Capricorn Clark...It's Complicated

Summary

Episode Summary: "Capricorn Clark...It's Complicated"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Capricorn Clark...It's Complicated
• Release Date: May 29, 2025

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Introduction to the Trial Coverage

The episode opens with hosts Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes introducing their insightful guest, Aubrey O’Day, a former protege of Diddy, television personality, and music artist. They set the stage for an in-depth analysis of the high-profile Diddy trial, highlighting the significance of witness Capricorn Clark's testimony.

Notable Quote:

Amy Robach [00:08]: "Covering the Diddy trial. Welcome everybody to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey o' Day covering the Diddy trial."

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Capricorn Clark’s Testimony and Its Impact

A significant portion of the episode delves into Capricorn Clark’s intense testimony. Aubrey O’Day provides a comprehensive breakdown of Capricorn's experiences, emphasizing the severe abuse and coercion she endured while working for Diddy. Aubrey highlights the traumatic conditions Capricorn faced, including nonstop work without regard for basic needs and mental health.

Notable Quotes:

Aubrey O’Day [01:20]: "Her story and what she went through is horrific. Her desire to please Diddy and to be great at her job is exactly as she stated it."

Aubrey O’Day [03:15]: "From morning until the next morning at 4am she would work nonstop. Food, water, and your overall mental health was not really ever considered over in that area."

Aubrey discusses Capricorn's role as a gatekeeper and the fear that existed among the employees, illustrating the severity of Diddy's alleged behavior and its alignment with the charges of racketeering and coercion.

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Aubrey O’Day’s Insights on Systemic Abuse

Aubrey offers a critical perspective on the broader issues within the music industry, drawing parallels between her experiences and Capricorn’s testimony. She addresses the lack of oversight and the rampant abuse that artists and employees face, emphasizing the need for systemic change.

Notable Quotes:

Aubrey O’Day [05:03]: "I think she did state in her testimony she would know best. Right. She stated in her testimony that she felt protective over him..."

Aubrey O’Day [14:44]: "When you have people that have dreams and music is different than other professions in the sense that when you guys went to show up for your job every day, you were in very corporate settings with very professional people."

She further critiques the industry's exploitative nature, highlighting how artists are often the most replaceable and least compensated members despite their significant contributions.

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Personal Experiences and Blacklisting in the Industry

The conversation shifts to Aubrey’s personal experiences with Danity Kane and the repercussions of speaking out. She recounts being blacklisted and the humiliating encounters with record labels that dismissed her talents, underscoring the precarious position of female artists in the industry.

Notable Quotes:

Aubrey O’Day [21:37]: "A bunch of record labels saying they want me having me meet up at the Beverly Hills Hotel, asking me to dance... I was trying my damnedest to. They just... are untouchable."

Aubrey O’Day [29:09]: "I had people literally saying, oh, what is this? What was this bitch scared of? Blah, blah, blah."

These anecdotes reveal the systemic barriers that prevent victims from seeking help and the industry's tendency to silence dissent through intimidation and coercion.

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The Courage of Witnesses and Collective Bravery

Aubrey commends Capricorn Clark and other witnesses for their bravery in coming forward despite the immense personal risk. She emphasizes the psychological trauma and fear these women endured, highlighting the complex emotions tied to loyalty and survival within abusive environments.

Notable Quotes:

Aubrey O’Day [29:36]: "She is looking directly at Diddy when she, or at least he's right there in front of her when she's testifying to all of this."

Aubrey O’Day [38:34]: "We need a cultural shift. This is a sick, sick situation."

Her discussion underscores the necessity of solidarity among victims and the importance of breaking the cycle of abuse perpetuated by powerful figures like Diddy.

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Analyzing Defense Strategies and Public Perception

The hosts and Aubrey examine the defense's attempts to undermine Capricorn's credibility by portraying her as complicit. They critique the defense's strategies, such as questioning her willingness to participate and highlighting her aspirations over the abuse she suffered.

Notable Quotes:

TJ Holmes [38:15]: "If she's actually saying, hey, it's worth it because I get what I want in the end, like, I want to be with the rich and powerful guy."

Aubrey O’Day [39:23]: "There have been plenty of things that have shown she was not complicit in everything. So that's a wash right there."

This segment highlights the tactical manipulations used to shift blame onto victims and the importance of recognizing genuine coercion and abuse.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up the episode, Aubrey O’Day calls for accountability and systemic reforms within the music industry. She underscores the ongoing nature of abuse and the necessity for cultural shifts to protect and support victims. The hosts emphasize the gravity of the trial and the broader implications for the industry.

Notable Quotes:

Aubrey O’Day [46:21]: "There's no oversight. I mean, I never met anyone from HR at Bad Boy, but there's no oversight."

Amy Robach [48:22]: "So, many issues that not just affected people in the arena, in the Diddy empire, but also everyone who's faced something like that."

The episode closes with a commitment to continue providing comprehensive coverage of the trial, highlighting the importance of awareness and justice for all victims involved.

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Key Takeaways:

• Capricorn Clark’s Testimony: Presents harrowing accounts of abuse and coercion, aligning with racketeering charges.
• Systemic Issues: The music industry lacks oversight, enabling powerful figures to exploit and intimidate artists.
• Personal Experiences: Aubrey O’Day shares her own struggles with blacklisting and abuse, reinforcing the need for systemic change.
• Courage of Witnesses: Highlights the bravery of women like Capricorn Clark in testifying despite immense personal risk.
• Defense Tactics: Critiques the defense’s attempts to portray victims as complicit, emphasizing genuine coercion.
• Call for Change: Urges accountability and cultural shifts to protect victims and prevent future abuse in the industry.

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This episode provides a deep and nuanced exploration of the Diddy trial, offering valuable perspectives from Aubrey O’Day and shedding light on the broader issues of abuse and exploitation within the music industry. Through detailed discussions and poignant anecdotes, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding the trial and the urgent need for systemic reforms.

Transcript

[Aubrey O'Day]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[TJ Holmes]

Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day.

[Amy Robach]

Covering the Diddy trial. Welcome everybody to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey o' Day covering the Diddy trial. I'm TJ Holmes here alongside my partner Amy Robach. And we have been getting help along the way in covering the Diddy trial from someone who has insight that we definitely right now need knee robes after we just finished another full day of testimony in the trial. And this is certainly one we could use, Aubrey's context in understanding what happened. One witness on the stand for the full day.

[TJ Holmes]

That's right. Her name is hard to forget. Capricorn Clark. And Aubrey, you read everything that this star witness told, told jurors yesterday because she had a lot to say in some ways. In a lot of ways, she corroborated what we heard from Cassie Ventura, but she also poked some holes in what she testified to, at least left some questions for jurors. What was your overall impression? You know, Capricorn, you've met Capricorn, you've worked alongside Capricorn. What was your take on her testimony yesterday?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Her story and what she went through is horrific. Her desire to please Diddy and to be great at her job is exactly as she stated it. From morning until the next morning at 4am she would work nonstop. Food, water, and your overall mental health was not really ever considered over in that area. And so it's not like there was any professional setting or professional graces giving given to the employees. And she established many things from kidnapping that's going to be playing into the RICO charge. There's violence, weapons, breaking, kidnapping, even the rituals of her day one, coming from death row, coming from shug moving over there, Day one was like Central park and if you ever, you know, play with me, you'll end up dead. Threats of violence, threats of death. And one thing I will say, in the music industry, especially in hip hop, a lot of people will threaten death. There's death talking about, you know, talked about a lot in music. Not many people take that seriously enough to fall in line and do what's needed to be done for the person that's threatening them. A lot of people will challenge back or will, you know, either make a spectacle of it in order to sell records or, or they will, you know, whatever they choose to do. It's more of a artistic presentation than it is a fear in these situations that are being testified to. This is direct fear. This is nobody understanding. This is a knowledge from a lot of people now that truly believed that he'd do exactly as he said he would. Which tells me that even prior to me being there, that in the 90s, there has to have been a lot of information that a lot of people were aware of in regards to how dangerous this human could be, potentially, because the threats of being taken out seem to have been very serious to all of these people. They didn't bat an eye, and they didn't think it was false bravado. Capricorn was very interesting because there was always this dynamic of, you know, she. There felt like there was a competitive dynamic, like as if there were. If there were certain people that she felt were in her way or whatever. They're. They're felt, in my opinion, this like, you know, just a dislike. So I didn't. I was never on the winning side of that, unfortunately. Maybe she thought that there was something with me and Diddy or whatever, but I didn't ever get to see the winning sides. There were some times where I got to see, like, good, good aspects of her personality. But I did notice, even in the testimony, she. She was saying how there were moments where she felt, like, pushed out by Cassie and even had moments where she disliked her. Then there's moments where she brought her back in. But on an overall understanding of Capricorn, I was thinking that way more was going to be told. She definitely, in my opinion, kept some things, and possibly because they don't pertain or possibly because of other situations legally.

[Amy Robach]

Aubrey, back to something you said at the beginning, and this could help us understand Capricorn a little better. She talked about possibly wanting to be a protector for Diddy, and then you were speaking kind of how she was almost possessive and like, nobody gets more attention from him than I do. I'm the one that's the gatekeeper. Which was it? Or was it a balance of e. Just give us some more context for what she felt she represented and wanted to beat a Diddy.

[Aubrey O'Day]

I think there's that balance. I think she, you know, she did state in her testimony she would know best. Right. She stated in her testimony that she felt protective over him, that if she wasn't around that he could get himself into trouble, that she would, like, basically handle all the ins and outs of all the things that were going on. And a lot of those things apparently could lead to a lot of trouble for people or for Puff. And so she was like. She took her responsibility of protecting him very seriously. And coming from death row, which, you know, infamously in the 90s, the two west and east battles were Death row and bad boy coming from death row, moving over to bad boy and having a fierce protection and loyalty to Diddy is. There's a lot to unpack there. This is a human that knows a lot of things. And I believe that with what she established, I mean, there are a lot of parts of the story. She talked about being abused by him. That's another person. Now she's part of an enterprise of people. There was somebody with her inside of her of his home. They established. Even when Diddy and the other person went inside Cuddy's home and she was left in the car that she called Cassie from a burner phone. I don't carry around burner phones, do you? I mean, you gotta be. You gotta be into some serious stuff if you're. If you've got a pocket full of burner phones just in case. I mean, I've never even walked by a burner phone and thought of purchasing it. So, like, you know, the fact that there was just a burner phone ready and the. She had to sit on his lap with the gun pointed out at her. I don't. I don't understand the sitting on the lap part. I don't know exactly what it all says, but I know it says force, and I know it says coercion. And I know that a lot of people felt like they were very unsafe and they weren't willing to challenge that. And they definitely didn't think that he was just on one and doing the most. I think they feel like their lives genuinely would be in danger. It seems over and over again that we're establishing that now with multiple people in the enterprise. Now, if you pay attention in regards to the RICO charge, racketeering, if you pay attention to what happened to Keith in that Nexium trial, they were able to establish sex trafficking off of a smaller group of people in a smaller scope. Just a handful of people that basically worked with him in order to achieve the things that he instructed them to do that were criminal. And next, the guy from Nexium is in prison. So I think they're getting right about there with reaching the bar on sex trafficking. Definitely have the possessing people across state lines. If we're getting into racketeering, things like this, like we're talking about kidnapping, we're talking about explosives, we've now tied everything to everyone, and there are more people that are being named in every testimony. And it kind of seems like the trajectory of what the prosecution is establishing is here's a name might not mean anything to you right now, but it will when we come back next week because then we see that person taking the stand and filling in all of the holes of the picture.

[TJ Holmes]

Aubrey, I'm curious. A lot was made of Capricorn's emotions. She was, by everyone who was in the courtroom. Witnesses described her as uncontrollably sobbing when she was talking about the emails, when she was begging for forgiveness for him to let her return. I mean, this is a 20 year period where she says she experienced and witnessed all of these things and yet even as late as last spring, she was begging to come back in some role. All of that emotion, all of those tears, what did you think of that? Like, you know her, at least you've been around her. What did you think of that?

[Aubrey O'Day]

I kind of always said this in different ways. There are things about Diddy that are all encompassing and for some people, when he's proud of you, you almost feel, you know, I talked with a psychologist about that on our podcast and she said to me, in your childhood or in, in general, if you have any type of abandonment or self confidence issues, different levels growing up, that when you get in front of somebody like that, they can really grab ahold of you. And the second that you are abused, traumatized or put in a very scary, fearful situation, your body almost clings up and goes into shock. And the only way you ever get that relief is when they come back to you and they want you again. Then you feel like you've got your life back if they're doing things like holding your home, your car, your bank accounts, your, your laptops, etc. I mean, Capricorn talked about she had a life and an entire established career and then she did it. And Capricorn was known as, around the time I was there, she was a bad bitch. She was running the streets, she was respected everywhere. She could go around and do whatever she wanted to do. She knew every. I mean, I was, I was intimidated by her. Like, let me not piss her off because her attitude is real poignant when she doesn't like you. And when she does like you, it seems like she looks out for you. But she was friends with Kim Porter. She even wrote in the comment that we read in an episode prior that Kim Porter was the only one that stayed a real one to the very end. I mean, that's an important piece of all of this. As everything starts to come full circle.

[Amy Robach]

How much did Diddy respect, appreciate, or even need Capricorn? Clark it sounded like she was really a gatekeeper for a lot of Things.

[Aubrey O'Day]

There were at that point, the gatekeepers that I saw, besides his big old. Besides all of the men that were part of the establishment, some who. I can personally say one sexually assaulted me. One sexually assaulted, potentially allegedly, one of my band members. There was a lot of things going on with the men over there. As far as the women go, I was always. We were always around Capricorn and a woman named Francesca Sparrow, who was found, I believe, dead. And that was, I don't know how long of a period after, of suing Diddy and Bad Boy for a significant amount of money. And then, you know, when Capricorn got out and Fran was out, seems like KK came in. And if you do a little research on some of the civil suits and some of the claims being made on the type of things that KK allegedly could have been involved in, it sounds like he kind of always had somebody in that role that maybe understood on a deeper level how. And here's the thing. Hurt people. Hurt people, right? I had moments where I saw things. I can't speak about them because Netflix has the exclusivity on them, but there were times where I witnessed things that showed a human in pain, suffering a little bit, in my opinion. So if she saw things like that often, then she might have felt a fierce loyalty to him. And also, it's a commonly known thing that black women just naturally protect black men. They are just so historically have been so disenfranchised by the system, so attacked and brutalized by the system, that there's just a different type of loyalty that exists in the community than I would necessarily even understand. And so I think that there probably is many things at play when it comes to loving somebody and wanting to protect them from ever from themselves and then also hating them so much.

[TJ Holmes]

For.

[Aubrey O'Day]

How much they never really gave a fuck about you and how much you sacrificed for them. I think maybe those. Where those tears come from also, I don't know that. Also, I don't know how much of her story, you know, was able to be told on the stand. But when you get to all of the parts of the story, there were some personal things that were probably very devastating and horrific for her to have experienced, and that could potentially also be where the tears are coming from.

[Amy Robach]

Can I stop you there? Because you mentioned it earlier, we're listening to it from the outside. We just met Capricorn Clark, if you will, just through her testimony. We don't know much about this lady, but our jars were dropped. And reading all the testimony, your first Reaction was wow, I I'm surprised she didn't go further than she did. Why is that? And you kind of alluded to it there. Can you expound as much as you can on what you mean by there's more for her to say that she didn't say and why she didn't say.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Somebody else made this statement. It wouldn't have been coming from any of us on in in the room. I can just Google quickly an article online and we all know we have our our battles with these articles online. But Suge Knight, who is has also been around all of these people for a very long time, also is familiar with Capricorn as she worked at Death row prior to going to Bad Boy. He stated that Diddy beat the out of that is what the title of the article is. Sh on his podcast Collect call with Suge Knight from that he does from prison talks about why Puffy done what Puffy did or what Puffy do is not a surprise. Everyone knows what it is. I mean you got to be able to that type of to a woman and to other women, but it's not like it's news. So basically kind of establishing that everyone knows he was doing this to people all all the way back then. Same time he beat the out of Cassie. This is a quote, not my language. He had an assistant by the name of Capricorn. He continued he felt Cap was keeping this on the low about if she was messing with Cudi or not. Puff beat the out of that. Not only did he beat the out of her, it was an Interscope person. An Interscope check that paid her to settle so he wouldn't go to jail.

[TJ Holmes]

Does it seem like he's referring to the Central park incident she discussed? Maybe she just didn't go into as much detail about what at least Suge Knight says happened.

[Aubrey O'Day]

It seems like there came a point where she couldn't take it anymore. I'm not exactly sure what incident that was, but it sounds like it was so bad that not even Bad Boy or Diddy could put their name anywhere near the check that paid her off. Allegedly. And when I say to you guys that we need a systematic change in the music industry and one man's trial and potential convictions or not is not going to change anything is because I don't know what you guys feel about if what Suge Knight said is true and there is a money trail or other people that are aware of this and confirm it, can confirm it. What do you guys feel about a music label allegedly picking up the responsibility of someone being so beaten that it got to a point where jail time was potentially being considered and the person allegedly involved could not even pay the person off. And we know that there's been a whole lot of payments to a whole lot of people according to a whole lot of civil lawsuits. 80 over 80 or around 80, to be exact, so far. Allegedly. For me, what it feels like is. Is like, I don't know, you could potentially. I'm not saying that this was what was done, but I know when we had platinum albums and we're making people millions of dollars that we were always told we weren't seeing any money because it was being recouped. That's a word that they love to use. Recoup. Recoup. Recoup. I'll never forget the word. It haunts me in my mother fucking sleep. But if you think about it, if you had to pay off a big chunk of money to somebody, you could just recoup it. Because at the time, if what Shug says is true and Interscope did make the payment, Interscope was also who was in charge of dirty money. They were the ones backing the project, to my knowledge. So if a check was made, I'm not saying that this is what occurred, but I'm sure in the industry in general, they throw a lot of different things under that recoup name. You just keep hearing about the recoup. You never actually really see the check. Well, so, you know, could somebody's beating have just been a recoup owed back by them from the artists that they, you know, represented? I don't know. This is all alleged. This is all just me, you know, opinions and us bantering back and forth about what these things could possibly mean that people have stated publicly that are in the industry. But I do remember our manager at one point, a man that I have a large amount of respect for, Johnny Wright, had a sit down with me at one point, and he did say to me, you got to get this group together. And like, you know, the pressure's on you. And I was like, why? We're all equal. We're all stars. We're all five. Choosing to not make anyone elite. We had to go in and fight for that continuously, vocally on the tracks. And he was like, well, the audience and the fans have decided it's you. So. So whether you like that or not, it is what it is. And he said to me, the. The most replaceable person in this situation is the artists, the managers, the CPAs, the agents, the publicists. The ANRs, the record labels, they're all going to be there for the next 25 girl groups after you. And they were there for the 25 girl groups before you. The artist is the most replaceable part. And the sad thing that the fans don't understand is they loved us. They came and paid for the artists for us, and we are the last to be paid. Never were paid in most regards. And. And the bigger problem in all of that is we're the most replaceable. And even if you don't mess it all up like they really tried hard to make it a Danity can inner turmoil that couldn't be controlled and it was us that were to blame. You know, Diddy pointed me out specifically because in my opinion, now that I've seen more and understand more of what was going on during that time, it's likely that they needed my fan base to turn against me and to move on to a new project that he was moving one of my bandmates onto. Potentially, in my opinion, that could be something that was going on. But I know that in, in all of these situations that when an artist is the. The most replaceable part, that there's something wrong with the music industry, the business, there's something wrong with that.

[TJ Holmes]

I know something you talked about. Aubrey was being blacklisted once you were fired from Danity Kane by Diddy and.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Capricorn said that too.

[TJ Holmes]

Absolutely what we heard from Capricorn on the stand. So that was an interesting conversation she had, or at least the testimony she was giving talking about being blacklisted. And perhaps one of the reasons why she kept coming back because she said she could not find work. She describes being followed while she was at the creative artist Agency, literally being tailed and trailed and incapable of finding work. That. That reads true for you because your experience was similar? Yes.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Yeah, my experience was more humiliating. But yeah, a bunch of record labels saying they want me having me meet up at the Beverly Hills Hotel, asking me to dance. Putting on track after track into a room full of like 40 people passing a blunt around. I remember dancing so hard. At one point I knocked. Knocked a lamp off a table. I was trying my damnedest to. They just. I just remember I have nightmares in my head from the JLO song that they kept on repeat. If I. When I hear it, I want to. Like I get. I could be dead danger to myself when that song comes on.

[Amy Robach]

You got to tell us what song?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Oh God, I can't even. I don't even want to think about it. But the song that Was put on one of them in repeat, was a JLO song. And I just, like, after a few eight counts, it usually stops, but it just wasn't stopping. And then, you know, the person leaves the room, comes back in and is like, oh, we just got the call. Like, you're. You're untouchable. But, hey, thanks for coming in. And me just being, like, mortified and humiliated and I didn't understand even at the time. It was a really big. It was a comedy bit for them. For me, I thought that I failed and I was whipping my head around and doing spins so hard that I was knocking off of tables.

[Amy Robach]

Okay, let's. Well fix it.

[TJ Holmes]

Speaks to Diddy's reach of the power he had.

[Amy Robach]

Still wondering about which JLO song, but we will ask you about that later. Get back to Capricorn for a second. Such a central part of her testimony had to do with her being the one that was there. She was a witness to the night that Diddy allegedly went to Cudi's house, broke in, was upset about finding out that Cudi was dating Cassie. Now, the big part of this is that she says she was not a willing passenger along for that ride.

[Aubrey O'Day]

No, he showed up at her apartment for the very first time. He had never gone there with a gun. Pulled her in the car, made her sit on his lap with the gun. I don't know how she snuck a burner phone, but somehow she had a burner phone, was able to warn Cassie and Cuddy that they were in his house.

[Amy Robach]

But before they left, let's. Let's do that chronologically. Yes, we're going to get to the point. But even before they left the house, this is very key, because they're arguing, the defense is that she went willingly because she considered herself his protector and didn't want him to do something stupid. She says she was absolutely not a willing participant and was forced to go. That's key. Because was she kidnapped or not? What did you make of how she handled testifying? Were you there to protect him or were you there against your will?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Yeah, that's complicated to me. What you just said made my head recognize inconsistency. I didn't realize it was one or the other. I thought that she had testified to being forced into the car by at gunpoint.

[Amy Robach]

And the defense called her on. They said, well, previously you stated that you were his protector and that you wanted to go with him that night because you, quote, didn't want him to do something stupid. They recalled that from a previous statement.

[Aubrey O'Day]

She made in that previous interview, was that. Was she talking specifically in regards to this night and this event, or was it just an overall. That night? That event.

[Amy Robach]

That event? Yeah.

[TJ Holmes]

She. She doesn't remember making that statement, but the defense said you did.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Well, let me. Let me tell you one bit of grace that I give a lot of people. When this first happened, not one person thought that anything would change. Once the settlement went down within, like, 24 hours and it was gone. Everyone, like, had 24 hours where they were like, oh, my God, justice could be real. And then when it stopped, everyone sunk back and was like, I guess we all are just gonna still be living in the lie. And then when the investigators came, there was hope. Then people thought that, you know, everybody on this, Everybody in the streets had word and talks to whoever they talked to. And it was rumored that the indictment would happen at a certain time, and it wasn't happening. And then all of a sudden, it happens. And then, you know, the raid happens. The indictment. The indictment happens during that. And then the Cassie video drops. The Cassie video drop allowed a lot of people to feel safer to come forward. But when I tell you that people were very scared, it was a real thing. If you knew anything about his behavior, if you had any proof of his behavior, if. If you were there or witnessed or was on the other end of any of his behavior, from smaller to very, very large, we're learning you were scared. I had people literally saying, oh, what is this? What was this bitch scared of? Blah, blah, blah. Well, watch the Netflix documentary and you'll be able to hear what I was scared of. But the periods of scared, tj. I mean, I don't know how many pictures of license plates I have on my phone of cars outside my home that I had never seen for months. At one point, I literally got a knife out of my kitchen and walked outside my gate and just waved it in the air and went to every single car, like, listen, you do not live on the street. You have been parked here with your phone up for the past two hours. Who the fuck are you, and what is it that you want? Like, the paranoia was seeping in. I would ask my boyfriend at the time, am I being a Karen, or is this real? And then there was something that occurred that he called me about. Pras from the Fugees pros called me at one point, and he was like, you might be right to feel like you're in danger. I'd go to a hotel for a second. He had inside, he had some type of information that I didn't know about. And that was the first time that I realized like, oh, okay, so you know, maybe I'm not doing the most. It was hard to tell. It was very scary. So when you asked me that if I see a small thing like I was trying to protect him, that could be at a state where you don't know what's really going to happen with this man. And then when he gets fully taken out, you now know, okay. I'm saying even when I spoke with Homeland Security, they told me anything that you say in this interview you'd have to say on the tr. On the standard. And there's no we, we don't get a, like edit what you say is what it is. So if there's something you don't want to say, don't say it because there's no editing and there's no go backs. This is a one time thing. They don't give you any information. They give nobody. I mean I asked them was the story that happened with me true? They could not tell me anything. They, they made it clear they would never be able to tell me any of that. So, so when you're talking to them, there's still, even I still had a fear of naming certain people that were around during certain things because I thought if he doesn't get taken under and these people do get together, I could be in a lot of trouble. But for sure I'd never work again.

[TJ Holmes]

When you see with all of that, your personal experience, knowing all of that and fearing a lot of that, when you see Capricorn get up and testify, how much courage does that take? I mean she is looking directly at Diddy when she, or at least he's right there in front of her when she's testifying to all of this. Can you imagine knowing her, knowing Diddy, being around them both, what that must have been like?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Worse than anyone can ever imagine. Because I think she knows so much more. And the scope of this is just where the scope of this is. But I also think there's some part of her that, that feels the way I do in the sense that, you know, you asked me the first day, tj, where does the sympathy lay with this person? Not every day was bad, so. And also a good day with him is a better day than you could have with anybody else in life. So it's hard to, to match the extremes of that man. And there's there, she's been tortured. Imagine if it's true what sh has suggested happened and she was given enough comp potentially compensation to take care of herself and whatever occurred. You're still living in a world that idolizes a man. You still see his billboards every time you get to hear him, that he's now changed his name to love. Do you know how disgusting that could be for so many of us? That's why I went on Mass Singer and said, this belongs to us now. For. For a man that, you know is all the love hearts went on to know that, to know the evil ways of somebody, to see that and hear if you know him and you still talk to people, to hear and know in the streets. That behavior is still allegedly still rolling on like usual. At least according to a lot of the civil suits, it appears that way. If you know allegedly, it would probably be a very hard thing to know that he just took over the one name. That is a universal feeling of goodness and warmth and joy and love. It's the best thing that you can have on this earth. And. And that motherfucking man named himself that legally and took the signage and made it his. He is still. I was watching one of the court. The people that draw those awful pictures of all of them looking hectic.

[Amy Robach]

Yes.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Yeah. I was watching her on an interview and she was saying that how much Diddy is really, like, playing it up in court. He's like blowing love hearts to the kids. He's chatting it up with his team. He's talking to interviewers as he's walking out to news sites as he's walking out. Like, he's really starting to get. He. There are a lot of reports suggesting that he's giving more of a showmanship in the room lately. And like, I. I don't know if I had mentioned this to you guys, but, you know, coming forward and saying we're respectfully not going to cross Cassie's mom. That's not. Because they couldn't come up with something that's different. Definitely a move because they feel like maybe they got somebody, at least one in that jury that is potentially in their favor and all they need is one. And a move like that could really make the man be seen as. Wow, he wouldn't even go after someone's mom. That's a really nice thing to do. And wow, look at his mom sitting behind him and all his kids are there. This. A lot of people sure do love this man. And these are a lot of horrific things we're hearing. And it could confuse somebody. And these. These details are horrific. These details are very much aligning with the charges that he has been charged with, frankly. Yet this understanding of whether he really is good or really is bad is what I think the, the both prosecution, that needs to probably do a little bit less of and more of the proof of the coercion in the force and the, the racketeering stuff which they're doing. And then I think the defense is really going to probably rest on more of the poking holes. And you really like this guy. There's. He was a drug addict and he had bad phases. But really that lovable side which I told you there is that check in with that man. He is a human. That check in could confuse one person. And it's eight men and four women. And no disrespect to you, tj, but men get it wrong a lot. A lot.

[Amy Robach]

We hear that a lot. We, we disagree with that, though, but we do hear that a lot. To back to the incident that night, she gets taken from the home she says she's heading. They're going to cut his house. He goes in with a security guard to cut his house. But we, we mentioned off the top here. She talked about the first day on the job. She was. He threatened to kill her. Threatened to kill her. Later, Keller threatened to kill her. And Cuddy and Cassie, you talked earlier about sometimes in the industry, you know, we're familiar with rap beefs, and sometimes people rap about killing this person. That's one thing. But did you, in your opinion, when he's threatening to kill somebody in these situations, this is not rap bravado. This is not rap beef. You think people had. He was for real?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Yeah. If he wasn't for real, people would have just laughed it off. Nobody would have been buying burner phones. Nobody would have been hiding out, not saying certain things around him, not upsetting him. I mean, one thing that stood out to me, and it won't make sense until the Netflix documentary comes out, but there was something they said in her exchange about how her Capricorn and Lauren London were in the kitchen talking about why they don't have a man. And Diddy tells Cassie to go into wherever he was. And he, he displays in front of these women to, to Cassie, he says, stand up, sit down, turn to the left, turn to the right, go look this way, look that way, whatever the commands were. And then he looked over at them and said, that's why you don't have a man. And, and I. There are things that. There are actual pieces of proof that suggest that that is very much the way in which the expectations for females to behave Was. And I don't think you were kept around for long if you wanted to act differently.

[TJ Holmes]

Something that Capricorn testified to in cross examination was jarring to us and certainly jaw dropping. But when the. When the defense attorneys asked her to recount, or to paraphrase at least, they asked her if this were in fact true, that she was recounting a conversation that she had with Cassie and she was telling in the statement that she was begging Cassie to leave. Diddy, you gotta leave him. You gotta leave. You can't stay with him anymore. After everything she had seen and what her remark was or what her testimony was, that Cassie said, this Jay Z is taken. Who would I date? And the lawyer said, is that what Cassie Ventura said? Did Cassie Ventura say to you, Jay Z is taken? Who else would I date? And she said, yes.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Well, here's a bigger picture thought because that is a hard one to lay into. Does it matter if somebody wanted to be with someone rich and powerful and wanted to be with somebody at the top in regards to any of these charges? No. What type of aspirational woman she was, what she valued or what she wanted in a boyfriend. And it could have just been a joke. But either way, if it wasn't a joke, and she did have an aspiration of being with the biggest and the best, which frankly, a lot of people do. Look at you. You got tj. Tj, you got Amy. Biggest and best. Somebody fought for it. Other people fight for it at different levels. To me, it's neither here nor there. It doesn't. It doesn't have anything to do with kidnapping, with weapons, robbery, IRA invade, home invasion and car bombing and continuous amounts of. I mean, he locked Capricorn up for. In a. Was it a construction building for like five days when Julie jewelry went missing. That's not a normal thing for a boss to do when jewelry's misplaced.

[TJ Holmes]

The lie detector test. And a man buys lie detector test.

[Aubrey O'Day]

I mean, let's be real now. Lie detector tests aren't even admissible in court. Who would even do something like that? I don't think that that had anything to do with her finally getting it right. I think it had to do with. Look at the degrees in which I will go to make sure that, you know, to never cross me. It's coercion.

[TJ Holmes]

Yeah. And I was just curious what you thought because you were just speaking to it. It only takes one juror. It only takes one juror. And if you're now throwing some sort of holes, or at least in terms of Was she complicit? Was she really doing all of this against her will? Was she actually being coerced and forced to do these freak off and forced to endure all of this abuse? If she's actually saying, hey, it's worth it because I get what I want in the end, like, I want to be with the rich and powerful guy. I love this luxurious lifestyle. Yeah, I might have to endure X, Y and Z, but I'll do it because I want this. That was the concern, or at least I'm sure that's what the defense's goal was, is to leave it out in one juror who thinks, you know what, she wanted it, she asked for it, she was complicit in it.

[Aubrey O'Day]

So let me say two things about that. My first one being there have been plenty of things that have shown she was not complicit in everything. So that's a wash right there. Second thing I would say is as you were talking, it was bringing all these thoughts up in regards to. There were a lot of things said to people that are still acting like they want to stay far away from this trial that know a good about about what was happening and you know who you are. And they were. There was very specific attempts at trying to divide us just as Danity Kane, let alone the women that were being that dated. I mean, it sounds like there was division that was being constantly woven between Kim and Cassie. I would witness during making the band, whenever Kim came to watch us, Cassie was drug out, whether she wanted to be there or not. She was taken out and put in the same stairwell or the hallway or whatever. Kim wasn't going to be in a room with her and Kim came first. So. And then when you see Cat Capricorn saying, Cassie got rid of me. Cassie got in there and she felt mad about Cassie doing that and thought Cassie would get rid of her. It seems like instead of women joining together, which is what we're seeing now, right, Potentially a lot of women, whether they liked each other or not, taking the stand and telling their story with a lot of bravery. And their stories seem pretty consistent. And they're not allowed to talk with each other to come up with anything. You're not allowed to speak to another victim when you have been approached by Homeland Security. So at that point you're, you're seeing all these women now with so much bravery coming forward and talking about all their experiences and they're all kind of the same. And they all are also are saying there was jealousy amongst them. But I don't know that it's necessarily a woman's state in a healthy environment to just dislike all the women around. Usually we learn ourselves through the mirror of the men that are looking at us. And if you're being mirrored back by the men that were around when I was there, I feel very worried about what you may think you are or what you may think you have to be in order to be appreciated. But it definitely wasn't best friends with the girl sitting across from you. Divide and conquer was a very good strategy that was used over there and in my opinion, and it obviously worked well. However, now that we're in a federal trial and there's plenty of people that established they're not friends anymore, they were jealous of each other, they didn't like each other. But the patterns of abuse, coercion, force, these extreme situations that everybody is discussing, some people even are still going up there liking him, but they still saw all the stuff happening. There's enough, there's enough employees involved. There's enough, there's enough people that were setting things up. There's enough people helping possess people across state lines. There's enough things going on where a lot of these charges are being really established right now.

[TJ Holmes]

Well, one thing's for sure is Capricorn's testimony on Tuesday was, for us at least, jaw dropping. And, and it's remarkable you think about how they've been calling all these witnesses. It was just her all day and she captivated everyone who was listening.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Then the new her is after her would have been kk. So let's see if KK takes the stand, because KK will would be probably just as shocking. Now, I don't know if she stays on Diddy's side or not, but in some of the civil suits, some things are alleged that are criminal behavior. So if she's looking for immunity, she might want to get on that stand, allegedly.

[TJ Holmes]

There is certainly a lot more to come in the D trial, but there is actually something that was going on behind the scenes from one of the women who took this stand last week, Dawn Richard. Can you fill us in what's going on or what happened between Dawn Richard and Q, who we had on the podcast earlier, who also alleges to be a victim in a lot of ways from the Diddy empire and what he believes happened to him. But what was going on between Q and dawn on social media?

[Aubrey O'Day]

So to basically summarize the online exchange between Q and Don, Q posted over the weekend, his post was meant to clarify the things he told us on the podcast last week and the things that he's been saying for a long time after that. Don posted in response to Q's post denying she had anything to do with his allegations. Then Q responded to her post claiming that there was video evidence. Once he posted the fact that he had receipts, Don then took her post down. So because of that interview, all of that occurred over the weekend, and then Don took down her post. So I don't know, guys, what do you think about that? What do you think specifically about the behavior of making a statement and then retracting it or there being video proof? So what do you guys think about that?

[Amy Robach]

You know, the back and forth. It's hard to look at a lot of anybody in this case. Once you start listening to them. Everybody seems like a victim. Everybody seems like they were in pain. Everybody seems like they were hurt in some way. And yes, including Diddy, yes, he was at the top of this chain. But some of the stuff they describe in his behavior sounds maniacal and it does sound like somebody strung out on drugs. This is not a suggestion at all that he is not guilty of something, is not responsible for what we all saw in that video. But this sounds like an ugly. It sounds like hell on earth. But from the outside, it all looked like a world that was glamorous and we wanted to be a part in. This is disgusting. I'll be honest with you. The more we learn about it, that's just an ugly, ugly world. And I hope this shit is not still going on to people that were your age. Are we going to get in it? Or even younger?

[Aubrey O'Day]

Tj, Let me just cut in right there. Allegedly, it is. We need a cultural reshift. This is a sick, sick situation. When you have people that have dreams and music is different than other professions in the sense that when you guys went to show up for your job every day, you were in very corporate settings with very professional people. In these settings, you're in the studio till 3am If a producer wants to smoke weed in the room, you got to run to the stairwell to breathe if you don't want to get high because you don't like that. Because they get to do what they want to do. They're recording the song, it's their track, it's their life. There's no. The boundaries are almost non existent.

[TJ Holmes]

No oversight.

[Aubrey O'Day]

There's no oversight. I mean, I never met anyone from HR at Bad Boy, but there's no oversight. The boundaries are just completely gone. And. And there needs to be a lot of checks and balances and accountability. There are so many people like listen, MTV and Viacom can't probably come forward and say, hey, we are so sorry. We had a show on that aired for almost a decade with three different bands and every single person. There's a person in every single band that has a horrific situation and is suing or wants an apology, whatever it is. And we're so sorry. We didn't know. Whatever it is. It would have felt good to hear they haven't even done that. They likely can't legally because it will imply them. And their names are listed in the lawsuits of the people that are suing from the band era. But accountability would go a long way when I see their back and forth. The only thing that just stood out to me is when you make a bold statement and then delete it. It's not a good look, in my opinion. Well, have you guys ever made a statement about a serious matter that you were in and then deleted it?

[Amy Robach]

Oh, it sends a message when you delete it. That means somebody gave it a second thought or they were wrong or they jumped a gun or something. That's what it usually suggests.

[TJ Holmes]

Sounds like either regret at the very least.

[Amy Robach]

And we have to get you out before we let you go here. We have to, have to. Have to ask about one moment that was another in a whole line of heartbroken, heartbreaking moments that we saw, which was when she described Diddy kicking Cassie while she was in a fetal position, crying silently after they found out about the kid Cudi dating after did he found out about it. And it was robes. What the call she made to Cassie's mom. And then Cassie's mom's response is the part that kind of stuck out.

[TJ Holmes]

Cassie's mom saying, I can't call police, but will you please help my daughter? That was so incredibly heartbreaking to see a woman witnessing, she claims, Diddy kicking a woman in fetal position crying silently, and the mom knowing this is happening and can still do nothing about it. That was. Or. Yeah, that's a very good point. Won't do anything, says, I can't. That was, yeah, heartbreaking. I can't think of another word for it.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Actually. Soon there's going to be an episode dropping where I talk to Dr. Hilary Goldsher and we had an incredible conversation about why women stay and the psychology behind these abusive settings and how victims almost become paralyzed in them.

[TJ Holmes]

So many issues that not just affected people in the arena, in the. In the Diddy empire, but also everyone who's faced something like that. So we appreciate your constant perspective, Aubrey o' Day, and we will continue to follow the Diddy trial. For all of you listeners, thank you for being with us.

[Aubrey O'Day]

This is an iHeart podcast.