Killer Thriller: Kato Kaelin: O.J.'s strange behavior right before Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present – "Kato Kaelin: O.J.'s strange behavior right before Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered"

Date: April 9, 2026
Host: Elisa Donovan
Guest: Kato Kaelin

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Elisa Donovan and Kato Kaelin, a central figure and key witness in the O.J. Simpson trial. The discussion revolves around Kato’s experiences leading up to, during, and after the infamous murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Kato shares personal anecdotes, revisits his relationship with the Simpsons, and reflects on the trial's portrayal in media, the cultural aftermath, and how the events changed the course of his life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kato’s Life Before the Trial

• Kato’s Casting Business & Struggles in Hollywood
  • Ran an extras casting business with Grant Kramer, doing odd jobs, commercials, and pursuing an acting career.
  • "I was always kind of in the business... just the same actor's life trying to survive." (03:18, Kato Kaelin)
• Meeting Nicole Brown Simpson
  • Met through mutual friends in Aspen after Nicole’s divorce from O.J.
  • Kato became friends with Nicole and eventually rented her guest house.
  • “She was taking a liking to me with the kids... and then she said, I said, who lives in your guest house? Can I rent it? And then I rented it. And that was it.” (05:23, Kato Kaelin)

2. The Night of the Murders

• The McDonald’s Run with O.J. Simpson
  • Kato recounts O.J.’s unusual behavior, showing up at his door asking for change, leading to an awkward dinner trip.
  • "He came to my door and asked him if I could break a hundred dollar bill... he never really came to my door. Never." (07:10, Kato Kaelin)
  • The drive and meal felt strained; O.J. was unusually quiet and tense.
  • After returning, Kato heard odd noises and later what he thought might be an earthquake. He now believes it was O.J. in the side yard after the murders.
  • "I have nightmares... I feel like I ruined his timeline." (09:25, Kato Kaelin)

3. The Aftermath and Being a Witness

• Discovering the Murders
  • Police came to Kato’s door early in the morning. He was initially unaware of what happened, thinking maybe O.J.’s plane crashed.
  • "The whole time I was thinking, oh my God, did his plane crash? Because I knew he went to Chicago." (16:48, Kato Kaelin)
  • He overheard Detectives informing family members about Nicole’s death.
  • Encountered blood at the house and was questioned at the station for hours.
  • "I looked down and I saw all these blood drops. And then I was like, oh my God. And that was the blood they found in the house." (18:30, Kato Kaelin)
• Emotional Toll and Family Response
  • His mother repeatedly called, fearing for his safety, documented on an emotional answering machine tape.
  • "It was my late mom... half hour tape of her bawling because... no one knew who died." (19:41, Kato Kaelin)

4. Life in the Simpson and Brown Households

• Interactions and Observations
  • Spent time with both Nicole and O.J. but was not a close friend to O.J.; saw him as charismatic but distant.
  • Never personally saw violence, only aware of the infamous 911 call and aftermath.
  • "He was this charismatic man... loved being adulated." (12:05, Kato Kaelin)
• Relationship with the Kids and Kardashians
  • Got along well with Nicole’s children and Kardashian kids; felt trusted in the household.
  • "The Akita was named because the kids wanted to be Cato." (15:13, Kato Kaelin)

5. The Media Circus and Cultural Impact

• Trial Media Frenzy and Memorializing
  • Kato critiques how the trial became more about the lawyers, media, and celebrity than about the victims.
  • "It never was about them in the trial because the media... they went for different stories." (14:16, Kato Kaelin)
• Being Typecast and Impact on Career
  • Career suffered post-trial, often cast as a caricature of himself and lost normal acting opportunities.
  • "I was a caricature... they just wanted to meet me." (26:16, Kato Kaelin)

6. The True Crime Genre and Kato’s Acceptance

• Becoming a Voice and Leaning In
  • Initially reluctant to be part of the true crime culture, he ultimately decided to embrace his experience.
  • "I'm just going to embrace true crime... I think I have a voice to talk about it." (24:07, Kato Kaelin)

7. The People v. O.J. and Portrayal in Media

• Accuracy of TV Dramatizations
  • Praises but also critiques the Ryan Murphy series for embellishments and inserting him in fictionalized scenes.
  • "It wasn't true to life... They were putting me in scenes that I was never part of." (29:20, Kato Kaelin)
• Portrayal of Nicole and the Kardashians
  • Felt Nicole was barely represented, which was painful but reflected the trial’s focus elsewhere.

8. Personal Reflections & Lasting Effects

• Estrangement and Loss of Contact
  • No longer in touch with the Simpsons or Browns but wishes them the best.
  • "We just... touch was lost, and I don't know what is going on in their lives." (15:43, Kato Kaelin)
• Relationship with O.J. After the Trial
  • Only saw O.J. once again during the civil trial’s deposition; describes odd post-trial encounters.
  • Never truly afraid of O.J., but did have fears following the verdict’s public reaction.
  • "I guess a little bit [afraid]. I just kept thinking... when it actually ended, I was fearful that something could happen." (37:23, Kato Kaelin)
• Public Perception
  • Faced both admiration and hostility; called a hostile witness, spit on, and harassed at times.
  • "People thought that I didn't... say everything, that I come through... all the truth." (37:52, Kato Kaelin)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On O.J.’s Behavior the Night of the Murders:
  • “He came to my door and asked... if I could break a hundred dollar bill… he never really came to my door. Never.” (07:10, Kato Kaelin)
  • “He does this pause... like I overstayed my welcome sort of thing. And it was really uncomfortable.” (07:37, Kato Kaelin)
• On Regret and Trauma:
  • “I have nightmares... I feel like I ruined his timeline.” (09:25, Kato Kaelin)
• On The Moment of Discovery:
  • “I looked down and I saw all these blood drops. And then I was like, oh my god.” (18:30, Kato Kaelin)
• On Being a Witness:
  • “Probably by day four [on the stand]... in my head I'm going, OJ, if you did this... just say you're [guilty].” (22:14, Kato Kaelin)
• On Media Portrayals:
  • “It wasn't true to life. No. It was lots of embellishment.” (29:20, Kato Kaelin)
• On Public Reaction:
  • “Some people loved me, then some people hated me. I mean, there's incidents of being spit on.” (37:23, Kato Kaelin)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kato’s Life & Meeting Nicole: 02:37–05:31
• Relationship with O.J. and Night of the Murders: 06:09–09:25
• Hearing the Evidence & Early Morning After Murders: 10:05–16:48
• Trial, Media, and Public Perception: 22:14–24:32, 26:16–27:26
• The People v. O.J. TV Series Discussion: 28:58–31:08
• Reflections on the Media Circus and Legacy: 33:22–34:56
• Final Reflections and Impact: 37:23–End

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Final Thoughts

This episode presents a candid, emotional, and humanizing view of one of the most notorious criminal trials in American history through the eyes of Kato Kaelin. He reflects on the strangeness and challenges of being a peripheral figure thrust forcibly into the public eye, the trauma and surreal qualities of the infamous night and its aftermath, and the complexities of living as a symbol within true crime culture. The conversation balances dark moments with humor and nostalgia, offering both new perspectives and poignant reminders of the real people at the heart of a case that captivated (and divided) a nation.

Transcript

[Cato Kaelin]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer

[Elisa Donovan]

Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan. Hey, everyone. Elisa Donovan here. And welcome back to Killer Thriller. We are jumping right back into our conversation with Kato Kaelin, who ended up at the center of one of the biggest trials in history. From what that night actually felt like to how it's been portrayed ever since. There is a lot more to unpack with Cato. What he saw, what he lived through, and how he looks at all of it now. Cado, thank you so much for being here today and for being here in person.

[Cato Kaelin]

It makes a difference, doesn't it?

[Elisa Donovan]

It makes a really, really big difference.

[Cato Kaelin]

When you said, cato, we got a couch and it's a pull out. I was like, lisa, thanks a lot. I'm not. I can afford my own couch now. Quit picking on me.

[Elisa Donovan]

I was like, listen, listen, listen. We can help you out. We can help you out. I do wanna share with everyone what we just discussed, that when I first moved, first of all, I visited Los Angeles for the first time when I was living in New York the week of June 12, 1994. The Bronco Chase interrupting the Knicks game, all of this. And I went, what is wrong with this city? This is crazy. Then I moved to LA several months later, and the gym that I belong to, better known as Butts on Beverly, was on Beverly. And Sweetser. And I walk in the door and who is working out the gym but Cato Kaelin? And I'm like, what is going on?

[Cato Kaelin]

That's so funny. I think I asked you to. Can I get a spot?

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah, exactly. And it was like Bruce Springsteen, Dave Navarro that I had a huge crush on, I think he knew, and he sort of would, like, milk it and say hi to me all the time. And I was embarrassed. It was like quite a scene.

[Cato Kaelin]

Everybody worked out there and it was the cheap place to go. Do you remember when you'd work out there? You'd be in the bottom and you'd hear all the creaking upstairs, the weight. You go, this, and it's an old building. You're going, I know it's going to collapse.

[Elisa Donovan]

I 100% felt that.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. And it's so funny. And I was there for. I was there way before the trial, even during it.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

And it's. It really. Everybody was there and everybody kind of minded their own business. And as a matter of fact, you, David Spade, let's tell a story quick.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

David Spade made fun of an SNL because he'd do me in the trial on StairMaster and going a higher speed. That's all. I would do that at the high level, but that was back in the. A lot of aggression. So you get it out.

[Elisa Donovan]

I'm sure I didn't really. So. Okay, let's. Other than working out at the gym.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Like, what was a regular day like for you at that point? Before all this happened?

[Cato Kaelin]

I had a casting business. I had a day casting with a Grant Kramer. If, you know, Grant was on General Hospital. He did the movie Hard Parties. He was a big, big heartthrob. So Grant and Grant's mom's Terry Moore, who was with Howard Hughes. And so Grant and I started a business of casting. So it was more of the, like, extras casting. Although we did day parts for sag, so it kept our insurance going. And I'd get myself a part and, you know, in a film, like the lot of the lower budget, but psych films like Lorenzo Lamas and whoever. The Don Wilson. Like the karate films that are. Were huge back then.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes, yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

So I would do that and I'd be on sets until 4 in the morning and just wrangling people. So I was always kind of in the business doing that. And then I, you know, I had a few commercials and just the same actor's life trying to survive.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. And so you met. If I. If I. Correct me if I'm wrong, you met Nicole in Aspen on a trip. And, like, tell me how you wound up living with her first.

[Cato Kaelin]

So Grant and I were doing really well in the business and he said he was, you know, in that celebrity group and I sure wasn't. But he and I became buddies and we said, let's drive. He said, let's drive to Aspen. And we actually drove his Bronco. So anyways. But it was. It was not white. So he drove. Drove his car from LA to Aspen. He said everybody goes there the day after Christmas and. And spend the New Year's. So he did. And he used to do those ski, like Hawaiian Trop, all the celebrity ski tournaments. So when he was in Aspen, he said, I think that's Nicole at one of the parties. And they made eye contact. They knew each other and she was divorced from OG at the time. And they immediately kind of locked eyes. And the trip, it was just those guys together and I was the third wheel.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, wow.

[Cato Kaelin]

But that trip. Trip was.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, did they date? Did they wind up dating?

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, after the trip, they had a few dates. You know, they hung out. And while we're in that third wheel that we went out, I'd go out too with them sometimes because I was comic relief, I guess. And she had Faye Resnick with her. I didn't hang out with. But I end up meeting. What's the name drop? This is before the trial now.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

So, yes, I end up meeting Catherine Oxenberg at the time was on Dynasty.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

We started dating me. And I was like, oh, my God, this girl is. You know, my tax bracket was donuts and princess, and she was Danish. Danish. Donuts and Danish. So we. We dated and then we started hanging out. And Nicole had a. Would throw a little get togethers at Gretna Green, not Bundy. And then I was in Hermosa Beach. I said, hey. She was taking a liking to me with the kids. Liking. Like this guy's.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah, like, you were good for Wisconsin. Got along nicely.

[Cato Kaelin]

And then she said. I said, who lives in your guest house? Can I rent it? And then I rented it. And that was it. That's the story. And then her and Grant broke up.

[Elisa Donovan]

What a. What a faded.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. He's a great guy and she's a wonderful woman.

[Elisa Donovan]

Did you think in any. So, I mean, I have so many questions and I really appreciate. I can't imagine how much you have had to speak about this. So I really appreciate it. And I also.

[Cato Kaelin]

No, you have an interest and it's something. It's sort of cathartic, but it's also. It's questions that you have. And I. I have no problem with people with the stuff, because you're right. I've done so much. But it's so good that I can put a voice to things and make

[Elisa Donovan]

it more human and have. The thing about this kind of platform, too, that I really love is that you get to have, like, longer conversations where you don't just have to give a sound bite.

[Cato Kaelin]

That's exactly what I was gonna say.

[Elisa Donovan]

And then like, move on, you know, so it's a nice. So to that end, so many. And a couple of our producers are like, we need to understand this. I'm like, okay, the night of the murders, you went to McDonald's with OJ what I need to understand was this. Before the murders, after, like, what was the context and what was he like? Was he acting strange?

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, I'll answer all that. So back in the day, I used to run. I did a few marathons and I played basketball. So I would go. I was working out, and it was June. It was, you know, hot. It stays light longer. So I was worn out. I came back, I said I was always kind of this person, like, should I use the prop? You know, the Jacuzzi.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Cato Kaelin]

I used the Jacuzzi. And then later. And I'm always aware that I would, if I do something, I make it, I make sure I would turn off or whatever. But he came to my door.

[Elisa Donovan]

A good house.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. A very good house guest. And he, he never really came to my door. Never. So he came to my door and asked him if I could break a hundred dollar bill. And I, I couldn't. But I said, I have 40. I, I can give you this 40 that I have. And he said, oh, okay. And, and it was, he was just like, even back then, I was going, strangely came to my door, but I wasn't, I didn't.

[Elisa Donovan]

He was thinking you for a change.

[Cato Kaelin]

For 100. Yeah. So that's.

[Elisa Donovan]

But for what?

[Cato Kaelin]

Well, then he's, he said he's going to eat. And I didn't know McDonald's now I thought, oh my God, I'm starving. So I said, can I go? Can I eat with you? And he did this, I've said before, he does this pause. And I knew right when he's pausing that I overstayed my welcome sort of thing, like, you're not invited. And it was really uncomfortable. And it was like a 5 second. And he just went, yeah, sure. And then it made me feel like the whole time I'm driving there now, I have no idea where we're going. I don't eat McDonald's. And if I did, I just, I didn't did the meat thing, but not that foamy.

[Elisa Donovan]

So you're regretting your decision immediately. I know that.

[Cato Kaelin]

So I'm being quiet in the car. He's driving and it ends up that he goes to the McDonald's drive through in Santa Monica. And then I didn't know the McDonald's were. But the detectives, when they were questioning me, it was funny. They go, why do you go to that McDonald's and not the one right on Wilshire? I go, I had no idea. I don't know.

[Elisa Donovan]

I didn't know there were so many McDonald's.

[Cato Kaelin]

I didn't know. I had no idea. And that was, you know, that's the whole McDonald's drive. And so he got that. I got a chicken sandwich and he took this, I think he got two quarters. But he ate the first one in like in two bites. And I. Then you see my testimony. I said I'd wait for the entree at home. And I go, we Park. He goes in the car in the driveway. And I get out of the driveway and walk towards his house, not my guest house. And I go. And I open like the screen door before you open the main door. But I looked and he was still at the door of his car. It's about a 20, 25 yards away. And I was like, okay, I'll see ya. I'll eat my room.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Cato Kaelin]

That was it.

[Elisa Donovan]

So did you. I mean, this is like. This becomes. Do you feel like you were disrupting his alibi? Like you were giving him an alibi? Essentially, yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

I have nightmares. And I actually told, Asked, told Kim Goldman on a show many years ago. I said, I feel like I ruined his timeline. And she goes, you can't think that way. And so whatever it was. So it kind of affects me even today. But I went back to the room and ate, and I make a phone call to my buddy. I'm from Wisconsin, a very close relationship, all my friends still to this day. And his name's Tom, and he was a DA in San Diego. And I was like, hey, I guess that dinner would. Okay, you know, doing that, you know, acting cocky, but in a funny way. And then the rest is sort of.

[Elisa Donovan]

What is that when you heard the.

[Cato Kaelin]

Now it's after. So I'm talking the phone and I'm on. I call this girl up. It's different times. And then I heard the picture. It's a wall just like this on your set, and there's a picture. And the picture went kind of like this. And I heard the. This noise. I thought, oh, my. The picture moved. I thought maybe we had an earthquake. I said, hey, I think we had an earthquake. And she said, no, I don't think so. I said, oh, my picture moved.

[Elisa Donovan]

And this is relevant because that timing means that he was there. Right?

[Cato Kaelin]

Is that what that they're saying? That prob. Now it's a wall. It's like sort of that. This much space in between the two houses. Like a little sideway full of cobwebs. No one goes back there.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

And that's where Detectives Hindsight thought maybe he hit his head and dropped the glove. Had the glove. And they could. Because they had an air conditioning unit. And they think maybe that's what happened. We'll never know. But it would make sense of.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my gosh. But you, of course, have no idea of this at the time?

[Cato Kaelin]

No, nothing. Nothing until that morning. And I was, you know, that it was a June gloom. It was one of those. Those nights where everything just felt Off. You can't explain. You don't think murder or anything, but you feel like, what a strange night. And at like 2:30am I heard like these footsteps going by. And on heels, I thought, okay, that's Arnel's daughter. She was in the bungalow next to mine. I go, oh, she's just getting in or whatever, but I heard everything. And the girl I'm talking to, I say, why don't you come by here? And she goes, no, come to my place. And we're going, oh, no, I'm going to try to get some work, you know, typewriter do a resume. And even then I'm thinking this window that I have with the gloom, you know, you think you hear things. And I was. It was just. I can't explain it.

[Elisa Donovan]

Isn't that funny how it's like there is. You're like, something's not something. Is I.

[Cato Kaelin]

100%.

[Elisa Donovan]

Why am I so conscious of everything that's happening right now or something?

[Cato Kaelin]

100%. It was. It was if June gloom times a thousand that night.

[Elisa Donovan]

Did you. Well, first of all, were you ever afraid of O.J.

[Cato Kaelin]

no, never was there. I was never afraid of O.J. because first of all, he was working, I think Notre Dame games. He was gone a lot. So I was there for six and a half months and I would stay with her for six and a half months. So I lived in both. And I thought I had this great room with a view on both sides of how people live. And that's why they thought I was a valuable witness. I saw how they lived, sure. But he was this charismatic man that. He loved being adulated, but he loved people recognizing me, doing an article. He lived for that. And then you saw the sort of, the downfall when the trial was going on and the more evidence came out, it was. He was just a lost soul. But no, he never. I didn't. It didn't hang out with him because I had my own friends. I did see him at the house a few times.

[Elisa Donovan]

Did you ever see him, like, yelling at Nicole is here. Did you. Did you miss any of that? Sort of.

[Cato Kaelin]

The only thing is there's a 911 call, but I wasn't there for it. I came after the fact with the police and he. At the Gretna Greenhouse.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

And he ripped the door, the French doors. And then Nicole was telling, we help. I hammered it shut after the fact that he had gone.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

So I think my voice. She's talking to the police and she's, no, it's okay. That's Cato. I'm on that now. So. And then she said, he's crazy. And. And I just, you know, I come from this. My parents passed away, but I come from a family where mom and dad never argued. If they did, they kissed. So I said, why don't you guys ever. You got everything in the world. Beautiful kids. And so I never could in my mind, think, yeah, what. What problems they have. But there's everybody's problems.

[Elisa Donovan]

Big. Yeah, big problems. I also interviewed Keith Zalomich. Do you know Keith?

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, I knew Keith. Keith at the show that I did, too, and very open about it. And he told stories that were, you know, pretty amazing with OJ and yes,

[Elisa Donovan]

that's what I was so shocked and just thinking about that, you know, it was all the things that people forget, you know, And I appreciate when I've heard you speak on this, and you always come back to, these are two people that lost their lives. And, like, we can't ever forget that. You know, there's so much that surrounds all of it. The. The celebrity and the extreme nature of all the things and the lies and the trial and, you know, but it's really these two people, these innocent people.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, it was. It was completely. It never was about them in the trial because the media. The media, all the shows at that time, the current affairs, the hard copies, they went for different stories. And, you know, I wasn't. The media kind of controls anything that they want to make for ratings. And the story was the dream team. The story was they've lost focus of the two young people losing their lives. And, you know, and Nicole was this really incredible mom. And every morning. Every morning she'd take the kids to school and go running with Chris Jenner and two or three of her other friends every morning. So.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

That was it. And I, you know, I grew up in that guest house in Gretna Green where all the Kardashian sisters are small girls, and they were, you know, jumping on my bed. So, you know, with. With Justin and Sydney always waking up. Cato. And then they named the dog Cato. And I thought that was an act of the Cato. The Akita was named because the kids wanted to be Cato.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

And I'm not saying that cocky or anything humble, but I thought I was like, oh, my God, that's so wonderful.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

So it was really endearing. And I think the biggest thing is living in Brentwood is when you can find someone you can trust with your kids, then. Then it's sort of a grand Slam for them because, you know, if I wasn't the babysitter, I was labeled babysitter pool boy. I was never that. But if ever they needed help and I was available, I always was there to help.

[Elisa Donovan]

Do you ever. Do you keep in touch with them at all? Do you ever see them or talk to them?

[Cato Kaelin]

Nothing. No one at all? You know, that's like. I always think that's like a dark. I'm all about light but not by choice or anything. We just. It just touch was lost and I don't know what is going on in their lives, but I. They're wonderful. The best, you know, for them.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah, it's hard to.

[Cato Kaelin]

And the Brown family and Kim golden and Fred, they're. There are such good people.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right,

[Cato Kaelin]

Right.

[Elisa Donovan]

At what point did you realize that you, you might actually become a part of the case? Like, and not just. Did you know immediately that this was like how did. Also how did you find out?

[Cato Kaelin]

Well, I was, that they were. That was the morning that all the detectives came to my door. It was like 5:05am There's a knock at my door and, and I just saw. I just opened the door and didn't even ask who they were. It was kind of dream state. I said, hey. And then they walked in and said we're LAPD detectives. And they just immediately did their business and they took flashlight check if I had drugs or anything and asked what I wore last night and checked my shoes. So the whole time, honestly I was going, oh my God, did his plane crash? Because I knew he went to Chicago. Is there a plane crash? Oh, wow. And then they. Two of them stayed in my room Vanetter and I believe Furman and they just said. Asked me about my entire night. And then I said, you know, I thought there was an earthquake. I heard this noise. And then they went back there and found the glove. And then they took me and Arnel into the main house on the couch. And I'm sitting on the couch and Arnel's sort of where you are. And we hear Detective Lang, Tom Lang, he's on the phone and he said your daughter has been killed. As they. He wanted to tell the before the media found out to let them know. The Simpsons the Brown Family oh, oh, right. Nicole. So that's how I heard it. That's didn't know anything until that overhearing that conversation. And then I knew immediately that this is going to be gigantic, obviously. And the whole time I was thinking, oh my God, OJ's in. Does he know? He's in Chicago, you don't associate that until they walk me out. And this is after talking to me all morning and took me to the police station. So they walked me out. I'll never forget this. He had this wooden floor, so those little pegs that are like dark pegs and a wooden floor. Really, really nice. And they said, oh, when they're walking, be careful. Watch out for the blood. And then I looked down and I saw all these blood drops. And then I was like, oh my God. And that was the blood they found in the house.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh my God.

[Cato Kaelin]

And I think in hindsight, because I'm so addicted to true crime. And I mean, how a detective would do a question like that to see if you're aware of stepping over, but you look like, oh my God. And then, you know, it's like, oh my God.

[Elisa Donovan]

They're like, okay, he doesn't know that. Right?

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. I mean, they're smart people, but oh my God. That was when things were. And then I went to the police station, Santa Monica, and I was there, I think like eight hours and just sat in a room and they questioned. They just. They weren't. It was more an interview.

[Elisa Donovan]

They were thinking that you were a

[Cato Kaelin]

suspect at the time, not when they kind of got. After the first hour. I think they. And they checked me out. They were like.

[Elisa Donovan]

They assumed that you weren't guys.

[Cato Kaelin]

Okay. And then I. Like I said I was in there forever. And they. It was an. There's a difference to an interrogation interview. My interview, they go over everything. And the saddest part was my late mom. I had no phone calls to make. And I remember I've got a fine in my house. It's the half hour tape of her bawling because it's calling over and over going because no one knew who died. And they all know I'm related. And they just said a guy my ate that whole thing.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh my gosh. She worried it was you, of course.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. The whole family kept calling and bawling, please call. So that was like a 24 hour period.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh God.

[Cato Kaelin]

And that. That was such a powerful part of my life also to hear mom's voice, to do that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh my God.

[Cato Kaelin]

As a mom.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

So then I get released and I mean, they said you can go and all that. And to this day, venetter's passed away. I became great friends with Tom Lang and the detective and most of the people in the trial. And like I said, I'm not tooting my own horn. And by the way, I don't this experience, the. The. What has happened in my life of even why I'm talking to you today. And I just think of years ago, a private investigator Simpson hired. I didn't know this back when I was living at Gretna Green and all that, and then during the trial, hired him and said, hey, I'm so. And so this private eye said, I want you to know that I've been following you and searching and interviewing people about you. I could not find one bad thing. So I just want you to know that. I was like, oh, my God, that's

[Elisa Donovan]

really nice to hear.

[Cato Kaelin]

I said, look. Look harder. No, I did. I was like, oh, wow. I said, I didn't even know that he had a private eye after me.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Cato Kaelin]

Because I think O.J. was thinking I got to hire someone to see who's who. My. Because the kids and I were.

[Elisa Donovan]

Of course he wanted to.

[Cato Kaelin]

And then he wanted to know if I had any relationship with her, which I never did, of course, and all the magazines that I had.

[Elisa Donovan]

How did your relationship with him change before and after?

[Cato Kaelin]

Oh, I didn't see. I moved out immediately. You did? Only time I saw him was at a deposition for the civil trial. But I was dating a woman and golfing with all people. Norm MacDonald, back in the day at Brookside Pasadena. So Norm and I are golfing, and the girl I'm dating is with Norm's friend in the clubhouse. Nate comes out, she takes the cart and goes to see where we're golfing, and she goes, won't believe it's here. OJ's in the clubhouse, and. And then her friend is going. They're. She was hitting on the girl I was dating. He didn't know. And he's all. All over trying to, you know, make a move on her, which is mo. Because another girl I had that came by one time, he's all over. I was like, oh, my God, oj, please.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, oh, my God. So you didn't.

[Cato Kaelin]

True story.

[Elisa Donovan]

So you didn't see him after. After there? Do you remember in the. At the trial when you were on. When you were on the stand, do you. Do you remember locking eyes with him?

[Cato Kaelin]

Oh, yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Like, how. Tell me about that.

[Cato Kaelin]

Well, they. The first thing they say. Can you. You know, the prosecution says, do you see the defendant here? And then you have to point and go, yeah. So I. I think I was six and a half days of testifying, and I. Probably by day four or something, I was. In my head, I'm going, oj, if you did this Just. I didn't. In my head, I'm going, just say you're. Because there's so much pain that's going on in the. With the families.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

And as the more and more evidence was coming out that I thought. I think, you know, I can't prove it. And I think I knew the jury loved him. They'd wave every day to him when I was there.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Cato Kaelin]

Wave. But so, you know, what you thought?

[Elisa Donovan]

Did you think he was guilty?

[Cato Kaelin]

I think it was pointing towards the guilt. Yeah. In the beginning. No. When they interviewed, I thought, there's no way. And then I. I was a question. I didn't listen to the trial during other people's testimony, when I was allowed to, I did. When they had Barry Scheck with the DNA, I just thought, oh, my God, the slam dunk. And then it just. It sort of shamed because people were like the, you know, were so in on the freeway. Juice, juice, juice. And you just saw the whole thing with more evidence coming out with the trial, it was like, it's.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah. I remember that feeling, as a spectator of all of this, that there was a point when everything turned and it went, oh, he is unequivocally going to be found guilty.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

And then it turned again.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. And, you know, there's. There's certain things that happened on a trial with the shots of Robert Kardashian looking surprised when the verdict comes out.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

And the pain that you could see on Kim and Fred Goldman's face and the browns. It was, you know, it's. It's sort of. It's this moment, the 100 year of the. It'll be talked about and compared. It's the template for any trial that happens.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

Now. And I, you know, anytime there's like a major trial, I do get calls from. To get to say, you know, what's going on.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

And so I. I got it. I really. At least I hated it because I was going, God, I don't want to be associated until I said, I'm not going to fight. I'm just going to embrace true crime. And that's why I started doing these shows and I started getting into the true crime. And now it's like the number one genre. And I think. I really think I have a voice to talk about it. And of course, all the stuff I'm shooting has been like, oh, my God, people are going. They're loving it.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

So.

[Elisa Donovan]

And I mean, there is really something to be said. Again, I say this every time I just said it. Yesterday in an interview that I feel like so many things that we cover on this podcast are obviously about horrific things that happen and that everybody is sort of faced with this issue. When something happens, do you. Do you lean into your life and sort of use that as a means to move forward, or do you, like, crumble and cease to exist? And I'm just always really impressed when people say this is the fabric of my life. This is what has happened. So I need to acknowledge it and live with it and give it some meaning.

[Cato Kaelin]

Oh, yeah. I think everybody's got a blueprint of their life. And the week two weeks before the murders happened, I had an agent and all that. I was going on really great readings. And I just read for a film the week before the murders happened. And then I got called back and they put me on film. And I'll never forget that it was for Dumb and Dumber. And I was reading the Harry Lloyd part because I had the long hair. But my buddy Aaron Myerson produced the film. And I was great friends at Aaron. And he was at New Line, one of the executives there. And he said, you've got. And I hung out with the guy before, like we're buddies. He said, you've got to read the script. You're. You're perfect for. So he got me in. And then after that I was a caricature. And not that I would even got the part right, but other stuff it was. But I was getting the huge impact on. And I started getting great readings. And then Kata was a caricature and I was called in for things. Just I could know when I cast. And they just wanted to meet me.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

Was nothing. You know, I was playing Cato, so. But that was like I said, there's a blueprint. And now I kind of see 31 years later that it's. Oh, that is happening. Okay.

[Elisa Donovan]

I guess this is what I'm gonna do now. Yeah. I. I mean, I really well.

[Cato Kaelin]

And getting parts now. Like I did two films just booked. And I'm like, okay. I think people can over. They cannot see me as Cato because I'm not playing Cato in them. And it took forever.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Cato Kaelin]

And I'm. You know what so funny. I'm sure it's with you when you're doing your films from Night to Roxbury, you are the same things around you change. I don't think I change. I think the things around you and people change because they have the image I am. I love people.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. It's really interesting that people. Yeah. People still want to talk to me about Clueless.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

And I at the Rock's, you know, like, no matter sort of what you do in life, like, when you make an imprint in some way, people are always going to want to talk about it, and you either have to say okay, or you're going to be sort of, you know, leading an unhappy life where you're constantly trying to push something away.

[Cato Kaelin]

That's our other connection. So from Buns on Beverly, I went to the boulevard where Alicia Silverstone would always work out, and then our connection is Paul Rudd in the refrigerator scene, and she says she's drinking out of the orange juice carton and she goes, stop it, Cato.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, that's right, I forgot. Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

And that was that. It was the iconic night 90s thing. Like, he's staying there.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

And that's another connection we have.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my gosh. I totally forgot about that.

[Cato Kaelin]

Isn't that funny?

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep. Yep. I mean, that's. We definitely were. Yeah, we. We are connected, that's for sure.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. So it's.

[Elisa Donovan]

What did your. What did your family think about when they were watching all this unfold? They were still in Wisconsin. Were they just like, what are you doing in that crazy place?

[Cato Kaelin]

You know, I've got a really, really. I talked to my family probably every other day and very. You know, we're raised pretty strict Catholic, and so we had that. We had the connection of just always talking and. Because in la, everybody would come up to me and go, hey, you really need a psychologist or a psychiatrist to see you must be going through stuff. I said, no, I. I've got. My family, got. My best friends are still from. With all my best friends from high school and college are very tight.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Cato Kaelin]

They keep you humble and they also. They're the best advice.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Cato Kaelin]

And unthankful. Because in hindsight, you kind of look at that in your life, you go, God, I still have my same friends. I don't know. A lot of people can say that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

That you.

[Elisa Donovan]

It really means.

[Cato Kaelin]

It's everything. I mean, to this day, it's over 44 years of the same friends.

[Elisa Donovan]

That's amazing. All right, let's talk a little bit about the Ryan Murphy series, the People v. O.J. which I thought was so compelling and spectacular. But I want to know, did you. Did you feel like that it was true to life or it was too dramatic? Like, what was. What did they get right and what do they get wrong?

[Cato Kaelin]

It wasn't true to life. No. It was lots of embellishment because I go, if you go back and you can go. This. I wrote. They gave me the screen of the New York Daily News, said, will you write an article on the first screener? So they gave me the screener when it was coming out. And I thought, oh, God, it's a chance to kind of show people that they, you know, kind of Cato can. Can write something very Serbian. So I wrote that and they loved it. And then they asked. They gave me all 10 screeners. I wrote 10 articles. And then the second one got in the USA Today. Oh, wow, you did. I said in third episode, they were putting me in stuff. I said, now it's too much Cato, even for Cato. Because they were putting. They were putting me in scenes that I was never part of. And there was no. The day after all the families that came to visit, they. Then a SWAT team members that came by. I was there and the SWAT came by. So I wasn't there at. I wasn't. The people, they. The Kardashians, they did a lot of stuff with Kardashians, but the girl Kardashians, they did it because at that time the Empire had begun really taking off. And so Ryan Murphy, kind of genius, kept putting them in. And that was a huge draw of the series.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right?

[Cato Kaelin]

That was what. It was compelling. I watched it and it's huge. Ray. I think it got 17 Emmy or at least eight Emmys.

[Elisa Donovan]

I thought it was some of the performances.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Just.

[Cato Kaelin]

And Billy Magnuson never wanted to meet with. I thought it's kind of weird that I would, no matter what, would want to meet the person, even if you don't want to, who played you.

[Elisa Donovan]

He didn't want to meet.

[Cato Kaelin]

You didn't want to meet. And then I saw him on an interview. He said he didn't want to meet, but he said all these great things. The people around me that met me and he said it would take away from performance, but I heard nothing but like, he said about these good things. And I'm like, once again, I feel like. But it makes me feel so wonderful. And I said, okay, I like this guy.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. So he made it.

[Elisa Donovan]

He had a good reason.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. I think he was stuck with that. He's going to do Spicoli from Fast Times as my character, no matter what.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

So.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. What about Nicole? Did you think that they portrayed her? She's hardly. I feel like she's not even a part of that.

[Cato Kaelin]

It's both that.

[Elisa Donovan]

I don't know if that was devastating. I would imagine, which is wonderful.

[Cato Kaelin]

But if he did that to show that. That it never really became about the people, I don't know if you thought that. So maybe you thought, like, I mean,

[Elisa Donovan]

obviously she's not alive during the trial, so they can't really put it. But it did feel like I wanted to hear more about her. And, you know.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah. And I think that one is a tough one because it was more entertainment. And then you had the documentaries that are sort of true to the facts that kind of happen.

[Elisa Donovan]

Where were you during the Bronco chase? What were you doing? Were you watching, like, all of us?

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, I was. I was actually watching the Bronco chase at friend's house, and all my friends are watching it. We were watching the Knicks Houston game, too, and it was interrupted.

[Elisa Donovan]

So I could not understand that. As a New Yorker, I could not understand it.

[Cato Kaelin]

Exactly. And then I was kind of saying, the people I was with, I was like, okay, that's A.C. people didn't know. He's driving. Oh, it's A.C. cowling's driving. There's. I. Then they said he had a gun. I said, there's no possible way this guy's going to shoot himself because he loves himself. And I think you thought that.

[Elisa Donovan]

You were like, right, this is a.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah, this is that part. And then I saw when the Bronco pulled up, how Jason went out there in the SWAT team, kind of pulled him away. And I was saying, they were going, who's that? I said, well, that's the son, Jason. And you know that. So. And then they, you know, the Ryan Murphy thing made it really big with the SWAT team members, all with the snipers pointing.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

But there were. There were SWAT there, but. And, you know, that was just from my watching it. But you look at this, you go, there's no way this really happened. And it really happened. People cheering on the freeway. It's, like, unbelievable.

[Elisa Donovan]

This was kind of the beginning of not only, like, the courtroom involvement, you know, people becoming obsessed. And I feel like it was one of the first trials when they allowed cameras in, which was probably a gigantic mistake, but it really just inflated all of that in this, which allowed the public, who, arguably most people that were standing on those overpasses with their signs did not know O.J. simpson personally. So it was like this way of the entire nation being involved.

[Cato Kaelin]

People kept watching and wanted to be part of it. They'd go down to Brentwood, they'd go down to the freeway. They knew exactly, because, oh, yeah, it was being broadcast, the chase. So they knew where they could See it?

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Cato Kaelin]

And it was. It was. It's honestly crazy. And. And if you think about it, that, like you said, it did start. It started. Core TV started. The shows on. On CNN with the Burden approved, like six other shows and three networks started from a trial, because that was. That way it was going to be. Trials are huge news. People love. Like, I was part of that is

[Elisa Donovan]

that people are so fascinated.

[Cato Kaelin]

I think it's because they look at that and they go, my life's not that bad. And they relate to it. I think it's kind of the Homer Simpson. The whole different Simpson. So it's kind of that Homer Simpson thing where, you know, everybody watches Homer and go. They relate because Homer's got the worst life ever. And they kind of relate. They watch and go, my life's not that bad.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

And they want to see other people. I think people like to see other people in pain and to save their life is better. Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

So you were with Barbara Walters, which. This was new to me. I just learned this, not romantically, although there was this. But when the verdict was read. Yeah, tell me about that. What was that like? And why were you there?

[Cato Kaelin]

And we were actually in Century City. The. We were sitting in these chairs, like in an auditorium. The. I think it was like the Die Hard of the Nomakami. The Plaza. Nakatomi Plaza next to it. So people can kind of relate in their head where it is. So we're in the Century City, and we're gonna do an interview after. But while the verdict's going on, we. I decided I don't want to be interviewed live. Did she want to do a live thing? I said, no, it's not do live.

[Elisa Donovan]

That would be.

[Cato Kaelin]

And then she asked me, without the cameras on, what I thought, and I said, I think they made a huge mistake. I whispered. And she said, I do, too. So that was it. But I. I know, you know, the jury said they went over the evidence in that, but the jury, they really liked him a lot. And I think at the time of LA with the Rodney King and everything was, you know, wasn't supposed to be done in Santa Monica. It was done downtown. So I think all the elements sort of added up. It was going to be, you know, the big thing people were saying. It's like, you could have videotaped it. OJ Would have got off. I mean, that's what people were saying at that time, because it was. Yeah, it was a.

[Elisa Donovan]

It really does. I talked about this with Keith, too. How unfortunate. It's like for Lack of a better word. It was the timing of that, because they exploited a very real horrible thing that had happened with Rodney King and the racial tensions in the city and the. The racist cops. Like, all those things were very real. And they. I feel like they exploited that for this trial and made it about that.

[Cato Kaelin]

Once again. It was how you can form stuff for media, how the news, the clips, and how people can go, you know what? OJ's gonna be innocent.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Cato Kaelin]

And you know what's even worse is how they divided when the verdict came out. How they divided black and white.

[Elisa Donovan]

I know.

[Cato Kaelin]

And it just put LA 15, 15, 20 years behind again.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Cato Kaelin]

Because it just divided everything.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes, yes.

[Cato Kaelin]

And it was. And we're still. It's because of.

[Elisa Donovan]

Still a big mess. Yeah, it is. How did. So did you. Did you never talk to OJ again?

[Cato Kaelin]

Just the deposition. That was just deposition in the bathroom.

[Elisa Donovan]

And he. Were you afraid of him after he was let off?

[Cato Kaelin]

I guess a little bit. I just kept thinking, you know, the. When it actually ended, I was fearful that something could happen. I didn't know where people stood. Some people loved me, then some people hated me. I mean, there's incidents of being spit on. There's incidents of putting Tootsie Suckers in my Tootsie Pops in my head and my hair. It's from behind. No, I mean, weird things happen.

[Elisa Donovan]

Because people thought it was your fault that he was let off or that they were mad that you were.

[Cato Kaelin]

People thought that I didn't come say everything, that I come through it all the truth. And I. I wasn't there. I didn't know. I thought I answered everything. I met with Marsha Clark many times, and So I was 100% honest. But people, you know, you. You kind of looked at it as a soap opera. And people thought I was a character and I wasn't Cato. So it was. I. I get it. Whether mad, but they don't know that I was 100% honest. And that's it. So a lot of times people would say, well, why did you look like a deer, you know, in the headlights? It's because I had so many reviews with her, and I don't remember that question. When you say a question, you think in your head. And so I'm looking. I forget the cameras are there, and I'm thinking in my head like that, what question is this? So I get. I get, okay, the camera's on me. That's why I'm thinking. It makes me look like.

[Elisa Donovan]

And she. They referred to you as a hostile witness.

[Cato Kaelin]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

That's so cute. Why? Like, what was that about?

[Cato Kaelin]

Supposedly, from finding out from other lawyers, it's that she could question me in a different way, but from all the attorneys I met that. That are very smart, smart attorneys. I said the worst thing she could have done. I was her witness.

[Elisa Donovan]

This has been such a wild conversation, and honestly, we are just getting into it. So we are going to pick this right back up in our next episode.

[Cato Kaelin]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.