S1:EP 8 - The Disappeared Part 1

Summary

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America's Crime Lab – S1:EP8: "The Disappeared Part 1" (August 27, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, host Ailin Lance Lesser and producer Kathryn Fenollosa dig into the haunting story of the Fox Hollow Farm case—the second-largest discovery of unidentified human remains at a single crime scene in the U.S., eclipsed only by the World Trade Center site. The episode traces the chilling disappearance of young men from Indianapolis’s gay community in the early 1990s, the eerie secrets of suburban respectability, and the decades-long battle of families and investigators to unearth the truth about serial killer Herb Baumeister. This is Part One of a two-part series unraveling how routine evidence, despair, and relentless family advocacy converged on America’s Crime Lab, Othram.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Mystery of the Disappeared (02:35–04:44)

• Personal Stake: The story opens with a family member suspecting that their own cousin, missing for years, was one of the never-identified victims of Herb Baumeister; this personal connection reignites a cold case (02:35).
• Serial Disappearances: In summer 1993, young men—primarily from the gay community—begin disappearing in Indianapolis, with little public upheaval or police response at the time (03:04–04:44).
• Staggering Crime Scene: The case involves the “second largest amount of unidentified human remains ever discovered at a crime scene in this country. It’s second only to the World Trade Center site.” (04:31, Ailin Lance Lesser)

Suburbia's Dark Side and Baumeister’s Double Life (05:10–09:42)

• Profile of Herb Baumeister: Herb, “a little quirky” son of a doctor, appeared to lead a normal life with his wife Julie and three kids in a wealthy suburb, running a successful thrift store chain ("Save A Lot"), and owning the impressive Fox Hollow estate (05:10–09:42).
• Description of Fox Hollow Farm: “It’s an English Tudor style home... surrounded by these very, very dense woods.” (08:02, Steve Ainsworth)
• Herb’s Lifestyle: While the family spent weekends at a lake house, Herb stayed behind for work, leading to years of this routine.

The Vulnerability and Stigma of the Victims (09:44–13:22)

• Invisible Missing Persons: Disappearances mostly went unnoticed by law enforcement and media. Young men often used aliases in bars and feared social or professional repercussions for being outed (09:44–11:55).
• Social Context: “These bars... where they could go to feel safe,” but the community was simultaneously in the shadow of the AIDS crisis—making tracking people down more challenging (11:20, Steve Ainsworth).
• Systemic Neglect: “I think they would have been connected sooner if it was a different community. I think that it kind of fell on deaf ears for a while until these remains started showing up.” (25:49, Steve Ainsworth)

The Shocking Discovery (13:22–15:04, 17:57–19:08)

• Skull Found by a Child: The case breaks open when Herb’s son Eric finds a human skull in the woods—Herb claims it was a medical specimen from his father, an explanation Julie initially accepts (13:39–18:41).
  • “Eric comes running into the house and he is holding a fully intact human skull.” (13:59, Steve Ainsworth)
• Julie's Trust and Denial: “Herb was a great dad... super involved... completely present father.” (19:08, Ailin Lance Lesser)

Inside the Fox Hollow ‘House of Secrets’ (20:39–24:15)

• Mark Goodyear’s Encounter: Mark Goodyear tells police of meeting “Brian Smart” at a downtown gay bar, being brought to a mansion with an indoor pool surrounded by mannequins. Mark dodges a spiked drink, survives multiple strangling attempts, and ultimately leaves alive (20:39–24:15).
  • Memorable Detail: “Mannequins are set up around the pool area, and they're posed, so it looks like they're lounging by the water.” (21:09, Ailin Lance Lesser)
• Aliasing and Evasion: Police struggle to discover the real identity and location of “Brian Smart” as Mark can’t recall the address.

Piecing the Case Together (25:07–30:22)

• Another Potential Accomplice: An additional tip hints at someone else luring men to the house, but police still lack broader support and urgency.
• Breakthrough: Finally, a year later, someone notes the suspect’s car’s license plate. It leads them to Herb Baumeister’s car, shattering his cover as an average family man (30:06–30:22).

The Search and Macabre Scale of the Crime (31:37–39:24)

• Police and Julie Connect the Dots: Police question Julie, who recalls the found skull and other odd moments. Her marriage, Herb’s mental health history, and past hospitalizations come to light. She ultimately lets police search the property (31:37–33:28).
• Excavation Begins: Forensic teams descend, grid the woods, and find hundreds of red flags, “almost like someone has taken a handful of bird seed and just tossed it in the woods… It was that enormous.” (34:14–35:07, Ailin Lance Lesser)
  • “A sea of red flags.” (35:03, Co-host)
• Graphic Finds: Detectives find bones, shotgun shells, handcuffs—one with “an arm bone sticking through it” (35:30, Steve Ainsworth), and sites where bodies were burned and crushed in a “never ending map of just burnt, crushed, scattered human remains.” (39:06, Ailin Lance Lesser)
• Detectives’ Horror: “I have never personally seen anything like that. With that amount of remains and the condition that they're in. I've just never seen anything like that.” (35:30, Steve Ainsworth)

Tension and Uncertainty (39:26–41:33)

• Family in Jeopardy: With Baumeister at the family’s lake house with their son, Julie panics about her children’s safety; the police response is slow and cautious (39:31–40:14).
  • “It's like, what could he do to our son? Could he hold him hostage? Could he hurt him?” (39:49, Co-host)
• Complexity and Frustration: “It's not as simple as Herb Baumeister took these people out to his house, sexually assaulted him and killed him and dumped him in the woods. It's much more complicated.” (40:18, Steve Ainsworth)

The Struggle for Justice (40:36–41:33)

• Case Stagnates: Next week’s preview reveals a familiar narrative—authorities willing to let the case stall, families and activists pushing to keep it alive.
  • “I was pissed because it seemed as though the investigation shut down. They were done. We're not going to try to identify these people.” (40:39, Steve Ainsworth)
  • “That was one of those soul searching moments that, okay, you've agreed to help. You're committed to help. Now how in the heck are you going to do this?” (41:15, Narrator)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Abnormality of Serial Murder:
  “You know the saying of like a car crash, everyone sort of slows down to watch because it defies normal human behavior...what makes these people tick?” (04:06, Ailin Lance Lesser)

• On Stigma and Coverage:
  “These are gay men…a subculture. It wouldn't be reported like that 18-year-old coed goes missing from Indy…The public was really not aware of what was going on.” (12:38, Steve Ainsworth)

• On the Size of the Crime Scene:
  “This case is also unique because it involves the second largest amount of unidentified human remains ever discovered at a crime scene in this country. It's second only to the World Trade Center site.” (04:31, Ailin Lance Lesser)

• On the Initial Discovery:
  “Eric comes running into the house and he is holding a fully intact human skull.” (13:59, Steve Ainsworth)

• On Surreal Horror:
  “Mannequins are set up around the pool area...In the bar area, even more mannequins...posed so it looks like they're having drinks and talking.” (21:09, Ailin Lance Lesser)

• On Police Realization:
  “It almost seems like the investigation ends before it began.” (24:30, Ailin Lance Lesser)

• On Forensic Discovery:
  “There's a virtual graveyard…a full hip bone, leg bones, a lower jawbone with the teeth still intact.” (37:13, Ailin Lance Lesser)

• Detective’s Reaction:
  “I have never personally seen anything like that. With that amount of remains and the condition that they're in. I've just never seen anything like that.” (35:30, Steve Ainsworth)

• On Systemic Failure:
  “I think they would have been connected sooner if it was a different community. I think that it kind of fell on deaf ears for a while until these remains started showing up.” (25:49, Steve Ainsworth)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:35] – Opening personal story and connection to victims
• [04:31] – Staggering magnitude of the remains found
• [05:10–09:42] – Baumeister family background and Fox Hollow Farm
• [13:22–14:35] – Discovery of the human skull
• [20:39–24:15] – Mark Goodyear’s testimony and “Brian Smart”
• [30:06–31:37] – License plate breakthrough; police approach Baumeister
• [33:42–35:07] – "Sea of red flags": the dig and scale of remains
• [36:36] – Discovery of handcuffs with a human arm bone
• [37:13–38:00] – Virtual graveyard along the creek bed
• [39:31–40:18] – Julie’s panic, Baumeister at the lake house, police inaction
• [40:36–41:33] – Frustrations with the stalled investigation

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Tone and Style

The episode is told with empathy and urgency, framed by the hosts’ awe, horror, and compassion for the victims, families, and investigators. Detectives’ perspectives emphasize real, lived horror and systemic failure: the case’s progress is always tinged with frustration about the neglect of marginalized victims and the persistent, sometimes lonely struggle of those seeking answers.

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Note:
This is Part 1 of the Fox Hollow Farm story. Expect further revelations, Othram’s forensic work, and family-driven efforts for justice in the next episode.

Transcript

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

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[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

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[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

It dawned on me that my cousin's a possible victim of Herb Bowmeister and he's never been identified. He was a pretty fun going guy, loved to party, always the center of attention. Jeff didn't know how to help me at first, but he told me he would. And he busted this case wide open.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

In the summer of 1993, something strange started happening. Young men began to disappear. One by one. Friends and family didn't know what happened to them, only that they vanished. The truth was far worse than anyone could have imagined. And the crime scene was so large that investigators were overwhelmed. Back then, police had clues that they were onto a serial killer, but the investigation was dropped for nearly 30 years. Families were left with no answers. But that changed when one man looking for his cousin made a phone call. And more bodies turned up. This is America's Crime Lab. I'm Ailin Lance Lesser. Producer Kathryn Fenollosa is here and Catherine. I have to admit, this case has me intrigued.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

While there is something I think about serial killers, it's like, you know the saying of like a car crash, everyone sort of slows down to watch because it defies normal human behavior. And so maybe there's a part, at least for me, that's like, oh my gosh, what makes these people tick? Because it's so abnormal.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah, like how is it even possible?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

This case is also unique because it involves the second largest amount of unidentified human remains ever discovered at a crime scene in this country. It's second only to the World Trade center site.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Oh, my God, that's. So this is a big deal. I mean, a mass grave, basically.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

This one actually gave me nightmares and kept me up. So this case, a lot of people refer to it as Fox Hollow Farm or the Fox Hollow Murders.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yes.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Do you know of it?

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I know a little bit about it.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

This takes place in the 90s in a suburb of Indianapolis, Indiana, just north of the city. About 45 minutes. And there is a couple, Julie and Herbmeister. And they meet at the University of Indiana. Herb is known as A Little Quirky. For example, he and a friend co owned a used hearse as a car. And people would just sort of laugh it off, like, oh, that's Herb. He's a little eccentric, but very nice guy.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Okay, so maybe a little quirky, a little different.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah, he was the son of a doctor, so maybe he was used to being around medical stuff and not Spooked by it. So they end up getting married. And Julie goes to teach at a high school. Herb gets a job as a clerk at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. Julie says she was drawn to Herb because of his good looks. He was sort of tall and skinny with dark hair. She said he was funny and just easy to get along with. She said she always had a good time with him. They eventually have three kids and he finds a job at a thrift store, like a used clothing store. And he likes this job. And so he and Julie have a joint dream to open up their own thrift store. They borrow money from Herb's mom and they open up their first store.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I love that they open up a store as a team.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah. And I called Steve Ainsworth to get some of the backstory. So Steve spent his career as a detective in Boulder, Colorado. He worked homicides and major crimes, and now he works with Othram, America's crime lab.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Okay, so what does he do there?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

He's a law enforcement liaison, which means it's his job to work with local authorities when they bring evidence to Othram for advanced DNA testing. And Steve says Herb and Julie named their store Save A Lot.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

And it was basically like a Goodwill or a Salvation army where he would take used clothing, used appliances, all used furniture, all of that. He would put them in these stores and he would sell it. Well, it became very popular and he made quite a bit of money. So he was able to purchase Fox Hollow.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Fox Hollow is the property that Herb and Julie buy, and it's in a wealthy suburb of Indianapolis. It's known for being a very conservative area. It's pretty, with lots of horse farms and rolling hills. You kind of get the picture.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Wow. So Herb and Julie must be doing really well.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

They are. Steve Ainsworth has actually visited the estate and I asked him to describe it.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

It's an English Tudor style home with a carriage barn off to the side. And it's a huge garage. And then it's surrounded by these very, very dense woods.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

The house has a long sort of winding driveway, and there are a number of outbuildings. There's a horse stable, I believe there's like a three car garage.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

The house itself, it is big. I mean, it's really big. It has three levels, counting the basement. But it's really dark inside.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

The house is really impressive. There's like a real dark wood library and a huge kitchen. There is an indoor pool.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Oh, my goodness.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah, it's in the basement. And there is also a bar area with Like a legit bar. Like, one or two bartenders could be behind there. And then there are doors that go out to a back patio, and from the back patio, there's a green lawn. At the time when Herb and Julie bought this, behind the house was a very dense wooded area, and the woods came up pretty close to the back of the house. So in the summers, Julie and the kids head about 100 miles north of Fox Hollow Farm, where the family has a place on a lake.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Wow. They're living the life.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah, they're doing really well. And I think the place might be in Herb's family.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Herb spends essentially Monday through Friday at home going to work, and then on the weekends, he'll go join them. For the most part, they do this, you know, for a number of years, and this is sort of their lifestyle.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Where is this going?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Around 1993, something starts happening in Indianapolis, and it's a little bit under the radar, but young men start disappearing. And a lot of these men are part of the gay community who frequent some of the gay bars in Indianapolis.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And at the start, it's not reported on the news, and there aren't, like, big search parties being organized to look for these men. It's almost more like little murmurings at the bars. You know, like people are saying, like, hey, have you seen John? Have you seen Richard? And after a while, missing persons posters start showing up in some of these bars. They're made by family and friends with just like, a picture of the person and some description about what they look like. And pretty soon, people in the gay community are starting to get worried about what's happening, and there's some concern. Like, are all of these related?

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah, it sounds like maybe they're being targeted in some way.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

These bars were located in downtown Indianapolis, which in the 90s was a very conservative area. And it was also a 9 to 5 city. Steve says when it emptied out at the end of a workday and became a ghost town, the bars these men went to came to life.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

They were disappearing from these known gay clubs, places where they could go to feel safe.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And this is also during the AIDS crisis.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

You would see somebody frequently, and it wasn't always clear that they were sick. And then all of a sudden, they stopped showing up at the clubs, and no one really knows why. I mean, it was just a very fragile and vulnerable community.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Absolutely. And, I mean, that kind of makes sense that maybe it's harder to track people down because of that.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah. And it was also pretty common for people to go by a different name at these clubs. I mean they were worried, you know, if their true identity came out and they were found out to be G that they could lose their jobs. But in the summer of 93, five men who frequented this gay nightclub scene go missing. In 94, there are three more. 95, there are two more. Detectives from that time period will say that especially in this community, there were not a lot of missing person reports being made.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

And you have to remember back in the 80s and even the mid-90s, it was really underground. These are gay men. So it's like it's a subculture. It wouldn't be reported like that 18 year old coed goes missing from Indy or something like that. I don't think the public was really aware of what was going on.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah, that's the thing with stigma or I don't know, just prejudice in general. It's not only that people have to directly be victimized by it, but then it's like people don't feel safe to even ask for help or seek out resources and who knows if they will get the support when they do ask.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So more and more of these posters start showing up of these men disappearing. Then one day, Julie Baumeister is at her house. Her 13 year old son Eric has a friend over and they're playing outside.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

Baumeister told his kids not to go into the woods around the house because they could catch all kinds of diseases, get sick, there was all kinds of bugs and he just scared him not to go out into the woods. But his son and I think a friend of his son went into the woods and they were just kind of looking around and exploring.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

The next thing Julie knows is that Eric comes running into the house and he is holding a fully intact human skull.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.

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[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

So Eric, their son, comes into the house holding a human skull. And I'm really hoping his mom, Julie, freaks out, because, I mean, if someone came into my house with a skull from my yard, I. I would go berserk.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

She's like, oh, my God, is that really real? How could that have been behind the house? So she takes it from Eric, and when Herb gets home from work that night, she says, herb, look at what the kids found.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

And when she confronted Herb about it, he said it was left over from when his dad was a doctor and it was an anatomy specimen that his dad had used before. And that's how he explained it away.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And Julie thinks, oh, okay. I mean, that's a legitimate explanation.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Huh? I mean, I guess it's her husband, so she must have a level of trust with him also, though. I don't know. I just. That would really be jarring to me, and I feel like I would need to call the police pretty much right away.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Well, there don't seem to be any other, like, red flags for her. She does say that through their entire marriage, Herb was a great dad. Like, he was super involved. When it came time to select a preschool or help with homework, he was like a completely present father. The other thing, too, is that they lived on 18 acres. And as I was saying, it's like, really dense woods. I mean, they were certainly finding, like, animal bones back there. Maybe this had actually been back there for a long time. So it was surprising and shocking to her. But Herb was able to calm all of her fears, and she, like, sort of put it out of her mind. These men keep disappearing. A guy named Stephen Hale is last seen in April of 94. Alan Broussard is last seen at one of the gay bars in June. In July, Roger Alan Godet helps his mom put together a bench. He plays with his kitten, and then he goes out to a bar. That's the last time he was seen in public. In 1996, a group of families of these missing men hire a private detective because they're not getting any answers from police. And Steve Ainsworth says that leads investigators to someone, a guy by the name.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

Of Mark Goodyear, who frequented these clubs. And he had all of these stories he was telling to get this really going.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So Mark Goodyear meets with police, and he says, you know, yeah, I met this guy, Brian Smart, at a gay bar, and he invited me back to his house. We went down to the basement where he has an indoor pool, and there's a bar. And it was a little weird, so there were a lot of mannequins.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Stop.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And the mannequins are set up around the pool area, and they're posed, so it looks like they're, like, lounging by the water. And in the bar area, there are even more mannequins. These ones are dressed in clothing, and they're posed, so it looks like they're, like, having drinks and talking.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

No.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And the pool area is really foggy and misty. And Mark says the whole scene has this really eerie vibe to it. Mark says, brian offers me a drink from the bar, and I just kind of had a bad feeling about it. So I make an excuse, and I go to the bathroom, and Aelin, I think he pours it out and comes back with water.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Quick thinking.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And I was worried that there were drugs in the drink. Anyway, we swam in the pool, and Mark says, you know, I wasn't really into this. This guy Brian kept coming up behind me one time with a hose, putting it around my neck, another time with a belt.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Whoa.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

A piece of rope.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

That is kind of scary in that he thinks he's being drugged, and it sounds like he's coming up behind him, that he's not getting consent, because I do get in the, like, BDSM community or something. Consent is a huge part. And it sounds like that's not what was happening here.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

No. And Mark said, you know, he was so persistent that had I been drugged and a little sleepy and not fully aware of what was going on, he could have overpowered me. I mean, I would not have been able to resist what he was doing.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

It's terrifying.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Then it's a little confusing, because then Mark Goodyear goes on to say, but, you know, we engaged in consensual sex. Even though he's now thought that this guy drugged him, he's a little weirded out by these mannequins in the house. And, you know, this guy Brian has essentially tried to strangle him a few times.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Right.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

But Mark spends the night.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Okay.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And the next day, Brian drives him back to Indianapolis. It is a little weird. Like, I would think he would want to get the heck out of there. Yeah.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I also get, though, how if you're in a scary situation, maybe, and he is your ride. This is before car share services. You know, it. It might be hard to get out of there.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

True.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I don't know. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt that if you're in a scary situation. You just kind of deal with it and get out when you can. And maybe that was just what worked.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. And so Mark does mention to the police, you know, I felt like this wasn't the first time this guy had had an evening like this. And I honestly felt like if he wanted to, he could have murdered me. Like, there was a very thin line between fetishy sex and something much more dangerous.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

This is giving me the chills a little bit. Just the idea that he was able to leave. And I don't know if this is going where I think it's going. I mean, maybe he narrowly escaped.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So the police can't figure out who this Brian Smart is. They do look into it, but it almost seems like the investigation ends before it began, if that makes sense. Clearly it was an alias. Mark Goodyear couldn't tell them where the house was. He couldn't give them any description of like, oh, yeah, we took this highway to that highway and we got off on this road. At one point, another witness comes forward and he says a man approaches him at a bar with an offer.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

Hey, I've got this really, really wealthy friend. He's got this great house. He's got an indoor swimming pool. You've got to come and see it. Baumeister did not take him out there, and he had this encounter with this person who took him out there.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Wait, so someone else is inviting men back to Herb's house? So that suggests there are other people involved. Are the police putting it together that this could be a serial killer or killers targeting the gay community?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

To be honest, I mean, back then there just weren't a lot of resources devoted to an investigation, and Steve says it's because these men were gay.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

I think they would have been connected sooner if it was a different community. I think that it kind of fell on deaf ears for a while until these remains started showing up.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week, we don't just tell stories. We drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.

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[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So a year goes by and someone meets a man who resembles Brian Smart. They write down the license plate of his car and give it to police. Cops run the plate and the car doesn't belong to Brian Smart. It belongs to a man named Herb Baumeister.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Oh, the guy with the big house?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

The big house with the wife and three kids. The guy that goes to church with his wife and kids. Who owns the Save A Lot stores? Herb Baumeister. So the police go and pay him a visit at one of his stores, and the detectives say he seems really strange. He's very nervous. He's almost like jumping out of his skin. The detectives tell him that they know about his secret lifestyle of frequenting the gay nightclub scene in Indianapolis. He kind of freaks out. He says nobody knows about this. He's clearly panicked that this news is going to get out, which could be.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Just that maybe he feels like he'll lose his family or his shop, his livelihood. I mean, for that reason alone, it's reasonable that he's nervous.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

They do ask to search his property. He says no. Now, they don't have any actual evidence of anything, so they don't get a search warrant. The police then decide to go to the house. And the day that they go, Herb's wife Julie is there. She's like, why are police coming to my property? She initially doesn't let them look around, but in talking to detectives, she does start to think about a few things that seemed off. One is the skull that her son had found in the woods while playing with a friend. Yeah, and when police ask her more about that, she's like, yeah, but I mentioned it to Herb and, you know, he reminded me his dad was an anesthesiologist. Probably used it for medical research. Herb said he had stored it in the garage that maybe raccoons had got into the garage and dragged it out into the woods.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I'm glad she shared that with the police, because I don't think I would buy his explanation, but that's just me.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

She does explain to police that their marriage is rocky. They sort of separated a couple of times and then got back together. I will say that shortly after they got married, Herb's father suggested or put into action Herb being committed to a hospital for severe depression. And he stayed about a month. Julie was in full support of that because she said he was really hurting and that he needed help.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Oh, wow.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

He was having some issues in his marriage as well as the businesses and that they kind of bled over into each other. They just kind of mounted on each other.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Steve Ainsworth says the day detectives visit the house, Herb was living elsewhere. Eventually, Julie allows them to look on the property, and she leads them out to the area where the boys found the human skull. And the police walk out there.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

They were just really just feet away from the house. And these woods are incredibly dense and a really good place to hide a body.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And they find some bone fragments, human bones, what they think are human bone fragments. So all of a sudden, this is like a bigger situation. Detectives bring in a forensic anthropologist from the University of Indianapolis who brings in a whole team of people to search, and they literally descend on the property looking at photos from this time. They set up a grid pattern almost like an archaeological dig. And anytime somebody finds a bone fragment, they put a small red flag in the ground. There are literally hundreds of red flags, almost like someone has taken a handful of bird seed and just tossed it in the woods. And then you put a flag every place where those seeds have landed. Like, it was that enormous.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

My God, a sea of red flags.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

A sea of red flags.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I mean, I don't even know what to say. That's. That's a horrific picture. I mean, especially because each one of those flags represents a piece of actual human remains.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

I have never personally seen anything like that. With that amount of remains and the condition that they're in. I've just never seen anything like that.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

You know, you've got the indoor pool, and there are sliding glass doors that lead out to a patio, and there's an outdoor table with chairs, and it's set up for, like, grilling. And then there's a little bit of lawn beyond the patio. Like, not much. I mean, enough for kids to, like, kick a soccer ball around. And just beyond that starts the woods. So they are, like, feet within the Woods. When they start finding these bone fragments, the police start walking deeper into the woods. And as they're walking, they're finding more and more. And they're actually finding like a foot bone, a leg bone. They find shotgun shells. They find a pair of handcuffs.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

We've found handcuffs in the woods. One of them had an arm bone sticking through it.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

As if someone just kind of sat there and decayed. Oh, my. Without even much hiding or anything. Ugh.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

They end up searching the area behind the house for two weeks, and they recover thousands of remains. I think it was an 18 acre property. So they don't search all of it, but they sort of section off three different areas that they're focusing their search in. And while they're searching in one of these areas, there's a fence that divides the Fox Hollow property from the neighbors. And from the other side of the fence, two young men show up and. And say, hey, we found something over on our edge of the property that you might want to see. The police go over there. There's a creek bed. On either side of the creek bed, it is like a virtual graveyard. There are ribs sticking out of the mud. There's a full hip bone. What leg bones, a lower jawbone with the teeth still intact.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

I mean, no wonder this has been keeping you up at night. I mean, this is. I feel like even hearing about this, I'm in some weird nightmare.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

One of the detectives said it's almost like somebody took a skeleton and just started pulling, you know, limbs off of it and just like tossing them into this creek. Like they aren't buried. You know, no one's taken any effort to, like, hide any of this or bury any of the remains. Yeah.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

It's just so bold, and it's like someone who's been getting away with this for a long time and knows they can get away with it.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So police keep walking through the woods, and Steve says they find another site.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

There's a burn pit which is very near to where the skull and the skeleton were found. Those were obviously burned. So they're getting burned and crushed really, to obliterate any identification.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

It's almost like a never ending map of just burnt, crushed, scattered human remains over this property. And police start wondering, like, we don't even know how many victims were even. Yeah, like, how many people are here.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

That was my first thought.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Yeah.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

What does the wife think?

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

So she's starting to panic.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

And she's home with two of her kids, but her son is actually spending time with Herb right now. And Herb is at the family's lake house.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Yeah. Oh, my God. How terrifying. It's like, what could he do to our son? Could he hold him hostage? Could he hurt him? Might they run away together and never to be found again? I mean, I would imagine, shouldn't police go up there and try to talk to him or follow him or maybe arrest him with.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

You'd think that's what would happen, but Steve says it doesn't.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

It's not as simple as Herb Baumeister took these people out to his house, sexually assaulted him and killed him and dumped him in the woods. It's not that simple. It's much more complicated.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Next time on America's Crime Lab.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

I was pissed because it seemed as though the investigation shut down. They were done. We're not going to try to identify these people.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

If you have a suspect in mind.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Or if that person is in codis, you can confirm their identity. But unfortunately for most crimes, you don't have an actual suspect. You don't know who might have committed the crime. And that was something we couldn't live with. And I said, hey, I hope you don't get upset with me, but I called the Hamilton county coroner's office to get this case reopened. That was one of those soul searching moments that, okay, you've agreed to help. You're committed to help. Now how in the heck are you going to do this?

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is by David Woje. Our producing team is Kathryn Fenollosa, Emily Forman and Jessica Alpert. Our executive executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadigidur and David and Kristen Mittleman. And from iHeart, Katrina Norvell and Ally Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Etosky, John Burbank and the entire team at Othram. I'm Ailin Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

Foreign.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

Fox one is now live. It's the new way to stream all your Fox favorites all in one place. That means NFL Sundays and college football games, breaking news with the Fox voices you trust and your favorite show streamed as they happen. So nothing gets spoiled. With Fox one, you get it all live. Edge of your seat plays, jaw dropping moments and that feeling like you're right there in the action. Start your seven day trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one we live for life. Streaming now.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

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[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

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[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

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[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

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[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

You think you know Snap Judgment? Yes, it's on npr. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper. Stranger, wilder. We've taken you places at the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambi's, the Webbies, the Gracies, all stood up.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

For welcome to the Podcast hall of fame.

[Commercial / Advertisement Voice]

Glenn Washington.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap Judgment from KQED every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

To you, my darling. No, to you.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

The Roses were living the dream.

[Commercial / Advertisement Voice]

More champagne for me, Pete.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

Until it all came crashing down.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

He got fired.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

Buy it from the director of Meet the Parents.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

You're a failure.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

Women don't like that.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

If you need a shoulder or an.

[Co-host / Interviewer (possibly Erica Lance or Kathryn Fenollosa)]

Inner thigh to lean on this Friday.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

I just want the house.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

We want everything. Wow. Stop and see the roses.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

These people.

[Glenn Washington (Host of Snap Judgment)]

The Roses. Rated R. Under 17. Nine minute without parent.

[Steve Ainsworth (Detective / Law Enforcement Liaison)]

In theaters everywhere. Friday.

[Narrator / Host (possibly Ailin Lance Lesser)]

This is an I Heart Podcast.