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TJ Holmes (2:38)

Hey there, folks. It is Thursday, January 22nd, and we got a late night verdict in the Uvalde trial and the officer being held responsible, the one that they said should be held accountable for what happened in that mass shooting, he has now been found not guilty of child endangerment. And with that welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. We kind of stopped keeping an eye on jury deliberations because we thought they'd wrap up. But they stuck around last night and kept working and delivered a pretty significant verdict here.

Amy Robach (3:11)

Yes, this came down late last night, in fact, full admission. I was already asleep, so I woke up to this news. After deliberating for six, seven hours after a two week trial, former police officer Adrian Gonzalez, yes, was found not guilty. He was facing 29 counts of child endangerment for the 19 children who died and the 10 children who survived in those classrooms. He was accused of basically not acting, failing to take action as he was the first officer. A few more came up on the scene within minutes at the scene of the Uvaldi school shooting. And the prosecutor said he was there before the gunman entered the building. And their assertion was that he could have prevented the gunman from going into the building.

TJ Holmes (3:56)

The significance here, folks, is that these parents of all of these kids have been waiting for a long time for some kind of accountability, some kind of justice. This is what many of them felt was their first and maybe one of their only shots at it. This is the only man at this point who has been held accountable, who has been held criminally accountable for what happened that day. Well, we say held accountable, but now a lot of people are clearly viewing this as he is not being held accountable and he did not do his job. That was key here. Robes, you sign up as a police officer, it says to protect and serve. And it sounds simple on the surface. You put your, you sign up as an officer, that means you will give your life to protect innocent life. And so in the most basic of forms, a lot of people, I think a lot of Americans have a difficult time understanding the, that a police officer arriving on the scene before the gunman hears a hundred shots go off and he never goes into the building, you have a hard time understanding how he might have acted appropriately.

Amy Robach (4:54)

I completely agree. And yes, there was obvious outrage, emotional outrage among the parents of these children, the family members of teachers, teachers themselves, clearly emotionally visibly upset. Yes, they wanted this officer, Officer Gonzalez, held accountable and other officers Held accountable. There was a 77 minute lag between when those first shots were fired and when officers finally stormed that room. Border Patrol officers who shot and killed the gunman and eventually brought an end to the bloodshed and the violence. But this is disturbing. Jurors heard the courtroom, heard the public, heard shots, and we heard teachers, at least one teacher saying she told Officer Gonzalez, he's in there, he's there, he's in black. And you heard Gonzalez putting all of that information out on the radio, but not acting. They said, prosecutors, that he froze, that he, he did not do his job. He had been trained. They went over his training. They went over all of the training that police officers get. And in every instance, it is to act, to run towards gunfire, not, not to cower, not to take and seek protection, not to hide, not to radio, but to go in towards gunfire. That is what police officers are supposed to do.

TJ Holmes (6:13)

That's the prosecution argument. The defense certainly had a response to that that obviously won over this particular juror. But the key question here was, is there something criminally wrong with this man's actions? Can we hold a police officer criminally liable for his reaction in a moment of chaos, in a moment of panic? That was a key question they had to consider. And obviously they came back with a unanimous verdict that saying that Adrian Gonzalez should not be held accountable. Now, the prosecution did make the argument robes you were making, and they flat out said in the closing argument, hey, if you don't wanna do this, find another line of work, that's fine, but your life is not as valuable as innocent life. You didn't do your job. It sounds that simple. And that's the argument they drove home throughout this case. Yes, it was emotional as all get out. There were at times emotional outbursts in the courtroom where there were questions and threats about a mistrial because people couldn't keep it together. But they got past all of that to get to this moment, to get to yesterday. These parents have been waiting four years almost for what they feel should be justice. These same parents who were screaming at officers, please go in or even let me go in to save my own kid. This was the moment. And now you had reactions afterwards of parents absolutely saying this sends the message to police officers show up at a scene, you ain't got to do nothing. In fact, maybe you shouldn't because you might end up getting held criminally liable for your actions that someone then deemed aren't the right actions. So don't even go to the scene is what some are arguing now, yeah.

Amy Robach (7:38)

That'S what the defense actually used as part of their argument in defending Gonzalez, saying, if you. If you end up giving this man a guilty verdict, if he faces charges and a conviction for these crimes prosecutors are alleging, then you are now going to send a message to every officer, stay in the perimeter. Actually, don't even go to the scene, because if you don't act perfect perfectly, if you don't react perfectly, you will be held criminally responsible. And so he was saying it would send a message of deterrence for police officers. Actually, it would do the opposite. Instead of encouraging officers to run towards the scene, they would just stay away because their point was there were other officers there and they were not charged because they were deemed following orders. They were setting up a perimeter or doing other things that they were told to do, so they were not held responsible. So the defense said then that would be the directive to officers to avoid any sort of potential questioning down the line about their actions. Just go do something else.

TJ Holmes (8:34)

And we are. And most people listening saw headlines about this case and didn't deep do do as deep of a dive as maybe even we did because we watched it so often. But also a lot of people not reading a lot of this testimony and getting to the nitty gritty of the eyes and the eyes dotted and T's crossed with when it comes to legalities of this. But the defense did make some arguments. He said, yes, things weren't perfect, but you can't punish an officer for not being perfect. There were failures, but what we're saying here is nobody tried to fail. I thought that was a good defense, way to put it. Yes, he failed, but he wasn't trying to. And you can't hold him responsible in this chaos of everything not being perfect. I thought that was effective.

Amy Robach (9:17)

I did, too. And they said he was being made a scapegoat. And that is a point that he. Look, the police chief is facing charges and he will have a trial at a later date. But he was the only officer on the scene who was charged, and there were several there within those first few minutes. And ultimately, I believe hundreds of officers ended up showing up. But he talked about the confusion. He talked about how Gonzalez did go into the school, into the hallway. They called it the. The hallway of death, I believe. And when they had shots fired at them, they retreated. When I heard that word retreat, though, it still sent a shiver up my spine. You don't think about police officers retreating. And that was the prosecution's argument.

TJ Holmes (9:56)

That was the middle of one of the. The outbursts. A fatal tunnel, I think, is what it's called. I wasn't that familiar with this phrase, but it makes sense. Hell, you see it in movies. You don't have officers lined up in a hallway. One person, one with a gunman can step out there, and they're in literally, a tunnel to where they could all get shot.

Amy Robach (10:12)

Like being in a barrel.

TJ Holmes (10:13)

That makes sense. The. The argument. And again, it's. It's simple for. Or it seems simple for a layperson. Folks like us who aren't in the legal field, who aren't in law enforcement, but they are the ones who were telling us. Robes, plenty of people, experts. There's gunfire. There are children inside. Go. There's nothing to talk about. You don't wait for backup. You tell me there are babies in there and I hear gunfire in there. You don't stand and wait for something to happen. That, yes, that's the case. Maybe you should be fired. Maybe you should find another line of work. But should you be held criminally liable?

Amy Robach (10:53)

That's a good point. And several people were fired, and several people did leave the police force after this tragedy. But it was interesting, I thought, in the trial when the prosecutor. And this was used, or they attempted to use this against Mr. Gonzalez, but they played a video of an interrogation of him the day after the massacre where he told investigators that he was focused on the woman who was telling him, you know, the. The gunman's in there. And he wasn't focused on the gunman's movements. He's claiming he never saw the gunman. He didn't know where the gunman was, but he said something that was held and used against him. He said, it was my mistake, but it's just the adrenaline rush going and, you know, shots fired and stuff like that. It was my mistake. They were using his own words to say, you even admitted that you screwed up.

TJ Holmes (11:46)

Yeah, but if you screw up, is that a criminal act? I actually don't know. But the jury, certainly. That was listening even more closely than we were, certainly came to the conclusion that the law does not allow this man to be charged for what he did. I. It's very difficult to understand that not a single kid had been shot by the time Adrian Gonzalez got to that school.

Amy Robach (12:07)

That's so heartbreaking to even imagine.

TJ Holmes (12:09)

So tell me, how. How did he act appropriately? If he saved one, he saved two. If he got shot himself, if he just directed the shooter's attention, that, for a layperson, sounds like, come on, dude, you obviously did Something wrong, you should be held responsible. And people are dead because of it. Folks, the gunman was not in the school when Adrian Gonzalez got there. If he'd have done anything differently, if he'd have gone towards the direction where the woman was pointing, saying he was over there, things could have gone differently. The teacher went back into the school. The prosecution made such an emotional case Robes, that everybody acted in defense of those kids except the guy with the gun, exactly whose job it was, and sworn to protect them with his own life. That's tough. That's emotional.

Amy Robach (13:02)

It is tough because. And that was one of the emotional outbursts. Those teachers didn't have guns. Those children didn't have weapons. Those, everyone inside that building who were being shot at and you could hear the shots ringing out, had zero protection. They had no weapons. And here you have an officer of the law who, who has gone through training to deal with this exact active shooter scenario, who has a weapon. And he chose to stay where he was, to radio for help, to basically narrate what was happening over the radio rather than take action.

TJ Holmes (13:40)

They said he was trying. They used the word he was trying. He was trying to do his duty. Yes, mistakes were made and it added to the pain of the day, but he. He made mistakes, but he acted. He also said he didn't just stand there, he was actively doing other things. I don't know. They said later he was helping usher kids out or something or the other.

Amy Robach (13:58)

He broke windows, I believe, to help some of them escape.

TJ Holmes (14:01)

So they said. They make it sound like he's just standing around drilling his thumbs while this was going on. And that's not the case. Look, the defense made a good. This was near the end of closing arguments by saying you don't honor the memory of these kids by doing injustice in their name. Okay, I mean, I get that, but this is so tough emotionally. And the details to a layperson don't make a whole lot of sense. But folks, stay here. This is not the first time we've seen a case like this. However, the result ends up being the same as the other case. We'll explain also tell you who else is going to be facing trial for the Uvalde shooting.

Hunter Woodhull (14:46)

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TJ Holmes (18:02)

We continue here on this Thursday morning on Amy and TJ Got a late night verdict from the jurors in the Uvalde case of Adrian Gonzalez, the only officer, the first officer to be held criminally responsible for the shooting at Robb elementary school in 2022 that left 19 kids killed. Two teachers died as well. But the jury came back and said not guilty. That Adrian Gonzalez should not be held criminally liable for 29 counts of child endangerment. Ropes the police chief we mentioned, I didn't see, sorry, I don't have it in front of me. But the police chief for the Uvalde School District is supposed to be heading to trial as well. And I mean, if you were his attorneys when you follow the same playbook.

Amy Robach (18:42)

Absolutely. This is Chief Pete Arredondo and he was the face of this in terms of just in the days that followed. And he was obviously in charge of the police response to the shooting. And I, obviously, the defense attorneys who are representing Chief Arredondo are clearly and were watching this trial and. Yeah, why wouldn't they go after the same playbook? I was wondering if prosecutors even feel confident about going forward with that case at this point. And look, being there on the scene and feeling the emotion of the parents when it happened there in Uvalde and knowing how frustrated and that's not even the right word, just to know that you weren't even allowed to go into that building to save and protect your children, that you weren't allowed to and parents were trying and that police officers, they were screaming at them, go inside. It was horrific. And to think that now the officer who was there who didn't act was found not guilty. To go after the police chief now seems surreal and maybe even a waste of taxpayer dollars.

TJ Holmes (19:49)

I mean, I assume they brought these cases because they think they have a case. There's plenty that will argue that they are trying to hold something, somebody responsible for what happened. And you want to like somebody, this is somebody's fault. Yes, there were mistakes made and this, but 19 babies are dead. You can't help. But it's not just that a mass shooting took place. It was what happened afterwards. Adrian Gonzalez heard 100 plus shots while he was standing outside after shot 10, why didn't you go in? There are kids in the school. After shot 30, after you heard shot number 60 still.

Amy Robach (20:20)

And that is what officers are trained to do. He's standing here period, point blank. And that's what other officers testified to.

TJ Holmes (20:26)

Wait for backup. He made the. He didn't testify. We should say that as well. But he did make the argument he waited for cover and didn't go in. Okay, I just. Legally, you shouldn't be held criminally responsible. But, man, that's tough. And that's gotta be tough for him the rest of his life to deal with that.

Amy Robach (20:41)

Oh, he has to be. I actually had that thought. Yes, he was found not guilty. And yes, he thanked his family and his defense attorneys. He said just a few words after the verdict was read, and he was directly asked if he had anything to say to the parents of the children who were killed. And he said, no, not at this time. But I was imagining, even though, yes, he is a free man now. Is he free? He has to live in his own prison, in his own kind of prison because of what he knows about himself, what he knows parents, most of those parents think of him. That has to be a weight that is heavier than any chain, than any. Anything I can imagine.

TJ Holmes (21:28)

Yeah. Can he. Is it possible he goes to bed at night thinking, I did the right thing that day? That's. It's tough to imagine. Look, we in our daily lives, we. Things that go wrong and simple stuff. Man, if I had only done that differently. And you beat yourself up about all kinds of things in a relationship, at a job, at a daily assignment, whatever. This is one man. If I had only done blank differently, 21 people might be alive. That's. That is heavy. That is weighty. That is. And I do not envy the position that he is in.

Hunter Woodhull (22:01)

No.

TJ Holmes (22:02)

And your heart goes out to him in some respect, just as a human being.

Amy Robach (22:06)

He panicked, you know, he panicked in the chaos. He said he had tunnel vision, did he not? I believe that was what he said. And yes, I do have compassion, tremendous compassion for what he has to live with by making a bad call, by letting fear perhaps guide him instead of. I don't even want to say bravery, because I know people have said, is it a crime to be a coward? I hate to even put that label on him. But he let fear cripple him. Fear can motivate you fear can cripple you. And he allowed it to cripple him in that moment.

TJ Holmes (22:41)

It cripples a lot of people.

Amy Robach (22:42)

Yes, it does.

TJ Holmes (22:43)

Shouldn't have a badge and a gun if it's going to cripple you when I need you. Because I call 911 because I'm in trouble and there are people who will come save my life, that I pay.

Amy Robach (22:53)

For and risk their own lives to save your life.

TJ Holmes (22:55)

Because they signed up for it and they're expecting my call, so I'm gonna call them. But then they don't show up, or they show up and don't do anything. That is not what the system is designed to do.

Amy Robach (23:08)

That's absolutely correct.

TJ Holmes (23:09)

But we will. Or we have robes. Seeing this before, and it was the same result. Marjorie Douglas High School down in Florida. Another officer down there. Yeah.

Amy Robach (23:18)

Parkland shooting. The only officer, he stayed outside. He went through a trial very much like this one, and it ended very much like this when that officer was acquitted. You know, I was curious. We haven't discussed our reaction to the verdict because we just haven't had this conversation. But I was thinking you probably are not surprised at all because you have said this. It is. It is almost impossible. If you look at all the cases where police officers have been held accountable for the death of someone while they were on the job. It. It's rare, to say the very least.

TJ Holmes (23:51)

Well, the law, and certainly jurors often defer to police officers in their actions over their reactions in split second decision making, chaos, panic, danger. They do. And there are legal protections for officers as well. I'm sure a lot of officers will tell you we can't be in a position to where we think if an officer gets to a scene, he can't be the first thing on his mind. Okay, if I do this, I might get sued. If I do this, I might get charged. You just can't.

Amy Robach (24:18)

You can't be second guessing every decision you're making.

TJ Holmes (24:21)

But so you have to give them the freedom to act. Adrian Gonzalez had the freedom to act. Like if he started just going through the windows and looking through and firing shots and figure it anything like the law would protect him if he thought he was protecting those kids. And here we are. It is. It's tough. And to go through another trial. Do the parents want that?

Amy Robach (24:47)

Now, see, that's what I was thinking. This verdict of not guilty. And you. We saw the emotion in the courtroom. And as you pointed out, you know, a teacher had to be escorted out or I believe the sister of a teacher had to be escorted out. There was a teacher on the stand who they said, you can't consider what she just testified to because there was so much emotion. And this community, I mean, there were family members, as you might imagine, who traveled hours to Corpus Christi because this trial took place outside of Uvalde, which is understandable, so that they could get a fairer, more impartial jury or an impartial jury. And so these family members were driving hours to Corpus Christi to, to see this justice. And are they really up for another trial?

TJ Holmes (25:34)

We shall see. But folks want to hop on and give you this update. A lot of you probably missed the update overnight. But yes, in the case of the Uvalde officer who was accused of failing to act and possibly resulted in death at Robb Elementary School In Uvalde in 2022, he has been acquitted, found not guilty of 29 counts of child endangerment. We always appreciate you spending some time with us. Keep an eye on our feed today. There's going to be a number of significant updates. Oh my goodness. We can tell already. News is breaking from Davos. But keep an eye on our feed. Top right corner of your Apple podcast app, the little button that says follow, click that you can get our updates coming to you. But as always, we appreciate you spending time with us. I'm TJ Holmes. On behalf of my dear Amy Robach, we'll talk to you all soon.

Amy Robach (26:31)

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