New Forensic Details From the Idaho Student Murders - Part 3

Summary

America's Crime Lab

Episode: The Idaho Student Murders: DNA in Real Time Part 3

Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Aylin Lance Lesser
Producer: Katherine Fenollosa

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Brief Overview

This episode completes a gripping three-part examination of the investigation into the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students. It focuses on the pivotal role of forensic genetic genealogy at Othram Lab, the intertwining of traditional police work and cutting-edge DNA analysis, the emotional journey of the victims' families, and the painstaking process that led to the arrest and conviction of Bryan Kohberger. The episode delves into the cascade of evidence and investigative steps following the identification of the suspect, encapsulating both the technical breakthroughs and the devastating human impact of these crimes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Aftermath and Community Grief

• The Mood in Moscow: The community remains on edge, with heightened security and palpable anxiety among students returning from break. The University hosts a massive vigil in the indoor stadium, balancing grief and concern for safety ([04:02]).
• Family Reflections: Ethan Chapin's parents, Jim and Stacy, share personal moments from funeral planning, overwhelmed by the outpouring of support ([05:46]).

2. Investigative Breakthrough: DNA and Genealogy

• Othram's Role: Othram creates a high-quality DNA profile from the suspect’s DNA found on a knife sheath, which is notably fresh due to the recency of the crime ([09:10], [10:19]).
• Risk of Evidence Consumption: Kristen Mittleman discusses the significance and risk of testing the only viable DNA evidence—the knife sheath ([09:10]).
• Genealogy Connections: Othram and investigators trace connections to Pennsylvania, cross-referencing with white Hyundai Elantra owners ([10:29]-[11:09]).

3. Cascade of Clues: Traditional Meets Modern Policing

• Suspect Identification: Surveillance, license plate changes, and cell phone data help narrow down to Bryan Kohberger, a criminology graduate student ([12:04]-[12:25]).
• "It’s Everything Coming Together": Multiple small clues—car registration, location, timing—create a constellation that identifies the suspect ([11:28], [12:29]).
• Description Match: Physical features match eyewitness Dylan's account about the suspect’s “big, bushy eyebrows,” creating a chilling confirmation ([14:06]-[14:44]).
• First Reactions: Investigators express disbelief at how quickly forensic genealogy provided a lead ([13:40]).

4. Surveillance and Gathering Additional Evidence

• Travel and Behavior: Kohberger’s cross-country road trip with his father, calm demeanor during traffic stops, and obsessive cleaning of his car are observed and analyzed ([19:02]-[21:33]).
• Cell Phone and Purchase Records: Investigators notice suspicious gaps in cell phone activity and a shift from card to cash transactions. Tracing Amazon purchases for a K-bar knife sharpener using a gift card adds to concerns of premeditation ([22:02]-[24:28]).
• Trash Pull: The FBI collects trash from Kohberger’s family home in Pennsylvania and finds a Q-tip with earwax, providing a crucial reference sample ([26:01]-[26:42]).
• DNA Confirmation: Independent laboratories confirm the match between the knife sheath DNA and the Kohberger family—removing any doubt about the suspect’s identity ([27:07]-[27:57]).

5. Arrest, Prosecution, and Plea Deal

• Arrest Operation: With the help of a local business providing a private jet, law enforcement moves quickly to Pennsylvania. Kohberger is arrested in the basement of his family home without resistance ([31:35]-[32:41]).
• Direct DNA Match: A swab confirms a 100% match to the knife sheath evidence ([32:56]).
• Reflections from Prosecution: Prosecutors detail the importance of genetic genealogy and the massive time it saved ([33:13]-[33:58]).
• Kohberger's Background: The episode offers insights into his upbringing in Pennsylvania, history of bullying and depression, studies in criminology, and disturbing survey questions as a grad student ([34:13]-[36:05]).

6. Motive and Victimology

• Police and Prosecutor Analysis: Investigators believe the attack was targeted at the house, with the sequence of attacks inferred from the crime scene ([38:29]-[40:21]).
• Questions of Stalking: Speculation arises from allegations of Kohberger making students feel uncomfortable and following women, as well as unconfirmed reports of Kaylee being followed ([37:18]-[38:17]).

7. The Legal Aftermath, Family Trauma, and Sentencing

• Plea Deal Decision: Families are divided between seeking closure versus pursuing the death penalty; ultimately, Kohberger pleads guilty and receives life without parole ([43:15]-[45:41]).
• Victim Statements: Emotional testimonies from survivors and family members are delivered at sentencing. Some speak directly to Kohberger; others express determination to reclaim their lives ([46:57]-[51:26]).
• Moving Forward: The Chapin family finds personal ways to honor Ethan’s memory with tattoos and daily rituals ([52:00]-[53:17]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Trust and Powerlessness

• Ethan Chapin’s Mother, Stacy:

  “We’re not law enforcement. We’re not lawyers. We’re not prosecutors. We’re not DNA experts. We’re just mom and dad. And all we could do is trust the system... There was nothing we could do. We just decided to make sure that we were figuring out how to honor Ethan...”
  [02:27]

The DNA Breakthrough

• David Mittleman, Othram:

  “This was some of the best quality DNA we’d ever seen. The challenge was just doing this very carefully and very quickly..."
  [10:19]

From an Eyewitness

• Eyewitness Description:

  “She saw a man dressed in all black with a black ski mask covering his face... the only part of his face that she could see was his eyes... he had these really big, bushy eyebrows.”
  [14:06]-[14:44]

Investigative Shock

• Prosecutor Ashley Jennings:

  “Our first reaction was disbelief... I don’t think any of us were expecting an answer so quickly... Was he ever on a suspect list? No. Never heard his name before.”
  [12:29]

Survivor’s Viewpoint

• Dylan, Surviving Roommate:

  “What happened that night changed everything. I made escape plans everywhere I went... I can’t think. I can't stop shaking... They say I’m a survivor, but they don’t see what my new reality looks like... They don’t see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion...”
  [46:57]-[47:35]

Family Forgiveness and Resolve

• Zanna’s Aunt, Kim Kurnoodle:

  “Brian, I’m here today to tell you I’ve forgiven you. Because I no longer could live with that hate in my heart. And for me to become a better person, I have forgiven you. And anytime you want to talk and tell me what happened... I’ll be that one that’ll listen to you.”
  [49:10]

• Maddie’s Stepfather, Scott Laramie:

  “As for the defendant, we will not waste the words, nor will we fall into hatred and bitterness... We are done being victims. We are taking back our lives... We will turn our time, talents and attention to hope, healing, and helping others. And to the future...”
  [48:12]

On Personal Grieving and Rituals

• Jim Chapin:

  “I talk to Ethan every morning. It’s usually on my way to work. And listen to his favorite kind of song, to his favorite country song... I just play that and talk to him on my way to work every morning.”
  [52:48]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:27 — Families’ sense of powerlessness and grief
• 04:02 — Community panic and the vigil
• 07:33 — Prosecutor explains how DNA and genealogy led to the suspect
• 10:19 — Othram describes DNA quality and urgency
• 12:29 — Reveal of Bryan Kohberger’s identity
• 14:44 — Physical identification and bushy eyebrows
• 19:02 — Surveillance on Kohberger’s family, suspicious behavior in Pennsylvania
• 22:02 — Cell phone data and changes in Kohberger’s activity
• 24:28 — Amazon gift card purchase and evidence of premeditation
• 26:01-26:42 — Trash pull and DNA confirmation
• 31:35 — Cross-country jet for arrest operation
• 32:56 — 100% DNA match with suspect
• 34:13 — Details of Kohberger’s background
• 38:29 — Motive and entry into the house
• 43:15 — Plea negotiations and the families’ perspectives
• 46:57-47:35 — Dylan’s testimony
• 48:12 — Maddie’s stepfather’s statement
• 49:10 — Zanna’s aunt’s forgiveness
• 52:48 — Chapin family’s tattoo ritual and daily connection

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Tone and Language

• The language remains emotionally resonant, direct, and at times raw—reflecting both the trauma of loss and the procedural tension of an active investigation.
• Prosecutors and investigators express both disbelief and relief at the efficacy of new genealogy techniques, while families vacillate between anger, heartbreak, resilience, and forgiveness.

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Conclusion

This episode weaves advanced science with raw human experiences, illustrating how genetic genealogy transformed a complex, terrifying case into a prosecutable reality. Alongside a step-by-step breakdown of investigative efforts, listeners are immersed in survivors’ struggles and the enduring, ever-evolving process of grief. The episode closes with families forging meaning and rituals amidst their losses, while justice—however imperfect—offers a measure of finality.

Transcript

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We're not law enforcement. We're not lawyers. We're not prosecutors. We're not DNA experts.

[B]

We're just mom and dad.

[A]

We're just Mom And Dad. And all we could do is trust the system. What, you have no other choice? I mean, you could spend a lot of energy being really angry or caught up in the process, but there was. There's nothing we could do. We just decided to make sure that we were figuring out how to honor Ethan and kind of bring his memory along with us.

[C]

It's been weeks since four students were murdered in their off campus house near the University of Idaho. And for the first time, DNA from the crime scene is pointing police to a possible suspect. This is America's Crime Lab. I'm Aylin Lance Lesser. This is part three of the Idaho student murder case. If you missed the first two episodes, please go back and listen. I'm here with producer Katherine Fenollosa and Catherine. When we left off, Othram had traced the suspect's family to Pennsylvania.

[A]

Yeah, it's just after Thanksgiving and the Moscow community is still on edge. I mean, police haven't made an arrest. Meanwhile, students are returning from break and they're terrified. I mean, they're making sure their doors are locked. They're only venturing out in groups. You can just feel a real sense of panic. And in the middle of all of this fear, the University of Idaho decides to hold a vigil to honor the victims. Ethan, Zanna, Maddie and Kaylee. And they hold it in the school's huge indoor football stadium. The school feels it's important, you know, for them all to come together to grieve. But police are worried that the murderer might actually show up and staged an attack at this event.

[C]

Well, yeah, I mean, I can see why the murders felt so random and so violent. And unless someone really had a grudge against the group of friends living in that house, it does feel like a totally senseless act. Which in my opinion is way scarier. Anyone could be the target.

[A]

Yeah, they have police stationed everywhere. They've got undercover agents mixing in the crowd with the students. You have to go through a metal detector to even enter the building. And the families of Zanna, Kaylee, Maddie and Ethan speak and it's just heartbreaking. I mean, they're on this big stage and they're trying to say something meaningful, but they're clearly in a state of shock. I mean, they honestly don't know what to say. They're just struggling.

[C]

And to do that publicly, I can't imagine how difficult that is.

[A]

And the families have also been planning funerals. This is Ethan's mom, Stacy. I remember our friend Kirk. He's the director of the funeral home. And he was like, you guys might need to do this at a high school or, you know, in a gym and. Cause the place we'd picked only held like 600. And Jim and I were like, well, we really. I don't even know if we know that many people. I mean, you know, and we knocked the memorial out of the park. It was thousands of people. Jim had classmates show up that he hadn't seen since high school. There were people that I'd worked with from my very first job. The entire fraternity showed up. This was pretty amazing. Authorities are holding two meetings a day so that everyone on the investigation is on the same page because you've got a lot of agencies involved. There's the FBI, the Moscow police, the Idaho State Police, the State Crime Lab, and Othram.

[C]

That's complicated.

[A]

It's really complicated. And authorities are tracking down the white Hyundai Elantra that was seen speeding away from the King Road house after the murders. Police have canvassed local stores for leads on anyone who spot a K bar knife, the knife, you know, they believed was used in the killings. Now, Othram has worked around the clock to create a detailed DNA profile of the suspect, his historical background and possible family members. And they hand all of that information, their leads, off to the FBI. And after weeks of frustration, prosecutor Bill Thompson says the case starts to break wide open.

[B]

Well, the first lead that took us to the defendant was a lead that was developed through the investigative genetic genealogy process that started with Othram Laboratories from the DNA that was found on the knife sheath. And then the investigation proceeded into genealogy to try to identify somebody who might be related to the person who was responsible for this.

[C]

So we know the knife sheath is the big piece of evidence, but did they find any other evidence in the house?

[A]

So it's interesting. It's a six bedroom house that is occupied by college students who we know have parties.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Over the summer, there was a changeover with the roommates. There are a lot of people in and out of that house. So prosecutors said, you know, this was not a crime scene where you could go in and swipe a doorknob or a light switch or even, like, collect DNA off of bedsheets, the couch. You have so many people going in and out of that house. Right. So you're gonna find a lot of DNA from so many people that are just unrelated to this crime.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And it's tricky because the knife sheath is really the only evidence at the crime scene with the suspect's DNA. And that was weighing heavily on Kristen Mittleman. At othram.

[C]

That made it a lot more risky.

[A]

To go ahead and proceed with testing.

[C]

Because if you consume that evidence, that may be the only evidence from this.

[A]

Crime scene that will ever exist. The other thing that's interesting about the knife sheath is that there's a leather strap at the top with a snap, and that's what actually holds the knife in this holder. Now, Ailin, think about when you close a snap. You have to, like, press down firmly with your thumb or finger, and. And then when you open it, you're kind of flicking that same thumb or finger against the snap. And it. You know, it takes some effort to do, and there's a lot of contact between your thumb and the snap. In this case, investigators didn't just have DNA. They actually had a lot of it. And it was fresh. It hadn't, you know, been exposed to the elements, and it hadn't been sitting in a police locker for decades. Because this was a recent crime.

[C]

Yeah, like really recent.

[A]

And David Mittleman at OTHRAM says that makes it kind of different from working a cold case.

[B]

This was some of the best quality DNA we'd ever seen. The challenge was just doing this very carefully and very quickly so we can get leads back to investigators as soon as possible.

[A]

Now, if you remember, as Othram does the forensic genetic genealogy, they start to see clues that the suspect has family in Pennsylvania. Police also have a list of all the owners of white Hyundai Elantras in the region.

[C]

The car seen speeding from the King Road house after the murders.

[A]

Yeah. And so they're looking for Elantras with Pennsylvania connections, and they actually find that there's a graduate student at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, which is less than 10 miles from Moscow, where these murders happened, who had originally registered their car on campus with Pennsylvania plates.

[B]

He actually went and changed the registration on his car from Pennsylvania, which only requires a rear license plate, to Washington, which requires front and rear license plates.

[C]

And that happened after the murders?

[A]

Yeah, just days after the murders.

[C]

That is telling. It's interesting how it's a constellation of pieces of evidence. It's not any one thing. It's. It's everything coming together. The DNA, the car, the change in license plate.

[A]

Yeah. And then the FBI calls a big meeting, and all of the key players are there. You know, the prosecutors, Moscow police, state police. They've gone from, you know, 20,000 plus tips and lists of suspects where everybody's eventually been cleared.

[C]

They have 20,000 tips to narrow down. That feels nearly impossible.

[A]

Right. But in this meeting, they suddenly learn that they can narrow down the list of potential suspects and focus on just one person. It's a guy named Brian Coburger, who is from Pennsylvania. And Aylin, he's a graduate student in criminology at Washington State University.

[C]

And let me guess. His car is a white Hyundai Elantra.

[A]

I remember exactly that moment of hearing his name and where he lived and what he drove and seeing his picture. Our first reaction was disbelief. And it took a second for it to set in because it happened fairly quickly. I don't think any of us were expecting an answer so quickly. And so to get the answer, I wasn't expecting it. So it was a shock. Was he ever on a suspect list? No. Never heard his name before. Didn't know he existed until that moment. No one did. Prosecutor Ashley Jennings wasn't the only person who was shocked. Captain Dustin Blaker of the Moscow police actually thought the FBI was joking when they said Bryan Kohberger's name. Because all along, detectives have been saying, like, oh, come on, just give us a name to investigate. And then when they heard his name, detectives were like, okay, stop kidding around. They couldn't believe that after so many dead ends, forensic genetic genealogy actually worked.

[B]

So once we got past the initial shock, it was excitement. We had something now. We had a direction to go.

[A]

And then it really did change things. For the first time, the entire investigative team sees a picture of Bryan Kohberger. And he looks just like how Dylan, the roommate, described him, which is so remarkable.

[C]

In what way?

[A]

So just after 4am on November 13, when Dylan opened up her bedroom door, remember, she saw a man dressed in all black with a black ski mask covering his face, and he brushed right by her. The only part of his face that she could see was his eyes.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, she says, he looked right at me, and he had these really big, bushy eyebrows. And now investigators are staring at a photo of Bryan Kohberger and Aylin, he has these distinctive, big, bushy eyebrows.

[B]

We had an analyst with the FBI that went, okay, nobody go and start checking this guy's name online, because we don't know how smart he is. We don't know if he has anything logged or in a computer system somewhere that, hey, someone's searching my name now. So it was very hard for I know, myself and some of the other investigators to not do anything and actually go home and try and sleep, which I didn't sleep very well that night. I was too excited. Stop settling for weak sound. It's Time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because, let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save [e-mail] with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom.

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[C]

So the police and the FBI have a name and police captain Dustin Blaker can't sleep because he's excited to finally have a solid lead. I don't blame him. This is huge. So what happens the next day?

[A]

Well, they start looking through their records to see if they've had any interaction with Brian Kohberger. And it turns out that a few months before the murders, he was pulled over by Moscow police.

[B]

Our sheriff's department stopped his car for speeding. He got a ticket for no seat belt. But we were able then to identify him driving the car, confirm that the car was his, and that at that time, it was registered still with his Pennsylvania plates, which includes just a rear license plate.

[A]

Now authorities go to find Bryan Kohberger, but he's not in Idaho, and he's not in Pullman, Washington, either.

[B]

And followed his trail and located him in Pennsylvania.

[A]

What we know now is that in December, right before the DNA from the knife sheath is linked to Bryan Kohberger, his father flew out to Washington state, and the two of them then drive across the country back to the family home in Pennsylvania for the winter holidays.

[C]

In the white Hyundai Elantra.

[A]

Yeah, in the white Hyundai Elantra. And on that trip, Brian Kohberger and his dad are pulled over twice in Indiana for tailgating. Police recently released the body cam footage of the traffic stops. And in one of those videos, you can see the officer approach the car and the window is down. His dad is sitting in the passenger seat. And, you know, they're just like, having sort of a friendly conversation with the officer. Brian, he doesn't seem nervous about at all. He's not agitated. He leans down, like, toward his dad so he can see the officer directly through the window. He's, like, so calm.

[C]

I'd get nervous being pulled over anytime. The fact that it's possible he's just murdered four people and still seems so calm, that's haunting or maybe says something about him. But at this point, police don't know who they're talking to.

[A]

No. And what's so wild is that during both those stops, his dad actually mentions a fatal standoff at Washington State University, where Brian is a grad student. That had just happened the day before, totally unrelated to this crime. And his dad tells the officers that he and his son were just talking about that horrible incident. And now both of these traffic stops, he's let off with just a warning.

[C]

They're so close.

[A]

So when law enforcement can't find him in Washington or Idaho, they start monitoring his parents home in eastern Pennsylvania. It's in the Poconos. And they learn that he has two sisters. Now they can see that Bryan Kohberger and his dad have returned from this cross country drive. They also start to notice some odd behavior. So when Coburger exits the house, he's usually wearing gloves, you know, like medical or latex gloves. They can also see that he's parked his white Hyundai Elantra in the garage. And Aylin, they can see that he's cleaning the car a lot.

[C]

Cleaning the. Oh, God. He's just trying to hide any evidence or maybe trying to keep his DNA from being able to be taken by law enforcement.

[A]

Now, authorities are gathering a lot of other pieces of evidence and they get search warrants for his cell phone.

[B]

And then as we started digging into his cell phone data, we were able to determine that he had been in that area 22 or 23 different times since he moved here in June.

[C]

Near the King Road house.

[A]

Yeah. And that's between his cell phone pings and sightings of his car. And authorities noticed something else really unusual. So on the morning of the murders, his cell phone pings a tower in Pullman, Washington, where Brian Coburger lives. And that happens at 2:47am and then it stops connecting with the network.

[C]

Huh.

[A]

It reconnects at first, 4:48am but now it's south of Moscow. I asked Captain Blaker about that, the.

[B]

Fact that he had turned his phone off that night, which is very unusual nowadays for kids this age. They just don't do that. That's unheard of, that they're going to turn their phone off completely. And then it reactivated two hours after the homicide south of Moscow in a very rural area.

[A]

Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says they were able to trace his car. We were able to then accumulate video surveillance showing a white Elantra which matched his Elantra entering back into the Pullman area, going towards where he resided. And then Aylin, his phone is also picked up near the King Road house about five hours after the murders. Authorities get search warrants for Kohberger's financial records and they spot some really unusual activity there, too.

[B]

Before the murders, he used to shop very regularly using his debit card or credit card over here in Moscow. And that stopped right after the homicides. And he was shopping in Pullman or he's doing a lot of cash transactions, which was also suspicious to us and something that a jury could use to infer another acknowledgment or concern about his own guilt. And trying to keep a low profile.

[A]

They find a huge clue and it's pretty incriminating. And then we learn about the Amazon purchase and things just start falling into place. Looking at his purchases, detectives see that when Kohberger was still living in Pennsylvania, he bought an Amazon gift card and then immediately turned around and used the gift card to purchase a K bar knife sharpener and some vegan supplements. And that all occurred before he even moved to the area.

[C]

So maybe he thought that by buying the gift card it would cover his tracks, but it actually shows that there could be some premeditation.

[A]

Yeah, and like premeditation super far in advance. I think it led investigators to believe that he was already in the process of trying to cover his tracks unsuccessfully. But there would be no other purpose that we could uncover as to why you would purchase a gift card for yourself and then use the gift card to make purchases for yourself and use the entire thing other than you felt that that in some way would hide the purchases that you made. And we know that after the murders, he went back in to that Amazon account and researched if there was a way to delete your purchase history.

[C]

It's fascinating to me that once they had a name. It seems like everything, all of this evidence reveals itself.

[A]

It really does. But as they're closing in, authorities want more DNA. This time they need a reference sample.

[C]

Oh, I bet they do. I mean, they need to make sure they can connect DNA from family members in this house in Pennsylvania to the person who left the knife sheath in the bed next to Maddie and Kaylee.

[B]

And the last big piece of evidence before we were able to file charges is when the FBI did what's called a trash pull at his parents residence.

[A]

A few days after Christmas when the co burgers put their trash out for pickup. The FBI takes a few things.

[C]

It always gets me that law enforcement can just go through people's trash. Is that really legal in every state?

[A]

So laws vary state by state, but basically yeah. I mean, trash is considered abandoned property rather than like private property once you put it out for collection. In this case, authorities arranged with the garbage company to pick up the co burger's trash and then hand it over to detectives. And. And as they're looking through the bags, they find a Q tip with earwax on it.

[B]

And that was sent to the lab for analysis.

[A]

Now the Q tip is sent to the Idaho state lab. And this is actually really important. We know that Othram built a DNA profile and that along with police work like investigating the car and the suspicious registration switch, that all led authorities to Brian Kohberger. But now they need confirmation. And I sort of think of it as like double checking your work.

[C]

That makes sense.

[A]

Instead of sending the Q tip to Othram, they test it at the state lab. So it's a different lab using a different kind of DNA test from Othram to see if they get the same answer. Basically, does the DNA point to the same suspect?

[B]

And the Idaho state lab identified as being DNA from the father of the person whose DNA was on the knife sheath.

[A]

We also know from earlier DNA testing of the knife sheath that the DNA is from a male. And Brian doesn't have a brother. He's only got sisters. So at this point, you have two forensic labs working completely independently from one another and using two different methods, and they both point to the same suspect, Bryan Kohberger.

[B]

The other thing about the DNA that was unique and really important is it was sole source DNA from a male. In other words, there was no mixture of DNA. It wasn't something that maybe inadvertently his DNA had been on somebody else's hand and then they transferred it to the sheath. It wasn't that at all. It was a direct transfer from the defendant to the snap on that sheath. And that was powerful evidence. At that point, we believed we had enough evidence to file charges. And that's when we got the arrest warrant. Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because, let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom. And for a limited time, save [e-mail] with code fall25. Bring the boom. Xboom.

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[B]

Luckily, we had a local business in this area who has private jets that would like, take them. I'll give you my jet. I'll pay for the fuel. I'll pay for everything and put our guys on the plane and send them all the way to Pennsylvania that night. So it turned around very quickly and it was just excitement.

[A]

On December 30, a team of investigators and prosecutors are gathered in a room at the Moscow Police Department. And and they're watching a live feed from Pennsylvania where officers are surveilling the Coburger House. Prosecutor Bill Thompson says it's shortly after midnight.

[B]

It appeared that everybody in the house was asleep except him. He was up. He was seen by one of the surveillance officers in the kitchen area of the house and then looked like maybe he'd gone down to the garage area of the house and about at that point, they gave the green light for the teams to enter the residence, and they apprehended him in the basement.

[C]

Whoa, this is intense.

[A]

He doesn't put up a fight. Five days later, Bryan Kohberger is extradited back to Idaho and Moscow Police Captain Dustin Blaker says that's when they get a direct swab of his DNA then.

[B]

We had a 100% positive match to our original DNA sample off of the knife sheath. It's kind of hard to explain away your DNA being on the knife sheath found by one of the victims who had been stabbed to death with a knife that would have fit in that sheath.

[A]

Prosecutor Ashley Jennings says it all came down to forensic genetic genealogy. Do I think we would have eventually gotten to Bryan Kohberger? Yes. Yes, I do. But it absolutely would not have occurred so quickly. And I can't even begin to estimate how long it would have taken investigators to get to his name. But for the work of the genetic.

[B]

Genealogist, we now had him in custody. We now had an active criminal case. And that's where things started to pick up substantially for our office handling the court aspects of the prosecution.

[A]

Detectives and prosecutors are pulling all of the other evidence together. They search his apartment and his parents home, and in the process, we learn a lot more about who Bryan Kohberger is.

[C]

I have so many questions.

[A]

I know. So he grew up in Pennsylvania. Both his parents worked for the local school district. His mom was a teacher's aide, and his dad was a maintenance worker. He has two sisters. He was bullied a bit growing up, and he posted to various online sites about feeling depressed and having some suicidal tendencies. When he was 16, he posted, I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self worth. As I hug my family, I look into their faces, and I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game, but less. He says he basically saw his life as a video game where he could do whatever he wanted with little remorse. Kohberger also apparently started to suffer from visual snow around this time, where he complained his vision was fuzzy, and friends of his said it really bothered him. He graduated high school in 2013, and around this time, he starts using heroin. Later on, he gets clean and he studies criminology. In college, he tells a friend he wants to find a job either catching violent criminals or maybe counseling them.

[C]

Wow, that's just so ironic considering what's to come.

[A]

While he's getting his master's degree, he actually studies under an expert on serial killers. She's written books called the Mind of a Murderer and how to Catch a Killer. As part of his master's degree, he designs a survey where he asks ex cons about their crimes.

[C]

It's like he's researching how to commit a crime.

[A]

Yeah, he asked detailed questions, like, before making your move, how did you approach the victim or target after committing the crime? What were you Thinking and feeling. Why did you choose that victim or target over others?

[C]

Oh, my God, that is so terrifying.

[A]

I mean, it's hard not to feel like he's methodically researching this.

[C]

I mean, presumably spending all of his time studying criminology, understanding it, going into graduate school for it, then got to this kind of impressive place of studying and researching with this famous expert on serial killers. Like, he clearly is working so hard to get close to this topic. You're right. There is this calculated potentially for years and years, trying to get closer to this and being drawn to this as a thing in his life.

[A]

We also learned that the same day that authorities first learned Bryan Kohberger's name, he's fired from his position as a teaching assistant at Washington State University.

[C]

Oh, what happened?

[A]

Well, there are a number of complaints against him in the weeks surrounding the murders. He gets into some kind of disagreement with a professor twice. He's also known for getting into heated arguments in class, especially with female students. Several women complained that he was making them feel uncomfortable. One woman actually says Bryan Coburger followed her to her car. Now, Aylin, in the murder investigation, there was also some concern that Kaylee had a stalker. In one of Dylan's interviews with police, she mentions that Kaylee had been at a grocery store and noticed some guy following her in the store. And then when she goes out to her car, that same guy is in, standing next to her car. Kaylee also said she thought she was being watched when she took her dog outside at night to pee. Now, police looked into it, and basically, they couldn't prove that she had a stalker.

[C]

Yeah, but it's eerie to know that Coburger was making female students feel uncomfortable and following at least one of them. It does make me wonder if he was doing that to Kaylee, too.

[A]

Well. And remember, early on, police said they believed it was a targeted attack, even though they didn't know who did it or why. And I asked prosecutor Bill Thompson what he thought.

[B]

I don't want to speak for the police department itself on that. I know that Ashley and I, looking at the scene, looking at the nature of the attacks and the injuries, looking also at the activities of everybody and what we believe likely happened at the house. We thought it most likely that the murderer entered the house intending to attack at least one of the residents of the house, as opposed to a random grab somebody off the street. This was targeted on this particular residence.

[C]

And what makes him feel that way?

[A]

Well, they're pretty sure that Kohberger entered through that sliding glass Door on the second floor. You know, the one off the kitchen. Now, there are two bedrooms on that floor. Dylan's and Zanna's. But he doesn't go to either of those rooms. Instead, he enters and goes upstairs to the third floor, where Kaylee and Maddie's bedrooms are.

[B]

The nature of the injury suggested that Maddie was likely attacked first, and Kaylee was attacked immediately afterwards.

[A]

Now, we know Zanna got food delivered from Jack in the box. And based on crime scene photos, we can see that she. She eats some of it. French fries. And then she leaves it in the kitchen. So maybe she hears some commotion on the third floor and goes to investigate. Because, remember, Dylan says she hears someone say someone's here, and then she hears someone run down the stairs.

[C]

So maybe she was hearing Zanna. So Zanna hears noises, leaves her food behind on the second floor to investigate. She's the one who says someone's here. And then Zanna runs back downstairs again.

[A]

Yeah, and maybe Bryan Kohberger leaves Maddie's bedroom on the third floor and confronts Zanna on the second floor.

[B]

And we believe that that led to him pursuing Zanna to her room and killing her.

[A]

And Ethan, she had defensive wounds. So she was awake and encountered him maybe in a hallway.

[B]

Yes, we think that that is likely what happened. And she did. She had defenses, wounds. She did fight back.

[A]

And that's when Dylan opens her door and looks right at the suspect.

[C]

And now he's murdered four people. Maybe that's more than he'd intended. And he's also been in the house for 16 minutes. Maybe he panics. Maybe he just realizes he needs to get out of there.

[A]

Kohberger is charged with four counts of murder and one count of burglary. At his arraignment, he just stands there silent. He won't say anything. So the court enters a plea of not guilty on his behalf. And prosecutors Bill Thompson and Ashley Jennings prepare for a trial. Bryan Kohberger's defense team fights everything. The evidence, the DNA, literally everything.

[B]

They tried to assert that there was a legally protected interest in the DNA that was abandoned on the sheath. That's contrary to what the law says. They questioned the process of using the investigative genetic genealogy. We were confident from the beginning that the genetic genealogy was solid, and the courts agreed with us. But that was a major battle.

[A]

The judge rules that the DNA evidence can be admitted in court. And then Kohberger's team tries kind of a Hail Mary.

[B]

They wanted to point the finger at other people as being responsible for this, to try to point the finger at innocent third parties and try to argue that one of these other people might have somehow been responsible for the murders.

[A]

There's also the gag order. Remember, Aylin the judge bars everyone involved in the case from speaking public about it. And that just created non stop conspiracy theories and speculation. And Kristen Mittleman says it was incredibly frustrating and damaging to the truth.

[C]

The people that made themselves experts in this case were people that had not.

[A]

Worked the case, that may know a.

[C]

Little bit of this type of DNA testing.

[B]

And they went on every news show.

[C]

They could get on, on every talk.

[A]

Show, they could get on every podcast.

[C]

Out there and talked and talked in detail about how this case was solved. They were completely wrong, and it skews the public's understanding of what actually happened.

[A]

And so a few days later, the defense team reaches out to the prosecutors.

[B]

We were contacted by the defense with a question as to whether we wanted to make a plea offer. And we listened to what they had to say, and our immediate response is, well, what is the defendant willing to do?

[A]

Prosecutors call a meeting with the victims families. And Stacy Chapin, Ethan's mom, says it was actually just a routine check in. You'd never think that you're a family that's going to be in this position. But every book I've ever read or murder show you've ever watched, it talks about the death penalty versus a plea deal. I mean, I don't know if you've never done it. I don't think you have a preconceived notion about how it's really going to go down. You're just like, my God, how are we going to do this? My biggest worry was prepping Maisie and Hunter to potentially have to testify. And I am thinking to myself, I do not know how I'm going to get that girl on a stand. Ethan's siblings, Hunter and Mazie, I mean, they've been through utter hell and their grief is still so raw. They said they'd testify if it was absolutely necessary, but they're just shattered. I mean, good luck, everybody, because. Right. I mean, that was what I was most concerned about. So, no, thank you. I was like, yeah, we're all for life without parole. But not everyone felt the same way.

[B]

Not surprisingly, there was a split of opinion among the various families and family members, with some folks saying, we want this over with. We want closure. We want him to be gone forever. We don't want to have decades of appeals and others saying, no, we think that you need to continue to pursue the death Penalty, even if it takes decades. So we, the attorney team, took all that input and sat down among ourselves and weighed the pros and cons of various options. And we decided that we would tell the defense that if the defendant wished to avoid trial, there was only one option. That was for him to plead guilty as charged to all five counts and to waive appeals so that the case would be final. And we let them know that we were going to be looking for fixed life sentences to run consecutively.

[A]

Bryan Kohberger agreed to those conditions. And just a few months ago, In July of 2025, he changed his plea to guilty. At the sentencing, family members and friends of the victim spoke to a packed courthouse. It was streamed live online. And I watched it as it was happening. And, Alan, it was surreal. I mean, this might kind of sound strange, but after spending so much time researching this case, to see these family members stand there just deep in their grief and have to relive the worst moments of their lives and do it in front of Bryan Kohberger, it was just sobering. And there was a range of emotions. I want to play you some of what people had to say that day. This is Dylan talking. One of the surviving roommates, she was so overcome that she asked to sit in a chair at the prosecutor's table. Ashley Jennings stood up and gave her seat to Dylan. And as Dylan spoke, Bill Thompson, the other prosecutor, he actually turns his back to block Dylan's view of Kohberger. Here's Dylan.

[C]

What happened that night changed everything.

[A]

I made escape plans everywhere I went.

[C]

If something happens, how do I get out? What can I use to defend myself? I can't think. I can't stop shaking.

[A]

They say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my new reality looks like.

[C]

They don't see the panic attacks, the.

[A]

Hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan.

[C]

Every room I enter, the way I.

[A]

Flinch at sudden sounds. They don't know how heavy it is to carry so much pain and still be expected to keep going. And that's because of him. One after another, mothers, sisters, fathers, and uncles stood up to speak. Some looked right at Kohberger. Others never even glanced at him. One family member actually turned his back and spoke only to the family and friends gathered in the courthouse. This is Maddie's stepfather, Scott Laramie. He talked about Mattie's love of music and going to festivals with her.

[B]

As for the defendant, we will not waste the words, nor will we fall into hatred and bitterness. Evil has many faces, and we now Know this. But evil does not deserve our time and attention. We are done being victims. We are taking back our lives. We will turn our time, talents and attention to hope, healing and helping others. And to the future, we invite all those who have suffered with us on this to join us in our journey. We can make this world a better place. We can move on from tragedy. Adversity will visit us. Evil will visit us. But we will overcome.

[A]

Zanna's aunt, Kim Kurnoodle spoke about her. She was that fun loving, high spirited, beautiful person. And I no longer get to get my nails done with her, have lunch with her. Sorry, but how I look at it now is this tragedy has brought us closer. We're united now and we're stronger than ever. We have family and friends now that we never knew we had. And you know, this is probably going to bother everybody, but Brian, I'm here today to tell you I have forgiven you. Because I no longer could live with that hate in my heart. And for me to become a better person, I have forgiven you. And anytime you want to talk and tell me what happened, get my number, I'm here. No judgment, because I do have questions that I want you to answer. And I'm here. I'll be that one that'll listen to you. Kaylee's sister Olivia looked directly at Kohberger. You wanted so badly to be different, to be special, to be better, to be deep, to be mysterious. Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no one ever paid you any attention. In the light. I will call you what you are. Sociopath. Psychopath. Murderer. Ethan Chapin's family decided not to attend. This is his mom, Stacey. We genuinely had nothing to say. I mean, what is there to say? But that was ours. And everybody heals differently. There is no judgment on how anybody handled that situation. But for us, I. There was an amazing hunter. Didn't want to go. We had a family meeting about it and they just. We were just like, we're done. It's done, it's over. The sentence was written into the plea and there was nothing to say.

[B]

No, it just. It was over.

[C]

This is just such a good example of how people respond to or heal from trauma so differently. Everybody's got to find their own way of comprehending and processing what happened. And they're allowed to. I don't think they should be judged for that.

[A]

The Chapin family did do something on their own, though. One by one, they each got a tattoo to remember Ethan. And Maisie was the first one, which surprised me. She Just came home one day and she has a little E with wings. It's very cute.

[B]

I called him E Dog. So I had that tattooed on my.

[A]

Forearm, which was a shock.

[B]

I was never a tattoo guy. But I just, I got up one morning and I was driving in into town and I could go right to work or left to find someone that would do this for me. And I went left and I came back with it on.

[A]

Then I had to have one, so I went the next day. But mine is actually from a note that Ethan wrote me in his handwriting. You know, it was in some cute little card, says I love you, Mom. And Hunter got a C for the whole Chapin family. Jim says they each have their own private ritual for connecting with Ethan.

[B]

I talk to Ethan every morning. It's usually on my way to work. And listen to his favorite kind of song, to his favorite country song. He was a big Morgan Wallen fan. Yeah. And, and I know the songs when he was around that he listened to. And I, I just play that and talk to him on my way to work every morning.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[C]

There's something that feels so important about remembering someone across time through routine or just a moment here or there. And that connection through music that's so special.

[A]

Brian Kohberger is currently serving four consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole. There is relief that the murderer was caught quickly after a six and a half week manhunt and before he could hurt anyone else. But now these families have to pick up the pieces and figure out what life looks like like without Ethan, Zanna, Maddie, and Kaylee.

[C]

Yeah, picking up those pieces has got to feel impossible. Learning to live in what probably feels like a totally new way. And I bet it hits them again and again at unexpected times. But it really seems like with these four young people who were so full of energy and life, meanwhile, moving forward won't really be without them. It's clear that in these families and friends, their memories are still so vivid and so alive. Next time on America's Crime lab.

[A]

Dispatch received a 911 call from a neighbor. When they answered the door, they found her in nothing but a blood soaked T shirt.

[B]

You know what it looks like there's another case in another state that also has unknown DNA that is the same.

[A]

You know, then I'm really excited. Now we have a potential suspect.

[C]

America's crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is by David Woburn. Our producing team is Kathryn Fenollosa. Emily Forman and Jessica Alpert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadigidur and David and Kristen Mittleman. And from iHeart, Katrina Norville and Ally Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Etosky, John Burbank and the entire team at othram. I'm Alin Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening.

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