S1:EP 2 - Abduction Part 2

Summary

America's Crime Lab
Season 1, Episode 2: Abduction Part 2
Release Date: July 16, 2025

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Overview

In the second installment of the Carla Walker case, "Abduction Part 2," host Aylin Lance Lesser delves deeper into the decades-old mystery surrounding Carla Walker's abduction and murder. This episode explores the evolving investigative techniques, introduces key figures who reignite the search for justice, and highlights the groundbreaking role of forensic genetic genealogy in solving cold cases.

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Background of the Carla Walker Case

[03:22] Paul Holes:
"A cold case by definition is code because there's no more leads. Police have nothing else to look at."

Karla Walker was abducted at gunpoint from a bowling alley parking lot in Fort Worth, Texas, in 1970. For 46 years, the case remained unsolved, casting a shadow of suspicion over her then-boyfriend, Rodney, while others believed in his innocence. Despite persistent efforts by various detectives and the Walker family, the truth remained elusive—until new technology and determined individuals stepped in.

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Evidence and Initial Suspicions

[04:45] Aylin Lance Lesser:
"This is part two of the Carla Walker case. If you haven't listened to part one yet, please go back and listen."

The police collected several pieces of evidence:

• Carla’s powder blue dress, underwear, and bra.
• Rodney’s blood-stained shirt.
• A Ruger .22 magazine found at the crime scene.

[06:38] Katherine Fenollosa:
"Rodney's friends and the people that know him well are like, there is absolutely no way that Rodney did this. He adored Carla."

Despite Rodney's consistent assertions of innocence, discrepancies in his timeline and behavior raised suspicion. Notably, Rodney failed to return to Carla's house within an hour and a half after the abduction, a point of contention that fueled ongoing doubts about his involvement.

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Introduction to Paul Holes and Forensic Genetic Genealogy

[08:59] Katherine Fenollosa:
"I'm gonna sort of fast forward to 2019 and Carla's case catches the attention of Paul Holes."

Paul Holes, renowned for solving the Golden State Killer case, becomes a pivotal figure in re-examining Carla Walker's case. His expertise in forensic genetic genealogy offers a new avenue to uncover the truth.

[12:12] Jim:
"In 1980, Charlene Smith was one of Golden State Killer's victims, and her sex kit was pristine. The coroner's office had kept it, and we were able to get a ton of Golden State Killer DNA from her vaginal swab."

This breakthrough in DNA technology allows investigators to link DNA evidence from crime scenes to distant relatives, constructing family trees that can lead to the perpetrator.

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The Cowtown Cold Case Chicks and Othram's Involvement

[16:11] Katherine Fenollosa:
"Diane Kuykendall is part of a group called the Cowtown Cold Case Chicks—four women from Fort Worth who bonded over their shared interest in cold cases."

The group, consisting of Diane Kuykendall, Kathleen Barnett, Mary Kay Kruger, and Rose Moorlock, takes a proactive role in reviving Carla Walker's case. Their dedication leads them to CrimeCon, where they present Carla's case to Paul Holes.

[33:05] Katherine Fenollosa:
"David and Kristin Mittleman, founders of Othram, watch the episode and feel compelled to help solve Carla's case using their advanced DNA technology."

Othram, a Texas-based lab specializing in forensic DNA analysis, becomes instrumental in re-analyzing the evidence with cutting-edge techniques.

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Breakthrough and Resolution

[40:14] Katherine Fenollosa:
"Detective Bennett ships the final tiny bits of DNA evidence to Othram, hoping for a breakthrough."

Despite initial setbacks—such as the consumption of the primary DNA sample—Othram's forensic-grade genome sequencing successfully analyzes a mixed DNA sample from Carla's dress. This advanced method examines up to one million DNA markers, vastly exceeding traditional techniques.

[44:45] Paul Holes:
"I'll never forget being able to call Jim and tell him, we arrested the individual who murdered your sister. The case is closed."

The meticulous collaboration between detectives, the Cowtown Cold Case Chicks, and Othram culminates in the arrest of the perpetrator, bringing long-awaited justice to Carla Walker's family and the community.

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Notable Quotes

• Paul Holes [03:22]:
  "A cold case by definition is code because there's no more leads. Police have nothing else to look at."

• Katherine Fenollosa [06:38]:
  "Rodney doesn't show up at Carla's parents house for a long time after he says that she was abducted."

• Jim [15:24]:
  "This was the first time it had been used in this type of investigation. And it really wasn't until several months later... I was just like, ah, gotcha."

• Kristin Mittleman [43:07]:
  "We knew we were working with the last bit of sample that was left. We were going to be the last chance."

• Paul Holes [44:45]:
  "I'll never forget being able to call Jim and tell him, we arrested the individual who murdered your sister. The case is closed."

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Conclusion

"Abduction Part 2" not only highlights the persistence required to solve cold cases but also underscores the transformative impact of modern DNA technology. Through the combined efforts of dedicated individuals and innovative forensic science, Carla Walker's tragic story finds its resolution, offering hope and closure to those affected.

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Additional Information

For those interested in exploring more about forensic genetic genealogy and its role in criminal investigations, Othram stands out as a leader in the field, providing advanced DNA analysis that continues to solve cases that were once deemed unsolvable.

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This summary excludes advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the narrative and investigative progression of Carla Walker's case.

Transcript

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Howie Mandel]

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[Katherine Fenollosa]

Premium wireless and if you haven't made.

[Gwen Washington]

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[Katherine Fenollosa]

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[Gwen Washington]

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[Katherine Fenollosa]

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[Gwen Washington]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Katherine Fenollosa]

Are you playing me off?

[Gwen Washington]

That's what's happening, right?

[Howie Mandel]

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[David Mittleman]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Kaleidoscope.

[Paul Holes]

A cold case by definition is code because there's no more leads. Police, you know, have nothing else to look at. Right. Rodney's story, it actually had some question marks on it. I do understand why Rodney became a suspect.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I'm Aelin Lance Lesser, and this is America's crime lab. This is part two of the Carla Walker case. If you haven't listened to part one yet, please go back and listen. It has some really important information that'll bring you up to speed. It's 2020 in Fort Worth, Texas. It's been 46 years since Karla Walker was abducted at gunpoint from a bowling alley parking lot. And a cloud of suspicion hangs over Rodney, Carla's boyfriend at the time. Other people are convinced that he's innocent. Teams of detectives have worked on the case, but after decades of searching, they're no closer to finding who killed Carla Walker. Until now. Producer Katherine Fenollosa is here to pick up the story. Hey, Katherine.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Hey, Aylan.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So what evidence do the police have?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So they have a few things. They have the powder blue dress that Carla was wearing the night of the dance, and they have her underwear and bra. They also have Rodney's shirt, which is covered in blood. And they have the magazine to the gun that was found in the parking lot of the bowling alley.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

But we're not sure that they. The magazine is related to Carla's murder, right?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah. I mean, you have to remember this is the 1970s in Texas. So it is not crazy that someone else could have dropped part of their gun in the parking lot. But the police do collect it as evidence. The last bit of evidence that we have is Rodney's story.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And are people believing Rodney's story at this point?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

The town is really torn apart over this. So Rodney's friends and the people that know him well are like, there is absolutely no way that Rodney did this. He adored Carla He's a gentle guy. You have to remember, Rodney is a senior in high school when this all happens, and the police are showing up at his baseball games to question him. Everywhere he goes in town, he feels like eyes are on him. And this is, you know, Rodney. He's lost his girlfriend tragically, but he's also lost the Walker family. Everybody that I talked to described how Rodney had been really adopted by Carla's family and taken in, especially Carla's father, who is this former military, just this very big guy essentially adopts Rodney. And after this, he's lost that connection to the Walker family. The stress of everyone in town looking at him finally gets to him, and he actually leaves Fort Worth and moves to Alaska just to get out of town.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah. Is it stressful or is he escaping?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Nobody knows. Jim, Carla's brother, really does every and anything he can to keep this case in front of detectives. So when the detectives keep circling back around Rodney, Jim admits he's like, I don't know. Yeah, let's look into Rodney. Maybe he did it. His story does seem a little strange.

[Paul Holes]

I started remembering that cut on his right cheek, and it wasn't freshly bleeding, it was coagulating. Remember me saying that.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

There are a few things about this case that do raise a lot of suspicion. One, Rodney doesn't show up at Carla's parents house for a long time after he says that she was abducted.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

How long?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

It's at least an hour after he says she was taken from the car. Now, Rodney will say that it's because he was knocked unconscious, but who knows.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

What'S more believable, that someone randomly came across their car in a place they didn't necessarily plan to be, attacked them, abducted Carla left Rodney, her boyfriend, alive, and then just disappeared into the night. I mean, it just all sounds a little sketchy to me, but at the same time, if he didn't do it, I mean, what a horrible nightmare.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Police start looking into the Ruger.22, which is sort of a unique kind of gun.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Why?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So it's the way that the magazine attaches to the rest of the gun and there is a release button so that it, you know, you can take it off and put more bullets in and put it back in. And where this release button is, is at the bottom of the shaft of the gun. So if you believe Rodney, that he was being beaten over the head with the gun, it could make sense that the attacker's hand accidentally pressed the button and the magazine falls out onto the ground of the parking lot.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, that Makes sense. I mean, I feel like one could argue that the fact that it was there might even support Rodney's story.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So I'm gonna sort of Fast forward to 2019 and Carla's case catches the attention of Paul Holes.

[Jim]

I was suspicious of Rodney. His statements were goofy. Every time he said something, he said something different. Like, dramatically different.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

I'm guessing. As a true crime fan yourself, you probably know who Paul Holes is.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Oh, yeah, he's the detective involved in solving the Golden State Killer case. So how does he get involved in Carla's murder?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Actually, can we take a quick second to talk about the Golden State Killer case?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, totally.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So that was in the 70s and 80s in California, right?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah. And wasn't there a rash of rapes and murders happening pretty much all through Southern California up to the Bay Area? Which is why he ended up being called the Golden State Killer, because he covered such a huge part of the state.

[Jim]

This is a case that has over 160 known crimes across 15 different law enforcement jurisdictions. It was unsolved for 44 years. Millions of dollars had been thrown at it. Hundreds of investigators had worked on it. We have over 50 sexually motivated attacks in Northern California. Husbands were bound up while their wives are being raped in the next room. And then he moves down to Southern California and starts bludgeoning couples to death. In a couple of cases, single females to death in their own bed.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So initially, in the Golden State Killer case, police thought they were searching for two different attackers. They didn't have any solid leads, but what they did have was evidence collected from all of these crime scenes. So when the early stages of DNA technology comes along, investigators upload a DNA profile from one of these crime scenes into the federal system, which is called codis. And that's basically a database that can link DNA from crime scene evidence to a known offender.

[Jim]

It was like, oh, our serial rapist in Northern California from the 1970s is this serial killer down in Southern California.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So they know they were looking for one perpetrator, not two.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Exactly. But the problem is, is that CODIS doesn't tell them who that person is. Just that there is this one person on a killing and rape spree across California.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

But that's also kind of depressing in that it's like you can only identify the person through DNA with that system if they've already committed a crime. So it's like you're not necessarily catching them if they haven't been caught before.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

But things start to change around 2018 with something called forensic genetic genealogy. Paul Holes. And a team of investigators take evidence from a rape kit that was collected from one of the golden state crime scenes 40 years earlier.

[Jim]

In 1980, Charlene Smith was one of Golden State Killer's victims out of Ventura, and her sex kit was pristine. The coroner's office had kept it, and we were able to get a ton of Golden State Killer DNA from her vaginal swab.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

And they're able to create a DNA profile of the attacker from the semen, and they upload that profile to genetic genealogy databases to find people the attacker may be related to.

[Jim]

And we started doing the genealogy process and ultimately found a second cousin.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Huh. So this is similar to doing your own genetic genealogy on a commercial site to find out who your relatives are.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah. And in both cases, you start building out family trees, and usually the information leads you to, like, third, fourth, or fifth cousin. So it's somewhat distant relationships, but it's creating a puzzle, and you're trying to find different pieces of the puzzle to lead you closer to the person that you're actually looking for.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So investigators also dig through public records like wedding announcements, obituaries, things like that, to fill in all these missing pieces of the puzzle. And after doing all of that research, Paul Holz says they narrow in on one family tree in particular.

[Jim]

Ultimately, an investigative Assistant out of SAC DA's office sends me an email on my 50th birthday and was like, hey, here's somebody in the family tree. It's a Auburn police officer, Joseph d'. Angelo. And I was like, no, there's just no way.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

And here's the crazy part. He was never even a suspect. I mean, they would have never found him, essentially. And he goes on to plead guilty to 13 murders and 13 rapes, but he also confesses to dozens and dozens of other violent crimes. And, Ailin, I have to tell you, when I went back and really read about what the Golden State Killer had done, it is, like, beyond horrific. This new DNA technology absolutely blows Paul Holes away. And he's realizing that DNA could hold the answer to solving lots of other cold cases.

[Jim]

This was the first time it had been used in this type of investigation. And it really wasn't until several months later when I was just sitting, you know, in my man cave, and I was sipping bourbon, and I pulled up a. A photo of DeAngelo. Just. He was slumped over in the interview room, just absolutely depressed. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. You know, and that's really the moment that I finally had that realization, okay, we accomplished something pretty big here.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

It seems like this is a massive shift in the way crimes could be solved. So how does this connect to Carla Walker's murder?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Paul Holz now retires from law enforcement, and the Golden State Killer case really puts him on the map. He has a TV show, he has a podcast, and he ends up speaking at CrimeCon, which is this big conference for true crime enthusiasts. And one particular year, it's held in Nashville.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Across the concourse over there is Paul Holes, and he's got his hands on his hips like he just got there, and he's just taking it all in. And so I made a beeline for Paul Holes.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So this woman who makes a beeline for Paul Holes is Diane Kuykendall. She is at crimecon because she's part of a group of friends called the Cowtown Cold Case Chicks. It's four women who did not know each other, but they all grew up in Fort Worth. And during COVID they connected online.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

There was a Facebook page that was about Fourth Memories, and there was a group of us on there that were talking about some of the old murders. And we got to talking and carrying on, and somebody said, wouldn't it be fun if we got together and had dinner and talked about all the murders?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So they met at a local pancake house, and pretty quickly, they found themselves talking about the murder of Carla Walker. Diane actually went to high school with Carla.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Really? Small world.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah. I mean, they weren't friends because they were a couple grades apart, but Diane remembers seeing Carla in the hallway by the lockers and said she was always bubbly and smiling. And Diane actually lived in the same neighborhood as Carla's family. Another woman, Kathleen Barnett, is married to Rodney's best friend. You know, Rodney was Carla's boyfriend at the time, and Rodney was the best man at Kathleen's wedding. And there are two more women in the group, Mary Kay Kruger and Rose Moorlock. And Kathleen says they are all longtime crime junkies.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

When I was a little girl, us and all the neighborhood kids would sit out on our porch, and my dad would tell us all these horror stories.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

About things like, you know, the man with a claw coming and getting.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You know, at least half of his.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Stories had to do with couples on Lovers Lane. And so when it happened to Carla.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And Rodney, it was just like the.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Worst nightmares coming true. So after meeting in person at the pancake restaurant, these women decide to investigate Carla's murder on their own. Now, Alan True Crime is what bonds them. But they will be the first to tell you that they are wildly different from one another.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I love it when unsuspecting people connect, you know, when they're drawn to each other.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

I know. Diane is a retired postal worker and the hippie of the group. Kathleen is a lawyer. Rose is a self proclaimed conservative with very salty language. And Mary kay worked at RadioShack for years. They love to meet up for drinks, but they have some unofficial rules. They do not discuss politics.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Smart.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

But any murder is fair game. Mary Kay says they each quickly found their roles in the group.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

We've got our attorney and she does great research. We have Diane, who keeps us organized and on track. Rose is fearless, and I'm just really nosy. I can't just speak out and say, so I understand you. You murdered your neighbor. You know, Rose can do that. I can't. But I can sit with the other neighbors and listen to what they had to say about it all.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

And then one day, Diane hears about CrimeCon.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And I had just retired and I said, you know, I think I'm going to give myself a little present and I'm going to go to Nashville. I can see why Diane made a beeline for Paul Holes. Because I'm guessing after the Golden State Killer was caught, they're thinking, can we do the same thing with Karla Walker's case?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah, exactly. So they put together a folder with all the details about Carla's case, and Diane sets off on this mission to CrimeCon to get this folder in the hands of, of Paul Holes.

[Jim]

And a woman had come up to me and handed me information on the Carla Walker case.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Then I kind of challenged him at the end and I said, you know, somebody just needs to work this case and do the DNA on it because it can be solved.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

And their timing actually couldn't have been any better because the TV show that Paul Holes hosts is actually looking for a new case to investigate. Paul's like flipping through this folder that Diane has handed him and he thinks, oh, you know what? Carla Walker's murder is pretty interesting.

[Jim]

This very brazen abduction, you know, to, to take 17 year old woman, this girl basically away from her boyfriend who's a star football player. And sure enough, I, I read into it and I was like, yeah, I want to see if I can help out on that case.

[Gwen Washington]

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[Howie Mandel]

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[Gwen Washington]

Angwyn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week, we don't just tell stories. We drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk?

[Howie Mandel]

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[Gwen Washington]

Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So Diane and these women are successful in pulling Paul holes in the case. So then what happens?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Paul reaches out to Detective Jeff Bennett. Detective Bennett has just been assigned to the cold case unit in Fort Worth. And Paul tells Jeff he has a pretty enticing offer. He says if he can feature Carla's case on his TV show, that he'll pay for the DNA testing of the evidence in Carla's case. And so that's what happens. Paul heads down to Fort Worth. He visits the crime scene, and he starts pouring through all of the police reports.

[Jim]

And then I'm looking at the crime scene. I'm looking at Carla, where her body was found. I'm looking at where she was abducted. Her boyfriend that she was out on a date with that night, Rodney. You know, I'm looking at him and reading his statements. Rodney was firsthand witness, but his statements were goofy. Every time he said something, he said something different, like, dramatically different. He initially said he was shot by this guy who abducted Carla right out of the passenger side of his car. Rodney doesn't show up to Carla's house after she was abducted for an hour and a half. And it was like, well, well, where'd he go? Why did it take him so long? And so there has always been a cloud of suspicion around Rodney. And I was suspicious of Rodney, you know, but it's like, well, let's get to the bottom of this. Was it Rodney or was it somebody else?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Meanwhile, Detective Bennett is looking through the evidence boxes in Carla's case.

[Paul Holes]

The original police reports, autopsy, crime scene reports, detectives, notes, interviews, polygraphs, you name it, it was in there.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And is he finding any red flags in the police reports?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Actually, he does. The first thing that he notices is kind of a strange detail about how Carla's body was found.

[Paul Holes]

She was in the culvert. She still had her dress on, had been lifted up. All of her jewelry was intact except for one unusual aspect of the case. Rodney had given Carla a promise ring a couple of months prior to this. And Carla's promise ring was found just outside the culvert in the dirt. Why is this promise ring off of Carla's hand, and why is it in the dirt?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So it's not looking so great for Rodney. There are questions about his story, the timeline, and now the promise ring.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah. And I don't know if you know what a promise ring is.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Not entirely, no.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

It is basically stating your intentions to one day get married. They're still both in high school, and so this is sort of a, like, I am committed to you, Carla, and one day, I will put an engagement ring on your finger.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So they were pretty serious.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yeah.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And I feel like the fact that the promise ring is the only piece of jewelry taken off Carla's body and tossed in the dirt, that could be a message, like maybe they got in a fight or something. Carla takes off the ring or he takes off the ring. I mean, there are all kinds of things that could have happened that could have made Rodney angry that leads him to snapping in some way.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

And as he's reading through all of the original police reports, the case kind of seems to get even stranger.

[Paul Holes]

When Carla's toxicology came back, she had morphine in her system. So the question was, did the killer inject her with morphine? Why is there more morphine in Carlo's body?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Morphine. Wait, that's a whole nother can of worms, then. Because then you wonder whether it was premeditated in some way, which, again, it's like, who besides Rodney or his friends would know where they were going to be in the parking lot that night Unless someone secretly followed them there?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

I told you, this case gets weirder by the minute. Detective Bennett now needs to start his own investigation. And the first. First thing he does is he makes a whole new suspect list.

[Paul Holes]

A lot of individuals had been eliminated because they passed a polygraph. And I think we know today the dependability of these polygraphs especially then, not something that you can really rely on. So if there was no other reason that somebody was eliminated, they went back on my suspect list.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

He ends up with 85 people on his suspect list. And he goes out and he interviews every single person that he can find again, and he collects DNA samples from every single person that he talks to.

[Paul Holes]

We still had Carla's clothing, her dress, her bra, her panties. Rodney's shirt was still in evidence, very bloodied. So it was. That was exciting to see all of that evidence and know that we've got a possibility to get some DNA off of his clothing.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And what clothing do they decide to test?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

They decide to test Carla's bra strap.

[Jim]

And so I ended up having Fort Worth send that sample to a lab that we had used for the Golden State killer case. This Analyst found this semen stain off of Carla's bra strap. There was only one person, one DNA profile in that, and it was enough to be able to search CODIS, the FBI's DNA data bank.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So they run the DNA.

[Jim]

And there's no hit.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Okay, hang on a second. We know the genetic makeup of the mystery person who killed Carla, but because he hasn't been caught for a crime before, his name isn't in the FBI database, so we don't know who he is.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Frustrating. That's why this tool is not great for finding an attacker. It's great for confronting who they are. But this doesn't discourage Paul. He stays optimistic because the DNA on Carla's bra strap was really well preserved and it wasn't contaminated.

[Jim]

It was an amazing sample. 10 nanograms. This is a huge amount of DNA, relatively speaking, for a forensic sample. And I was excited. I was like, let's get that off and do genealogy.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Kind of like in the Golden State Killer case.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Yep. But there's a problem.

[Jim]

They had consumed the entire sample and didn't get a result.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So every time you test DNA, you destroy it in the process. So it's a one shot deal.

[Jim]

My God, you know, the best sample in the world was completely consumed and no result was obtained. And at that point, I thought I had killed the Karla Walker case.

[Paul Holes]

I have to tell you, it was devastating because I had full hope that this lab was going to be able to yield results and do the genetic genealogy and give us a lead on an individual, and it didn't happen. Now you're told the usable DNA that you have is exhausted, it's consumed, and I mean, it's a gut punch.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So does Carla's case go back to being a cold case?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Not exactly. I mean, Paul's show about Carla's murder airs, but they leave it kind of open ended because it's not solved yet. But there are two really important people, a husband and wife, who see the program.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Wait, who are they?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So their names are David and Kristin Mittleman, and they're actually watching the show in bed, at home, on a laptop. And they are just completely struck by this show because they also happen to be the founders of a lab in Texas called othram. Their lab specializes in testing DNA evidence from crime scenes.

[Kristin Mittleman]

We're parents of children around Carla's age at the time, and so it was really difficult to process what it would feel like if you were her family. I think the episode just left me wanting to help. That's what I felt most is can we help?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Foreign.

[Gwen Washington]

I can't tell you how often I hear oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless, unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about NO cd. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapist provides specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's N O C daily.

[Howie Mandel]

Looking to build before next spring? Order now with Morton Buildings and get site Prep savings by October 31st get ahead of winter weather and save big through the end of October on select projects during Morton Buildings Winter Build Sales Event. If you need a garage, a stall barn, a storage building for an rv, boat or other vehicles, a shop for your farm hobbies or car restoration projects or anything in between, take advantage of advantage of this special savings now. Morton Buildings uses quality materials and expert craftsmen with an industry leading warranty to ensure your addition is built stronger, lasts longer and looks better. We'll be working all winter long, but the building spots are limited. With offers this great, why wait? Visit MortonBuildings.com and click Get Started Today. Certain restrictions may apply. Savings offer on new building purchases by October 31, 2024. Building delivery required by April 30, 2026. Contact your local Morton office for more details.

[David Mittleman]

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[Gwen Washington]

I'm Gwen Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week, we don't just tell stories. We drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

After watching the episode, Kristin's husband David calls Paul and he says, look, I've developed this new DNA technology and it's called forensic grade genome sequencing. And I think we can work on Carla's case.

[Kristin Mittleman]

I think that was one of the hardest phone calls I heard because Paul just lost his voice and you could hear he was shaken. And he said, it didn't work. We ruined the case. The evidence was consumed and there's not enough left to test again. And David said, well, how much is left?

[Jim]

And I was like, okay, this is what I've got. I had found a second sample off of Carla's dress, but it was a mixed sample. It had male DNA plus Carla's DNA.

[Kristin Mittleman]

And David said, well, I would like to give it a try. What do you have to lose?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Tell me about this second DNA sample they found on Carla's dress.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Unlike the semen that was found on her bra strap, which was a single source of DNA, her dress has DNA from both the killer and. And from Carla. So you can kind of imagine how that would make it a lot more difficult to get a DNA profile of just the assailant because it's mixed up.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I mean, that would sound almost impossible to me.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Okay, so it gets even harder because the second sample was incredibly tiny. It was just a few nanograms. You can't even see it with the naked eyelashes. So if I touch your arm, Aelin, I'm essentially leaving a couple hundred of my cells on your arm.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Wow.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

We're talking about a handful of cells that they are testing.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

How do they. Wow. I can't imagine even being able to collect that. That's.

[Paul Holes]

And I think Paul was a little concerned about leading us down a bad path because he knew that this was all we had left. But he said, you can call David. You can talk to him. He says he has technology that can work with really small amounts of DNA.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

So you have to remember that Detective Bennett has already been burnt once before when the other lab used up the entire DNA sample when testing it. So he knows that this is his last chance. And if this does not go well, he literally has no DNA evidence left in the case. Before working with Othram, he says, listen, I need to come down there and see the lab for myself.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I mean, I completely understand why he's so nervous. Everything is riding on this. It's high stakes to solve this case.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

It's totally high stakes. And what David and Kristin are doing in their lab is also pretty much brand new. This is a major gamble that he's taking. The easiest way to understand it is that other labs are generally using the technology that's similar to the commercial genealogy sites that we were talking about before. Like, I want to figure out, you know, where my long lost relatives are, that kind of thing.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Right. Where you send in DNA samples, like a mouth swab and then they tell you who you're related to. That kind of thing.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Exactly. And when you do, I don't know if you've ever done that, but that's taking fresh single source DNA. So you swab your mouth, you place it cleanly into a sealed container and you send it off to be analyzed by the lab. And then when it gets to the lab, it's properly stored in a temperature controlled setting under like the perfect circumstances.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I can imagine that's far different from what they're dealing with here.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

Exactly. Because as Kristin Mittleman says, crime scene evidence, especially in Carla Walker's case, is the exact opposite.

[Kristin Mittleman]

Her body was found outdoors. It was found outdoors three days after she was abducted. So there was plant DNA, animal DNA. The DNA at the crime scene had been subjected to heat in Texas cold. And that is degraded DNA. And if you apply methods that are purpose built for fresh samples, you often just miss the answer.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

On top of all that contamination, Carla's case was more than 40 years old. So when they collected the evidence, no one's thinking you can even test for DNA one day. So I'm afraid to ask, but how was it stored?

[Katherine Fenollosa]

In brown paper bags. Oh, I know, but it was actually completely standard at the time. And there's something else that Detective Bennett learns when he visits Kristen and David in their lab. So Codis looks at 20 DNA markers to build a profile, but Kristin says this new method that they've developed looks at like 100,000 up to 1 million DNA markers.

[Kristin Mittleman]

We knew we were Working with the last bit of sample that was left. We were going to be the last chance. So it was a heavy moment for sure. If it didn't work, Carla would never get justice. Her family would never find out the truth. Perpetrator would have gotten away with the crime. The whole community would have been less safe because that perpetrator continued to live in that community. The stakes are huge every single time.

[Katherine Fenollosa]

After his visit to the lab, Detective Bennett decides that this new technology is literally his only hope. So he ships off the final tiny bits of DNA evidence from Carla's dress to the lab. And then he just has to sit back and wait to hear from David Mittleman.

[Paul Holes]

He called us a few days after receiving it and said, hey, it's not 4 nanograms. It's less than that. We were sitting on pins and needles. I remember it was July 4th. I get a phone call, and I see that it's David Middleman calling. So I knew that if he's calling me on a holiday, I knew that he had an answer. And I could not answer the phone fast enough. And David says, well, Jeff, we got a profile from your DNA. It was a goosebump moment.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Next time on a America's Crime Lab.

[Paul Holes]

I'll never forget being able to call Jim and tell him, we arrested the individual who murdered your sister. The case is closed.

[Jim]

I still was unconvinced. You know, we were led based off of a DNA technology, but this was the first time it had been used in this type of investigation. So how much confidence could I, I put into it?

[Kristin Mittleman]

Detectives don't have a scientific background in training, and they're somehow supposed to decipher whether or not someone's telling them the truth or a lie.

[Paul Holes]

One of the first things he did is he lifted up his hands and he goes, I didn't do it.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for colliding. Erica Lantz is our story editor and sound design is by David Woje. Our producing team is Catherine Fenollosa and Jessica Albert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadikidur and David and Kristen Mittleman. And from iHeart, Katrina Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Itor, Nathan Netoski, John Burbank, and the entire team. Team at othram, I'm Aylin Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening. Some dresses are for errands. Some dresses are for parties. And then there's Hill House for dresses that do both effortlessly. Hill House home is the brand behind the viral nap dress known for its signature smocking, ultra flattering fit and comfort that makes it a favorite for just about everyone. There has never been a dress that has been more made for me than the nap dress. You can wear it at home, you can wear it outside, you can wear it anywhere and you can take a nap in it. What more do you need? Get 15% off your first order of a hundred dollars or more at Hillhouse Home.com with code MURDER15. That's MURDER15 for 15% off at HillhouseHome.com goodbye.

[Howie Mandel]

Looking to build before next spring? Order now with Morton Buildings and get site Prep savings by October 31st. Get ahead of winter weather and save big through the end of October on select projects during Morton Buildings Winter Build Sales Event. If you need a garage, a stall barn, a storage building for an rv, boat or other vehicles, a ship shop for your farm hobbies or car restoration projects or anything in between, take advantage of this special savings now. Morton Buildings uses quality materials and expert craftsmen with an industry leading warranty to ensure your addition is built stronger, lasts longer and looks better. We'll be working all winter long, but the building spots are limited. With offers this great, why wait? Visit MortonBuildings.com and click Get Started today. Certain restrictions may apply. Savings offer on new building purchases by October 31, 2025. Building delivery required by April 30, 2026. Contact your local Morton office for more details.

[David Mittleman]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

This is an I Heart podcast.