The Disappeared Part 2

Summary

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America's Crime Lab — "The Disappeared Part 2"

Podcast: America's Crime Lab
Host: iHeartPodcasts & Kaleidoscope
Episode: The Disappeared Part 2
Date: September 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This deeply investigative episode continues the harrowing story of the Fox Hollow Farm murders—one of the most prolific and mishandled serial killer cases in American history. Through the lens of modern forensic science, family persistence, and the recent efforts at Othram—"America’s Crime Lab"—the episode explores how decades-old failures are being challenged, and new hope is found for countless unidentified victims. The story centers on the efforts to restore the identities and dignity of those lost, and the long-lasting impact on their families and communities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Discovery and Mishandling of Fox Hollow Farm Remains

• 1996 Discovery: Thousands of human remains unearthed at Fox Hollow, property of wealthy business owner Herb Baumeister.
• Failure to Investigate: Despite the grisly evidence, authorities did not arrest or surveil Baumeister, citing lack of resources and evidence.
  • “One of the excuses that law enforcement makes at the time is, well, all of our resources were at the Fox Hollow farm, securing the property and overseeing this whole search of these remains that we really didn't have the manpower to surveil him.” (Aylin Lance Lesser, 04:44)
• Herb’s Flight and Death: Herb leaves for Canada, is found dead of an apparent suicide days later. No confession or admission of the murders in his final note; police close the case.

Initial Neglect Toward Victims’ Identification

• Victims Overlooked: Remains are sent to the University of Indianapolis; families are told they must pay for DNA testing if they want answers.
  • "They say if you want to know if your loved one was killed at Fox Hollow, you can pay to have your DNA tested against the remains. Essentially like, we're all done here." (Aylin Lance Lesser, 09:03)
• Community Trauma Exposed: Stigma against the victims, many of whom were gay men, contributed to the lack of urgency, care, and resources.

Family Tenacity Reopens the Case

• Eric Pranger's Quest: In 2022, Eric Pranger, cousin of long-missing presumed victim Alan Livingston, reignites the investigation after contacting coroners to identify Alan before Eric's cancer-stricken mother passes away.
  • “I ask him to bring my cousin home to his mother before she passes away. And she had terminal cancer. And that was enough right there to get Jeff listening.” (Eric Pranger, 15:26)

The Role of a Determined Coroner

• Jeff Jellison Steps In: New coroner Jeff Jellison discovers the sheer volume of unprocessed remains.
  • "They said, just what do we have there? And she said, 10,000 bone and bone fragments...and I said, what have I just gotten into?" (Jeff Jellison, 19:59)
• Dedication to Identification: Jellison partners with Othram and other agencies, collecting DNA from relatives, testing fragments, and advocating publicly.
  • “It doesn't matter if you had the staff or not. It doesn't matter. If law enforcement had the time or resources you have to make it happen. These are people, these are families. And you can't say, well, we just can't do it.” (Jeff Jellison, 21:25)

Advances in Forensic DNA and the Breakthrough

• Modern Testing: With Othram’s help, a systematic identification process is built for thousands of damaged and commingled bones.
• First Identification in Decades: Alan Livingston becomes the first victim positively identified via DNA after 30 years, providing closure to his family.
  • “I was like, when can I come get him? Can I come right now?...It was pretty emotional. It was exciting too, to be able to shake Jeff's hand after all that hard work.” (Eric Pranger, 30:01)

Ongoing Investigation and New Challenges

• Scale of the Crime: Possible 56 victims; only single intact skull recovered—Herb likely took extreme measures to destroy evidence.
• Theories about Accomplices: Some witnesses describe other men luring victims to Fox Hollow and assisting during murders, widening the potential scope of the crime.
  • “To have had two witnesses that came forward and told us about a young man that was shot. And he was shot by Baumeister, but he was being held and was possibly being handcuffed by two or three other people. And their accounts are almost identical.” (Narrator / Interviewee, 38:04)

The Impact of Victim Identification and Technology

• Genetic Genealogy’s Power: Identification not only provides closure but uncovers more about missing people, their stories, and possibly the wider web of crime.
  • “When you hide a victim, disfigure a victim, destroy a victim. And there isn't that victim identity. It's really difficult to work that crime. It's immediately stalled.” (Kristin Mittleman, 39:22)
• Emotional Toll on Forensic Teams: Even expert scientists struggle with the trauma and scale of these cases.

Community Responsibility and Compassion

• Caring for Victims’ Families: Jellison ensures remains are treated with dignity (offering free cremations and memorials if families can't themselves).
  • “They gave them paper sacks with raw bones in them. I mean, damn it, are we so lacking in compassion that we're just going to hand them a raw bone?” (Jeff Jellison, 40:08)
• Appeal to the Public: Jeff encourages all with missing loved ones to submit DNA samples, regardless of where or when they disappeared.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• The scale and horror of the crime
  “This is the second largest case of unidentified human remains in this country, second only to the World Trade Center.”
  (Jeff Jellison, 21:25)

• Urgency vs. Bureaucracy
  “I just think about urgency, you know, the bones will be there...Not to slow that down, but it does seem like a priority to get information beyond the bones. Yes, while you can, because people can move, whereas the yard is going to stay there.”
  (Co-host, ~05:10)

• On institutional failure
  “How is like a random person supposed to fund that?”
  (Co-host, 09:16)

• Family grief and persistence
  “Sharon has kept a landline all of these years because that was the number that Allen would call her on. So if he calls…She's like, I'm not giving up the number.”
  (Aylin Lance Lesser, 14:40)

• Importance of victim identity in solving crimes “Once the victims start getting identified, then it's pretty easy to connect who was connected to all of these victims.”
  (Kristin Mittleman, 39:22)

• On the emotional toll of forensic work “Some of these cases are so horrifying that you don't sleep. There are some that you can't. You just. You can't. And think about how many people. We're human...But the emotions that come with each one of these cases are not. It's horrifying.”
  (Kristin Mittleman, 33:26)

• A call to action
  “If you have a missing person, call me. I don't care where they're missing from. I don't care when they went missing. You never know. Contact law enforcement, make sure that they take your DNA.”
  (Jeff Jellison, 44:58)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:36 — Initial Fox Hollow remains discovery; case background
• 03:49 – 05:10 — Police inaction, resource excuses, and missed opportunities
• 06:14 – 07:08 — Herb’s videotapes, suspicions of further evidence
• 07:56 – 10:07 — Case closure after Herb’s suicide; failure to identify victims
• 10:42 – 13:29 — Eric Pranger’s determination, Alan Livingston’s backstory
• 19:59 – 21:25 — Coroner Jeff Jellison realizes the overwhelming scale; commits to thorough identification
• 25:37 – 29:44 — Identification of Alan Livingston; emotional family closure
• 31:31 – 32:55 — Ongoing discoveries; destruction and burning of remains
• 34:09 – 36:44 — Challenges of forensic genealogy; innovative DNA methods; second identification
• 38:04 – 39:22 — Accomplices and the value of identification
• 40:08 – 41:10 — Former insensitivity toward families; increased compassion now
• 44:58 – 45:50 — Jeff Jellison’s final plea to families of the missing

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Additional Insights and Reflections

• Stigma and Social Neglect: The fate of victims from marginalized communities is doubly tragic—first in life, then in the apathy surrounding their disappearances.
• Technology as a Force for Justice: Forensic genetic genealogy gives long-awaited hope to victims’ families—sometimes decades after the fact.
• Ongoing Effort: The case remains open and urgent, with many more victims still to be identified and critical questions of culpability and accomplices unresolved.

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For Listeners New to the Story

This episode lays bare both the heartbreaking failures and recent redemptive efforts in identifying the “disappeared” of Fox Hollow Farm. Through emotional family testimony, dogged forensic work, and a new era of accountability, "America’s Crime Lab" both pays tribute to the lost and spotlights the ongoing pursuit of truth and justice.

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Transcript

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

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[Glen Washington]

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[Jeff Jellison]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

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[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

It was clearly skeletal remains of a human. It makes me wonder what would happen if his son had not made that discovery. I mean, would there be a whole bunch of skulls and skeletons out in the woods? You have all of these fragments. How do we figure out who these people are?

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

In 1996, authorities discovered thousands of human remains on the property of a wealthy Indianapolis business owner. The more investigators dug into the wooded grounds, the more they found femurs, jawbones, ribs sticking out of a muddy embankment. Police were in the midst of one of the most prolific serial killers of our time. But the discovery of human remains didn't lead to an arrest. It didn't even lead to an in depth investigation of who died on the property. In fact, it took nearly 30 years to reopen the case. But even now, does anyone really know the truth of what happened at Fox Hollow Farm? Foreign I'm Aelin Lance Lesser and this is America's Crime Lab. This is part two of the Fox Hollow story. If you missed part one, you'll want to go back and listen. Producer Catherine Fenollosa is here. And when we left the story, police were digging up hundreds of human bones at Fox Hollow. Meanwhile, Herb Baumeister was away at the family lake house with one of his kids.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And his wife, Julie is worried about what he might do because Herb knows that police have found human remains behind the family home. So Julie gets an emergency restraining order to have her son brought back to her.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Honestly, I still can't wrap my head around why the police haven't brought in Herb for questioning. Or at least have him under surveillance.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You would think, right? Based on everything that they found on the property, the police do go with this emergency order in their hand. They go up to the lake house and they see Herb and they talk to him and they say, we need to bring your son Eric back. And he says, okay. And they leave. They don't question him.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

So Herb is just freed. They don't question him.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Nope. What.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What's the thinking there?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

One of the excuses that law enforcement makes at the time is, well, all of our resources were at the Fox Hollow farm, securing the property and overseeing this whole search of these remains that we really didn't have the manpower to surveil him. And we didn't really have enough evidence to bring him in for questioning.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I just think about urgency, you know, the bones will be there. They're continuing the search. Not to slow that down, but it does seem like a priority. To get information beyond the bones. Yes, while you can, because people can move, whereas the yard is going to stay there.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So Herb is left by himself now. And Detective Steve Ainsworth says that's when Herb starts to panic.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

And it was right after that that Baumeister realizes that the jig is up. And then he heads to Canada.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

So it seems like he's on the run.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Within a few days, police in Ontario, Canada, see a guy sleeping in his car. And they go to talk to him, you know, to let him know that he's got to move along. But then they notice something in his car.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

They reported there was at least One box full of videotapes in the backseat of his car.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Videotapes? This is the mid-90s, so I'm picturing, like, old school VHS tapes.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, exactly. I think Herb was known for filming a lot of family events. And Steve says evidence photos taken at Fox Hollow show that there was video equipment in the house.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

There were two video recorders, one on top of each other, plugged into each other so that he could dub tape. Now, what are those tapes of?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Investigators suspect that Herb had hidden video cameras in the ceiling of the basement pool area to secretly record whatever was going on down there.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

Are they blackmail tapes of people having sex with these guys? Are they snuff films? What exactly is on those tapes? Because there reportedly was a whole lot of them.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

So maybe when they see the box of tapes in his car, maybe he was removing incriminating evidence.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

The next day, Herb is located.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

There are no videotapes in his car, and he's found dead.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

He's found dead of a gunshot wound in a park. Police say it's a suicide. He's left a rambling three page note.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What's in the note?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So he mentions marriage trouble. He mentions that his business is failing. He mentions a peanut butter sandwich.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

There's a lot in the note where he's kind of feeling sorry for himself, not taking any personal responsibility for his marriage troubles or his financial problems. He doesn't mention the crimes at all. He doesn't express any guilt, remorse, anything. So now Herb is dead. He's really the one and only suspect, and the police dropped the case. Wait, wait, wait.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

They drop the case?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Mm.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What about all the people that are in the woods in Herb's backyard at the time?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Police say eight men who disappeared from the Indianapolis nightclub scene were probably victims of Herb Baumeister. But then they go on to say that the real victims in this case are Julie and the three kids.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What? I mean, I get that they may also be victims in some way if they truly didn't know what was going on. I mean, how traumatic. Absolutely. But, I mean, come on, there are all these people who died, and they're not even identified. Oh, my God.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I know. So law enforcement takes the remains that they find. And keep in mind, a lot of these remains are just little shards of bone. There are femurs. There's a jawbone with teeth. They take these bits of actual people to the University of Indianapolis, and that's where they're stored.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

And what do they tell the families of all these men who went missing?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

This is also shocking. They say if you want to know if your loved one was killed at Fox Hollow, you can pay to have your DNA tested against the remains. Essentially like, we're all done here.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What? Wait. Also. Okay, I. Sorry, I'm just. My. My mind is blown right now because, I mean, what is like a government for but to do services like this where there's potentially a mass murder or a series of who knows how many murders. I mean, how do we know how many people might be victims? And also, we don't even 100% know that it was Herb who did it. Like, have they really gotten to the bottom of it? He didn't admit to it. What evidence exactly do they have? And then on top of that, each of those remains would probably need to be tested. I mean, that costs money. How is like a random person supposed to fund that?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, it is baffling.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

These are people who died.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Herb Baumeister was 49 when he was found dead. His wife Julie changes her name and she and the kids move out of the house. Detectives and the coroner at the time move on to new cases, but the families of the missing men are left with no answers. And then one day in 2022, everything changes.

[Eric Pranger]

So at the time I was transporting for the city of Indianapolis for the coroner's office.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

A young guy named Eric Pranger had recently gotten a job with the city of Indianapolis coroner's office transporting bodies. Which basically means if someone dies at a crime scene or in a nursing home, but they have no family, he goes and collects the body.

[Eric Pranger]

One night it was kind of slow and we were bored. We were just chatting about cold case files and everything like that. And it dawned on me that my cousin's a possible victim of Herb Bohmeister and he's never been identified.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Who is Eric's cousin?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

His name was Alan Livingston. He was 27 years old when he went missing in August of 1993. And the last time anyone saw him, he was getting into a car in Indianapolis.

[Eric Pranger]

He was a pretty fun going guy, loved to party, always the center of attention. He would always put a smile on your face.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Eric was only six when Alan went missing. And Alen, get this. Eric actually grew up down the street from the Save A Lot store. You know, the business that Herb and Julie Baumeister owned.

[Eric Pranger]

So I remember the thrift store shut down and my mom told me that the owner is the possible killer of my cousin Alan. But I was too young to really get in a detailed conversation. I didn't get deep into it until I got into the funeral industry.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Eric goes to his aunt Sharon, who's Ellen's mom, and. And he starts to ask, tell me about the story. When did you last see Allen? And she says, well, he called me every single weekend. And one weekend he didn't call. And he was supposed to come over a couple of days later, and he never showed up. And that was not Alan. She knew he was gay. She actually herself was gay. The family had no problem with it. They loved Alan's personality, his style. He was funny. He was very caring. He wore big earrings and tie dye T shirts. And he really took care of his mom. And she says to Eric, her nephew, I think that Alan was murdered. And I actually think that he was murdered on the Fox Hollow property.

[Eric Pranger]

My aunt Sharon made several calls to the detectives, to the coroner. She was always getting the same answer, you know, that they're investigating it, and she just never heard back. And she gave up hope.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

She really feels that the case just sat there because Allen was gay and that nobody cared.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

As you talk about Allen, it just strikes me as so often, I think when people are the victims, they're also immediately stigmatized. Like somehow implicitly, we as humans, maybe we have this thought, like, oh, maybe it was their own fault on some level. It's like this double layer or this intersection of stigma where it's like you're a victim and you're gay. You just become more and more dehumanized and less and less important and totally misrepresented.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yes.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Everybody has a family and a story, and that's forgotten in all this.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And Sharon has kept a landline all of these years because that was the number that Allen would call her on. Oh, so if he calls. And so she's like, I'm not giving up the number. Like, on the off chance.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Wow.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

That there's some story of he left town and wasn't able to reach me. He knows this number. So Alan's cousin Eric, his co workers, tell him he's got to find out what happened to Alan. And on top of that, Allen's mom has been diagnosed with cancer. So Eric calls the coroner's office in Hamilton county, and Jeff Jellison answers the phone.

[Eric Pranger]

I ask him to bring my cousin home to his mother before she passes away. And she had terminal cancer. And that was enough right there to get Jeff listening.

[Glen Washington]

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So good.

[Glen Washington]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I got it. I got it.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

No, I got it.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Seriously. I assist.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I assisted first.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

You don't be silly.

[Glen Washington]

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Okay.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Jeff Jellison]

Shoot.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

No.

[Glen Washington]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

When Eric first calls. Jeff Jellison isn't even the elected coroner yet. He's the Chief deputy in the coroner's office. He had been a police officer in the 80s and 90s and then went on to own a few businesses. Then In April of 2022, he takes the call from Eric Pranger saying, my aunt has terminal cancer. Please take this case before it's too late. I need to find out if Ellen Livingston was murdered at Fox Hollow Farm.

[Jeff Jellison]

So how do you say no? I mean, you can't and you know, I have no clue that individuals had not been identified and families hadn't had any closure.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What did Jeff Jellison know about the Fox Hollow case before that phone call?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

He's aware of the Fox Hollow murders because he actually lives not too far from the property. But, you know, as this happened like roughly 30 years ago, he assumes that back then that law enforcement thoroughly investigated the case, that bodies were identified.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Sure.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

He has no reason to think anything otherwise. So Jeff says to Eric, sure, I'm going to look into this. Let me see what I can find out. So Jeff Jellison calls the university where the bone fragments that were retrieved from the Fox Hollow property are being stored. And he speaks to the sort of head custodian who's overseeing the archive of all of these bones.

[Jeff Jellison]

And they said, just what do we have there? And she said, 10,000 bone and bone fragments. And I heard her say 1,000. And I thought, oh, okay, we can deal with that. I mean, that's manageable. And she said, no, Jeff, I said 10,000. And I said, what? I mean, honestly, I said, what have I just gotten into?

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I mean, where do you even begin?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So Jeff puts down the phone and he goes home to talk with his wife.

[Jeff Jellison]

I spent several nights sitting on the couch with a very supportive wife. The statutory duty of the coroner is to identify the deceased found in this county. The other coroners were presented with that opportunity. They chose not to do it. I explained to my wife this was, this is going to be life changing. And I mean, she agreed.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And he says, I need to give this guy an answer. But I know that I'm essentially pulling a thread of a massive case that is going to really like rock the boat in this town.

[Jeff Jellison]

This is the second largest case of unidentified human remains in this country, second only to the World Trade Center. Before I took over as coroner, you know, we may have had three deputy coroners in this office, plus the elected coroner. Did he have the staff or did the former quarters have the staff to conduct an investigation like this? And when it boils down to it, I'm just going to be very blunt. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you had the staff or not. Doesn't matter. If law enforcement had the time or resources you have to make it happen. These are people, these are families. And you can't say, well, we just can't do it.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So Jeff goes public and he talks to, like, any TV station or newspaper or radio outlet, like anybody that will give him some time. And he says, listen, if you have a friend, relative, if you know of any person who disappeared in the early 90s, please come forward. He set up a system and what he really wanted was people to come and give a DNA sample, a mouth swab, because now they're going to start DNA testing these fragments and try and match them up with living relatives. Wow.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Which probably should have happened decades earlier.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So not everybody is on board. And Jeff is contacted by a former county councilman who was a local politician during the time of the Fox Hollow case. The guy wants to know why in the world Coroner Jeff Jellison would spend any of the county resources on opening this investigation. Now Jeff is also reaching out to family members who had filed missing person reports back in the 90s.

[Jeff Jellison]

We made no promises. Explained to them that this is an extremely challenging investigation because of the conditions of the remains. They were burnt, they were crushed. You know, they sat in the woods for however long before they were recovered. Carnivores are chewed on them. Some of them are the size maybe a fingernail, you know, in size comparison. But we're never gonna get it done if we don't try.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

And I'm assuming he's getting DNA swabs from the families, but I mean, with 10,000 bone fragments, how do you figure out what to test?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, Jeff works with the University of Indianapolis. And those folks figure out which bones have the best chance of usable DNA. And he also pulls in more experts. He creates a team with the FBI, State Police, center for Human Identification, and also Steve Ainsworth.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Oh, yeah, Steve. He's the former homicide detective who now works at othram.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, and it's a two step process because remember, a lot of the men who went missing back in the 90s were never reported to police. So first, about 44 bones are selected for testing and. And Steve says they would compare the DNA profile of each bone to the DNA swabs that family members had submitted.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

So they can do basically a one to one relationship like a mother or a sibling or something like that, and they could identify them that way. And then after they had done that and made those comparisons, if they didn't match any of the familiar references, then they send them to Othram.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

The second step of this process is doing forensic genetic genealogy on the remains that don't have a familial DNA hit.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Right. Because I mean, with no family reference, they need to build out a family tree to find out who this person is.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah. And Aylin, in October of 2023, they make the first identification I ever forget.

[Jeff Jellison]

That phone call I saw, it was the state police. So I went ahead and answered it and they said, we have a match. I said, who is it? And they said, alan Livingston. And I said, you know, don't joke with me like that. You know, what are the odds? And they said, no, it's Alan Livingston. And I knew right then, you know, that's God's work. I walked outside my office and called all my deputies together and there was a lot of high fives, a lot of celebrations. And then it just like it hit us all that we've just identified a murder victim and we have many, many more to.

[Glen Washington]

You think you know Snap judgment. Yes. It's on npr. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up for. Welcome to the podcast hall of fame. Glenn Washington. Award winning stories, original beats, soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap Touch from KQED every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast, it is Ryan Seacrest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacasino.com it's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumba Casino has over a hundred online casino style games, all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus [e-mail] sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply.

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Wasn'T that delicious?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

So good.

[Glen Washington]

Your bill, ladies.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I got it.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

No, I got it.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Seriously, I insist I sit first. Don't be silly.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

You don't be silly.

[Glen Washington]

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[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors, Shoot. No.

[Glen Washington]

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

So the first human remains that are identified from Fox Hollow after 30 years belonged to Alan Livingston. And it was his cousin who essentially reopened this case with his phone call. Does Alan's mom live long enough to hear the news?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

She does. She's heartbroken. But she said she knew in her gut all along that Allen was a victim of her baumeisters. Now Alan had been identified from his femur bone, and Jeff calls Eric to tell him he can finally take his cousin home.

[Eric Pranger]

I was like, when can I come get him? Can I come right now? Yeah. I rushed to get that. When I left my house to go pick up Alan's remains. I stopped at Allen's brother James house. And James and I drove up to the Hamilton County Coroner's office and picked him up. And it was pretty emotional. It was exciting too, to be able to shake Jeff's hand after all that hard work.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Since Eric works in the funeral industry, he was able to cremate Allen's bone himself and give his aunt an urn with Allen's ashes. She kept the urn in her living room until she died. And Aylin, Alan's bone was the first to be identified. But since then, they've found more of his remains.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Have they identified more people since then?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

When I spoke to Jeff Jellison, they had identified 11 victims at Fox Hollow. But here's the thing. It's still a very open case. Steve Ainsworth and Jeff have been back to the property to do another search.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

When we went out there with cadaver dogs, Jeff and I found what we think are three Bone fragments just in areas where the dirt would wash down and collect, say on a root or against a rock or something like that. And you start digging in there and start finding little, little, little pieces. And we found a couple, I think three that were quite possibly bone fragments. So there's still some out there.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

The fact that they're still finding bones speaks to how large this crime is, but also the lengths to which Herb and maybe accomplices, if he had accomplices, went to destroy evidence. Do we know how these men were murdered?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

They have some theories. Remember, this whole case unravels when Herb's son finds the skull in the woods. Steve says that is the only fully intact skull that's ever been found there.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

So that's the most readily identifiable part of a person. And I think he was actually got very, very cautious and started crushing the bones. So once they had decomposed to the point where he could crush them, I think he was crushing them. And in fact, there were statements made by the witness. There was some sort of a large piece of heavy equipment that would drive back and forth across the property.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I remember there was a burn pile too. Right. So I could see maybe that was Herb trying to make it harder to find or ID people.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You can understand why this case has been so challenging and really just overwhelming. And it was a challenge for Othram for a couple of reasons. First, David Mittleman says the bone fragments were mixed up. I mean, investigators think There are possibly 56 victims, and the remains are charred and they've been left out in the woods for decades.

[Glen Washington]

They've got a bunch of skeletal fragments, no clues. So there are no leads to associate these remains or fragments of remains with.

[Jeff Jellison]

With an actual person.

[Glen Washington]

Was this, in fact, a victim of that serial killer? This is the perfect time to use.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

A technique like DNA testing that could at least tell you whose remains these are.

[Jeff Jellison]

And then with that information at hand.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You'Re in a position to make some decisions. This is one case that David's wife Kristin actually had to step away from.

[Kristin Mittleman]

Some of these cases are so horrifying that you don't sleep. There are some that you can't. You just. You can't. And think about how many people. We're human. Right? We're human, and this affects us. I think that's the part people don't understand. We're scientists. Yes. And the science is solid. And it's based on can. Is it feasible or is it not? And, you know, you know, how many markers can you get here and where can you Upload and what algorithms are you using? And all of that is black and white. But the emotions that come with each one of these cases are not. It's horrifying.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Recently, another set of remains were sent to Othram. The DNA had no familial hits, so this person was never reported missing to police. Genetic genealogy led them to a possible identification. But Jeff Jellison says there were unexpected problems.

[Jeff Jellison]

We find out his brother is deceased, his mother is deceased, and his father is deceased. So we're thinking his entire family is deceased. How are we going to do this? So we find out that the mom had died of a drug overdose in a neighboring county. To us, they had a DNA card.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

What's a DNA card?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

A DNA card is a way for a medical examiner to collect and store blood so that the person's DNA can be tested later. And it's usually used when there's an unidentified body or if someone dies under suspicious circumstances. And it's interesting. The card absorbs and dries the blood, saving the DNA. So Jeff is able to get this particular DNA card and sends that to.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Othram to develop a DNA profile of his mom who had already died.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah. And from that they find another relative who is alive.

[Jeff Jellison]

The next day, we find out that this person has a daughter that lives in North Carolina.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

The man who died, he had a daughter, she said.

[Jeff Jellison]

My parents divorced when I was very young, so I never knew my dad. And I always wondered about my dad.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Her dad was Daniel Thomas Halloran. He was roughly 24 when he was murdered. His daughter Coral said that over the years the family had looked for him. They had even hired a private detective and contacted social service agencies. They were just looking for any trace of him.

[Jeff Jellison]

And she even said to me, I felt closer to my dad. Now that you were able to make this identification.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

That'S so interesting. I do think there's something about just knowing what happened. It literally can make you feel closer to the person you lost. And maybe you also know, like, they weren't avoiding me all these years. There's a reason they disappeared. I feel like knowledge of the truth has so much power. But I'm also curious. What happened to the Fox Hollow property?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, a guy named Robert Graves bought it. He and his family were aware of what happened at Fox Hollow. And the grounds have changed. The woods don't come right up behind the property like they used to. And some of the 18 acres has been sold off and developed. But Alen, the new owner, has kept the house pretty much exactly how it was when the Baumeisters lived there. The basement indoor pool is still there, the dark library. Robert Graves sleeps in the same bedroom that Herb did. And he's a self proclaimed student of Herb Baumeister. He even wrote a book about the murders called the Horrors of Fox Hollow Farm.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Okay, I'm sorry, but there's something about that that creeps me out. Do we know if Herb had any accomplices? Because I'm realizing since he died by suspected suicide and the original investigation was dropped. Do we know anything more now?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Well, no one I spoke to thinks Herb did this all by himself. Steve Ainsworth, the investigator working with Othram, told me that a few different men at the time said they were approached at various gay bars in Indianapolis by a man. But that man was not Herb.

[Narrator / Interviewee (possibly a forensic expert or family member)]

A potential victim identified a person who picked him up at a bar and said, hey, I've got this really, really wealthy friend. He's got this great house, he's got an indoor swimming pool. You've got to come and see it. And so he was taken out there. And it wasn't by Baumeister to have had two witnesses that came forward and told us about a young man that was shot. And he was shot by Baumeister, but he was being held and was possibly being handcuffed by two or three other people. And their accounts are almost identical.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I wonder if we'll ever know the full truth of what happened at Fox Hollow Farm or who was involved.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, so far Jeff says they've extracted DNA from roughly 150 bone fragments. But I mean, they still have thousands more to test.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I could see how testing the bones could also produce more leads. Because maybe if they talked to friends and family of the men who died, they could find out who they'd last been seen with. I mean, some family members could have ideas about who lured them out there. And that could be an actual way to find out who else was involved.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

You know, that's something Kristen Mittleman says is really important. Especially in crimes involving serial killers.

[Kristin Mittleman]

When you hide a victim, disfigure a victim, destroy a victim. And there isn't that victim identity. It's really difficult to work that crime. It's immediately stalled. And I think a lot of serial killers, they get away with and they do it over and over and over again in almost the same manner. And once the victims start getting identified, then it's pretty easy to connect who was connected to all of these victims.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And there's another part of this Story. You know, I had mentioned back in 1996 when the remains were first discovered, Jeff says the attitude of county officials was like, well, I mean, let these families pay for the identification themselves.

[Jeff Jellison]

They didn't support the families. You know, when some of these remains were returned in the 90s, they called these family members in and they said, we've got your loved ones remains. We need to return them to you. They gave them paper sacks with raw bones in them. I mean, damn it, are we so lacking in compassion that we're just going to hand them a raw bone?

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

It's not always as easy as returning remains to families when they're identified. Sometimes relatives don't have the money to bury the remains or it's frankly just too painful to reopen that wound. So Jeff worked with local authorities and organizations to cremate the remains for free. And if the family doesn't want to take the ashes home, there's a memorial for the victims not far from Fox Hollow where their remains can be buried.

[Jeff Jellison]

And it's really become a very special place. I don't live far from it, and I drive by it every morning to work. And I've actually seen families visit.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

It is just wild to me that this is a story that so few people have heard of. It seems like quite often stories like this don't hit the media. The information isn't disseminated if it doesn't go to trial, because it's at the trial where the truth is really hammered out. It's discussed, it's in the public domain, it's in the air, it's reported on. And so in a way, by her Baumeister potentially killing himself, or I guess we don't know exactly what happened, but it's like that opportunity to fully understand what happened, to fully know who the victims are and to address the underlying social issues that maybe need to be addressed. That is all lost.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

I think that's something Jeff and the team at Othram are working to do. Not only give back these victims their names, but to try and give families answers and, as they say, to right the wrongs of the past. Recently, Jeff and Steve invited some family members to walk the grounds of Fox Hollow.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Whoa.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

And Alan Livingston's cousin Eric went.

[Eric Pranger]

It was very intense and overwhelming. Very scary, too. Like just walking through the woods, thinking about everything that happened there. Being in the swimming pool room, I did not feel, other than everybody that was in there, I did not feel alone.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

I can't even imagine.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Othram has identified multiple victims at Fox Hollow. In addition to Daniel Holloran, there's 31 year old Jeffrey Jones who went missing in 1993. And investigators say they plan to announce more identification soon. And Alen, as shocking as this case is, sadly there are tens of thousands of unidentified human remains all over the country. The Department of Justice calls it a silent mass disaster and it is more.

[Kristin Mittleman]

Common than any of us think. It is so common, there are so many cases out there where, because the body isn't discovered yet, because the body is out in the middle of a field somewhere in a dumpster, in a trash bag, underground, the case isn't even a case. No one even is trying to figure out the crimes. And for the first time there's a solution. This technology is being used universally to try to solve these unsolvable crimes. And victims families have hope. I can't tell you the amount of time that family writes to me today and tells me because of your technology I have hope that my case is next. That the person I'm missing will one day be identified. That's the greatest feeling in the world.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Fox Hollow is still a very active case. Othram is working with these tiny charred and degraded bone fragments so we can finally discover who all of the victims are. And Jeff Jellison is hoping to hear from more families so he can collect more DNA samples because ultimately these remains need to be returned home to their families.

[Jeff Jellison]

If you have a missing person, call me.

[Eric Pranger]

I don't care where they're missing from.

[Jeff Jellison]

I don't care when they went missing. You never know. Contact law enforcement, make sure that they take your DNA because that's the most efficient way of identifying any missing person case. When remains are found, we're identifying remains and providing people with answers and we're not going to stop. As long as I'm in this position. You know, the old cop at me comes out and it's like, get out of my way because we're going to do this.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

Next time on America's Crime Lab. I knew when I looked down at my phone and it said that it.

[Aylin Lance Lesser]

Was Chief James Fry calling, that it was probably something big. I don't typically get a call in.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

The middle of a Sunday afternoon from the chief.

[Jeff Jellison]

We had four people that were killed, no eyewitnesses.

[Eric Pranger]

And we had to start from basically.

[Jeff Jellison]

With nothing and try and figure everything out.

[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is by David Woje. Our producing team is Catherine Fenollosa. Emily Forman and Jessica Alpert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadigadur and David and Kristin Mittleman. And from iHeart, Katrina Norville and Ally Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrd, Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Etosky, John Burbank and the entire team at othram. I'm Aylin Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening.

[Glen Washington]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from kqed. Every week we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast, Fox one is now live. It's the new way to stream all your Fox favorites all in one place. That means NFL Sundays and college football games, breaking news with the Fox voices you trust and your favorite show streamed as they happen. So nothing gets spoiled. With Fox one, you get it all live. Edge of YOUR seat plays, Jaw dropping moments and that feeling like you're right there in the action. Start your 7 day trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox One for complete terms and conditions. Fox One we live for live streaming now. Looking for excitement? Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime. Play anywhere. Play on the train. Play at the store. Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for?

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[Co-host / Investigator (possibly Steve Ainsworth)]

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