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- [00:00]
A
This is an iHeart podcast.
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B
Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial.
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A
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Amy and TJ Presents Me, Aubrey o' Day covering the Diddy trial. And as always, our coverage of the Diddy trial continues. So I just want to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and that TJ and Amy are on a much needed vacation. And I can't wait to. To announce my guest today who I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is Dr. Hillary Goldcher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert in trauma recovery and emotional healing. She has over 10 years of experience in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the treatment of couples relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, girl, I think I have experienced almost all of these, so I am so happy to talk to you.
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B
I got you. I got you. Thank you so much for having me.
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A
Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular, the forensic psychologist Don Hughes. Let me first establish. Don Hughes testified for the prosecution. She testified to trauma bonding, delayed reporting, substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing on this conversation. I think it's important to establish with you out the gate why women stay with their abusers as it pertains to the Diddy trial.
- [01:39]
B
Yeah. This is the question that's sort of floating around the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved, I'm sort the sort of silver lining is that we get to talk about this. Absolutely. The question you just asked is complex. And a lot of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's a fair enough question or a fair enough set of complex factors that get one who is curious and trying to understand this complex situation to ask why. I don't get it. Why? Why would someone stay when things are bad and scary?
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A
Yes.
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B
That can lead to blaming the victim or minimizing their trauma. And it's a really negative vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse. So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have a lot to say about why. So feel free to interrupt.
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A
Go for it. I'm. I'm. As I was listening to her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her conversation that she had include testimony that she had including utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had groomed and established with me that that's how I can get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey, I want more, I love you, I can't live without you, let's make the next one more wild. This is making so many people react in a way where they think, clearly she wanted it clear, clearly she's asking, clearly she was willing. And we all know that there are absolutely established events that were not willing and that were not wanted. But for the ones that were during cross examination, I think it's good to start breaking down why women do that and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men, by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive.
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B
I'm really glad you pointed that out because obviously there's shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence, given the pull of male female roles that society establishes. But you're right.
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A
And by the way, I want to jump in with you there. When I first started this process when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more. I potentially knew more alleged male victims than women and still potentially, you know, alleged victims. I know more men than women. It's so much harder. And when I, when I hear them discuss how, what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely different set of things than women do. But we know that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now, which is a bunch of people calling you names and making fun of the things that you would do in private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you can only imagine how much more complex it goes on the other side and all of the stigmas that are associated there. But, but I find that men even have a harder time. Women have come out and so it is a little bit more of a conversation. But you do know instantly when you come out, you likely the first thing you will experience is being slut shamed and not believed. If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power, or more of a fan base or a liking.
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B
Before I get into kind of the macro buckets of why people stay, I'll start where you ended. Because shame is such a thematic reason why both men and women stay. When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation or just even telling their community that they've been involved in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission that they stayed and endured abuse and the potential reaction of the community around them.
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A
And let me stop with you on that right there. I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell people on a very, like, on a larger level. And the response from both the person that was involved in it and the people around was, if it was so bad, then why did you stay? That to me, was always something that would make my blood boil and I would try to keep. The more almost that you try to explain that, the more they sit back and think that you're full of it. It was so difficult for me to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're definitely abusive and she's definitely been abused. That line alone, for me is a tell. Now, maybe it's not always a tell, but. But for me, it's a pretty big tell. And I hate that we're getting caught up in that place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to me about what they are and let. Let our audience know what they are. There's no general trait of any one victim. I'm so different than other victims that I know how I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's just a way that you are. The way that you're groomed. The process in which you fall for these people and you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation. For me, isolation was a big part of it. I didn't have anybody to lean on. So discuss what those factors are.
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B
Oh, you're so well versed.
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A
And I'm going to cover, unfortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this, you know, I love that you have made very good decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid these types of people in the world. But please make space for the possibility that these things are very real for other people.
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B
Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in their sphere that have just have an open mind. It is a complex notion, but take a listen to the set of factors that can intersect that can result in really strong, amazing women becoming victims over a very long period of time. So let's kind of start on the macro. There are a number of reasons, and they usually pool together that result in women or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall under the following categories. There may be more. I might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal and empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these. Logistical, financial, physical safety.
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A
Does the first one run into childhood trauma?
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B
Yes, we're going to start there, right. Psychological and emotional factors. So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse comes from a family. And the details and the narrative and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But at the core is some version of abandonment, some. Some version of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value. And either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario, a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and affirms that they're okay, that they're of value, that they're worthy. And if they end up with someone that can provide that at times. But there's emotional and physical rent to pay through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes the person can't garner the internal resources to value their emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when the person is kind to them, when the person is bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth.
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A
And self worth also does not have a beauty standard. There are a lot of people that look at Cassie and don't understand how she could have ever had any low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according to social standards. But I do want to make clear that, you know, I. When I would experience it, it was exactly what you said, due to abandonment from childhood. And even when I met Diddy, relating this back to Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but if I, if you were to ask me now, who would you want to revisit in your past, of all the accomplishments you've had, whose praise would you want to revisit that made you feel the most full and still at 41, after tons of fucking therapy and tons of healing and moving to Bali for two years and doing every little thing that I possibly could because talking to a person and all of the other things just wasn't enough. I still would say Puff, and that's because he's just so. I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming. I've only met a few very powerful people in life and I've met them all, mostly that steal the air out of the room. You almost have this palpable reaction, like when they come in because you're gasping for air, because their presence is so big. Now in that case, that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room. But I've met people on. On everyday levels that. That I can see in their relationship are just exhausting. All the air in the room. It's the same type of feeling on a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of you and be impressed with you because he. So he rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well and all the things that you needed to fix. And it wasn't healthy language that was being used or it's grooming is what it is. Putting us in scenarios where our dreams are held over our heads and making us do ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves time and time again. It was called reality TV and a network and a production and a whole bunch of other people signed off on it and thought it was funny and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I think it is also part of the response. It needs to take accountability for itself in regards to how many people looked up at a television then and decided that to be life as it is to decided to. For that to be an example for them in one way or another. You were seeing this very powerful person, a lot of people that were enamored by his presence doing all kinds of ridiculous continuously having to prove themselves in ways that are unreasonable. Like run Central park until two of you fall and that's who's going home. Yes, these are unreasonable things. I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up under that. That situation that had to do that or was expected to do that.
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B
What you're talking about is the power balance imbalance was normalized and sanctioned and popular. Right?
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A
Popular. Popular amongst people that wanted to watch it. Or I wouldn't have returned for that many seasons. Because they can't keep a show on that no one wants to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives and those narratives play out right in front of us on our televisions. This the way that I saw that I returned back to a healthy state was I had to disconnect from this country. Yes, I had to leave and go to another country and live there and disconnect socials and everything and get out of the way of the way that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency. Your content is your life. If you're in entertainment. We have such an addiction to these devices that are truly giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do you Advise to people who are seeing shows on television or seeing articles on their phones without. You know, we've had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's lives without any proof or reaching out to find out if anything is factual. Just blanket making statements that aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they could be definitely in a position to be. I think what it is personally is creating an identity for people. When you're. When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you could end up on a pretty bad path in life.
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B
Yeah, it. It's a big ask for people to disconnect from their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive. Very seductive.
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A
Is that all it takes? Seduction?
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B
Well, I mean, it intersects with a number of factors. Right. Probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right. Imbibing those headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a version of a dopamine hit. Right. It's an escape from our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to be righteous and judge, which can give us an avenue to escape from our own pain and give you a high.
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A
To be able to be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit of a serotonin boost, almost.
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B
That's right.
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A
Question for people out there that are trying to get out of a toxic situation or out of a situation where they're being abused. I have a lot of people writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships, and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice.
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B
Let me do a quick summary of why people are there, and then we'll go into. How do you begin to even think about extracting. So we talked about that emotional psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in their childhood childhood end up in abusive relationships. Of course, that's true. But people who end up in abusive relationships often have this as a background. Yes. And so that's one of the aspects that we more often than not see. The other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame. The internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming, can cause emotional paralysis. What we call a severe collapse response, where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position, unable to think, unable to act, the entire nervous system shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision, should I stay or should I go? The body goes into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight states. And we have cortisol, the stress hormone, running through our body. We have adrenaline running through our body, which is adrenaline. And what does that do? That, amongst other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So that is absolutely part of the reason that people are unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally have nowhere to go, where am I going?
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A
And abusers do a good job of isolating you away from your finances, such as, you know, Cassie Case, there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away. At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels, your abuser could see something minor that you had a little flaw about, and pick at it.
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B
Yes, that's right. That's right. Break you down, your confidence and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or incapable and beating them down day after day after day so that even if the fact pattern isn't true, the. The woman is absolutely cap. She internalizes that she's not. So you're right. Logistics often go together. I have nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money and intersects with that first tenant, which is shame. If I. Because people listening might say, well, like, go to your best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor, go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed for how badly I feel about myself, for allowing myself to be in this position. My fight or flight system has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do it anything.
- [18:31]
A
And also that parallel, the paralyzed feeling for me when I was in it was so significant that I don't think I could have gone to Google and found a therapist and waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on where you're at or what your access is. In the exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean, I had points where he would lock me outside of the house to punish me if there was something I did that he didn't like. And I would ring the doorbell, he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time. But through a pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine had done that to me in childhood. And then when I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has me out here in next to nothing for clothing. So I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this. I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only way for me through the punishments were a drug that I was given by somebody senior that made me be able to go to sleep and forget about everything. Called Ambien.
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B
Yes.
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A
And so, you know, in Cassie State there, there was a lot of access to a lot of different drugs, but I knew that without. And sometimes I'd be without my phone. The only thing that I would beg for and I would need in any of those settings was enough Ambien to sleep and forget and wake up and try again. And sometimes it took months, multiple times. Sometimes I was out there overnight. But I would do my best. And. And. And people would never believe this coming from me because they tend to see me as such a confident person. I do not even understand how I got there.
- [20:09]
B
Oh, Aubrey, I'm so, so sorry to hear this. I'm having a visceral reaction to that experience.
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A
Me too. Just thinking I'm. I've shed that person so many times. All the layers of that human. I don't. I ache for her.
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B
I do, too. And if you don't mind, I'll use your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right? You feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before, which is a severe response collapse, which is actually a phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a completely regressed state, where you cannot.
- [20:48]
A
On the floor. I was on the floor. Asked for water. It was in a dog bowl.
- [20:52]
B
I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated. And I really appreciate your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners understand that someone as resilient and strong and sort of together as you are in a peer can have an intersection of factors occur where they wind up in this position. The other unique thing that happens in abusive situations that I think is confusing, abusing people as they listen to the trial and you've briefly alluded to in your own experience is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right? So even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted was for him to come and get you and tell you you were in good standing again. And so what. What is this? What is this that we want the Abuser to say, no, actually, I pick you. I choose you. You can come back inside, metaphorically and literally come back in my, in the fold. This, and I believe this was discussed on the stand by Dr. Hughes. Well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding. And let me say a little more about it because I think people use it so casually these days that it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint. But trauma bonding is, is around the notion that abuse often follows a cycle. Right. Where there's tension building, the victim is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens and the, the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional, mental or both. And then there's the pull for the victim to reunite. It's essentially getting their fill of nutrients, their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless. There's no other resources or connection or people available because of all the things I just said.
- [22:41]
A
Or their most important self exists within being with that man.
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B
That's right. And so that pull to get reconnected and get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower the victim with all the things that make them feel loved, whether it's tangible goods or. Oh, man.
- [23:08]
A
I came home to the brand new phone. There was a display. I posted it to show how much I was loved.
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B
Loved, yes.
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A
They just didn't see all the things that I had to go through to get to that day.
- [23:18]
B
Yes. And so for someone going back to our original discussion around abandonment and early childhood trauma, getting that honeymoon and that sort of deluge of the showing of love and affection is so compelling and seductive. That's part, it's not the only reason, but that's part of why the cycle stays intact. And that that intermittent reinforcement of love and cruelty creates a powerful emotional dependency.
- [23:48]
A
Yes. Stronger than drugs. I wish it could have been easier than drugs. It's stronger than drugs to get over. If you watch intervention now, put that times 5 billion. That's what somebody who is in an abusive toxic cycle times 5 billion is trying to recover from. It's so difficult. I remember even I did everything and I mean, I would separate, I would get with people, I would get into therapy. I luckily have a best friend who's a therapist who would connect me back in. And I sat with a therapist in LA that was like, you know, off insurance, 550 bucks an hour. She's a therapist to all the celebrities. And she would have known exactly what it was. I found myself with therapists a lot of times that didn't. That I could see looking at the clock or that I could see, didn't truly haven't. They would go like, wow, really? Like they couldn't understand Joe. Just what I went through with Diddy. Because it was. I was talking in such extremes. I could see their level of shock. And I realized, like, oh, I can't even take them past this point. They're not going to be able to understand it. And. And then I noticed when I went to this woman that I spent all of this money and she would give me these gems and I would leave and I would feel confident on my drive home from Malibu. The whole time I knew it. But by the time six or seven or eight rolled around and my abandonment sunk in and my loneliness and because being in this industry and being a celebrity is super isolating in general, I start to want that feeling of my. What I thought it was is my best friend back. My happiest, highest self was when we were connected. It was the most. It felt like. It felt like somebody loved me for real. Not like a fans telling me I love you all over the place. That never resonated as real to me. So I remember getting running right back to him and I remember getting in the car out of the airport and him laughing and saying to me, look at my brand new watch. Watch, babe. It costs this much money, babe. Look at babe. I have a new Rolex, babe. You spent all that money on therapy and I got a new watch, babe. But you're still here with me, babe. Huh, babe. Good choice, babe. And I remember thinking to myself, it's true, I have spent as much money as that watch is trying to get over this person. And at the end of the day, a therapist cannot. They can guide you to the water, but you have to drink. Which is why I ended up going to Bali and getting out and trying other. Other sources to check in with myself. Mostly the disconnection was the important part, but I had to get out of it somehow. And therapy was just not working enough because they can only tell you as much as they can tell you. But you have to want the change and you have to be able to make the change when you leave there. You can feel so empowered in the sessions. But I found, and that's for anybody that maybe is in therapy feeling that power and then leaving and going right back. I found myself doing that for years.
- [26:37]
B
Yes, well, you're highlighting a really significant aspect of this, which is the addictive nature. And I'm not using that term in quotes. I'm talking about science, chemistry, what happens in the brain. And we alluded to this earlier, but just like when you use drugs or drink or gamble, etc, and there's, I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but there's a version of a dopamine and a serotonin hit, which is the feel good chemical inside of us. The exact same thing happens during the reunification process with an abuser for all of the reasons that I was just describing and, and, and more that we can go into if we find the time. But it is the same process. And so you're talking about literal detox. I'm, I, I don't mean detox in quotes. You're talking about in part, to truly get away from an abusive relationship, you have to detox, which means, means you have to be away from the person. And whatever that takes, whether it's moving to another country or some curation of resources amongst your community, can change from scenario to scenario, of course, but that's what you're talking about. And in the absence of true detox, that is not being with the person, you're not going to be able to truly go away. Why? Because your brain will seek the hit of the serotonin and dopamine time and time again in a very similar way that an addict does. And so conceptualizing that way first helps people understand as they're observing and thinking about it from the outside, but also helps people in it perhaps think about resources in a different way. As someone who specializes in this arena is going to be very useful. But the curation of resources to help with removal from this has to be incredibly robust, which I don't want to end our time together, I know we're not almost done, but without saying this, which is the final but critical piece that I'm thinking about around why people stay is the fear of retaliation.
- [28:38]
A
And that's huge with Cassie. Keep going.
- [28:40]
B
Yes. Empirically, Empirically, data, statistics, the most dangerous period for abuse victims is when they're thinking about leaving when they leave. And in the aftermath.
- [28:54]
A
The aftermath is a big one that we don't talk about enough. The aftermath, you know, you can't get those highs anymore. So you're dependent on, you got to find something for the high or you got to be ripe and ready for change. And change is not an easy thing to just snap your fingers and go to as you get older. You learn that you have more control over your brain than you think. But when you're younger and you're still learning, I would look around anywhere and everywhere for it. And unfortunately, specifically in Cassie's case, there were so many things that. That there were so many addictions around her that, that she had many things to overcome. It seems like everybody's found, had to find ways outside of Puff to. To. To move into places to move into that would provide their sense of self anymore. Sense of self meaning you can wake up and feel joy and happiness just within yourself.
- [29:50]
B
So you're talking about two pieces. One is the internal risk of the victim once they leave, recklessly searching for that high.
- [30:00]
A
Yes. For anyone that didn't understand what she had to say in regards to being in fear of him or they didn't believe it. You can believe it. After Kid Cudi testimony, those are two different people and the result of both. Two different statuses, two different relationships with the man. And yet the common denominator in all of it is force, violence, extreme violence, and people not even coming forward and wanting to tell on the person or create a proper trail amongst the public of the events and the behaviors out of fear of retaliation. So it existed on all levels with him. Now I want to take you through before we finish the cross examination so we could kind of go over the way that the defense team is kind of using a multi pronged strategy in regards to obviously the denial of the allegations. They've categorically denied them. More learning, I don't know. Not so true. They are attacking her credibility. We've seen that on the stand. We've seen that with mom, multiple witnesses, financial motivations, career opportunities, inconsistencies and testimony. Continuing to seek the relationship with Puff after you've already gone over why all of those would occur. Specifically, A lot of people have issues with Don Hughes. What are your thoughts on that? She kind of got beaten up during the Amber Johnny trial. That left all of us sitting on the edge of our seats because there was such an admiration for Johnny Depp. Anyone that was explaining her behavior that they, you know, some people felt was. Didn't come off as sincere. Don Hughes took a lot of heat when trying to explain that they have made the criticism specifically in this case that she did not interview Cassie, she did not interview Diddy, she has not sat down with anyone involved in this and she does not know their personal records, health records, mental health records. Is there some kind of, is there something to say for that defense? For that specific defense?
- [32:11]
B
Yeah, I I. I mean, I don't think we can out of hand dismiss the truth that she didn't directly interview the victim or the alleged perpetrator.
- [32:22]
A
Would you be able to believe her in your profession, even if she hadn't done that?
- [32:26]
B
It's common practice. It happens all the time. I mean, if you.
- [32:28]
A
I didn't know that.
- [32:30]
B
If you look at many cases that are not high profile, there is often, not always, but often an expert brought in who has not had access to anyone on the defense or anyone in the prosecution side. So it's an argument that is utilized often and so it makes sense the defense would raise it. And in my opinion, you would stipulate to that. Absolutely. I'm not trying to suggest I have victims or the alleged perpetrator. I clearly have not. And just like myself, if you have expertise clinically, anecdotally, over many, many decades.
- [33:06]
A
You know, you can have an educated opinion on what's going on here. No question they did say she's only ever worked with victims, never with the abusers themselves. So to get a fair perspective of both sides, they feel that would have been necessary. Do you agree with that or no?
- [33:22]
B
Again, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as a truth. But most, not all, but most clinicians that specialize in domestic violence and clinicians might comment that this isn't true for them. But most, if not many, either treat victims or perpetrators and don't necessarily treat both. They become.
- [33:46]
A
Why is that? Why is that? I would want a full perspective almost to. If there is any saving grace on an abuser side, which. Listen, I know I'm not a psychologist, so I, I can say what everybody thinks. That sounds like some bullshit to me, but if I'm being fair and I'm wanting to stay as professional as possible, I'd want to hear both sides out and understand the mentality. I don't know that we need to understand the mentality of an abuser, but is there something to that?
- [34:13]
B
I mean, there's sort of a professional reason which is less interesting that when you have areas of expertise, you become hyper focused on that particular area. So if you're an expert in working with domestic violence victim, just do a deep dive into that particular population and how you would treat them and conceptualize those cases would be wildly different than how you would treat and conceptualize the case of an abuser. So some of it is just sort of professional trajectory and really focusing on a particular area of expertise, which many clinicians do, including myself on various topics like a clinician might say, I'm an expert in trauma and that's sort of all I do. I don't really do specifically depression, anxiety, even though those are aspects of trauma, for example. So it's not unheard of in my world to focus on one or two arenas and have it be your area of focus. You as a clinician treating victims, have. Besides someone who only treats or also treats perpetrators or alleged perpetrators, you have as much insight as possible relative to the normal practitioner into the world of and the patterns of abusers. So while you might not work directly with them, you have a lot of anecdotal and clinical data from your work with victims or collaborative efforts with all of the people involved or even your.
- [35:40]
A
Overall understanding of abuse in general. You maybe don't even have to specifically work with either side in your profession. You have enough information to understand the patterns. And unfortunately what people don't realize is these patterns are pretty common and pretty standard and pretty repetitive when it comes to every case. There are certain things that thread through even that you feel two cases are completely different. Different. Now question Is it possible that somebody could make up and lie about everything that they're experiencing and an abuser could be wrongly accused? Do you see that happening a lot or is it very rare?
- [36:17]
B
I would say it's somewhere in the middle. I don't think it happens a lot in like clinical and anecdotal experience. That's quite a thing to put yourself through to come out as a victim and have it not be be true. And there are other psychological factors going on. If that's the case, it's not unheard of. It, it, it hasn't never played out double negative, but so that it, it occurs less than occasionally A pretty small amount. A very small amount. And in this case, in the, in the Didy case, there is a, not a, a myriad of it appears of collaborating evidence that's been submitted in court in terms of eyewitnesses and texts and videos, et cetera, that, that suggest this isn't the case. But yes, it has occurred before.
- [37:05]
A
Okay, so question, last question. For anyone out there right now, if I could revisit Mini Me and anyone out there that is currently in this, in this situation or they're identifying or feeling very triggered by what they're seeing. Obviously in my opinion, I would suggest look around you and see how recognizable the things you're seeing in front of you or looking at in front of you. You if they're mirroring anything that you're experiencing currently around you. Even people that speak about it in a certain way. I would pay attention to that as well as I want your advice to anyone out there that's potentially in a situation like that. Is there some, is there something that I could have heard or anyone that has been in this could have heard that could have have made us feel like there was a walkable path to get there sooner than we did?
- [38:01]
B
Yes, and I'm going to deliberately oversimplify my answer because anyone in this position is completely overwhelmed and has their nervous system triggered and their inability to think or consider options is limited if almost non existent. So my piece of advice, my first edict is tell a safe other. Tell a safe other. If you can just do that. If you can just do that, it opens up the door for your experience to be mirrored back to you as the reality of what it is and for resources to begin to be curated.
- [38:41]
A
And also can you please give the safe other who has somebody come to them and say that to them a great directive to help them? Because sometimes a lot of safe others others don't know how to respond and maybe we can help save others out as well.
- [38:58]
B
So if you hear this information, err on the side of believing and say that out loud.
- [39:05]
A
Say that again for the cheap seats Doc.
- [39:09]
B
If you are the safe other, err on the side of believing and say it I believe you and that is not okay. Those are the two things that you should say. I believe you. It is your right to notice, your right to say it's not okay and then I will help you. And safe other should not know how they should go about helping someone because that's not their area of expertise. But find someone who does. You know, talk to your primary care physician, Google therapist in your neck of the woods that specializes in domestic violence.
- [39:48]
A
Could someone do if they had no money and they had no health care and they had somebody that told them I believe you. But what could be a next step for somebody that does not have access to a doctor, a primary care physician, or can afford to go to somebody that they google?
- [40:08]
B
In most cities there are free or incredibly low fee clinics in most cities. If you're in a very rural part of the country that might not be true, but perhaps the safe other can take you to the nearest one. So googling free and or low fee clinic for mental health will get you in front of a provider or a clinician that can start to help you curate resources. There are safe houses also for domestic abuse survivors in in various cities, again not in the smaller ones, but that's another thing that your safe other can help you find. Is there a resource locally or somewhere that you can commute to as a first step?
- [40:52]
A
Thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation with you, Dr. Hillary, so much. You're so impressive. Obviously you know that. But I think this was an important conversation to have for people out there that are very triggered by this or experiencing it personally. And for those of you who haven't to truly leave space for the stories that you will continue to hear during this trial and for those that you're hearing around you, be that safe person for somebody and show up because this is something that really needs to start being mended on a larger scale. Thank you so much, Dr. Hillary. I really appreciate you taking the time with me today to discuss this.
- [41:34]
B
Thanks for having me and thanks for your bravery and sharing your story.
- [41:38]
A
All right, guys, tune in to another episode of Amy and TJ Presents Aubrey O Day covering the Diddy trial. This is an iHeart podcast.