpower. And people can be sacrificed. Economy can be sacrificed, social welfare can be sacrificed. So they are willing to using money, using their budget to causing trouble to the other country. But democracy is not that way. If you are city councilman, you are a federal congressman or like me, I am, I'm a legislator. The only thing I think my top priority is to make my people live in happiness. They need job, they need bridge across river. They need good environment in school. They need their country to be protected. So that's why I wonder some of my colleagues so pro China, they try to cut our self defense budget. People don't like that. You try to realize what my people want. They want their kids. Their grandson still has the freedom to make their own choice. That's the core spirit of democracy. Not try to please someone higher than you. Not try to make your supervisor happy. Not try to make your own wealthy or make your own life better. No democracy, the true spirit is when you become a public servant, serve your your public, make your people in happy safe life and keep this kind of happiness to next generation. That's how we do, that's how we do things in Taiwan.
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C
You mentioned this defense budget that was passed recently and it's a lot lower than maybe expected. So explain to me more about that situation and the impact of that on the relationship with the United States.
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A
We need to talk about this from a bigger picture. Since 2013, Xi Jinping become China leader. The president of CCP he keep increased investment in military expense every year. Increase 7% in 2026. China their expense in military affairs is beyond 1 trillion in US dollars. It's huge money. And they build destroyers, amphibious boats, all kind aircraft missiles. And Taiwan is a frontier. We are under this kind of giant threat. And Taiwan is not the only one. When China keep increase their expense in military budget and those military activities gray zone corrosion toward Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, Korea. And February 2025 and February 2026, China even send their destroyers sail to Australia, have live fire exercise over there. So it's aggressive, provocative. And they try to create their own new norm. They don't follow all kind of international regulation. They don't respect international law. They don't respect sovereignty owned by different country. They enter Philippines territory water and they keep harass Taiwan ty territory water and they send their aircraft to harass Japan's sky. So this kind of threat keep increasing my personal belief Is to protect my country is our own responsibilities. No one should rely your families on somebody else shoulder. It's all is our own responsibilities. However, if you realize the value and importance of Taiwan. Give Taiwan a hand is helping the world. If you look at the map, Taiwan is the center of first island chain Its strategic importance. Whoever have Taiwan can control Japan. Whoever control Taiwan can control West Pacific and the Philippine Sea. If CCP occupy Taiwan, Guan Island, Okinawa will be no importance. United States front need to move their Guan island defense line backward to Hawaii. So Taiwan play very important strategic position. All the. All the vital transportation to Japan go through Taiwan. And the cargo ship in the world 51% go through Taiwan.
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C
So once the Taiwan Strait.
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A
Taiwan Strait.
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C
Yes, that's right.
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A
So once Taiwan Strait occurred military conflict. It's not only damage Taiwan, it going to destroy global economy. So this is first importance. Second, Taiwan play very critical, very important vital role in supply chain. Not only semiconductors, of course advanced chips, AI chips. Taiwan almost produce 100% the whole world advance chip. 96% produced here from Taiwan. And average chips average semiconductors 60% manufactured here local in Taiwan. Not only that, if you look at all kind of machinery, precision machine and low orbit component. Even Tesla without Taiwan cannot run. So Taiwan is play very important role in. In global supply chain. And if you want something reliable without China factor, the portion will be higher. So to defend my own country, to protect my family Is our own responsibilities. But if you realize the importance of Taiwan. Helping Taiwan is not only helping Taiwanese people, these nice people, but help the world. TSMC is a famous factory. Now some people think TSMC make too much money. But TSMC is provide fundamental chips. And Taiwan we are good at that. Once Taiwan TSMC make $1 in Taiwan create $3.6 in United States. Because TSMC lost chips. When we transport those chips to United States, it becomes some kind of final goods Become refrigerator, washing machine, satellite, aviation equipment, toys. All the tools need chips. And when Taiwan provide those chips in reasonable price to the world. And most goes to United States. It becomes some kind add valued products. So it plus 3.6 times value. So why Taiwan matters? Because supply chain. Because strategic position. And plus one thing I think is the most important. Because beyond all the cost or money value. Taiwan is a frontier of democracy, human rights, freedom in religions, all the value. We believe once Taiwan get invaded by CCP or military conflict occur in this region is going to be disaster. So based on these bigger general pictures. My president Weed and Lai he made a public commitment. We are going to increase our defense budget beyond 3% of our GDP and 5% by 2029 we need to increase our self defense expense to show our determination to protect our own country to stabilize this regional peace and stability and to show our determination and to increase to modernize our military defense capability. So that's what we are doing now. So since last year my government we increase our annual defense budget near to 600 billion Taiwan dollars we think it's not enough so we introduce a spatial budget 8 years going to increase 1.25 trillion spatial defense budget. However democracy you need to communicate with opposition party. So our opposition party KMT and the TPP they don't like this. They claim to delete it all cut it into zero and the Taiwan mainstream Taiwanese people don't like they want to
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C
cut the budget to zero or the increase to zero cut it into zero.
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A
They don't we don't need special budget this 1.25 trillion they think this special budget we don't need that Taiwanese people say we don't no matter which party we support the poll shows people support spatial defense budget and those opposition party they feel the pressure from our people so international atmosphere they think Taiwan should be responsible for their own security From United States Trump administration urge opposition party being reasonable don't delete your own defense budget if you don't value your own security Nobody will value your security more than you. So our opposition party under the pressure from our allies and inside heaven this is most important all the postures people don't like that. So next week our government going to introduce new special budget try to rescue those budget late delete. So we need to increase our defense annual budget. So plus this our defense budget going to very close. We are beyond 4% of our GDP and the EU plus coast guard expense our society resilience readiness budget into account that will be close to 5% of our GDP and my President will and I promise to reach that point by 2029 and year 2027. We are quite close to what we commit to defend our own country.
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C
Some countries are creating greater cooperation with communist China. For example, my home country Canada recently has officially been pursuing a strategic relationship. Right? The policy has changed quite a bit recently. What do you think of that kind of approach?
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A
We are not kids from kindergarten we can live with. You are CCP's friends and we are still close friends. Who is naive? Who is childish CCP they are China is the only one to forbidden their friends to make friends with Taiwan. We never object that yeah United States Canada, Japan, all the country. Of course you can be friends of China. It's no problem with Taiwan. And we still can be friends. We are not naive. We. We know sometimes some country because of commercial interest. Sometimes because security issue. Sometimes for personal reason. They want to be close with China. We are fine.
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C
Well, it's okay. But I guess what I'm asking you is do you think it's a good idea?
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A
Of course not a good idea. So it's a phenomenon. But this phenomenon has two sides, has two faces. Some countries try to get engaged close partnership with China and they try to steal your what you can do. They will steal your technology. They will try to dump their mass products to your market. Try to replace your original supply chain. They try to encourage their people enter your society. But those people cannot enjoy democracy life. They have deep fear controlled by Beijing government. So there are several countries. Honduras. Honduras stopped the diplomatic relationship with Taiwan a couple of years ago. And they believe in China's commitment. Such a big country commitment billions of investment to their country. And now last year their major income from shrimp their agricultural products. China doesn't fulfill their commitment. 40% of their farmer lost their job. And the worst part is cheap products from China get into their handles their their domestic market and destroy their original economic ecology. They suffer from that. So the the. The early of this year handlas their national wide election. All pro China's candidates, everyone all 100% pro China parliament fail in their election. And those pro democracy close to United States. And the major two candidates say if they win their presidency they are going to restart their diplomatic relationship with Taiwan. Those two take more than 80% of the war the votes. You can make friends with China, fine. But if you abandon all the value you believe, you abandon the democracy, you abandon your friends, you abandon the trust. Just want to get benefit from China all outcome will be very miserable. It's not smart move. So Canada is a big country, G7 country. Of course you have your own strategy to deal with global issues. But if you put Canadian economy close to China. Look at China. More than 25% of their younger generation out of employees their real estate. The top three company IPO company collapsed. Their cash flow stopped. Their tier 2 country. Tier 2 cities cannot afford to pay the teachers, public employee public servants wages and salary. And they keep increase their expense in military needs. So that kind of country, if you put your country too close to that kind of society. I think it's not a smart decision.
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C
Beijing has put you on a Taiwan hardliner sanctions list for talking about Such things. Presumably there's maybe some other reasons. But how do you respond to that the sanctions?
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A
To me, I got let me three times. One they announced that me and Rubio almost at the same time. But they changed Rubio's Chinese name. Then Rubio can enter China freely. It's a joke. But to me some people will say, oh, I got sanctioned by China, it's a medal of honor. Yeah, we can say that. But what I would try to say, it's a marks. It's a mark of an autocracy how they treat human beings. I support my own country, I support my kids have their own right to make their own choice. And I got sanctions. Why? It's evidence of an autocracy. When China impose sanction on Rubio's. It's not Rubio's business what Rubio has done. Rubio support democracy allies. Then the they impose sanction on Rubio and now they lift the sanction because he's a state secretary too big. I can avoid that. So that is a mark. That is evidence of how autocracy deal with affairs related to human beings.
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C
Basically you're saying they just have this arbitrary decision making. This is a mark of this arbitrary decision making of a autocracy.
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A
Yes, I think sometimes I think it's their weakness. Young, maybe you will be on the name list of sanctions soon.
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C
I hope not.
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B
Maybe never get to be on those lists at least.
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A
But it's okay. Trust me, it's okay. But for example, when they put your name on the list to impose sanctions, that means you are doing something positive to human rights. Positive to those precious value we believe in. When your name on the list CCP impose sanction on you, that means they are afraid of you. They can do nothing about you. Just only can say we sanction you. You cannot enter China. We try to do something harass your relatives in China. We try to harass your business or your friend's business in China. When are doing such a childish things because they are afraid of you. What you have done, what you believe jeopardize their power.
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C
But you are much closer to China here, just across the strait than I am. Are you not worried?
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A
Actually I can share your secret with you. They imposed ascension on me three times. And they even sent gangsters try to harass me and my family. My kid's life was in danger. The full armed policeman stand in front of my house for a long time. That's a price. When you try to do something right, you know to choose a route to do something right. It's never an easy thing sometimes. Be obedience to those monster. Be obedience to those dictator. Your life will be easier. But it's not right. I won't say it's easy under the concrete. Look at your kids. 3, 5, 7 years old. It's not easy. But the only thing you can blame is ccp. We have do nothing wrong. I was a city councilman. Now I'm a legislator when China impose sanction on me. You know, in Taiwan we emphasize transparency. So all the person or company when they donate contribution to my campaign. I need to honestly file a report to our institute that would be public. So China based on those materials the colon. This is China. We know you are supporting someone named Wang Dingyu. We impose sanction on him. If you keep supporting him, you will be you will facing some harsh results. They're doing some this kind try to intimidate my supporters. This is crime. So I'm happy Now we have more colleagues join my line. Dozens of people. We are all on the list. But I think soon evil will be gone soon.
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C
Well, Wang Tingyu, it's such a pleasure to have had you on.
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A
It's my honor to have you here. I hope you can come to Taiwan more often. Please.
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C
I'll make a point of that.
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B
Thank you all for joining Legislator Wang Tingyu and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Janye Kellick.