Analyzing the Trial of Michael Jackson

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Analyzing the Trial of Michael Jackson

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present (Legally Brunette)
Episode Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Emily Simpson (with Podcast Co-host, Shane)

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Overview & Main Theme

In this episode, Emily Simpson and her co-host take a deep dive into the events surrounding the 2005 trial of Michael Jackson, contextualizing the story with the release of the new Netflix documentary Michael Jackson: The Verdict and the concurrent Michael Jackson biopic. The conversation explores the origins of the charges, the key players, the family who accused Jackson, and the impact of the media — both at the time and in present retrospectives. Drawing on their legal background, the hosts examine the documentary, trial strategy, controversial evidence, and ongoing repercussions for Jackson’s legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage — Media, Coverage, and Documentary Context

• Netflix released Michael Jackson: The Verdict in close timing with the Michael Jackson biopic (07:32–08:20).
• The hosts discuss how true-crime interest and media access have changed since the trial, affecting public understanding and discourse around such cases.
• Quote:
  • “I thought it was interesting that Netflix released Michael Jackson the Verdict around the same time frame that the Michael biopic came out in theaters.” – Emily Simpson (07:32)

2. Origins of Accusations and Martin Bashir’s Documentary

• Martin Bashir’s Living with Michael Jackson documentary is highlighted as the spark for renewed interest and the criminal trial, featuring uncomfortable scenes of Jackson with Gavin Arvizo.
• Bashir’s prior unethical behavior with Princess Diana (forging documents) is discussed, raising questions about Jackson’s decision to trust him (09:44–11:00).
• Quote:
  • "He did not do his due diligence in regard to Martin Bashir... Martin Bashir procured that interview with Princess Diana by fraud.” – Emily Simpson (09:53)

3. The 1993 Accusation (Jordan Chandler) and Settlement

• Brief summary of the allegations Jordan Chandler made and the $23M settlement.
• Autopsy findings after Jackson’s death reportedly did not align with Chandler’s descriptions, casting doubt.
• Settlement doesn’t equal guilt, but increases suspicion (13:44–14:59).
• Quote:
  • “Twenty-three million means there was something there, you think... there was enough evidence to look bad and he didn’t want to show it.” – Podcast Co-host (13:44)

4. Gavin Arvizo’s Allegations and Media Frenzy

• Gavin, a young cancer survivor, and his family became close to Jackson, staying at Neverland.
• After the Bashir documentary, public scrutiny intensified; Jackson’s team attempted “damage control” with positive video testimonials from the Arvizo family.
• Emily suggests family motivations shifted when financial support ended (17:24–19:05).

5. Neverland Search, Evidence, and Legal Nuance

• Police searched Neverland, finding a black briefcase with adult (not child) pornography.
• Access to Jackson’s bedroom, keypad codes, and questions about purposeful vs. accidental exposure (24:02–25:18).
• Rumors of Jackson "partying in Vegas with German teenage boys" during this time are discussed and dismissed as media exaggeration (26:23–27:27).

6. The Trial: Key Personalities and Strategies

• Jackson’s lead defense attorney, Thomas Mesereau, is celebrated for dismantling prosecution witnesses, particularly around the timeline and authenticity of “pornographic” evidence.
• The problematic past of Arvizo’s mother, Janet, including welfare fraud and prior lawsuits, is explored as defense ammunition (37:16–39:44).
• Quote:
  • “The defense did a good job of establishing that this family are opportunists…” – Emily Simpson (39:54)

7. Trial Dynamics, Witnesses, and Tactics

• The prosecution’s reliance on the Bashir documentary backfired as the jury and courtroom were “bopping along” to Jackson’s music, possibly undermining the case’s gravity (41:09–41:51).
• Star Arvizo’s testimony, undermined by Mesereau’s timeline correction (magazine published after alleged incident), is singled out (41:51–42:35).
• Michael Jackson’s dramatic late arrival to court in pajamas is discussed as a likely sympathy stunt (43:56–45:09).

8. Key Defense Testimonies

• Macaulay Culkin and Brett Barnes testified for Jackson, denying any abuse.
• Noted that accusers sometimes change their stories years later, often as new lawsuits against Jackson's estate are pursued (59:03–60:22).

9. Public Opinion, Jury, and Notable Observations

• Fans’ unwavering defense of Jackson is critiqued as “not a defense” (31:06).
• Comparison to the OJ Simpson trial—celebrity status possibly influencing jury deliberations (32:30–32:48).

10. Aftermath and Ongoing Allegations

• Even after acquittal, Jackson’s reputation never recovered. The documentary frames this as a permanent stain (65:27–66:46).
• Posthumous lawsuits (esp. by the Casio family, formerly staunch defenders) are seen as financially motivated, especially when settlements run out (68:11–71:50).
• Estate’s net worth has soared posthumously (up to $2–3 billion) (60:24).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I think Michael Jackson was just trying to show his human side, his humanity." – Emily Simpson (11:57)
• “He did not do his due diligence in regard to Martin Bashir because Martin Bashir procured that interview with Princess Diana by fraud...” – Emily Simpson (09:53)
• “If you really have evidence in your home that is damaging, would you put it in a bag and hand it to a friend and tell them to get rid of it? That doesn’t make any sense.” – Emily Simpson (29:19)
• “All you need is one football fan on that jury and that’s it.” – Podcast Co-host (referencing influence of celebrity, 32:30)
• “I find him asexual. I don’t find him to be a child molester... I think he just wanted to have kids.” – Emily Simpson (57:57)
• The Co-host pokes fun at Emily’s conspiracy musings: “According to you, no one dies. That’s famous.” (67:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps (MM:SS) | |-------------------------------------|--------------------------| | Setting up the Michael Jackson Trial| 07:10–08:52 | | Martin Bashir’s Documentary | 09:12–11:56 | | 1993 Settlement Discussion | 13:44–14:59 | | Gavin Arvizo and Aftermath | 15:02–19:37 | | Neverland Search & Evidence | 24:02–25:18 | | Defense’s approach on family’s credibility | 37:16–39:44 | | Trial Strategy: Key Cross-examination | 41:51–42:35 | | Michael’s Pajama Stunt & Sympathy | 43:56–45:09 | | Macaulay Culkin and Brett Barnes Testimony| 59:03–60:22 | | Casio Family’s Lawsuit Against Estate| 68:11–71:50 | | Verdict & Legacy | 65:27–66:46 |

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Final Thoughts & Reflections

• Emily's main takeaway is that Jackson’s psychological stunting and arrested development led to inappropriate but non-criminal behavior; she rejects that he was a predator.
• The co-host challenges her, noting the pattern of “questionable evidence,” and highlights how posthumous lawsuits muddy public understanding.
• They agree that Jackson's trial would likely play out very differently in today’s era of constant surveillance and digital records.

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Overall Tone

The tone is open, questioning, and occasionally playful—with a strong undercurrent of legal skepticism balanced with empathy. Emily often adopts a defense-oriented, “see both sides” approach, while her co-host interjects critical reminders about circumstantial evidence and celebrity bias.

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Useful for:

• Anyone wanting a comprehensive overview of the Michael Jackson trial and the controversies around it.
• Listeners interested in the intersection between celebrity, media, and criminal justice.
• Those curious about how historical cases are re-examined through modern media and evolving societal standards.

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Transcript

[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

Hi guys. Welcome to an episode of Legally Brunette. I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane. Shane. All right, first of all, before we get into the bulk of what we're going to talk about today, which is the verdict, the Michael Jackson verdict, which happened back in 2005 and is a new Netflix documentary. I just want to do a headline and you know, I get my headlines, you know, Instagram. Yes. And I'm sure. Did you see this? The Brazilian woman that the tragedy in Brazil when she was. What is it? Bungee jumping?

[Podcast Co-host]

No, you told me about it. It's not really something I try to look for.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I didn't try to look for it either, but.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, you did. I saw your search history. You were looking for bungee jumping woman, like something. No, but I'm searched for it.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I'm. How would I know to search for it unless I heard of it?

[Nissan Rogue Host]

I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

A 21 year old Brazilian woman named Maria Eduardo Rodriguez de fritas died on June 13 after being launched off a 130 foot bridge during a rope jump in Sao Paulo without a rope attached to her harness. Authorities allege employees of the excursion company failed to secure her safety equipment before the. They keep calling it a jump.

[Podcast Co-host]

My understanding is they didn't even attach a bungee cord to her. My limited understanding is she had a harness, did everything went through the motion except for attaching the bungee cord to her.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I don't think there was a bungee cord.

[Podcast Co-host]

Literally just threw her off. And they literally. It's not like she jumped. They threw her off.

[Emily Simpson]

No, that's why I said when they keep talking about, you know, her. They failed to secure her safety equipment before the jump. It was not a. She did not jump.

[Podcast Co-host]

It's not safety equipment. It's like the bungee cord. It's like.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think they failed.

[Podcast Co-host]

Would be like backup stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I think they failed to do both. I don't think they attached the bungee cord or a safety cord. Video footage of the incident shows the rope Was lying on the ground near Maria, but nothing was attached to her when they threw her off. Maria's fiance was there and witnessed her fall to her death. Two employees fled the scene. Can you imagine? They just like, saw it happen, Saw her hit the ground. They just fled.

[Podcast Co-host]

Did they? They just picked up their paycheck and ran.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I doubt they got a paycheck. I think they just ran. But were found by police shortly after. People were questioned by police. Three men who worked for the company. Their ages were 27, 32 and 42. They were arrested on charges of reckless homicide. Their lawyers maintain the men were experienced operators with no prior fatalities. But officials alleged the team lacked proper credentials and authorization to operate at the site. An investigation into liability is ongoing. You know, I would tell you that is. I would never want. First of all, I don't want to bungee jump, period. I don't want to jump off of anything. I'm scared of heights.

[Podcast Co-host]

That's not true.

[Emily Simpson]

What are you talking about?

[Podcast Co-host]

Didn't you jump off like a 60 foot cliff once into water?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, the cenotes. Yeah, that was on the show and I did, and I'll never do that again and knock myself out. But I'm saying bungee jump off of. There's no water below. When you bungee jump, I don't know, you have to make sure all your safety things work. I'm just saying I wouldn't want to bungee jump, period. But then bungee jump in another country like Brazil. I just don't think they have the regulations like we do in the. The United States where they're checking up on safety equipment and they have to go through training and all the things.

[Podcast Co-host]

Maybe. So even, Even with the safety stuff here, sometimes there's incidents. So, I mean, even. So imagine if there's none. So you know you're gonna be throwing people off cliff without any safety harnesses.

[Emily Simpson]

Why is that normal that they launch people off? They.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't know. Because I saw that image and I didn't know what it was and I didn't care to click on it. And then, then later when you told me what was going on and then I saw that image again, I was like, oh, is that what that is? Like they're literally holding her up high, like crowd surfing.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

And then they. They throw her.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but I. I didn't know if that was normal protocol at that jump that people don't just. I mean, normally with bungee jumping, you just jump off of something. But she lived long enough to make it to the hospital. I think she was alive still then. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

You know how long the jump was, how far?

[Emily Simpson]

They said like 40 meters or something.

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Oh, wow.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, so we'll continue to follow that and see what happens with the people that were arrested for reckless homicide happens with that site. Let's move on to the Michael Jackson the Verdict. I thought it was interesting that Netflix released Michael Jackson the Verdict around the same time frame that the Michael biopic came out in theaters.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't think it was coincidence.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't think I'm. I don't think it was a coincidence either.

[Podcast Co-host]

You sounded like you, you were surprised.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I'm not. But I'm saying I wonder if Netflix knew that the Michael movie was coming out and then thought we must also make a documentary.

[Podcast Co-host]

Absolutely.

[Emily Simpson]

And, and release it at the same time.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't think it was coincidence.

[Emily Simpson]

So the new Netflix documentary, it's called Michael Jackson the Verdict follows the investigation and 2005 trial of Michael Jackson after he was accused of sexually abusing 13 year old cancer survivor Gavin Arviso. First of all, I was thinking about where I was in 2005 because I did not follow this trial the way I would follow it now in present day. The way we follow, or at least me, the way I follow true CR time.

[Podcast Co-host]

And he didn't have Instagram back then.

[Emily Simpson]

I, I know, right? But 2005, I was graduating from law school, so I don't know, I just, I don't remember. I didn't know much about the verdict other than he was acquitted. And then he, he went to trial and then he was accused of a lot of.

[Podcast Co-host]

The amount of coverage. The amount of coverage was like, I don't know, was Court TV covering it, for example? And then you'd have to. It was, you know, unedited. It's just hours and hours of footage. And then you'd come home in the evening, maybe turn on the TV and get caught up with some news segment that might tell you what happened that day.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

That was the coverage back then.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. It's not as easily at your fingertips like it is now. The way you can look at a phone and Instagram. The documentary explores how the allegations grew after Michael's controversial documentary interview with Martin Bashir and the chaotic criminal trial that followed. First of all, this Martin Bashir, this is where it all comes from. Martin Bashir made a documentary about Michael Jackson.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Just.

[Podcast Co-host]

Just about Michael Jackson.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, it was called like Living with Michael Jackson.

[Podcast Co-host]

That's the one where he goes in the Vegas store and he buys everything.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. He points, he's like, I have that and that and how many that and that.

[Podcast Co-host]

And it's all these like random things.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

That no one wants.

[Emily Simpson]

The reason Michael Jackson wanted to do the documentary or the interview with him is because he did a documentary style interview with Princess Diana.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

And so Michael Jackson clearly. Or his team.

[Podcast Co-host]

So he thought that was like the, a high bar of a. Yeah, he journalistic documentary.

[Emily Simpson]

He did not do his due diligence in regard to Martin Bashir because Martin Bashir procured that interview with Princess Diana by fraud. He actually manipulated documents that looked like people, employees and family members of her family were receiving payouts from the press to give information about her. And so he used that as an enticement and to build a rapport with her. Like I, I have this information, I'm sharing it with you. And these people are all selling you out. You know, they're taking money, but they

[Podcast Co-host]

weren't selling her out.

[Emily Simpson]

No. He falsified documents that made it look like payments were being made to these people to get information about her. And then I believe she trusted him because she felt like he was giving her inside information that she wasn't aware of. So then she agreed to do this interview with him. And then it was learned later that that was all fraudulent, that he, he fraudulently manipulated these, this documents and that that wasn't true.

[Podcast Co-host]

Make it look like he was looking out for her.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

Or he was exposing people.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And I don't think Michael Jackson knew that because I don't think he ever would have wanted Martin Bashir to do the documentary interview.

[Podcast Co-host]

Sell you out.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

For a buck.

[Emily Simpson]

And let's be honest, the whole catalyst of his 2005 trial is because of the documentary that Martin Bashir did on him, that aired it, that sparked it, because at the end of the documentary, you know, they bring out the Gavin Arviso, the 13 year old with the cancer, and Michael Jackson talks about how they're so close, they're holding hands, they're sitting on the couch together and that they sleep in the same bedroom together and share a bed. And then Martin Bashir obviously included that in the documentary and then they aired it publicly and millions of people watched it.

[Podcast Co-host]

And then you think he got lucky with that or you think he knew that that was something happening and he

[Emily Simpson]

kind of, I think he was hoping that there was something scandalous and that

[Podcast Co-host]

he was probably, he was looking for something.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

Whatever it was.

[Emily Simpson]

And I think Michael Jackson was just trying to show his human side, his humanity. Showing that he does that with Oprah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Was that before. Remember, he did that with Oprah. He did, like an hour, you know, special on one evening where he walked her around the ranch. And that was very much an inside look at Michael Jackson's house. That was year. Many years prior, I think. So then he wanted to do something similar again, right? Like show people himself.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I think he wanted to. And I. I think the press was always hounding him and calling him Wacko Jacko and making fun of everything he did. They were hard on him. The press was hard on him.

[Podcast Co-host]

People were.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And I think he wanted to show another side and show his human side and show all the good that he does. And then it did nothing except to

[Podcast Co-host]

make him indicted for child, another level of pedophilia.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, let's start in 1993, because this is when the first accusation came out. This was when Michael Jackson is accused of molesting Jordan Chandler. Now, in the documentary towards. I think it's more towards the end. They do make reference to this 1993 incident. Jordan reportedly describes markings on Michael's body, his genitalia, leading investigators to obtain a warrant to photograph his body. The Chandler family later settles with him for around 23 million. The allegations permanently follow Michael's public image and become a major reference point even years later. I also read. I don't know how true this is. I read there's also an affidavit somewhere. I. I read reference to this that the. The child made allegations as to what Michael Jackson's, you know, genitalia looked like. But then I was reading a lot that when he died in 2009, his autopsy did not match what the child had said. So again, I'm left questioning a lot of it.

[Podcast Co-host]

But 23 million. 23 million means there was something there, you think. Doesn't necessarily. I'm not saying criminal, but there was enough evidence to look bad and he didn't want to show it.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host]

I know let's say there's. It was gonna surface that the child did sleep in his bed and saw Michael Jackson naked once. And let's say it was by accident. And let's say Michael Jackson was squeaky clean and he really was just trying to host and entertain children for that sake. But if that surface, that would look bad, even worse than he was already looking to the public. So he settled for 23 million. Because I remember Elon Musk had an accusation made against him. And he sold for 500 grand. He was worth hundreds of billions at the time. 500 grand is. If they took that and ran from a mega, mega billionaire, that means there was nothing there. And he just, just said, here, take this and leave me alone. But 23 million from a guy that was only worth probably a couple hundred million?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't. I don't know. Because then later on, I mean, we're going to talk about more, more settlements. So I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host]

Further my point, something is there. That's enough.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I refuse to believe.

[Podcast Co-host]

All right, he's the King of Pop, right? He couldn't have done it. No.

[Emily Simpson]

Early in the 2000s, Gavin Arviso is battling cancer when he meets Michael Jackson. Michael takes Gavin and his family to Neverland Ranch and they all become very close. Gavin's family reportedly struggles financially but refuses to sell stories about Michael. Then we get to 2002. This is Martin Bashir's documentary. We talked a little bit about Martin Bashir already. Michael agrees to film a documentary with Martin Bashir, who became famous after interviewing Princess Diana. Cameras follow Michael through his daily life, including his time with a boy named Gavin. Gavin appears frequently in the documentary, recounting his experiences with Michael. And Michael openly admits that he shares his bed with children, but insists there is nothing sexual about it. Michael's behavior in the documentary, specifically his scenes with Gavin, shocks many viewers and reignites discussion about the 1993 accusations. Here's my question. He's accused back in 1993 of molesting a young boy. He settles for 23 million. Clearly that was difficult for him to go through.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

What lesson did you not take away from that?

[Podcast Co-host]

You can get out of trouble. I have money. I'll just get out of trouble.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I. And I don't understand the people around him. You're talking about the most famous man in the world that has a ton of money and a ton of publicity and everybody knows where he is at all times and what he's doing. And the fact that he doesn't have more people around him saying, maybe that's not a good idea. Maybe you shouldn't bring him into this adults. Maybe you shouldn't hold his hand or talk about how you like. I don't understand where. There's no advisement that are saying Michael, maybe there was. I don't know,

[Podcast Co-host]

maybe there wasn't. He didn't listen.

[Emily Simpson]

In 2003, this is after this documentary comes out, the Martin Bashir documentary. Gavin is identified by the public media Outlets identify the boy in the documentary as Gavin Arviso. And the public begins comparing Gavin's situation to the earlier situation with Jordan Chandler. Michael hires lawyers and private investigators to follow the Arviso family as scrutiny from the public increases. And they recruit the Arvizo family to stay at Neverland so that they're protected from the media. I do believe that he probably wanted to do damage control at this point because the media is in a frenzy after this documentary. Right. And they want to find this boy and they want to find his family. I'm sure everybody's scrambling to find him first to do an interview.

[Podcast Co-host]

He's already guilty now, Right. And it's already all over the place. Guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

I would assume the fact that Michael Jackson is like, no, you should hide out here at Neverland. I'm sure his intentions were good as to, like, let's get you protected. He also has him. I don't know if it's at his direction or his attorney's direction, probably his attorney's direction, that they have the family with Gavin record a video talking about how Michael has been nothing but kind to them and supportive and that, you know, I mean, they want to get. They're building evidence. Right?

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Janet, this is the mother allegedly tells a family friend that they are listening to everything we say. She says the family wanted to leave Neverland but felt trapped. Gavin is eventually interviewed by authorities and child psychologists, and he accuses Michael Jackson of sexual abuse. Gavin tells investigators specific details and recalls a black briefcase which contained pornography. I don't know. This is the way I look at this, okay? They were perfectly happy to take his money, to go on trips, to stay at Neverland and to. To go on tour, to partake in all. To partake in everything. To. To be there all the time. Then once there's a media frenzy and they have people reaching out constantly and trying to find them, all of a sudden the narrative flips. I also think that the narrative with this family flipped because I think Michael Jackson probably tried to separate himself from this family and thought, oh, I needed this. I need to disassociate with this. And I think they didn't like that. They probably weren't getting the funding or the friendliness or the tours or the. The.

[Podcast Co-host]

Wouldn't that make. Want to go to the media, though, to get. To get back in front of the camera?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, they do, because shortly after that, I'm saying one minute they're recording a video saying that he's been nothing but kind and generous and that they love him so much and he's like a dad to them and he's done all these amazing things. And then I think Michael Jackson tried to disassociate from them because of these allegations in the documentary. And then when they're not getting the financial supporter all the things again from him, that's when the narrative flips. And all of a sudden he molested Gavin is what Gavin claims.

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[Emily Simpson]

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why is it always chaos when we link up? Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the Rogue's ready like that for real. Rain, dirt, whatever available. All wheel drive, five modes. We still outside and they got some kick to that turbo torque is crazy. The most in its class. It moves, moves. Rog doesn' mess around and peep the space merch on merch gear mics. All of it fits. Load up. We out. 2026 Nissan Rogue built for all of it. Auto Pacific segmentation. 2026 Rogue vs latest in market competitors in the X SUV mainstream midsize class, excluding electrical vehicles based on manufactured websites.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which is a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology and digital channels are Being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari

[Ashley Nyx]

this is Ashley I from the Almost Famous podcast. Can I be honest for a second? Some mornings I look in the mirror and I think why do I look this tired? Puffiness around the eyes Dullness? Because sometimes stress starts showing up on your face before you even realize it. And that's why I've been loving this Holistic goddess organic castor oil rol with frankincense. No crazy chemicals, no expensive treatments. It's just organic castor oil frankincense in this rose quartz roller that feels so good on tired stressed skin. I look for anything that can de puff me and this really did my under eyes look brighter? My face looked way more refreshed. It's almost like my face just exhaled. So try the Holistic Goddess organic Castor oil roll on with frankincense yourself. Use my promo code ashley@tryhg do

[Emily Simpson]

for

[Ashley Nyx]

15% off promo code [e-mail] ashley nyx

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[Emily Simpson]

So In November of 2003 they get a search warrant for the Neverland Ranch the Santa Barbara county investigators execute a search warrant at Neverland Ranch as part of the investigation into the allegations of child molestation. Investigators report reportedly locate the black briefcase that Gavin had described. It contains pornography just like he claimed. Now that bothered me. So I did some more research on it. It was a black briefcase. It wasn't Michael's bedroom. It was locked away in a closet. The kids however had access to his room and they there was a keypad on his room and the kids knew how to enter and exit.

[Podcast Co-host]

Now, what was the point of the keypad had?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. But the kids could come and go. The kids could come and go freely also. Just one other further point. You can take this however you want. The pornography that was found in the black briefcase was not child pornography. It was adult pornography.

[Podcast Co-host]

So it's still inappropriate for kids to be.

[Emily Simpson]

It is, but here's, here's what I'm saying. I'm trying to see both sides of this. Did the kids find it because they had access to go in and out of his home and his bedroom? And did they, Are they young kids that found pornography and looked at it

[Podcast Co-host]

like he didn't allow them to have access to it nor did he care to show it to them?

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

They found it on their own.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Or did they know about it because he showed them? That's what I'm saying. We'll never know. So the kids always had the code to the door to get into his bedroom and into private, I guess, areas of the home. But the mom did. Well, she claimed she did not know.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't know. So the parents say they didn't have the keypad code.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but the kids did.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, that's not that far fetched because did the parents ever stay at the house to, to need the keypad? Like if the kids are there all the time and playing and this and that and they have access to things but the parents aren't there, they just drop them off, pick them up, like, I don't know, lots of things that happen.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I think the parents stay. I think it's such a huge estate that they literally stay there all the time and, and use all of his fancy things and they are living their life. That's what I think. Police issue an arrest warrant for Michael. Michael is in Las Vegas during this search of Neverland. And rumors rapidly through the media reports start to circulate alleging that Michael Jackson is partying in Vegas with German teenage boys. I don't know this allegation.

[Podcast Co-host]

How long are you going to claim that he might be.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host]

It.

[Emily Simpson]

That sounded ridiculous to me. I was like, what? What this guy? No, I'm sorry. The media was always hounding him. The media was always after him. The media was always trying to make him out to be a freak. I don't know if I believe that while his Neverland ranch is being raided for because child molestation charges or allegations that he said, I'm gonna go to Vegas and drink and I'm gonna hang out with Young German boys. That sounds ridiculous to me. Michael finally negotiates a voluntary surrender with prosecutors, and he flies back to California, is taken into custody in handcuffs. Crowds of fans gather outside the courthouse in support of him, and Michael even stands on top of an SUV outside the courtroom to wave to his fans. Fans, I do remember that scene. I didn't follow the trial back in 2005. I didn't check in on it daily. I don't really know the ins and outs of the trial, but I do remember the. The vision or just the visual? The visual of him climbing on top of the SUV and greeting the fans and them going wild.

[Podcast Co-host]

Crazy. Did he have kids at this point?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I believe so.

[Podcast Co-host]

He did. When did he hang him outside the window and cover it up in a rag?

[Emily Simpson]

A blanket, I think. I don't remember that. I don't know.

[Podcast Co-host]

Was that pre. Pre pedophilia or post?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. I probably pre. 2004. He prepares for trial. Michael's family publicly defends him in interviews, and friends and former associates are questioned about their experiences at Neverland. Former associate Vincent Amen, who was in the documentary, discovered suspicious magazines allegedly connected to Michael and his longtime assistant named Frank. Magazines, okay, this part of the documentary, I was like, what now? What is going on? Okay, there is this guy named Vincent. They interview him in the documentary. He only worked for Michael Jackson for, like, a year. It was like 2002 to 2003. He knew Frank Cassio. He went by, like, Frank something else, but he's from the Casio family. Frank Casio knew Michael Jackson from the time he was very, very young. And he worked his way up through the ranks and ended up being, like, a personal assistant to Michael Jackson and was very, very close to him. Okay, this guy that they interview, Vincent Eamon says during this interview on the documentary that Frank came to him and gave him, like, a Nike duffel bag and said that he cleaned out things from. This is when Neverland's being raided. And he says that he gives him this bag and says, you have to hide this stuff. You know, it's things from Neverland and I don't want the police to find it. So you take it and, you know, get rid of it or whatever.

[Podcast Co-host]

Supposedly, what's inside this bag.

[Emily Simpson]

So supposedly he makes a video recording of going through the bag and there's a magazine inside that has, like, young boys depicted in it. And then there's a section in the back where you can order videos and they're circled with a black marker. Here's My.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. How you gonna get out of this one?

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. He claims that he confronted Frank about it. Like, what is this? And Frank said, oh, that was a phase that Michael and I went through. We don't do that anymore. Here's. Here's my takeaway. If you really have evidence in your home that is damaging, would you put it in a bag and hand it to a friend and tell them to get rid of it? That doesn't make any sense.

[Podcast Co-host]

I'm sorry, was this child pornography?

[Emily Simpson]

It wasn't considered. I don't know if it was legally. I. I don't remember exactly if it was. It was just young. I think it was like, young boys. There were also two. Two books that were found at Neverland that also had young boys in them that were. It was like borderline. It wasn't considered pornography. It was more considered art. It wasn't illegal, but it was young boys. My question is, if you really have evidence in your home that is damaging and you want to get rid of it, why would you put it in a bag and hand it to someone and trust that that person is randomly

[Podcast Co-host]

like, oh, hey, in case you didn't know, Michael's kind of a creep. Here's the evidence.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Please hide it.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, like, that's pretty much what happened.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, yeah, and it doesn't make any sense because then that guy goes through it and records. Records it, and then claims that there's this evidence inside that recording in the documentary they did. But it was really hard to see because. I don't know. I mean, this is. Oh, yeah, this is back then 2004 or something. So I assume it's not an iPhone.

[Ashley Nyx]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

He's got, like a camcorder that he's, like, recording with.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. It just. To me, it just doesn't make sense. If I want to get rid of evidence, I'm not going to hand it off to someone I've only known for

[Podcast Co-host]

a year that the evidence was hooked. Like, it was. I. I planted by this guy that had been working there for the Jacksons forever.

[Emily Simpson]

Maybe. I'm just saying.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, you were. You know what bothered me about this case?

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

What?

[Podcast Co-host]

During the time was all the fans outside the courthouse, not just out there to kind of be a part of it and see what's going on, but, like, the ones that are pretty much insistent that he couldn't be a criminal because he's the king of Pop. And it's like, that's not a defense offense.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I know it.

[Podcast Co-host]

Also, you're Kind of leaning towards that right now.

[Emily Simpson]

I. Well, I just am offering an alternative perspective. But, you know, I agree because I was always so bothered by. Remember when we talked about Wade Wilson and all those women that were convinced that he was innocent because he was just good looking.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

You know, it was like, how could he do it? He's good looking. And it had nothing to do with facts. It just had to do with the fact that he was good looking.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

However, Michael Jackson was acquitted at the end of the day on all charges. So, anyway. All right, I'll just throw that out there. All right. In the documentary.

[Podcast Co-host]

But he wasn't found innocent.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Podcast Co-host]

He was found not guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

He was found not guilty. I agree. He was found not guilty.

[Podcast Co-host]

Legally, there wasn't enough evidence to charge him. The jury find him guilty.

[Emily Simpson]

The jury did not think so.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yes. And they probably had a few fans on the jury. That's all they need.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, they do start out by saying that in the beginning of the trial, the first thing the prosecution did was, was show the documentary that Martin Bashir made, and it had a lot of Michael Jackson music in it and that they were all just grooving. They were all just bopping along to it. So I don't know if the prosecution, if that was such a good idea, because I think you're just reminded of, like, I'll never forget what talented he is.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't know why, but I asked my dad once, like when I was a kid, I said, oh, like, you think OJ Will go to jail or something like that? And he said, no. I said, why? And he goes, because all you need is one football fan on that jury and that's it. And that's always the case.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

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[Emily Simpson]

Hey, stay in your lane.

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[Nissan Rogue Host]

From the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Because this is our life backstage on the road. It's loud, messy, real. And that's the Best part, whole crew, no plan, just moving. Good thing Nissan builds for that kind of chaos. Not just test tracks, real life scenes, late nights, road trips, all of it. That's why it holds up. Nissan was ranked number one in initial quality among mainstream brands by J.D.

[Podcast Co-host]

power.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Ye yeah, you can tell. 2026 Nissan Rogue built for what really happens for J.D. power 2025 US Initial Quality Study Award information, visit JD Power.com awards awards based on 2025 model year. Newer models may be shown.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

this

[Ashley Nyx]

is Ashley I from the Almost Famous podcast. Can I be honest for a second? Some mornings I look in the mirror and I think, why do I look this tired? Puffiness around the eyes? Dullness? Because sometimes stress starts showing up on your face before you even realize it. And that's why I've been loving this holistic goddess organic castor oil Roman with frankincense. No crazy chemicals, no expensive treatments. It's just organic castor oil frankincense in this rose quartz roller that feels so good on tired stressed skin. I look for anything that can depuff me and this really did my under eyes look brighter? My face looked way more refreshed. It's almost like my face just exhaled. So try the holistic goddess organic castor oil Roll on with frankincense yourself. Use my promo code [e-mail] ashley for 15% off promo code [e-mail] ashley nix.

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

That's Knix leak proof. Underwear isn't just for one moment. It's for all the everyday moments you didn't realize leak proof underwear could make easier. Maybe it's day one of your period, maybe it's a long travel day, maybe it's hot outside, you're on the move and you just want to feel fresh. Their leak proof underwear comes in a range of absorbencies from light to ultra and helps protect against periods, light leaks, sweat and everyday surprises. And because they look and feel like real underwear, they're soft, invisible underclothes and machine washable. No extra hassle, no complicated routine, just dependable protection. You can wash and re wear. See why millions have made the switch to leak proof underwear? Visit nix.com that's knix.com and use code flow15 for 15 off. That's kn I X.com code flow15.

[Emily Simpson]

So in the documentary the Jackson family lawyer his name's Brian Oxman frequently speaks on the case. Something that was not mentioned in the documentary about Brian Oxman was that his California State Bar records show that his license status as disbarred disciplinary proceedings found that Oxman had mixed personal and client funds in a trust account use the account to hide assets from creditors and failed to cooperate with investigators and did not report a judicial sanction as required under professional conduct rules. Let's go back to Gavin Orviso and his family. That's the. The child that 13 year old, 13 year old that claimed that he molested him. This is in 2004.5ish. They do do show. They do show a little bit I believe in the end of the documentary that the family and the mother specifically had been had been charged with welfare fraud. I believe and she had also made an accusation. I believe she was arrested or detained outside. I think it was a JC penny right outside of JCPenney for I believe shoplifting. But then she claimed that the whoever detained her sexually assaulted her or something and then they ended up settling for like 150 000. Then she did not disclose that she got paid 150000 and she was on welfare. So then it was welfare fraud. Also Chris Tucker and they left this part out of the Netflix documentary.

[Podcast Co-host]

Somehow they found their way to the Neverland Ranch.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

How did they.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what I'm saying.

[Podcast Co-host]

These people.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what I'm saying. I don't. Those people find him well and how does he not vet people better? That's the part I don't understand. They found all these things about the family after you know he made the allegations against Michael. I believe Michael had a conversation with his Attorney and said, dig up the dirt on this family because they need it as a defense. Right. Which was a smart thing to do before. But I'm saying, in what world were people not looking into these people that are inside his home, traveling with him, going in and out of his bedroom, taking advantage of him? He's buying them, you know, who knows what, and taking him on tour. Why are you not vetting them? Them prior.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Why are you digging into them after the fact, after the allegations are made? Also, one more thing. Chris Tucker, you know the actor Chris Tucker, he also testified they didn't show this in the documentary, but he testified that he also had experience with the same child, Gavin Arviso, who had reached out to him and had used the whole. Cancer. He did have cancer. So it's not a cancer scam. He does have cancer.

[Podcast Co-host]

I would say the parents probably, probably leverage that.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Well.

[Emily Simpson]

But Chris Tucker testified that he found Gavin to be extremely cunning for.

[Podcast Co-host]

For his age.

[Emily Simpson]

For his age. And that he was consistently reaching out and wanting money and trips and things from Chris Tucker. So I think the defense did a good job of establishing that this family are opportunist and had tried everything possible to get money and free trips and things from celebrities.

[Podcast Co-host]

And so now here's just another one

[Emily Simpson]

of those times and one more fun fact. So the mother's name, Gavin.

[Podcast Co-host]

Bring on the fun.

[Emily Simpson]

This is a fun fact. Gavin Arviso's mother is named Janet. She ended up divorcing her husband, his father. I believe there's some abuse allegations, domestic violence. They end up divorcing. She remarries a man whose last name is Jackson. So her current name is Janet Jackson.

[Podcast Co-host]

That was fun. Wasn't that a fun fact? Yes.

[Emily Simpson]

Thank you.

[Podcast Co-host]

Janet Jackson.

[Emily Simpson]

Her name is Janet Jackson. All right. In 2005, the trial begins. Fans and media outlets from around the world gather outside the courthouse every single day. And Michael regularly rolls his car windows down to wave to his supporters. Despite reported death threats, Michael's lead defense attorney is Thomas Mesereau, an amazing attorney, by the way. I was impressed just from a little bit I saw in the documentary.

[Podcast Co-host]

He was.

[Emily Simpson]

He was. He was a good criminal defense attorney. He was originally represented by Mark Garagos and Benjamin Brafman, but they were replaced. The lead prosecutor was Santa Barbara County District attorney Thomas Sneddon Jr. And cameras were banned from the courtroom on day two of the trial. Martin Bashir, the documentary creator, becomes the prosecution first major witness. Prosecutors play the full documentary for the jury and Michael's music that was used throughout the film had the whole courtroom dancing. I told you that the juries were just enjoying the show. And I think even the prosecutor said that he couldn't stop like tapping his foot to it.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh my gosh, they couldn't even resist.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, I mean it's Michael Jackson trial. Day six and seven. Gavin's brother, Star Arviso takes the stand. Star claims that the pornography was shown to them at Neverland. The defense shows Star a pornographic magazine and he claims that that is the same one that Michael showed him. Mesero proves that it is not because it was published at a much later date. That was so smart of Mesero. That was such a good criminal defense move. Yeah, you know, he said he holds up a magazine and he's like, is this the magazine that Michael Jackson showed you? And the kid's like, yeah, that was it. And he's, he's probably like are you sure? How sure are you? You, are you 100 sure? Yes, that's it. That's what he showed me. And then he goes oh really? Because this was just published.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Brilliant. Star also claims that he witnessed Michael Jackson molest Gavin. Mesero points out that Michael's bedroom has a bell at the front door so he can hear when someone walks in, which would prevent him from being accidentally caught touching Gavin. Star's testimony is viewed as a major win for the defense. I think Mesero did such a good job that anytime the prosecution put on a witness I think he just destroyed, destroyed them. He destroyed their credibility. He did the same thing with them.

[Podcast Co-host]

Does he represent anyone else famous or like gargoyles is always like everywhere. So what about him?

[Emily Simpson]

I believe they made mention that he was a pretty much like the top dog, but I, I don't remember what other source.

[Podcast Co-host]

Maybe he's not like Hollywood's attorney like Garagos is. He's always like on every single hot case.

[Emily Simpson]

Maybe so before trial. Day nine. Michael hurts himself the night before on one of the biggest days at trial when Gavin Arviso is going to take the sand. So the night before Gavin Arviso, the 13 year old takes the stand. Michael Jackson ends up at the er. That night Michael asked his security guard to take him to the hospital. And Michael continues to request drugs from the doctors to help with pain. He's at the hospital. The trial starts that day. Gavin Arviso is going to testify. The judge says where's Michael Jackson? And his defense attorney is like, he's not here, he's in the hospital. He got hurt and he asked for, you know, a recess, continuance, whatever. And the judge says he has one hour to get here.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Or I'm going to hold him in contempt. So Michael Jackson.

[Podcast Co-host]

Well, because this is the key witness, right.

[Emily Simpson]

Michael Jackson leaves the hospital in a motorcade. He's got his pajamas on.

[Podcast Co-host]

I know he had like. And a mask on, I think. Right. I don't remember he was wearing masks before anyone wore masks.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but then this motorcade's going, you know, 100 miles an hour down the freeway. It reminded me of, of O.J. when he was in the Bronco and they were all following him on the freeway because now you've got, got all the media following him from the hospital back to the courthouse. Right. He shows up and he walks into the courthouse, but he's in like pajamas. In a robe. And I think, I don't know if this was on purpose or if it just worked out well, but he looks sad.

[Podcast Co-host]

Describe it for, for listeners. So he's in pajama pants.

[Emily Simpson]

I think he put a jacket on. Did he put like.

[Podcast Co-host]

He tried to put a, a jacket on and he has a, an umbrella with like flowers all over.

[Emily Simpson]

It's a parasol.

[Podcast Co-host]

It's a what?

[Emily Simpson]

A parasol.

[Podcast Co-host]

Parasol.

[Emily Simpson]

I've just, it's just a fancy way to say an umbrella. Cuz he's, you're like in Paris and you have like a little umbrella to keep the sun out of your face.

[Podcast Co-host]

Okay, so he has a parasol song.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

And what's that in his hand? He's got like, he's got like voodoo stuff in his hand or a fishing pole or something.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. But I just think him showing up the day that Gavin Arvizo is going to testify against him, looking.

[Podcast Co-host]

He went to the hospital in pajamas. That guy didn't go. Doctors came to that guy. You know what? Doctors come to him.

[Emily Simpson]

He was at the hospital because they, they.

[Podcast Co-host]

I know, but I'm saying he has doctors come to him. So he said, no, I have to go to the hospital and get admitted. So this key witness can't testify. Tomorrow.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Tomorrow.

[Podcast Co-host]

Because if he was just at home and it's like, oh, his doctor's at home comforting him. That wouldn't fly.

[Emily Simpson]

News coverage explodes with many questioning whether Michael was truly sick or trying to delay the trial and the testimony. Michael eventually arrives late to court wearing pajamas and appearing visibly weak. Critics accuse him of playing the victim and putting on a performance for sympathy. Gavin Arvizo takes the stand and says Michael molested him. Twice. He also claims Michael gave him alcohol, which he called Jesus juice. I don't believe that either. I just don't picture Michael Jackson calling alcohol Jesus juice.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah, that sounds corny.

[Emily Simpson]

I just don't. It just.

[Podcast Co-host]

He could do better than that.

[Emily Simpson]

It just. I don't know that this doesn't sit well with me. That's just my personal takeaway from that. Mesero cross examines Gavin aggressively, and Gavin responds with aggression. In turn, his behavior does not bode well for the prosecution. And their star witness becomes a win for the defense. Mesero gets them all messed up and he gets aggressive. And I don't. And his testimony doesn't go over very well. I don't. I. I would think the jury didn't find him believable. Prosecutor Ron Zonen attempts to find additional accusers as the trial goes on. And former Neverland employees testify that Michael lured boys to the ranch. Jason Francia claims Jackson abused him as a child. And prosecutors want to portray Michael as a. A serial pedophile. You know, he had. There were several employees of Michael Jackson's that testified against him, saying that they saw all these things. But then I know on the defense, on cross, Mesero destroyed all of them because they were all disgruntled employees that were fired at some point or were let go at some point.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, they weren't current employees.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't believe so. I believe they were all former employees.

[Podcast Co-host]

Have any young girls or was it always boys?

[Ashley Nyx]

Boys.

[Emily Simpson]

It was always boys that made the allegations. But we're going to get to. At the end. There is a family currently suing the estate here in 2026, and one of the victims is a girl. And then that threw me off too. So I don't find that believable.

[Podcast Co-host]

Anyway, he's not helping me. He's supposed to be innocent.

[Emily Simpson]

No, this. I. I'm gonna get to. I don't believe them either. They already. We'll get to that later. I don't believe them at all.

[Podcast Co-host]

I'm not. I'm not saying he's guilty. Yeah, but he's more guilty than you say he is. It's definitely. I mean, there's all this evidence that's very questionable. I mean, like, it. It definitely brings you to question what the heck is going on there.

[Emily Simpson]

Here.

[Podcast Co-host]

And you're not buying it.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Podcast Co-host]

But you'll see a little fuzzy picture of a someone that says it's Bigfoot. And you say Bigfoot exists. It's real.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

So I know.

[Emily Simpson]

Just trying to make sense okay, here's my takeaway with Michael Jackson. I do. I think that he did some questionable weird things. Yes. Because I think that he.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

I.

[Emily Simpson]

Is psychologically stunted. His growth was psychologically stunted at 10 years old because of what he went through as a child. He never had a childhood. His dad forced him to work, sing, bring in money, be the star from a very, very young age. He had no childhood. I think his wanting to be friends with kids of that age is because mentally he is of that age. I don't think he was ever allowed to progress or grow and become psychologically older. I don't think he has a. A sexual attraction to young boys. I think he likes to hang out with young boys because that's where he.

[Podcast Co-host]

That's socially. That's socially.

[Emily Simpson]

That's where he is. Yes.

[Podcast Co-host]

Now explain all the other stuff then. Is it all fabricated?

[Emily Simpson]

I do. I do think it's fabricated. I think you're talking about a man who has such enormous wealth and is so famous that everybody is happy to be around him and take advantage of him. Him and go places and live at Neverland and go on private jets and go on tour.

[Podcast Co-host]

He was the biggest.

[Emily Simpson]

And the minute that it's not working out for them or they realize that they can get a payout, they jump on it and they get millions of dollars. And I think people know that they can make allegations because of the fact that he does like to hang out with young boys. I mean, Macaulay Culkin testified at trial. They didn't show his testimony or go into detail about his testimony, but he said that he never, ever did anything sexual wrong, anything ever around him, near him, to him, or to any of the. Of the other boys that were around. So I don't know. Again, that's just my takeaway. June Chandler is Jordan Chandler's mother. She testified about the 1993 allegations. She says Michael cried when she didn't allow Jordan to sleep in his room. So she finally gave in. She says Michael gave her a Cartier bracelet, making her feel like she had sold her son. And she reveals that she has not seen Jordan in years. And the relationship was damaged because of this. I don't know. She. I don't know if that helped or her. I don't know. I just felt badly that the mother and son didn't have a relationship anymore.

[Podcast Co-host]

So, yeah. Corey Feldman. I was just looking up because I remember Corey Feldman, when you mentioned Macaulay Culkin. He too, defended Michael Jackson, at least against his own personal interactions. You know, I Don't know that he testified about anything else. But his own personal interactions were the same as Macaulay Culkin, which is nothing. We just hung out.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, well, I mean, that's the difference. To me, that's my takeaway is when you talk about these kids that were there, that were that age, and they say nothing ever happened, they're not in need of money from him, and they're famous in their own right, and they have money in their own right.

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

And Corey Filman, I remember, if I remember right, he called a lot of people out in Hollywood like they're all sick or. He didn't say they're all sick, but he was claiming that there was a lot of inappropriate stuff going on with kids, you know, trafficking or abusing or even molestate. Like he was. He was calling Pete. He would call it out.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I know.

[Podcast Co-host]

So he's not one to not call it out if it happened.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Trial day 29. Janet Arviso, Gavin's mother, testifies. Janet says she and her children were held against their will at Neverland, and she claims Michael molested Gavin. The defense attacks the family's credibility. Now, the. A lot of the original charges against Michael Jackson in 2005 was the child molestation charges, but there was also conspiracy charges. And I didn't understand the conspiracy. I think the jury was also confused, too, but the conspiracy. I looked more into it, the conspiracy charges where the prosecution was alleging that he was holding this family hostage and not allowing them to leave Neverland, and that in order to do that, he had associates that were also co conspirators in this, but they were unindicted co conspirators, meaning, like the prosecution wasn't interested. Right. They were just going to go after Michael Jackson. Now, the defense easily showed that they weren't being held hostage at Neverland because I believe there was a type of log where you had to sign in and out or keep track of who comes and goes. Those. And it showed that they left the

[Podcast Co-host]

property multiple times on dates in question.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And would go back of their own free will. So I don't. I think it's.

[Podcast Co-host]

How different would it be if. If all that occurred today in 2025 instead of 2005?

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, you mean because of the.

[Podcast Co-host]

Just the digital.

[Emily Simpson]

Digital. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Even like where the phones are, you know, And I'm sure you would have had more cameras on the ranch. You know, his. His Google search history.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, right, right. Okay. I was. I was a little nervous when I was Google searching this Case because we always talk about Google searches. And now here I am, I'm like, do child molesters usually have, like, same research for podcast?

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And then I was like, this seems weird. Anyway, I'm doing these Google searches and I start to think about how you and I talk about Google searches and what they show about people in their, you know, mens rea. What's going on in their mind. And I'm here I am just doing Google searches about child molestation searches on

[Podcast Co-host]

killing your husband, and then something's going to happen to me, and then they're going to look into it.

[Emily Simpson]

No, because listen, if I'm going to Google search killing husbands, I'm going to make sure I do it on the day that we have a podcast about killing husbands. So that I can say.

[Podcast Co-host]

But it's now recorded. I was just doing research as evidence against you for premeditation.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, Brian Oxman, remember, this is. The family attorney reveals that Janet had previously sued JCPenney because a security guard had allegedly molested her. Is that so? He, he. So he probably detains her and then she's like, oh, he touched me inappropriately.

[Podcast Co-host]

Store investigator. And I detained women. I didn't molest any of them.

[Emily Simpson]

No. Did you get any molestation charges against you?

[Podcast Co-host]

If I, if I, if I. If I brought into custody of female, then I immediately went and got a Target female employee to come sit with me.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

And the entire room is on camera.

[Ashley Nyx]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

But I'm saying I think he detained her in like a parking lot or something. So I. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what happened,

[Podcast Co-host]

but I don't know. We weren't allowed to. You're in for Target. You're not allowed to go outside the front doors and detain someone. If they make it past the front door, you have to let them go.

[Emily Simpson]

Now you just told people.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, I know. Secret rule. Yeah, Well, I didn't say that the storm investigators follow that rule. But you just remind me when you said JCPenney, what? He followed her all out in the parking lot. I detained her.

[Emily Simpson]

Where?

[Podcast Co-host]

Like behind a car.

[Emily Simpson]

I. I thought that I had read that he detained her in a park. I wrong about that. I don't know. But Brian Oxman, this is the family attorney, claims what really happened is one of her sons shoplifted and she turned it around to benefit herself and her family. Defense lawyers claim the family are professional scammers. Then Debbie Row testifies. Do you know Debbie Row? Do you know who Debbie Row is?

[Podcast Co-host]

It's the love of his life. Isn't that the mother of his children?

[Emily Simpson]

The mother of his children. And, I mean, she was like the housekeeper or something. Right, Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

I, Okay.

[Podcast Co-host]

I just bet he never, they never touched each other.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, I, I, I doubt. Right. Okay.

[Podcast Co-host]

Didn't, didn't Michael Jackson marry Priscilla Presley because. And, like, make out with her on stage on the end?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. And it was, like, awkward. It was awkward. Yes, I think, because, you know, his dad was the. Her dad's the King of Rock and he's the King of Pop, so, you know, it only makes sense. It's royalty. They like to marry within their lineage. I tried to find this information. It is not out there. I don't know if I wanted to know.

[Podcast Co-host]

Where is she today?

[Emily Simpson]

No, I wanted to know biologically his three children. Like who, like, they don't look like him. And I'm not saying, I mean, I understand there's all types of different families, so it's not that he's not their father. He's there. I'm just saying, from a.

[Podcast Co-host]

You just want to know if they slept together?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, no, I don't want to know. I don't think they slept together. I want to know if, if Debbie Rowe is genetically the mother, which, I don't know if she is. I don't think he's biologically or genetically the father. I think maybe they just did, you know, like some type of, you know, in vitro. And then she was the.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh, carrier.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she was the carrier. Oh, I, I don't know. And I tried to find the information, and you can't really find it. So if anybody knows, please DM me, because I, I really need to know.

[Podcast Co-host]

The options are it's both their children biologically.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

That's an option. An option is it's just hers. And somehow she got impregnated.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Podcast Co-host]

And carried them. The other one is that it belongs to someone else and it was implanted in her. Does.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, you and I use my sister as a gestational

[Podcast Co-host]

carrier, so what do you think it is?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, I'm just saying, based upon the way his children look, it does not look like they are genetically her or him. So I was thinking maybe they, I mean, maybe he has, he, he can do whatever he wants. He has multitudes of millions of dollars. I'm saying he could have just picked a female egg and a male donor, and then she was.

[Podcast Co-host]

Clearly, finances wouldn't stop him from being able to do that.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I'm just saying, I would just like to know for my own personal. Just my own personal. I just want to know genetically, but I mean, obviously familial wise, he's the dad, they love him, that's his children. But I just want to know. I just want to know the details. I just want to know genetically.

[Podcast Co-host]

They weren't married. They didn't seem to have a relationship, did they?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't think so. I think maybe. I think maybe he was so, I don't know, sad or to all of a sudden. I just think maybe he couldn't trust anyone. And I.

[Boost Mobile Announcer]

And I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

I find him asexual. I don't find him to be a child molester or sexual in any sense of the word. I think he's asexual. I think he just wanted to have kids. I don't find him to be a sexual being. And I think maybe that's why he picked Debbie Rowe, because maybe he distrusted her. Maybe she. I think she worked for him for a long time.

[Podcast Co-host]

So maybe it was just, you're not going anywhere.

[Emily Simpson]

Maybe that was it. The prosecution interviews Debbie Rowe, who is Michael Jackson's ex wife. Debbie was supposed to speak on the fact that Michael.

[Podcast Co-host]

They were married.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh.

[Emily Simpson]

Debbie was supposed to testify to the fact that Michael allegedly kept her from seeing her children. Instead, she got up on the stand and praised Michael. I remember, remember this in the documentary, the prosecution, they used her as a witness. I guess they met with her previously right before she testifies.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And she has all these things to say about Michael and they're like, oh, this is great. This is great. Right? We're going to use you. You're going to testify. Then she gets on the stand, does a complete 180. She doesn't say any of the things that allegedly she had said before. She just praises him, says he's a great guy, great dad, all the things.

[Podcast Co-host]

You think she was messing with people People, or you think she got cold feet?

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. It said. Prosecutors theorize that Jackson promised her more access to the children if she testified positively. I don't know. I don't know how he. If he got to her, if the defense got to her, if she just had a change of heart and decided she didn't want to smear his name. I don't know. Trial day 44. The defense calls witnesses Macaulay Culin, who testifies that Jackson never abused him. Brett Barnes and wife Wade Robson, who are other alleged victims, also testify in Jackson's defense. Wade Robson has since come out and claimed that Michael Jackson did sexually abuse him. He alleges that the sexual abuse began when he was seven years old in 1990, and it continued for seven, seven years. He filed a lawsuit in 2013 and his civil trial is set for 2028. You know, there's a lot of these people that defend him and say he never did it, he never touched me, he never had anything sexual. There was no nothing. And then now later they end up saying, oh, never mind. I, you know, something triggered me and now I. Now he did. And so they sued the estate. You know, also I read that when Michael Jackson died, his state was worth around 450 million. Do you know what his estate is supposedly worth currently?

[Podcast Co-host]

More or less. More billion.

[Emily Simpson]

Two to three billion.

[Podcast Co-host]

Yeah. So because you can commercialize all this stuff, whereas maybe before he wasn't interested, interested in selling it and, and stuff like that. And he bought a lot of catalogs and then. So they probably sold them or licensed them out. You know, it's like Kurt Cobain, you know, when they die, then all of a sudden, you know, they're, they have a catalog of music. And then Courtney Love sold it, sold half of it and made a fortune.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know, I just.

[Podcast Co-host]

Einstein is worth fortune posthumously. Is that what it's called? I think, I think every year he. Elvis is number one and Einstein's number two.

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[Emily Simpson]

Hey, stay in your lane.

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[Malcolm Glebel]

Hello, hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart talks with IBM. Today. We're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans in the digital age.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So so they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari which has a long history, design history and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Nissan Rogue Host]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are enabled to create a deeper connection connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari

[Ashley Nyx]

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[Emily Simpson]

June of 2005. The verdict comes out. Fans and protesters crowd outside the courthouse during jury delay deliberations. Michael Jackson is found not guilty on all counts. Even after the acquittal, public opinion remains deeply divided. The documentary concludes that regardless of the verdict, the allegations permanently damaged Jackson's reputation and legacy. You know, I did not really understand the timeline of the verdict and then his death, but they, they do an interview.

[Podcast Co-host]

I mean, how close in time it was.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, because they interviewed someone that was close to him. In the end. I don't remember it said, maybe it's like his personal biology biographer or something. I don't remember the man's name, but he said something to the effect of. I was so happy for Michael that he was acquitted. I was saying, now you can get, you know, he was talking, you can go back to your life and you can, you know, change the keys, the

[Podcast Co-host]

code on your keypad in your room and you'll be good.

[Emily Simpson]

But I, I don't remember who he was saying that to, but the person said, oh no, this, this will, he'll never, he'll never recover. Like, he'll never be the same after this.

[Podcast Co-host]

Like publicly viewed, just I think the same. Or emotionally, all of the above.

[Emily Simpson]

I think it was just deeply affected him and his psyche so badly that he could just never recover. And then that's when they said that he died in 2009, which was only four years later, which is a very short amount of time.

[Podcast Co-host]

Very, very like, like, yeah, it is surprisingly how close in time it was. And then he was preparing for his tour. I remember watching footage of him preparing for his tour and there was like leaked footage or some behind the scene footage of him rehearsing with dancers and then that was it.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you know, there was a, a video. You're going to make fun of me, but I'm going to say it anyway. There was a video that surfaced recently, I believe it was in Brazil and it was someone who.

[Podcast Co-host]

Was he working at some market in Brazil now?

[Emily Simpson]

No, he was on a bus. He was on a bus in Brazil and it was a video where someone Recognized him and was saying, you're Michael Jackson. And the video was like, of his face. And I tell you, it looked just like Michael Jackson would look, look if he aged from 2009 to 2026. It was very interesting because, you know, there are a lot of theories out there that he is alive, that he fakes his death.

[Podcast Co-host]

According to you, no one dies. That's famous.

[Emily Simpson]

No.

[Podcast Co-host]

Anyone that's a platinum star.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Doesn't die.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, you know what? Maybe the whole trial and everything he went through was some pajamas and all was, you know, a way to take him down and get a hold of his catalog. And they did everything possible to take him down, and he knew that they were going to continue to come after him, and so he faked his death, and that was his only way out. Maybe. I don't know. It's just a possibility. What do you guys think?

[Podcast Co-host]

Maybe not.

[Emily Simpson]

Is he still alive or no?

[Podcast Co-host]

No.

[Emily Simpson]

All right, let's just do. Let me do a little ending to this. So Michael Jackson has more accusers, including the Casio family. Now, this family, when I talked about earlier in the podcast, Frank Cassio knew Michael Jackson from the time he was very young. Young and worked his way up into being the personal assistant to him. He is the one who handed the duffel bag to the other guy and said, hide this evidence. He also spent years and years and years defending Michael, saying he never did anything wrong. He was a huge supporter of him. Then the Casio family, he has, I think, two other brothers and a sister or three other brothers and sister. There's like four or five of them all together. So the Casio family and Michael Jackson go back to the mid-1980s, when their father, Dominic Cassio, was a manager at the Helmsley Palace Hotel in New York, a property Michael frequently visited. I guess Michael got to know this Dominic that worked there, and they became really good friends. And then Dominic would invite Michael to his home. I believe they lived in New Jersey. The friendship deepened over decades, with the Casio children visiting Neverland and Jackson treating the family as his own. They were so close, he often called them his second family. Family. For over 25 years, the Casios were among Michael's most vocal defenders. They even appeared on Oprah in 2010 after his death to defend his character.

[Podcast Co-host]

Now, I'm guessing that's leading into some 180.

[Emily Simpson]

Frank Cassio, the one sibling who is not joining this lawsuit, apparently he is already being sued in arbitration for civil extortion. He even wrote a 2011 book called My Friend Michael Jackson, insisting nothing inappropriate had ever happened, happened. So what changed? Well, In February of 2026, the four siblings, Edward Dominic, Marie Nicole and Aldo Casio, all filed a federal lawsuit in Los Angeles against the Michael Jackson estate, alleging that Michael drugged, raped, and sexually abused each of them, beginning when they were as young as seven or eight years old. They claim that they did not come forward sooner and that they always defended him in the past because they were systematically groomed and brainwashed using Michael's, well, celebrity and network of employees, and that the 2019 HBO documentary Leaving Neverland was a catalyst for their deprogramming. The estate's response has been blunt. Attorney Marty Singer called it a desperate money grab and a shakedown, pointing to the family's 25 year public defense of Jackson as evidence that their stories have now shaken, shifted for financial reasons. Now, they did settle, they did settle with the estate a few years back and they got like $16 million. And then the $16 million ran out in 2025. So they sued again.

[Podcast Co-host]

And so you replenish the funds.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. So that's where they're at now. And I believe that the estate fired back and said that they, they weren't, they have to go through arbitration. That was part of the settlement, is that it had to, it had to be arbitration and all these things. I don't know. I'm just telling you again, you have these. He befriends people and they get all these benefits from him. And they spent 25 years talking about what a great guy he is and defending him to the bitter end. And then, I don't know, maybe they read an article that his estate is worth two to three billion dollars, but all of a sudden they're triggered. Yeah, 25 years later they're triggered by something. And now they realize that they were groomed and they were sexually abused. They, they just didn't realize it before. So now they want millions of dollars.

[Podcast Co-host]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

And then they get a settlement of 16 million.

[Podcast Co-host]

Every time I'm triggered, I want more millions.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And then the settlement runs out. I believe they each received 690, 000amonth for five years. And then that was a month, huh? Something like that. That's 16 million. I don't know. I can't do the math. And then it, that ended in 2025. But now all of a sudden they're claiming that they were, you know, coerced into settling. And so it's, it's on, it's ongoing anyway. All right, so that is Michael Jackson, the verdict. I Would love to hear your thoughts on it, please. No, I know your thoughts are.

[Podcast Co-host]

You're, you're crazy.

[Emily Simpson]

I'm not crazy.

[Podcast Co-host]

No, I know. Plus it makes for good discussion. You're trying to take the position that, you know, considering that he's a pop star, he has uber wealthy, he had a rough childhood. Right. You know, the facts are questionable, but they're all on in both ways, right?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host]

Like he had a porno magazine, but it's in a briefcase. Like it was like weird.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, again, let's just, we, we have to identify that it was pornography, but it was adult pornography. It wasn't child pornography.

[Podcast Co-host]

Absolutely.

[Emily Simpson]

So you have to make that distinction.

[Podcast Co-host]

The wrong magazine, right in court. And hint, his pajama stunt was clearly a stunt.

[Emily Simpson]

You thought it was a stunt?

[Podcast Co-host]

Oh yeah. Tell me, tell me that. You kidding me? That guy goes to the er. No. All right, sorry. You mean you're gonna go to the ER and to see like a list celebrities there?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Well, if it was a stunt, it was a brilliant stunts. Let me just read you. So the two books they talk about that they found at the Neverland estate that had, you know, the, the pictures of, you know, young boys in them, which they said also these books were considered art and also were found in libraries and things like that, so. But they were young boys and they were naked. Anyway, one of the books is called the Boy A Photographic Essay. And there's actually an inscription inside the book that Michael Jackson had written. It said, look at the true spirit of happiness and joy in the boy's faces. This is the spirit of boyhood. A life I've never had and will always dream of. This is the life I want for my children. Again, to me that just means that he's not. I, I don't feel like he did anything, a little boy because of a sexual desire or need. It is because I don't think he had a childhood. And I think that's the thing that's missing from his life. And I think he keeps trying to recreate that. And by recreating that, he has young boys around him and he does things that boys that age would do because he never got to. That's my takeaway.

[Podcast Co-host]

I don't think it's a far fetched idea.

[Emily Simpson]

Anyway, thank you guys so much for listening to Michael Jackson. The verdict. If you have comments or you have anything to add, I love to hear it. So please find me on Instagram and DM me. Also, if you have other cases you'd like us to talk about. I love to hear the recommendations. As always, please follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts. And please tell your friends and family, thank you so much for listening.

[Podcast Co-host]

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[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

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[Emily Simpson]

Pedigree good then. Better now, bro.

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[Emily Simpson]

You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too.

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving places you like without thinking you'll get them.

[Emily Simpson]

Because that's what house hunting has become.

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home.

[Emily Simpson]

Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. Which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it.

[Knix Underwear Announcer]

Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream

[Podcast Co-host]

big Transfer news today. Who's moving me to the couch with Domino's. Best deal ever since they just added stuff. Crust Any pizza is toppings now with

[Nissan Rogue Host]

stuffed crust for 9.99.

[Emily Simpson]

It's a long term contract with no

[Podcast Co-host]

Release clause only 9.99? Yeah, that sounds like the move. I'm heading straight to DOM.

[Emily Simpson]

Price is higher for some locations, excludes excellent specialty pizzas.

[Podcast Co-host]

Select this offer from 6:15 through 726 online only.

[Emily Simpson]

Size availability varies by crust height. Max 7 topping 6 for pan and New York style crust.

[Podcast Co-host]

Minimum purchase required for delivery.

[Emily Simpson]

Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.