Judge Won’t Unseal Epstein Co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell Grand Jury Testimony, Calls Trump DOJ Disingenuous and Misleading

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Episode Title: Judge Won’t Unseal Epstein Co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell Grand Jury Testimony, Calls Trump DOJ Disingenuous and Misleading
Date: August 12, 2025
Hosts: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes

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Overview

This episode dives into the bombshell ruling by Judge Paul Engelmeyer, who forcefully denied the Trump administration’s request to unseal grand jury files related to Ghislaine Maxwell and the Jeffrey Epstein case. The hosts break down the judge’s sharply worded dismissal of the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) arguments, his strong rebuke of political and public narratives, and what the ruling really means for those seeking the so-called “Epstein client list.” Throughout, Amy and T.J. cite direct passages from the judge’s decision, clarify misconceptions, and discuss broader implications for public trust in the justice system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage – Why This Ruling Matters

(02:21–03:15)

• Judge Engelmeyer denied the Trump DOJ’s request to unseal grand jury testimony involving Ghislaine Maxwell, delivering what the hosts call an “absolute beatdown” and “spanking.”
• The case has generated massive public interest, fueled by speculation about concealed evidence of powerful individuals linked to Epstein’s crimes.
• T.J. notes, “The judge said, hell no, gave them an F on their homework assignment and said he considered exposing them for the frauds they are.” (02:23)

2. What Was Actually in the Grand Jury Files?

(04:00–04:57)

• Amy explains the grand jury testimony was limited and did not include sensational evidence: “They weren’t listening to hearing from victims...a black book or some financial tracing...none of that stuff...was there during that grand jury testimony. It actually sounded fairly boring.” (04:00)
• Material sought to be unsealed, had it been released, would not reveal identities of clients or new criminal methods, evidence, or venues.

3. Dissecting the Ruling: Judge’s Arguments & Tone

(07:12–09:49)

• The judge stressed grand jury secrecy as foundational, “older than our nation itself.”
• There’s a very high bar to unseal these materials; DOJ’s request deemed a "garden variety petition" rather than “special circumstances.”
• Judge declared: “The entire premise that the Maxwell grand jury materials would bring to light meaningful new information about Epstein’s and Maxwell’s crimes...is demonstrably false.” (09:05)
• Amy: “He’s calling them liars.” (09:49)
• The hosts repeatedly emphasize that their summary is not interpretation—these are direct quotes and clear judicial statements.

4. The Media Narrative Vs. The Judge’s Text

(11:52–12:54)

• The DOJ itself admitted most information from the grand jury had already been made public at Maxwell’s trial or by witnesses.
• Nevertheless, public suspicion remains high, and the ruling is often misconstrued as hiding evidence.

5. Judge’s Quotes – The Most Definitive Moments

(15:23–17:47)

• T.J. introduces a critical quote:
  • “A member of the public...who reviewed the grand jury materials...would thus learn next to nothing new. The materials do not identify any person other than Epstein and Maxwell as having had sexual contact with the minor.” (15:49)
  • Amy emphasizes: “No powerful, unnamed figure was presented in any way, shape, or form.” (16:14)
  • Judge again: “They do not discuss or identify any client of Epstein’s or Maxwell’s.” (16:34)
  • “They do not reveal new venues...or new sources of their wealth...[or] the path of the government’s investigation.” (16:39)

6. The Motive Behind the DOJ’s Petition

(26:02–29:41)

• The judge openly suggests the DOJ’s motion was not about transparency but diversion:
  • "A member of the public...might conclude that the government’s motion for their unsealing was aimed not at transparency, but at diversion, aimed not at full disclosure, but at the illusion of such." (29:16)
• The judge considered releasing the materials solely to expose the dishonesty of the government’s public argument.

7. Public Trust, Conspiracies & the Political Environment

(17:47–18:41; 29:41–32:18)

• The judge recognized public disappointment: “You would come away feeling disappointed and misled because there is no There, there.” (25:24)
• Amy and T.J. discuss how the lack of transparency in past Epstein proceedings has fueled dangerous speculation and skepticism, often overshadowing concerns about actual victims.

8. The Judge’s Background and Political Fallout

(30:15–33:12)

• Engelmeyer is an Obama appointee; his previous rulings have led to political backlash, including articles of impeachment filed by a Republican congressman after a prior decision that disfavored the Trump administration.
• Amy laments: “That isn’t how our country is supposed to function. If you don’t like what a judge rules, you then try to get him fired or impeached...That ain’t how it’s supposed to work.” (33:12)

9. Victims’ Voices and Lasting Impact

(31:07–32:18)

• Amy stresses the original injustice: “...there was a lack of transparency. There was a feeling that these...young girls weren’t being listened to or heard...that’s where so much of this skepticism arises from...”
• T.J. calls out how the focus on politics has sidelined the stories and needs of Epstein’s victims.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A member of the public familiar with the Maxwell trial record who reviewed the grand jury materials...would thus learn next to nothing new. The materials do not identify any person other than Epstein and Maxwell as having had sexual contact with the minor.”
  — Judge Engelmeyer, read by Amy Robach (15:49–16:11)

• “They do not discuss or identify any client of Epstein’s or Maxwell’s.”
  — Judge Engelmeyer, read by Amy Robach (16:34)

• “They do not reveal new venues...new sources of their wealth....They do not explore the circumstances of Epstein's death. They do not reveal the path of the government's investigation.”
  — Judge Engelmeyer, read by Amy Robach (16:39)

• “Insofar as the motion to unseal implies, that the grand jury materials are an untapped mine load of undisclosed information about Epstein or Maxwell or confederates, they definitely are not.”
  — Judge Engelmeyer, paraphrased by Amy Robach (24:53–25:24)

• “A member of the public...might conclude that the government’s motion for their unsealing was aimed not at transparency, but at diversion, aimed not at full disclosure, but at the illusion of such.”
  — Judge Engelmeyer, read by Amy Robach (29:16)

• “If folks don’t want to believe this judge, okay, but who will you believe until you see it for yourself?”
  — T.J. Holmes (17:47)

• Amy: "No powerful, unnamed figure was presented in any way, shape, or form." (16:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:21 – Episode introduction; reiteration of the judge’s “beatdown” of the DOJ
• 04:00 – Amy summarizes what the grand jury files actually contain (or don’t)
• 07:12 – Explanation of grand jury secrecy and legal precedent
• 09:05 – Judge’s quote dismissing the DOJ’s premise (“demonstrably false”)
• 11:52 – Government’s admission that nothing new was in the files
• 15:23–17:47 – The strongest, most definitive quotes from the judge’s decision
• 24:53–25:24 – Judge dismisses the idea that these files hide new information
• 26:02–29:41 – Judge’s suggestion of government deceit and public misdirection
• 29:41–32:18 – Context of public trust, skepticism, and the original injustice to victims
• 30:15–33:12 – Political fallout, impeachment effort against Judge Engelmeyer

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Tone & Language

• The episode is direct, at times incredulous, and often impassioned—especially when discussing manipulation of public trust and the enduring scandal’s effects on victims and the public psyche.
• Hosts maintain a measured but critical view toward official narratives, using humor (“gave them an F on their homework”) and frankness to clarify legal jargon and judicial statements.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a thorough, candid breakdown of the ruling that puts to rest (at least legally) the notion that hidden bombshells exist in the sealed Maxwell grand jury files. By quoting extensively from the judge and highlighting the DOJ’s misrepresentations, Amy and T.J. stress the importance of trust in both the judicial system and public discourse—while urging listeners not to lose sight of the real victims at the story’s core.

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Transcript

[Amy Robach]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[TJ Holmes]

And here's Heather with the weather.

[Amy Robach]

Well, it's beautiful out there, sunny and 75, almost a little chilly in the shade. Now let's get a read on the inside of your car. It is hot. You've only been parked a short time and it's already 99 degrees in there. Let's not leave children in the backseat while running errands. It only takes a few minutes for their body temperatures to rise and that could be fatal.

[TJ Holmes]

Cars get hot fast and can be deadly. Never leave a child in a car. A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council. Tune in to all the Smoke podcast where Matt and Stack sit down with former first lady Michelle Obama.

[Amy Robach]

Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people and you're sitting in their kitchen tables and they're talking like we're talking, you know, you hear our story, how we.

[TJ Holmes]

Grew up, how Barack grew up, and.

[Amy Robach]

You get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race.

[TJ Holmes]

All the Smoke featuring Michelle Obama. To hear this podcast and more, open your free iHeartRadio app, search all the Smoke and listen now.

[Amy Robach]

Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman and on she Pivots I dive into the inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer. Jody Sweetie, Annika Patton, Elaine Welteroth. Learn how to get comfortable pivoting because your life is going to be full of them. Listen to these women and more on she Pivots now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[TJ Holmes]

I was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that. On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor and music executive to talk about the beats, the business and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R and B and and hip hop professionally. I started at Death Row Records. From Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson, we get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to Culture Raises us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy Robach]

We are telling our scientists today we have disdain for your expertise.

[TJ Holmes]

And then you have China as an.

[Amy Robach]

Exception saying, actually, we're gonna invest a.

[TJ Holmes]

Trillion dollars in new science. You heard that Right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down.

[Amy Robach]

This means here in the United States.

[TJ Holmes]

Less innovation, fewer breakthro, and falling behind on the global stage. This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton breaks down what these cuts really mean. Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, folks. It is August 12, and a judge didn't just say no to the Trump administration's request for those grand jury files about Epstein. The judge said, hell no, gave them an F on their homework assignment and said he considered exposing them for the frauds they are. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Ropes. I paraphrase there a little bit, but that is as accurate as you're gonna get. This was an absolute beatdown in this judge's decision. A spanking to the Trump administration.

[Amy Robach]

Yes, that. That's exactly well put. That was the sentiment throughout the entire 30 page response. You read it? I read it. And it was jaw dropping. I know that judges are supposed to judge, but he was extra judgy.

[TJ Holmes]

Would you not say, well, you're not used to them speaking that way? And I would say that we're missing a lot in a lot of the coverage and the headlines that we are seeing. I thought it was one thing. And even some of the quotes I saw the judge kind of admonish them for some things. Reading through it, this guy has been as clear as anybody in the whole Epstein saga about what is actually in some stuff that people are desperate to see. He flat out said, ain't nothing to see here.

[Amy Robach]

Exactly. And he made a really good point that I really hadn't considered this grand jury's secret testimony that the Trump administration that the Department of Justice wants released to the public in the name of transparency. The they had one day of talking to a police officer and another day of talking to an investigator who gave a summation report they weren't listening to hearing from victims they weren't presented with evidence, a black book or some financial tracing to powerful people who were named or possibly none of that stuff that we all have heard might be there was there during that grand jury testimony. It actually sounded fairly boring. And the things they don't want out there are really, really private things, like videos and pictures of minors being forced to do things they shouldn't have. So this wasn't anything that pointed the finger at anyone else.

[TJ Holmes]

And please, you all, do not take what we're saying here as our interpretation. We are going to share with you directly, more than you've probably seen out there. That's from this judge's ruling. His direct quotes that make clear. You don't need extra context. He makes it clear. Now, the reason we're all here is because the Trump administration has been getting all kinds of hell, mainly from its own base. Because in July they said, hey, we have no more files to release. There was no Epstein client list. He killed himself in prison. This thing is done. Obviously robes that didn't go over well and he's been dealing with it for a month.

[Amy Robach]

Plus, obviously that was the truth. That's the thing.

[TJ Holmes]

Nobody's gonna believe that.

[Amy Robach]

That's the thing. So, yes, with so much secrecy and so much speculation, and the fact that Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide, that Virginia Roberts also died by suicide, it just contributes to this conspiracy that there's a cover up that powerful people are keeping their names out of court records, even though they might be in documents or in evidence elsewhere.

[TJ Holmes]

So they say, no more files, gonna release. That's July 7th, July 17th. Got that wall Street Journal report about Trump sending a birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein. The next day, the DOJ asks courts to unseal documents. July 24, the DOJ interviews Ghislaine Maxwell. Remember, she's serving 20 years in prison in Florida, right? No, excuse me. She was in Florida.

[Amy Robach]

She was in Florida, now she's in Texas.

[TJ Holmes]

Yeah. Hear what I just said? July 24th, she got interviewed. A week later she got moved.

[Amy Robach]

Yeah.

[TJ Holmes]

To Club Fed.

[Amy Robach]

Club Fed is what it's called. Yes. The lowest security level possible for a federal inmate. And these are all nonviolent offenders. Ghislaine Maxwell is a violent offender, period. So based on her convictions.

[TJ Holmes]

Oh, yeah. And having to do with minors.

[Amy Robach]

Yes. And she, she there, she. It wasn't just about. When you start reading some of what the judge talked about and we'll get into it. But this, this evidence wasn't just about her helping Jeffrey Epstein. She was also participating in some of this absolutely disgusting behavior with minors.

[TJ Holmes]

So let us get you caught up on where we are now with this ruling. There was an earlier ruling by a different court in Florida. The DOJ had asked for that court to release some grand jury testimony having to do with Epstein's trial down there in 2009 or something like that. That court said, no, not going to release grand jury. So the government was trying for the New York cases that Epstein was being tried for, and the one that Ghislaine Maxwell ends up in prison for now. So Judge Paul Engelman, he Is the judge in the Southern District of New York. He was hearing the case. Let everybody have their say about releasing these grand jury files. Now, robes, grand jury secrecy. You don't have to be a court watcher to understand that's a pretty big deal. The judge started with that in his. In his ruling today, saying this is precedent. And the way he put it in his ruling, the policy that proceedings before a grand jury shall generally remain secret is older than our nation itself. This is in the first few lines of his ruling. So you could almost. He almost established the direction he was going to go. There's a high bar to open this stuff up.

[Amy Robach]

Yeah. Judge Engelmeier said, basically, this is part of the foundation of our legal system. This is part of why our system works. And so to ask someone to publicly unseal those records would have to rise to an extraordinary threshold, which they claim.

[TJ Holmes]

These are extraordinary times.

[Amy Robach]

Special circumstances, in fact, is, I believe, the phrase they've used, unusual historical or of deep public interest. And while the judge acknowledged, yeah, there is public interest for sure. The other ones, though, doesn't even come close. The judge said that this particular appeal by the Department of Justice doesn't apply to garden variety petitions for disclosure. That's how he described the DOJ's request. Garden variety petition versus special circumstances and public interest.

[TJ Holmes]

Historical and unusual public interest is public interest. This is not a matter of national security. This is not. We're talking about general public curiosity about something. The judge, we shared that this morning wrote, this is one that's kind of been out there, one of the quotes, and it is a. A big one, but it's not the biggest one we found. He told them that the entire premise that the Maxwell grand jury materials would bring light. Meaningful. Would bring to light meaningful new information about Epstein's and Maxwell's crimes or the government's investigation into them is demonstrably false. Now, he says this early in this ruling, but he's setting up what you're actually arguing. I don't necessarily have to judge your argument. What you're saying and saying is demonstrably false.

[Amy Robach]

He's calling them liars.

[TJ Holmes]

And then he went through and cut them down. Time, time. Again.

[Amy Robach]

He's. He basically, my. My takeaway from reading this was that he was calling the DOJ manipulative liars.

[TJ Holmes]

Because you're lying to the public.

[Amy Robach]

Correct. And manipulating it, or manipulating the public by making them believe that there is something there that would shed light and that they are trying to be transparent. They're doing everything they can to bring all the information that is sealed or under wr or secret so that then you are actually undermining public trust in our legal system. Undermining public trust in our judicial system. And that is I think, part of the reason why the judge was so stern and so specific in his response.

[TJ Holmes]

And again, folks, what you're hearing from us right now is not interpretation. We will continue to share this man's very quotes. Again, this is a 31 page briefing you can read all to yourself. But about the material we keep hearing robes about, whatever Epstein material that the DOJ says they have says nothing else to release because nothing else is going to be new. The judge, at least in terms of grand jury testimony, he agreed with that. Say there actually is nothing new here. Despite what you DOJ are saying publicly. You have at least in our briefings expressed that, you know, there's nothing new.

[Amy Robach]

Right. So he's calling them on it. He's like, you know, and I both, you and I both know that there's nothing there, but you're making the public think there is something there. And so he admonishes them and he used the government's own words against them. So this is what the government admitted to when they submitted this in the court order. They said the enclosed annotated transcripts show that much of the information provided during the course of the grand jury testimony, which with the exception of the identities of certain witnesses, was made publicly available at Maxwell's trial or has otherwise been publicly reported through the public statements of victims and witnesses.

[TJ Holmes]

Those are the government's words. The government that's telling you, hey guys, we want to make sure we get all this grand jury testimony out there for full disclosure. They have admitted in filings to this judge that there is nothing in there and he's using their own words in his ruling to call them on it. He is. This is not just, I mean, he's using facts and I think it's being reported in a different way for headlines. But there is so much in here that can move the story forward if people are willing to go, oh, wait a second, maybe we're being duped.

[Amy Robach]

Right. It's not. The judge isn't just saying, I'm not allowing you to or I'm not going to unseal the grand jury testimony because it's wrong or I don't believe we should, or there isn't precedent for it or you haven't. It hasn't risen to the level. No, he's going way beyond that and saying this is Some bs. This is a dog and pony show. You were trying to use this court. You were trying to use me in order to deflect from the truth, which is there is no new information, period.

[TJ Holmes]

We got that sound bite of say, soundbite. But that quote coming up, too. But he, he got onto them and that's. This is the one where I made a reference kind of to robes there. He gave them an F on their homework assignment. And he said, quote. The court's review confirmed that unsealing the grand jury materials would not reveal any new information of consequence. In response to the court's order, the government supplied the court with a binder highlighting any information that the government had been unable to determine is public. Only scattered words, clauses and occasional sentences are highlighted. These items are few and far between. That sounds like a school teacher telling a kid, you blew the homework assignment. That's what I asked you to do this. And you gave me a binder with some highlighted words. What are you doing? Is what he's saying. That's not me. We've all been admonished in that manner before by somebody that gave us an assignment. And you didn't do this good enough.

[Amy Robach]

Because they couldn't do the assignment. And that's the whole point. And can you imagine being on this team and what's at stake and the Trump administration telling you, hey, this, this needs to look a certain way and we need to put this on the judge. We're throwing it right back at the judge. And then the judge just throws it right back at you, like in a very public way.

[TJ Holmes]

You know what? Because he could have. You know what, you make a good point and this is probably out there, but what if the judge had not done all this and simply said, no, I'm not going to maybe gave a little legal reasoning for it. People would have gone after the judge. What is he trying to hide? And the government could have gone and say, look, we tried everything we knew to try.

[Amy Robach]

Don't you believe from all your years of experience that that's exactly what the government was hoping would happen?

[TJ Holmes]

And he. So you know what? Judges aren't supposed to. But he played a very good part public relations game here, if that's the case. But this worked to say, I'm not going to actually let you get away with this.

[Amy Robach]

The judge is a smart man. He too has had a lot of experience in politics and he too knew exactly what the government was trying to do, which was to push it right back on him and make him look like the bad Guy make it look like he denied the unsealing of the documents. He's the reason why you American public doesn't really get to know what was happening behind closed doors. That's exactly. And the judge knew that was the game they were playing. And he said, watch me.

[TJ Holmes]

All right, and this next one, folks, I have a note in here for Robach and I that says just stars around it, all caps, important quote. This is as definitive robes for anybody out there who is waiting for new information, who's saying something needs to be released because there's something in there we don't know. This next quote is one of the strongest statements I have seen in this entire saga about what is or isn't still left to be revealed.

[Amy Robach]

All right, so the judge wrote this. A member of the public familiar with the Maxwell trial record who reviewed the grand jury materials that the government proposed to unseal would thus learn next to nothing new. The materials do not identify any person other than Epstein and Maxwell as having had sexual contact with the minor.

[TJ Holmes]

That's an important statement.

[Amy Robach]

Huge.

[TJ Holmes]

That is a important statement.

[Amy Robach]

So that anything that's in there that the grand jury heard had nothing to do with anyone else. No powerful, unnamed figure was presented in any way, shape, or form. Okay, so the judge goes on to say about these files that they want released. They do not discuss or identify any client of Epstein's or Maxwell's.

[TJ Holmes]

Boom. Again, another important sentence, please.

[Amy Robach]

They do not reveal any heretofore unknown means of methods or. Sorry, Unknown means or methods of Epstein's or Maxwell's crimes. Meaning we're not going to learn anything about how they did what they did or why they did what they did. They do not reveal new venues at which their crimes occurred. A lot of people want to know, did it happen at someone else's house, on someone else's plane? Like this is. Everyone's looking for someone else who's involved. He's saying, nope. None of this reveals anything new about venues or where the crimes occurred. They do not reveal new sources of their wealth. That's huge, because a lot of the implications were that perhaps Epstein was blackmailing power for people because he had photographs or videos of them participating in some of these crimes. And so he's. He's amassed his wealth by blackmailing people. So the judge is specifically saying any of these files or anything the grand jury heard does not reveal new sources of their wealth. They do not explore the circumstances of Epstein's death. They do not reveal the path of the government's investigation.

[TJ Holmes]

If Folks don't want to believe this judge. Okay, but who will you believe until you see it for yourself? This is a man sitting on the Southern District Court of New York. This is a federal judge telling everybody the thing you're looking for. There ain't a name, there ain't a client list, there ain't a new crime. There is nothing else. The stuff you're looking for just ain't there.

[Amy Robach]

It's possible that the stuff people are looking for died with Jeffrey Epstein. And that is possible. If there is other stuff you know, we don't even know that for sure. But who's it sit with if there.

[TJ Holmes]

Is the most powerful prisoner in the country is the only. You said it died with Epstein.

[Amy Robach]

It died with Epstein. But yes, it could possibly live in Ghislaine Maxwell. But there might not be anything to know beyond what we already do. Who was on his plane, who visited him, who partied with him, who went to dinner with him. That doesn't mean that they participated in illegal acts with him.

[TJ Holmes]

That was probably. If that's not the strongest quote he has in his. In his ruling, there might be one other that is giving it a run for his money. And we will share that with you also. Exactly who is is this judge? Well, he was a judge that a few months ago, somebody filed articles of impeachment against him.

[Amy Robach]

Before we go to break, I have to tell you about new leggings I've been living in lately. They're from this brand called Tona. And fun fact here, they were actually designed by the same visionary behind Lululemon. So from that alone, you already know they're going to be pretty good. These leggings feel like a second skin. They're super flattering, super comfortable, and somehow still supportive. I've been wearing them on my morning runs and they've quickly become my everyday lounging leggings too. And here's what makes them even better. Every pair you buy helps fund a mental health counseling session for a teen in need. Tona's on a mission to end teen suicide and self harm, which we think is so important and incredible. So we've partnered with Tona to give you 20% off your order and free shipping. Head to tonaactive.com and use code iheart for 20% off and free shipping.

[TJ Holmes]

In sitcoms, when someone has a problem, they just blurt it out and move on. Well, I lost my job and my parakeet is missing.

[Amy Robach]

How was your day?

[TJ Holmes]

But the real world is different. Managing life's challenges can be overwhelming. So what do we do? We get support. The Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council have mental health resources available for you at loveyourmindtoday.org that's loveyourmindtoday.org See how much further you can go when you take care of your mental health.

[Amy Robach]

Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman and on she Pivots I dive into the inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer. Jody Sweetin, Annika Patton. Elaine Welteroth. I'm Jessica Voss. And that's when I was like, I gotta go. I don't know how, but that kicked off the pivot of how to make the transition. Learn how to get comfortable pivoting because your life is going to be full of them. Every episode gets real about the why behind these changes and gives you the inspiration and maybe the push to make your next pivot. Listen to these women and more on she Pivots now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[TJ Holmes]

Hello puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings appearance on the puzzler with A.J. jacobs. The question is what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land? Jeopardy Truthers who say that you were given all the answers believe in.

[Amy Robach]

I guess they would be conspiracy theorists.

[TJ Holmes]

That's right. Are there Jeopardy. Truthers? Are there people who say that it it was rigged. Yeah.

[Amy Robach]

Ever since I was first on people.

[TJ Holmes]

Are like they gave you the answers. Right.

[Amy Robach]

And then there's the other ones which.

[TJ Holmes]

Are like they give you the answers.

[Amy Robach]

And you still blew it.

[TJ Holmes]

Don't miss Jeopardy Legend Ken Jennings on our special game show week of the Puzzler podcast. The puzzler is the best place to get your daily word puzzle fix. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't write songs. God writes songs. I take dictation. I didn't even know you've been a pastor for over 10 years. I think cult that you live in that develops you. On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor and music executive to talk about the beats, the business and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R and B and hip hop. This is like watching Michael Jackson talk about Thriller before it happened. Was there a particular moment where you realized just how instrumental music culture was to shaping all of our global ecosystem? I was 8 years old and the Motown 25 Special came on and all the great Motown artists, Marvin, Stevie Wonder, Temptations, Diana Ross, from Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson. We get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to culture raises us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kurt Brownohler. And I am Scotty Landis. And we host Bananas, the weird news podcast with wonderful guests like Whitney Cummings and tackle the truly tough question, why.

[Amy Robach]

Is cool mom an insult? But mom is fine.

[TJ Holmes]

No, I always say cool Kurt's a fun dad.

[Amy Robach]

Fun dad and cool mom. That's cool for me.

[TJ Holmes]

We also dig into important life stuff, like why our last names would make the worst hyphen ever.

[Amy Robach]

My last name is Cummings. I have sympathy for nobody.

[TJ Holmes]

Yeah, mine's brown Oler, but with an h, so it looks like brown Holer.

[Amy Robach]

Okay. That's okay. Yours might be worse. We can never get married. Yeah.

[TJ Holmes]

Listen to this episode with Whitney Cummings and check out new episodes of Bananas every Tuesday on the exactly right network. Listen to bananas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We continue now on Amy and tj Again, going through the ruling by this judge in New York, Engel Meyer from the Southern District of New York, saying, no to the Department of Justice. You cannot have those grand jury files about Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell released. And he kind of really rose like we said, just really shot them down in this ruling. And we gave what I thought was the most important quote in there before we took a quick break. The next note I have in here, I'm just not gonna joke you, you all. Before I wrote the quote down, I wrote a note to us on the side that said, holy shit, Judge. And that's what it said. Because some of the stuff in there I couldn't believe.

[Amy Robach]

All right, so the judge goes on to say, insofar as the motion to unseal implies, that the grand jury materials are an untapped mine load of undisclosed information about Epstein or Maxwell or confederates. They definitely are. Not that he's saying it as plain as day in many ways in different sentences throughout those 30 pages. He just. He keeps hammering it home. There ain't nothing in these documents, period.

[TJ Holmes]

He said, anybody out there another one? He said. He said you would come away feeling disappointed and misled because there is no There, there, now, Robes. He could have. Like we said, he could have made a ruling and moved on, but it looked like he was. He knew what might be coming, and it was important to make all these points and to explain himself. But he also explained I was. I couldn't believe it. He said he considered releasing the grand jury information just to prove that their whole public argument is a farce that was strong. He wanted to release it just to prove your liars.

[Amy Robach]

I mean, that is telling. And I do appreciate the way he constantly says, anyone who's deeply interested or concerned about this, if you're an ordinary citizen, if you're a pundit, if you're a lawmaker, if you're a public official, any of you, I assure you, you would be disappointed. So he. He goes. He goes on to acknowledge all the people who are desperate for information, who desperately want to know. And he's saying, you, there's nothing to know. And I appreciate the fact that he is covering all of his bases, so.

[TJ Holmes]

To speak, in this way for the victims as well. He mentioned them at the end, part of it, saying some of them. He got letters. He even mentioned he's got letters from interested parties, maybe not necessarily part of the family, who were upset about it and chiming in. And he said, I understand why people are upset and why the victims might want this stuff released, because you have been misled. You have been led to believe there's something that is not there. And he gave this defense for a certain degree of his ruling. But Robes, he mentioned, I don't. You know, I didn't look up the city. I should look this up. But he mentioned precedent in another case in which a mayoral candidate named Mario Biaggi wanted grand jury testimony released. And the court in that case released it to prove a point, because he was out there telling the public as he was running for mayor, release that grand jury. I didn't do this. I didn't. So he is telling the public and misleading the public. He goes to court, they release the grand jury stuff. And sure enough, he had been lying to the public. This judge in this case cited that one and said, you know what? I had good mind to release this anyway just so the public could see you for what you're doing.

[Amy Robach]

Oh, that's wild. I mean, that really is wild if you think about that and who he's talking about. He's literally talking about the Department of Justice. He's not talking about a mayoral candidate in some small town. He is talking about our Department of Justice. He is talking about the United States government led by the Trump administration. Those are serious allegations, accusations. And I can't remember a time ever where a judge has come out this strongly against the Department of Justice. Yes, there can be disagreements, there can be arguments about precedent, arguments about whether or not something is worth or rises to a level, but this goes far beyond that. And he. I mean, like I said, he is calling everyone involved and everyone who's claiming to want this, from the government standpoint, released, misleading, manipulative liars.

[TJ Holmes]

And Biaggi was, in fact, yes, New York should have known, but it was Mario Biaggi.

[Amy Robach]

Makes a lot of sense.

[TJ Holmes]

Yeah, it does. Doesn't. Who was running. But that was the case. So the judge. And again, we are not interpreting. We're going to get. This is a direct quote. We are not just assuming what the judge was talking about. He said this, quote, the one colorable argument under the doctrine for unsealing in this case, in fact, is that doing so would expose as disingenuous the government's public explanations for moving to unseal. Holy hell, yes.

[Amy Robach]

And then he goes on to say a member of the public appreciating that the Maxwell grand jury materials do not contribute anything to public knowledge might conclude that the government's motion for their unsealing was aimed not at transparency, but at diversion, aimed not at full disclosure, but at the illusion of such.

[TJ Holmes]

I mean, he couldn't make it any more plain.

[Amy Robach]

How long do you think it took him to write this? And how much pleasure did he take writing it? Or was he nervous, concerned about what possibly could happen in terms of backlash?

[TJ Holmes]

You know, given the politics these days, who knows? But he's supposed to be doing his job. And I guess, and some would say all you do is interpret the facts and leave it as such. But, I mean, judges give judgment from the bench all the time about what they think about this defendant or stop doing. They do it. It's judgment. So I don't. Obviously, it's always politics. So someone would look at this and say, oh, he must be an Obama appointee, which he is.

[Amy Robach]

He is. Turns out he is. And that's probably a lot about what we'll hear. If we do hear anything back about this judge from the DOJ or the Trump administration, they're going to make that point very clear.

[TJ Holmes]

But who do we. Who do we put our trust or our faith in? If somebody doesn't say something that I like, that's on my side of the aisle, then automatically they're on the other side, and they're evil and they're misleading me. This is a judge. I mean, I don't know what his political leanings are and anybody should give a damn. And if he does lean all the way left, this means he can't do his job. I don't know. But in all this story seems to be. This is the most definitive and I would say, sweetheart, the most authoritative voice we have heard that is just not left or right, just authority on. I reviewed this stuff, and you all are being fooled about what's in there. And I'm trying my best to help y' all here without violating grand jury secrecy.

[Amy Robach]

And I appreciate everything he said as someone who covered this. Way back before any of it even became public or became of public interest at all, there was a lack of transparency. There was a feeling that these girls, these girls, these young girls weren't being listened to or heard. And so that is the foundation from which so much of this skepticism arises from, because he was allowed to continue to do what he did, and people turned their heads and they didn't hold him accountable. And he was given a sweet deal in the state of Florida, and he did run around in very powerful circles. So it's understandable. This story has all of the elements where, yes, I. And so many of the people have been incredibly skeptical of what the truth is and how much we get to know and how much is known that this comes from a place of absolute truth in the sense that we were duped, we weren't being told the truth, and really important information wasn't being let out, and girls, young girls, were not being protected. And that's where a lot of this anger comes from. And that's where a lot of the skepticism comes from.

[TJ Holmes]

Unfortunately, too much of the politics has come into it. Somebody's trying to get somebody instead of actually getting at the truth. Because in all these conversations and robes in 20 minutes we've been on here, and that's on all of us, that the victims get mentioned once at the end kind of a thing. And it's. And I understand what the story is today, but I just. It's. It's always something to keep in mind and something that's important there. And I mentioned earlier this Judge Engelmeier, it was in February, was it Robes. He was. They had articles of impeachment introduced in Congress against him. A Republican in Arizona introduced these articles of impeachment, and he did it two weeks after this judge gave an unfavorable ruling to the Trump administration that had to do with the Treasury Department using granting access to Doge. He ruled against them. Two weeks later, articles of impeachment were introduced by a Republican out of Arizona.

[Amy Robach]

And that's just so frustrating because that's just not, I mean, I, I know supposed to isn't maybe something we should be harping on, but that isn't how our, our country is supposed to function. If you don't like what a judge rules, you then try to get him fired or impeached or some sort of punishment for ruling against what you want to happen. That ain't how it's supposed to work.

[TJ Holmes]

Well, folks, we know this story is apparently not going anywhere.

[Amy Robach]

No, it's not.

[TJ Holmes]

Anytime soon. Even after Ghislaine Maxwell is pardoned, this story will probably.

[Amy Robach]

That's very funny, folks.

[TJ Holmes]

We always appreciate you all hanging out with us. And remember, we can make this easier on you. If you pick up that phone, open the Apple Podcast app right there. Where on the screen where our homepage is at, top right corner says follow. Just click on that. You can get these updates coming straight to. You won't have to look for them. But we always appreciate you hanging with us. I'm TJ Holmes.

[Amy Robach]

And I'm Amy Robach. Have a great day, everyone. Everybody.

[TJ Holmes]

I always had to be so good. No one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through [e-mail], brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. Tune in to all the Smoke podcast where Matt and Stack sit down with former first lady Michelle Obama.

[Amy Robach]

Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people and you're sitting in their kitchen tables and they're talking like we're talking, you know, you hear our story, how we.

[TJ Holmes]

Grew up, how Barack grew up, and.

[Amy Robach]

You get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race.

[TJ Holmes]

All the Smoke featuring Michelle Obama. To hear this podcast and more, open your free iHeartRadio app, search all the Smoke and listen now.

[Amy Robach]

Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman, and on she pivots. I dive into the insane, inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer. Jody Sweetie, Monica Patton, Elaine Welteroth. Learn how to get comfortable pivoting because your life is going to be full of them. Listen to these women and more on she Pivots now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[TJ Holmes]

That was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that. On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor and music executive to talk about the beats, the business and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R and B and hip hop. Professionally, I started at Death Row Records. From Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson, we get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to Culture Raises us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy Robach]

We are telling our scientists today we have disdain for your expertise.

[TJ Holmes]

And then you have China as an.

[Amy Robach]

Exception saying, actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars.

[TJ Holmes]

Science. You heard that right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down. This means here in the United States, less innovation, fewer breakthroughs and falling behind on the global stage. This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton breaks down what these cuts really mean. Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy Robach]

This is an iHeart podcast.