Florida Executing #15, as Tennessee “Botched” Lethal Injection  Method is Challenged

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Florida Executing #15, as Tennessee 'Botched' Lethal Injection Method is Challenged"

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Hosts: Amy Buck (Robach) & T.J. Holmes
Producer: iHeartPodcasts
Date: October 27, 2025
Episode Topic: An exploration of Florida's record-setting execution rate and new controversy over lethal injection protocols, highlighted by a recent "botched" execution in Tennessee.

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Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into the increasing pace of executions in Florida, the story of Norman Merle Grimm (scheduled to be Florida’s 15th execution this year), and the scrutiny facing lethal injection as an execution method, with special attention to the recent case of Byron Black in Tennessee. The hosts unpack the ethical, legal, and physiological controversies surrounding modern execution methods, especially concerning whether they are humane or violate constitutional bans on cruel and unusual punishment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Florida’s Execution “Modern Record”

(02:55–05:14)

• Florida is poised to conduct its 15th execution of the year, marking a modern record for the state since the 1976 reinstatement of the death penalty.
• The latest scheduled execution involves Norman Merle Grimm, 65, who is not contesting his sentence.
• “They will more than double their previous record of executions in one year.” – Amy (05:08)
• Texas, usually leading in executions, lags behind Florida this year (5 vs. 15).

2. Details of the Norman Grimm Case

(05:29–09:34)

• Grimm was convicted of the brutal rape and murder of his neighbor, an attorney, after a series of violent crimes against women.
• He opted to forgo any appeals, making his execution swift and uncontested.
• “He just said, 'Let’s do this,' basically.” – Amy (05:48)

3. Botched Tennessee Execution: Byron Black

(09:34–13:14, 20:03–21:12)

• The Tennessee case of Byron Black challenges the humanity of lethal injection.
• Black, 69, was in poor health (kidney failure, heart issues, intellectual disability, implanted defibrillator).
• Despite multiple warnings, Black’s defibrillator was not turned off prior to his execution due to hospital refusals and bureaucratic confusion.
• There was “sustained cardiac activity two minutes after he was pronounced dead," raising questions about whether he was truly deceased when declared.
• “They don’t really know what happened … but we do know now he wasn’t dead when they pronounced him dead.” – Amy (10:57)

4. Execution Protocol Failures and Alleged Cruelty

(13:14–16:20, 20:03–22:21)

• Black’s attorneys and some witnesses argued the execution amounted to torture.
• Black reportedly spoke and expressed pain five minutes into the execution:
  “He was actually able to say those words out loud so that folks who were witnessing the execution could hear him say it and document it. And then he was moaning in pain for five minutes.” – Amy (21:12)
• Standard protocol claims unconsciousness should occur within 20 seconds of injection; Black’s response indicates otherwise.

5. Broader Critiques of Lethal Injection

(22:21–23:47)

• Studies found 84% of 200 autopsied death row inmates had pulmonary edema (fluid in lungs), causing suffocation sensations akin to waterboarding.
• Some inmates are choosing “firing squad” or “nitrogen gas” over lethal injection, seeking quicker, less excruciating deaths.

6. The Ethics and Future of Execution Methods

(23:47–end)

• The rising number of executions and continued reports of suffering renew debates about what constitutes “humane” execution.
• Alternative methods such as nitrogen gas are becoming more common, especially in states like Alabama.
• The episode ends with speculation about how executions may be carried out in the future and emphasis on monitoring ongoing and upcoming cases.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Florida’s unprecedented execution rate:
  "They just scheduled them all this year once drugs became available, and they just start putting them back on the books..." – TJ (05:14)

• On the brutality of Grimm’s crime:
  “She also had wounds that were consistent with being struck repeatedly with a hammer. So this was some really, really nasty stuff.” – TJ (08:01)

• On the lack of appeal by Grimm:
  “He just saved a whole lot of time and energy and money on a lot of people’s parts by just saying, don’t even give it an attempt.” – TJ (05:51)

• On Byron Black’s execution:
  “So his electrocardiogram showed that there was sustained cardiac activity two minutes after he was pronounced dead.” – Amy (10:24)
  “His attorney flat out said he was tortured.” – TJ (09:34)

• Healthcare provider confusion over defibrillator:
  “Reports of Nashville General Hospital’s involvement are inaccurate... any assertion the hospital would participate in the procedure was premature.” – Amy (14:04, quoting hospital statement)

• On the experience of pain during lethal injection:
  “He’s moaning. He’s saying, ‘Oh, it’s hurting so bad.’ ... he was moaning in pain for five minutes.” – Amy (21:12)
  “Nobody’s going to be 100% comfortable while they’re being killed. But still, what level of pain is cruel and unusual?” – TJ (20:59)

• On autopsy findings:
  “They say that of the 200 autopsies of death row prisoners... 84% ... had pulmonary edemas ... liken it to waterboarding.” – Amy (22:21)

• On alternative execution methods:
  _"Some pretty quickly if they, they say, really, that’s why you choose it. If somebody’s aim is good, that that’s a quick stopping of the heart." _ – TJ (23:26)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Florida Execution Record: 02:55–05:14
• Norman Grimm Case Details: 05:29–09:34
• Tennessee Botched Execution – Initial Facts: 09:34–13:14
• Defibrillator Confusion & Hospital Statement: 13:14–14:04
• Byron Black’s Suffering During Execution: 20:03–21:51
• Scientific Findings on Lethal Injection Suffering: 22:21–23:26
• Inmate Choices & Growing Use of Alternatives: 23:26–23:47

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Conclusion & Tone

Amy and TJ maintain a tone balancing matter-of-fact legal narration, empathy for victims, and a clear-eyed focus on humanitarian and constitutional concerns about execution methods. They emphasize meticulous reporting and amplify the real-world impact of protocols gone wrong. The episode is both a news update and a critical examination of how the American death penalty is evolving, questioning whether current or future methods can ever be true to the idea of humane justice.

Transcript

[Amy Buck]

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[TJ Holmes]

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[TJ Holmes]

Hey there, folks. It is Monday, October 27th, and tomorrow.

Night, Florida is going to execute a man. And it will be their 15th execution of the year. But this man is the first one.

To not even fight his execution date. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and tj. And he is going to Robes die by lethal injection. And that is where we got some more disturbing news about lethal injection out of Tennessee. All this stuff ties together, but there is a case in Tennessee of an inmate who died this year in what they call a botched execution by lethal injection in robes. This idea that possibly. Just how alive could he possibly have been after he was declared dead.

[Amy Buck]

Yeah. There has been for years now so much focus and controversy surrounding lethal injection. How states do it, the chemicals or the drugs they use, the order in which they use them. And the question remains, it feels like still we're asking, is it humane? Is it cruel and unusual the way we're killing inmates on death row?

[TJ Holmes]

How can we ever know? Do we.

Right.

We go by what doctors tell us. We go by research. And a lot of people go by reactions. And that's the reaction to the person being killed, the reactions to the body. And in this case, we're going to discuss, at least in this episode, Robes, the one out of Tennessee, we actually heard from the inmate say out loud that he was in pain. So we will get into that. But in Florida, I mean, you can't make this stuff up. But the inmate there, the execution this week, his last name is Grim.

[Amy Buck]

Yeah. Norman Merle Grimm, 65 years old, again scheduled to die by lethal injection. It would be the 15th execution this year for Florida, which is a. They call it a modern record, at least since the death penalty has been.

[TJ Holmes]

Reinstated in 1976, since it came back. And then they had eight was their high before this. So they're up to 15. They will be this week and I think two more on the books for this year. So they will get up to 17 if all goes as scheduled.

[Amy Buck]

So they will more than double their previous record of executions in one year.

[TJ Holmes]

Yes. Far ahead of what we're used to seeing in Texas. Texas has five this year, I believe, executions. But Florida is that they just scheduled them all this year once drugs became available, and they just start putting them back on the books and they're seeing them through.

[Amy Buck]

And this will be the 41st execution this year in this country. Grimm will be, or would be if it does, in fact, happen tomorrow. And it looks like, by all accounts, it will, because as you pointed out, he is not Appealing this conviction. He's not proclaiming his innocence. He just said, let's do this. Basically.

[TJ Holmes]

Yeah. I mean, it's not what you're used to seeing. I mean, they're trying everything at this late hour, anything that sticks. And he just saved a whole lot of time and energy and money on a lot of people's parts by just saying, don't even give it an attempt. Now, Grimm's. And again, we mentioned robes. We've done several of these stories and. Right. Sometimes details are in question and people question some of the witnesses and some of the evidence. This is not one of these cases. And this was a really horrific crime that he was convicted of.

[Amy Buck]

Yes, it was described as brutal and merciless. I mean, most murders are, but this one is actually puzzling too. And this is a guy who had a very long, violent criminal history, but he murdered his next door neighbor who was an attorney. And it's. It's a bizarre setup. I'm sure you read all the details, babe, that she had called police, police earlier in the morning because someone had broken her window. And he was over there with her with police looking at this broken window. And the police officer who came to the scene around 5 o' clock in the morning heard him invite her over to his home for coffee afterwards. And then she goes missing.

[TJ Holmes]

I didn't see how long was she.

[Amy Buck]

Missing, not very long at all. So she basically they had. She had a. An intern at her law office drop off something and her front door was open, he noted, and the car was in there and. And he called out her name. She didn't answer. No one thought anything of it. A few hours later, when she didn't show up for work, they went by again and again. Her car was there, her keys were there and she wasn't. And so they called police and police went to question Grim immediately who said he didn't know what was going on. But then he went out and police followed him because he said he had to go pick up his dogs, but they believe now what he was doing. Her body was in his trunk at that point. And he was able to lose the police officer. Like he knew he was being followed. It's bizarre. And dumped the body over a bridge, which was then fished out of this body of water within hours by a fisherman.

[TJ Holmes]

And the condition of the body, it's pretty horrific stuff. They describe here had at least 11 stab wounds and seven of those penetrated this lady's heart. And she also had wounds that were consistent with being struck repeatedly with a hammer. So this was some really, really nasty stuff. But he was convicted of this crime and he had a chance earlier this month was asked the question, do you want to appeal? He said no, because if he had done so it immediately triggered all of this court action that sometimes can slow things down but it makes its way up. And then you have to hear from the Supreme Court or will they take that whole thing. He skipped all that stuff and just said nope.

[Amy Buck]

Well, I mean look. And he also, not only was he convicted with a first degree murder and it was a unanimous decision to send him to death row, but he also raped her. Sexual battery as well. But when you start to look at Norman Grimm's history, it's appalling that he was even out just all of these other incidents where he was accused of and convicted of accosting a 14 year old girl, dragging her to a wooded area. She was managed to get free. He also like went after a woman who was living next door. She fought him off and he was. But anyway he had repeatedly gone after women violently and they just happened to get away from him. But he was convicted of crimes and went to prison but was just released and sadly it ended up in murder.

[TJ Holmes]

And so his I guess his, his life of crime and his, I guess his story is going to end and that book is going to be closed. We'll see with lethal injection how this goes. There have been varying reports of how it goes with this, with lethal injection and how this is going to go. But lethal injection is being challenged in the state of Tennessee right now after there was what they are calling a botched, a botched execution of Byron Black. Now once you start listening to some of these details, it's pretty remarkable. But Byron Black was 69 years old, but his execution was August 5th and we call it an execution, but robes at the time, his eternity. His attorney flat out said he was tortured.

[Amy Buck]

That's right. So his electrocardiogram showed that there was sustained cardiac activity two minutes after he was pronounced dead. And the moment he was pronounced dead, according to his attorney, they, the folks working behind the scenes shut the curtain so they could no longer see if he was still in pain, if he was still suffering, if he had still any visible signs of life at that point. So they don't really know what happened or once they shut the curtains pronouncing him dead. But we do know now he wasn't dead when they pronounced him dead.

[TJ Holmes]

There was a lot. Now I tried to look this up to your point best I could, like what does the body do right. Can you be pronounced dead and have little flurries of electric activity through the body? I don't know. Is there a flutter? How sustained did they say this was? But this was entered as part of evidence as to why lethal injection should not be allowed and why it's cruel and unusual. Now his crime, at least we'll get this part out of the way, was pretty horrific. So there's no question about this man's guilt or innocence. And that is not the question. The question is, was it humane the way he was executed? But he killed his girlfriend and her two daughters were the ages of nine and six.

[Amy Buck]

That's tough.

[TJ Holmes]

So that is what he was convicted of now over the years. Now here he is, Rose, he's a 69 year old man and apparently in terrible physical condition.

[Amy Buck]

That's right. He had end stage kidney failure, he had congestive heart failure. So he actually had a defibrillator. I can never say that. Right. Defibrillator implanted in his chest. And he suffered from dementia. He was immobile and his IQ was.

[TJ Holmes]

Yes they say, extremely low, an intellectual disability. So he had all of these issues, all of these ailments. And look, he did the crime, you do the time and the time for him is punishment and it's by execution. But a lot of people are arguing this was cruel and unusual. Now you mentioned Rome's the defibrillator and that is a big part of the cruel and unusual. Now before his execution, his attorneys had.

Been warning everybody that hey, he has.

This heart implant that is supposed to monitor his heart and anytime there's a irregularity, what does it do? Gives it a little shock, shocks you.

Back, it wakes you back up and.

Keeps the heart in rhythm. Hey, you're trying to kill him. This heart implant might try to keep.

Trying to bring him back to life.

And it might try to keep shocking his heart, which could be extremely painful for him.

So they went to court and asked for it to be turned off. One judge said, yep, has to be cut off.

The state in an appeals and another.

Court said, robes, yes, turn it off.

But it's not a big deal that you do it.

Essentially saying, we're not going to require.

That you do it, but knock yourself.

Out if you can make it work.

That was the instruction was, no, we're.

Not requiring it, but if you can.

Make it work with the schedule.

So a hospital, according to the prosecutor.

Has agreed to come and turn off the defibrillator right before the execution. Within Rome's days ahead of time, that Hospital puts out that statement that you see in front of you.

[Amy Buck]

Wow.

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So here's what the hospital said earlier.

[Amy Buck]

Reports of Nashville General Hospital's involvement are inaccur. The correctional healthcare provider contracted by the Tennessee Department of Correction did not contact appropriate Nashville General Hospital leadership with its request to deactivate the implanted defibrillator. Any assertion the hospital would participate in the procedure was premature.

[TJ Holmes]

And with that, there was no one.

To turn off the defibrillator. So this man, with all those issues we talked about with the intellectual disability, with the physical ailments, with the heart condition, and yes, with this thing, it was not turned off. The suggestion being that maybe it could shock him back to life repeatedly. So the execution comes in Rome. By many accounts of witnesses, this was awful. Including the words I look, I've seen final words. And what are your last words? That's one thing. Yes, I. I can't remember. Reports of one in which during the execution, the inmate was talking or trying to communicate something while dying.

[Amy Buck]

Well, the thought would be that if the. If the drugs were put in his system in the correct order, in the correct way, in the correct amount, you would be incapacitated. You would be asleep, you wouldn't be able to speak. And that's why I would presume we don't hear people saying anything intelligible when they're in the process of dying because they've been. The first drug should have gone in and paralyzed their body or at least put them to sleep so that they don't feel pain and they can't communicate.

[TJ Holmes]

You hit it.

Exactly. And they say Mr. Black should have been unconscious in a matter of seconds, but instead he was still conscious five minutes into his execution. And to your point, Robes, you would think someone wouldn't be able to come up with something to say to be understood at that point. But stay with us, folks. We will tell you what this man's. Not just his last words were, but his final plea was as he was dying. Stay here.

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[TJ Holmes]

All right, folks, welcome back. We continue now with Byron Black, who is, who was executed earlier this year. And Norman Grimm set to be executed tomorrow by the state of Florida. Grimm going to receive the same fate death by lethal injection that Byron Black did. Byron Black's execution called botched by many. His attorney calling him tortured as he went through the process. And in Tennessee, they are challenging now some of the processes and the protocols for going through lethal injection, calling them cruel and unusual, including in Byron Black's case. Now, Robes, it was just revealed, as we said, the EKG showed that he was still. His heart showed sustained cardiac activity after two minutes. But during that execution of Byron Black, he spoke and he let people know that's part of it. Like how much pain.

And then some judges have ruled in.

The past, like you, there's going to be a level of discomfort. Nobody's going to be 100% comfortable while they're being killed. But still, what level of pain is cruel and unusual? And this was, this was. I don't know how to describe necessarily what went down here.

[Amy Buck]

Well, especially when you have experts in this area say that if the drug is used correctly and injected correctly, that you should lose consciousness within 20 seconds is what they have said. And so, yes, five minutes into it, he's moaning. He's saying, oh, it's hurting so bad. Like, he was actually able to say those words out loud so that folks who were witnessing the execution could hear him say it and document it. And then he was moaning in pain for five minutes.

[TJ Holmes]

They said that's not how it's supposed to work. I don't believe. So they are challenging this in Tennessee. But again, Robes, we are going through now another execution. Again, there, there are quite. We talk about this, we go back and forth and we always say if there's a, there's no question, if there's any question about guilt or innocence, you should, we should take a beat. There isn't a question about guilt or innocence in the Florida case. But now there's, there are big questions about the methods.

[Amy Buck]

Correct. They were using because some of the Death Penalty Information center, we've talked about how, we've used a lot of their information, but they talked about how specifically in reference to what happened to Mr. Black and his, his execution, they say that of the 200 autopsies of death row prisoners that's been done over the last several years, that study found that 84% of those death row inmates had pulmonary edemas, which is basically when your lungs fill with fluid and it creates a feeling of suffocation or drowning. And experts say that actually they liken it to waterboarding. And so they say there's extreme pain. And so this is what's been happening to a lot of these inmates with lethal injection to the point where we have seen, and obviously these studies have been out and headlines have been out there. We have seen prisoners in some states choose other methods of execution that seem horrific, like either nitrogen gas or firing squad.

[TJ Holmes]

Some pretty quickly if they, they say, really, that's why you choose it. If somebody's aim is good, that that's a quick stopping of the heart.

[Amy Buck]

Correct. So people, I mean, obviously they're looking for the quickest and least painful way to die. And most inmates, it seems, are concerned about this lethal injection. And it's been, the thing is it's been an issue for years now.

[TJ Holmes]

And so the next thing is going to be an issue is nitrogen gas, which is being used more and more. In particular, what Alabama I think is very prone to use that. But just something else we're keeping an eye on this week. I mean, after we get through this month, there are another, I think five or six on the books in November. And getting us through the end of the year just, it's fascinating to see at the pace that we're on this year, robes and where does it lead next year as well. But folks, for now just wanted to hop on, give you that update. We'll continue to hop on as we see things that are of interest to us that we think is our interest to you that you should keep an eye on as well. For now, I'm TJ Holmes along with Amy Buck. Talk to y' all soon.

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[TJ Holmes]

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