Killer Thriller: A Brutal Murder, a Web of Lies and the Wrong Man Sent to Prison

Summary

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Killer Thriller: A Brutal Murder, a Web of Lies and the Wrong Man Sent to Prison

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: Elisa Donovan
Episode Date: April 30, 2026
Featured Guest: Glenn Fleschler (actor portraying Russ Faria in "The Thing About Pam")

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Overview

This episode of Killer Thriller centers on the infamous real-life Pam Hupp case, which inspired the series The Thing About Pam starring Renée Zellweger. Host Elisa Donovan interviews Glenn Fleschler, who portrays Russ Faria—wrongly convicted in the murder of his wife Betsy—in the dramatization. The discussion explores the real case’s twists, the challenges and nuances of playing Russ, and the broader issues of justice, manipulation, and the persistent web of lies spun by Pam Hupp.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Glenn Fleschler’s Introduction to the Case and Casting Experience

• Casting “Fluke”: Glenn admits he knew nothing of the Pam Hupp case prior to his audition, almost skipped auditioning due to time constraints, and felt his self-tape was "terrible" but inexplicably landed the part.
  • “This was one of those times where I think I was doing like multiple jobs… I almost didn't do it… I think I'm gonna have to just, like, do one take and just get it done. …I remember thinking, this is terrible.” — Glenn Fleschler (05:07–05:39)
• Lesson for Actors: Sometimes, instinct and putting oneself in the running matters more than perfection.
  • “Sometimes we're meant for certain parts... your first instinct is the right one.” — Elisa Donovan (06:20–06:40)

2. Quick Recap of the Real-Life Case [06:53–07:53]

• Betsy Faria’s Murder: Betsy’s friend, Pam Hupp, becomes beneficiary of her life insurance; Betsy is murdered five days later.
• Russ Faria’s Ordeal: Despite strong alibi, Russ is arrested and convicted largely due to Pam’s manipulations and prosecutorial bias, spends three years in prison before being exonerated.
• Pam Hupp’s Continued Crimes: Hupp later kills Louis Gumpenberger under suspicious circumstances.

3. Portraying Russ Faria: Research and Emotional Depth [09:01–11:43]

• Preparation: Glenn had extended phone conversations with Russ Faria to absorb his perspective, experiences, and trauma.
  • “We ended up having hours and hours of phone conversations over several days… he was so forthcoming… but I had to go into the worst details of his life.” — Glenn Fleschler (09:43–10:26)
• Russ’s Trust in the System: Russ didn’t ask for a lawyer during his 24h interrogation, out of faith that truth would prevail—a faith that both doomed and later sustained him.
  • “He had such faith in the legal system… he just let them bamboozle him, basically. But then it was that same faith that got him through.” — Glenn Fleschler (11:00–11:31)

4. Reactions to the 911 Call and Emotional Realism [12:20–13:37]

• Authenticity vs. Perception: The real 911 call from Russ was so hysterical it sounded like a performance; playing it straight seemed “unbelievable” but accurately reflected overwhelming shock and trauma.
  • “If you played it really the way that when you listen to it, if you played it straight, like no one would believe it.” — Glenn Fleschler (12:57–12:57)

5. Flawed Investigation and Manipulative Narratives [13:37–20:33]

• Russ’s “Incriminating” Reactions: Russ initially claimed his wife had killed herself—based on her history with cancer and depression. This and his emotional 911 call were twisted against him.
• System Failures: Investigators ignored Russ’s airtight alibi, relying instead on Pam’s testimony and a prosecutorial-narrative fit.
  • “It was sort of a perfect storm… testimony from Pam… a prosecutor who wanted things to go a certain way and her relationship with a judge...” — Glenn Fleschler (19:05–19:20)
  • “Russell had a terrific alibi and they kind of just blew past that.” — Glenn Fleschler (19:54–20:00)

6. Betrayal, Family Rupture, & Lasting Fallout [20:33–24:22]

• Family Torn Apart: Pam’s manipulations led Betsy’s daughters and mother to testify against Russ despite his closeness to them; reconciliation has not occurred as of the show’s conclusion.
  • “As of… when the show aired… they had not reconciled… he simply felt he could not bridge that gap.” — Glenn Fleschler (22:25–22:53)
• New Love Connection: Russ eventually found support and remarried. His new wife, Carol, was nearly another Hupp victim—Pam tried to lure her after Betsy’s case unraveled.

7. Pam Hupp’s Deception & the “Whoa, whoa, whoa…” Deposition [24:22–27:36]

• Constantly Changing Story: Pam’s contradictory explanations about the life insurance, her relationship with Betsy, and the forged “abuse” note.
• Iconic Video Evidence: The infamous deposition where Pam repeatedly says “whoa, whoa, whoa…”—a moment recreated in the series and available online.
  • “She would just make up new testimony… Suddenly she and Betsy had a love relationship… just came out of nowhere…” — Glenn Fleschler (26:06–26:44)

8. Pam’s Further Crimes & Attempts at Fabrication [27:36–28:56]

• Staging Evidence: After Russ’s exoneration, Pam orchestrated Louis Gumpenberger’s murder to frame Russ, going so far as to plant a letter on his body.

9. Alford Plea & Unresolved Justice [36:58–37:53]

• Pam Hupp’s Alford Plea: Hupp pled guilty without admitting guilt, which denied closure for many victims and made the system look “like a little bit of a circus.”
  • “It wasn't satisfying to a lot of people, including Most of Betsy's family.” — Glenn Fleschler (37:25–37:35)

10. Ordinary Evil, Small Town Trust, and Community Trauma [32:49–36:52]

• Pam’s “Ordinary” Persona: Her outward congeniality fooled friends and authorities alike.
• Lesson on Trust: Small town communities can breed dangerous levels of trust, making them susceptible to manipulation.
  • “Nobody saw her coming because Midwest and people don't behave that way or you don't expect them to.” — Glenn Fleschler (35:02–35:27)

11. Glenn on Playing Trusting vs. Menacing Characters [38:29–39:49]

• A Departure: Glenn often plays villains; Russ’s trusting and naive nature was a unique challenge—“the opposite challenge.”
• Lingering Trauma: Russ was later traumatized whenever his name surfaced in subsequent investigations.

12. Russ Faria’s Resilience [40:13–41:11]

• Remarkable Lack of Bitterness: Despite years of injustice, Russ demonstrated forgiveness and faith.
  • “He was not bitter… he really learn from the experience… a real man of faith…” — Glenn Fleschler (40:13–40:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Faith in the System:
  “He had such faith in the legal system and that the truth was going to come out. And so he just let them bamboozle him, basically.”
  — Glenn Fleschler (11:00–11:31)

• On The Bizarre Reality:
  “That was most of it. Yeah. But it was so specific, you know, the details were so specific that it had to be real because who could make this up?”
  — Glenn Fleschler (34:09–34:21)

• On Small Towns:
  “It’s just one of those small towns where people are a lot more trusting.”
  — Glenn Fleschler (35:27)

• On the Impact of the Case:
  “The actual facts, strike me as an innocent person… how those things can be twisted into making it seem like he's guilty.”
  — Elisa Donovan (18:44–19:05)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:24] — Introduction and setup of the Faria/Hupp case
• [05:07–06:20] — Glenn’s casting story
• [06:53–07:53] — Summary of real-life case events
• [09:01–11:43] — Glenn’s research and conversations with Russ Faria
• [13:37–14:23] — Discussing Russ’s reaction, 911 call, and investigation details
• [19:05–20:33] — Analysis of investigative failures and Pam Hupp’s manipulations
• [22:25–24:22] — Family consequences and Russ’s later life
• [26:06–27:36] — The infamous “whoa, whoa, whoa” deposition and Pam’s fabrications
• [32:49–36:52] — Pam’s ordinary façade and small town implications
• [36:58–37:53] — Pam’s Alford plea and its impact on perception of justice
• [38:29–41:11] — Glenn’s reflections on the role and Russ’s resilience

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Tone & Style

The conversation is thoughtful, empathetic, and surprisingly light at moments despite the weighty subject, thanks to the rapport between Elisa and Glenn and their focus on the human elements beneath the crime’s sensational surface. The genuine admiration for Russ’s resilience and the cast’s commitment to telling the story with truth and sensitivity pervades the discussion.

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Final Thoughts

This episode shines a revealing light on a true case full of manipulations, tragic errors, and human endurance. Listeners come away with a fresh appreciation for the dangers inherent in unchecked trust, the vulnerability of the innocent, and the redeeming power of faith and resilience in the face of overwhelming injustice.

Recommended for fans of true crime, character studies, legal drama, and anyone fascinated by how storytelling can shed light on real-world flaws in the justice system.

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Transcript

[Elisa Donovan]

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[Cindy Crawford]

Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan.

[Elisa Donovan]

Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here. And this is Killer Thriller. What if you came home one night to find your spouse brutally murdered and within days you were the one being accused of the crime? Well, that's exactly what happened to Russ Faria, a man who was wrongfully convicted, spent years in prison and was later exonerated for killing his wife. It all unfolds in the Thing About Pam, a series starring Renee Zellweger based on the real life case. And it is full of outrageous twists, shocking events and ever shifting narratives. And the real life case is still playing out in the courts today. We are joined by Glenn Fleschler, who plays the role of Russ Faria. Glenn, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited to talk to you about this show. So first, I loved this series so very much and you're so wonderful in it as is everyone. And you know, it's such a unique kind of tone that sort of leans into the, I think, bizarre and, you know, nature of the whole crime. But before you were cast, did you know anything about it? Did you had you heard about Pam Hupp or the case?

[Glenn Fleschler]

No, I knew not a thing about it. Wow.

[Elisa Donovan]

So you just read the script and went, wow, this isn't is this real?

[Glenn Fleschler]

I don't remember what I read right away. I do remember that I got an audition and you know how sometimes, you know, you want to put your best foot forward and sometimes you just don't have time.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Glenn Fleschler]

This was one of those times where I think I was doing like multiple jobs, right. And this audition came in and I said, well, this is kind of interesting, but I don't really have time to do it. Like, I almost didn't do it. And then I was like, I think I'm gonna have to just, like, do one take and just get it done. I don't know if I had earphones in my ear. There was something weird that I did with the phone call. It was Russ's 911 phone call, and it was a lot of histrionics, and.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I remember thinking, this is terrible. This is terrible. You know what I mean?

[Elisa Donovan]

That you're doing terribly.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Like, I almost don't want to send it.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Like, this is all I had time to do. You know, Sometimes you got to let yourself look and be like, well, this is. This is what I.

[Elisa Donovan]

This is what I got in the running.

[Glenn Fleschler]

But I ended up getting the job. And in fact, over the months that we were working on this, from time to time, the producers would talk about my audition. They'd be like, it was such a great audition. And I would cringe because I just. Oh, my God, it was so terrible. And I knew that I could do a better job once I, you know, really prepare for the role.

[Elisa Donovan]

But, right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Never. I just was. It was just a fluke of fate that I got that job.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my God, that's so funny. There's something like that's, you know, great about that for us to remember. Sometimes we're meant for certain parts, and that's just the way it is. And sort of your. Your ability or innate ability and your first instinct is the right one, and. And it's great, you know, so it's a good lesson.

[Glenn Fleschler]

A lesson, yeah. And also, like, you can't get cast if you don't put yourself in the running. So sometimes I think, like, I have to be right, so I got to get it perfect. And sometimes you're just, you know, what they're looking for. So.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep, yep. I firmly believe that. So, okay, so just for the people that are maybe unfamiliar with the details of the case, we'll just, like, do a quick run through of. Of what they are. In December of 2011, this woman, Pam Hupp, she is a house flipper married woman in Missouri. She becomes the sole beneficiary of her friend Betsy Faria's life insurance policy. Five days later, Betsy is murdered in her home and stabbed multiple times. They arrest the husband, your character, mainly based on kind of the things that Pam tells them about him, about their relationship, etc. So he serves three years in prison, then he is exonerated. Then Pam Hupp kills this other man, Louis Gumpberger, in her home, claiming self defense. She's charged with first degree murder. And it just goes on and on and on. Like the insanity of this person is

[Glenn Fleschler]

her mother turned to.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. And then probably her mother, like, she's really relentless in her kind of pursuit of. But we've just got, like, we talk a lot about a lot of narcissists on this show because oftentimes these sorts of killers are incredibly narcissistic. And, you know, she acts as though it's not her fault that she. I mean, she quite literally makes up lies, but then, you know, always sort of claiming that she's injured and that it's someone else's problem. And I mean, when you realize that this was a real story, what was your. Like, did you. Could you believe it? What did you think?

[Glenn Fleschler]

I mean, there was so much to it. And Pam Hupp herself was such an extreme character. And also so was Russell. And what I was attracted to was the fact that normally I am the guy who commits the murder.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. That's what I was thinking.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Yeah. Guys and heavies and murderers. And so I was like, well, in this case, I didn't do it. So that was attractive.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

But the main part, the main gist of the experience for me was talking to our showrunner, Jenny Klein. I had the good sense to call her and just say, like, I haven't really talked to anyone about this show. I'm supposed to go to New Orleans and shoot it. We had gotten postponed because of a hurricane that happened.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Things got delayed a month and I just sort of felt like I haven't really. I've been doing my own, you know, watching the Dateline stuff, whatever research I could get my hands on at the time. But I thought I should talk to somebody. And luckily I called Jenny. We had this great conversation and she said, you know, I think you should meet Russell Faria, who is the character.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes. So did you tell me so.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Yes. So she put us in touch and we ended up having hours and hours of phone conversations over several days. He was actually on a road trip. It was like driving across country. And so we would have to time it out so that he could be somewhere where he would have servants or, you know, wi fi or something. So we did it in these kind of increments. And then we'd have these, like really long talks for hours. And I was just scribbling away notes. And, you know, I'm not an interviewer, but I was like, I gotta really get focused because I want to get all the good stuff. Luckily, he made it so Easy, because he was so forthcoming with all the, you know, I had to. There was no way around it. I had to go into, like, the worst details of his life.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Death of his wife and the subsequent horror that he went through. And there was no way to not ask him about those things. But he. He really made it so easy and was so forthcoming. And my big. Not reservation, but my, like, the challenge of playing the role was, you know, you look at this from the outset, from the outside, and you think, how can this guy have gone this long? For instance, he didn't ask for a lawyer.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Interrogated him for 24 hours straight.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. That's what I was wondering, too.

[Glenn Fleschler]

And he didn't, you know, he didn't really protest that strongly. He just kind of let it happen to him. And so that, you know, it comes off being like, you know, how could somebody be this kind of naive or. And when I talked to him, I just, you know, it really was a matter of he had such faith. He had such faith in the legal system and that the truth was going to come out. And so he just let them bamboozle him, basically. Right. And. But then it was that same faith that got him through several years in prison, being wrongly imprisoned before he got that appeal and was able to get his name clear. So that was all really fascinating and useful.

[Elisa Donovan]

Did he say anything about. Because I remember thinking he, you know, if he was. He had been out with friends at the friend's house playing games and, you know, like a sort of normal gathering that he had with his friends and, you know, drinking a little or getting a little high, and then that kind of, like, that sort of shock has got to have some impact. And then not sleeping and staying up and. I mean, did he talk at all about that? Like, I think about if I, you know, if I have a little too much wine at a friend's house and come home and come to something like that, like, it must be like you can't even believe your eyes.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I mean, I mean, that was part of the factoring in, of playing it all. Because if you listen to the real 911 call, it does seem, you know, it's what Pam Hump and what the prosecuting attorneys played off of that. It seemed like a performance because it was so hysterical. The 911 operator thought it was a woman at first, and. And that was what I had to do in the audition. So you want it to be true to life, but also as extreme as it is, I mean, if you played it really the way that when you listen to it, if you played it straight, like no one would believe it.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

But of course it's hard for any of us to put ourselves in such a horrifying situation. And he came home to such a grisly, extreme scene. So it was just like that was where we were starting from. That's basically the start of the show and the kind of Right. Offsetting incident.

[Elisa Donovan]

Did he say why I was also struck? Why he said on the call and maybe it was just because, you know, he was befuddled and I don't know what anyone would say but he says that she, his wife killed herself and it seems like. Did he say why? That was the instinct that he. Instead of saying someone killed her.

[Glenn Fleschler]

She had had a cancer diagnos, she had struggled with depression. I don't, I don't remember now but I think there were possibly earlier attempts. So that's where his mind went. There were slashes across her arms, right wrists. But it, I mean that was also part of the confounding nature of the interrogation was that she had been stabbed so many times and it was so extreme, so much blood. And what it turned out was that I think that a lot of the wounds were post mortem so, oh, very staged.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Didn't know. I don't think he could process what he was.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] Disclosures

[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's Audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo yo yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I was like, no.

[Ray Porter]

At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah dude, me too.

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Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Elisa Donovan]

It really is so fascinating to me because it, it reveals how innocent people like that to me just strike all of the actual facts, strike me as an innocent person. Like that's how they would respond. But how those things can be twisted into making it seem like he's guilty. It's just like it's crazy to me.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I was sort of a perfect storm with this, you know, testimony from Pam who was manipulating things behind the scenes, but also a prosecutor who wanted things to go a certain way and her relationship with a judge. Who.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Relationship. There were a lot of things that shouldn't have gone on that went on and you know, lie detector tests and trying to coerce a confession, trying to.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Close the case. You know, we portray it in the show like, oh, the husband did it. Like that's what the cops are saying. Because that's what usually happens. And so it just kind of fell into that narrative. And unfortunately Russ was so trusting that he didn't fight it in such a way that maybe some things would have come to light sooner.

[Elisa Donovan]

Sooner. Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Russell had a terrific alibi and they kind of just blew past that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. That, that was very striking to me that it's. There were four or five people that said, no, he was with us Game Night.

[Glenn Fleschler]

And then he went to an Arby's and there was a receipt timestamped that he had been at this Arby's. We depicted it in the show of me ordering these sandwiches. Hey. In fact we have a group text the actors in our show called Arby's and Game Night. Because Arby's and Game Night as like right. Defense.

[Elisa Donovan]

And so, so they, they also portray, or at least Pam talks about him, Russ as being. Having a temper and that he was, you know, a little dark and brooding and he doesn't. It was that, is that, is that accurate? Did he say that? Was true. And then even the kids a little bit saying, well, the kids don't deny it, I guess sort of a gray area.

[Glenn Fleschler]

So led by the nose to make that testimony, you'd have to ask them. I don't remember if Russ copped to any sort of dark behavior. I mean, I know that he and Betsy had, you know, had an on again, off again situation. They had gone through troubles in their marriage, and Pam definitely tried to play off of that. But apparently, according to the people who knew them, they were in a good place when these events happened. And Russ was very close with his stepdaughters that he raised from the age of roughly 5, I think this one maybe. And. And that was just a terrible rupture in their family. And they were pushed to test testify against him, as was. Betsy's mother loved Russ. And the. Between Pam and the authorities and the prosecutors, they kind of convinced her that he was guilty. And she sends a message at some point through his attorney that she's so sorry.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in their kid, you know, they're. They're kids and they're young and it's. It's all really tragic. I read also that I. That he doesn't speak to. That he still hasn't spoken to the children.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Now as of the conclusion of our show, and I guess around when the show aired, which was my last contact with people from the story, they had not reconciled, he hadn't spoken to them. And I did ask him about that, and that was probably the place where he was the most clammed up. But he simply felt that he could not bridge that gap at that point. I think.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Felt like such a extreme betrayal. But I believe it was very painful for all involved. And our showrunner, Jenny certainly leaned into that part of the story. She really wanted Gideon Adlon, who played daughter and I to have, you know, for that to be a significant part of the story. That rupture.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. Right. And there is a beautiful part in the. In the end with Russ and his current wife. I think they are. They're married. Yes, Carol, that so. And is that part as of the

[Glenn Fleschler]

time of the show? I don't know what happened after that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Glenn Fleschler]

A very coincidental thing that she. She became a witness in the Gumpenberger murder because Pam showed up at her house trying to lure her into. Did lure her into her car pretending to be someone from Dateline and offering her money to go ride with her and as though she was going to pay her tax free for some voiceover work or something to do with Dateline. Using Dateline, which covers the whole.

[Elisa Donovan]

So diabolical.

[Glenn Fleschler]

This woman eventually smelled a rat and saved her life by getting out of this car before the Gumpenberger incident. And then she somehow got introduced to Russ through one of his game night friends. Knew her. Was a neighbor or something. And then they ended up. Yeah. Becoming engaged. Of dating for years after that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh my gosh. Yes. They're saying that they are still together and they were just outside of the courthouse, I guess where Pam is being. They have a new. The. The new trial. The trial for the murder of Betsy. It's very hard to keep track of this woman's crimes. This is. They were spotted together. Was this beautiful scene of. You know, it's. This is, this is the, the thing that's always like there. There's always something, or I should say I always look for something that's beautiful and hopeful and the kind of the humanity part of all of these stories. And that just seems like a nice one that those two, you know, found each other. So this, the. Let's talk a little bit about the. So this. The, the life insurance part of this whole thing. So she. So not just that Pam. So she became the beneficiary of Betsy's life insurance. And then. But the explanation around all of that kept changing and I just. And that the kids. She was supposed to set up a. And an account for the children, which they never received the money. And the fact that all of these things did not become true evidence in the first case is like, I, I can't understand any of that. It just makes no sense.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Right. So they had a separate case that was a civil case that the daughters sued Pam. And that's where there's a lot of video which has become sort of iconic video of Pam acting out in all these different ways.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

In that deposition.

[Elisa Donovan]

And that's the.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yes. Which we recreated in our show. But. And you see at the end of the series, they show the real footage and I'm sure it's everywhere online if you wanted to see that. But yeah. Just for going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And a lot of other things and a lot of like real testiness with the attorneys and, you know, erratic behavior. But she was just used to changing her story at every turn. She would just make up new testimony. Suddenly she and. And Betsy had a love relationship. That was a thing that came later.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. I forgot about that.

[Glenn Fleschler]

We just had a love, you know, this love connection. And that just came out of nowhere down the road. It wasn't in her original testimony. There were a lot of things like that. She just, you know, and she had put typed a letter on Betsy's computer that was supposed to be from Betsy to Pam or to somebody saying like that Russ was abusing her and all right. And they were able to use that against her in the trial. They were able to prove that it wasn't. It wasn't natural to computer that somehow.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. It was like from a. It was like the difference between like a Mac and a. And a, you know, a PC or something like it didn't.

[Glenn Fleschler]

He was trying to make it look like Pam had written all the stuff but then never sent the letter. And she'd done a couple things like that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

And then claimed like why would I, you know, if I was going to do it, you know, my mother has a $500,000 life insurance policy. Like if I needed the money, you know, she kind of gave her and

[Elisa Donovan]

give her some away. And it turns out I do need that money. So now she's.

[Glenn Fleschler]

My mom's gotta go.

[Elisa Donovan]

I. I can't. The whole, the whole letters part of it too. Like that one. And then there's another letter like when she says in the, in the show, she says after killing Rumpenberg, I'm never gonna remember his name. Rumpenberger, right? With a G. Yeah, with a G. Gumbenberger. When she kill. After she kills Gumpenberger and says to the police, you might want to check about. There's a little letter sticking out of his pocket. You know, that was like she clearly wrote saying, you know, theme.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I mean she could have gotten away scot free because I think she, I guess that she had this terrible response to the idea that Russ had gotten out of prison because the case would have been left alone at that point. But then she tried to fabricate this whole story where Russ had hired this man to kill her. Calls 911 so hear them on this 911 call and then she kills them in cold blood. I mean allegedly.

[Elisa Donovan]

Allegedly.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness. It's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to to More Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

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[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating. So some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo yo yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it.

[Glenn Fleschler]

I was like, no.

[Ray Porter]

At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Hearsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Cindy Crawford]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty.

[Elisa Donovan]

When Dr. Saba and I decided to

[Cindy Crawford]

do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist.

[Elisa Donovan]

It's efficacious. You're going to get results.

[Cindy Crawford]

And then you just go out and live your life.

[Elisa Donovan]

Meaningful Beauty confidence is beautiful.

[Cindy Crawford]

Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Elisa Donovan]

Let's talk about the mom for a second. That her death. So her mother was discovered dead after falling from the balcony at her assisted living home. And then they also found an extraordinary amount of Ambien in her system, like 10 times the amount that she should have or something. So do you think that she's responsible?

[Glenn Fleschler]

She was the last person who saw her. And yeah, all the Ambien and then some concocted like faulty railing.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Oh, certainly seemed like it. But that, that was not at the time of our show, that case had not been prosecuted. Maybe it was being investigated still or I'm not sure where the authorities left that case, but.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. I think it's still being investigated right now. It'll probably be up and coming. It's what, what's so disturbing, obviously about her is that she comes across as so ordinary at first and so actually congenial in some regard. And then. But she's obviously deeply ill. Were there moments when you were shooting this where you felt like, I can't believe that this is real?

[Glenn Fleschler]

I mean, that was most of it. Yeah. But it was so specific, you know, the details were so specific that it had to be real because who could make this up? Except that. Except her. You know, that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

About things was so strange. But also, I'm a lifelong New Yorker, so, you know, I. That's why I said about trying to get into Russ's head. I was like, you know, I would be so naturally skeptical of everything that was going on. So the idea of trusting and, you know, of the legal system and everything and everyone and even says like, oh, to his lawyer, oh, yeah, Pam Hump, she's a nice lady. I don't think he really knew her that well or thought that much about it. So it was so out of nowhere for most of these people that I think she was trying to pawn herself off as like a better friend than she actually was.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So that's what I. Yeah, I was

[Glenn Fleschler]

curious about that and somehow convinced her to or however she manipulated that insurance policy. I don't know. I don't remember the details of that, but. But yeah, nobody saw her coming because Midwest and people don't behave that way or you don't expect them to. And I think it's just one of those small towns where people are a lot more trusting.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. It's like a similar. I just spoke with Dr. Ramslin, who's a criminologist and an author and a professor, and she did this over ten year interview with the BTK killer, Dennis Raider. And I mean, that is. Wow. But he is similar in the sense of. Was like very much a member of the community, you know, was involved with everybody to some degree and, you know, just sort of folded himself into the fabric. But did. Did Russ say that they were. Anything about how, how, you know, his relationship with her? Because it did seem like he didn't really even know her that well.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Well, I mean, we had lines in the show where she accuses him of smoking around Betsy even though she had cancer. And he said, like, she's never seen me smoke. He says to one of the lawyers, like they really, you know, it was cordial relationship, but I just don't think he really thought much about her or really knew her. Just thought she was this nice lady that Betsy used to work with. And then suddenly like she insinuated her way into their lives in this way that he wasn't even aware of. But I know that by the end he really wanted to see her put away and he wanted to be there for. He wanted to be involved in this trial once it was reopened and.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, I bet, I bet. Did he have any feelings about the Alford. It's Alford, right?

[Glenn Fleschler]

Is that what Alfor Alford plea? Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes. The plea where you do not admit your guilt but you plead guilty.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Yes. I only learned about that through the show. I'd never heard of that before.

[Elisa Donovan]

I had never heard of that either.

[Glenn Fleschler]

So. So yeah, it's very consistent, her character that even in confessing she would do it in a sort of haughty way.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah. And not admitting that she's guilty.

[Glenn Fleschler]

It's almost like a political move, right? Yeah. I don't think that was satisfying to a lot of people, including Most of Betsy's family.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure.

[Glenn Fleschler]

But you know, it. It wasn't satisfying or to the new regime of politicians that took over at that time.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Because it made a lot of people look bad. It made that whole.

[Elisa Donovan]

It certainly made it look like a little bit of a circus in terms of their whole, you know, their court system and their. In the police department and all of it. So. Yes, the definition is it allows a defendant to plead guilty while maintaining their innocence. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, I. This has been super fascinating. Have you ever played anyone like this? I know you always do play very scary. You're usually the other.

[Glenn Fleschler]

The other side characters from time to time. But this was a great departure and it was almost like the opposite challenge, like I said, because he was so trusting and had so much faith. It was almost the opposite of like what you were talking about, about some of these characters we know from true crime, but also people I've played in fictional crime where they're either hiding in plain sight or, you know, all these ulterior motives. And here was somebody who was like, so banking on the truth to set him free every turn. So trying to trust that and traumatized by the way the system worked. You see him actually get called in. I guess it was after the Gumpen. It's later in the series. I think it's after the Gumpenberger situation because Russ's name was invoked in that scenario.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Concocted. They called him in, he was like, I'm in Florida. And they were like, you have to come back to Missouri.

[Elisa Donovan]

And that was a great scene.

[Glenn Fleschler]

He's traumatized, you know, and his lurk is saying, it's going to be okay. We're going to wait this out. We're not going anywhere. We're just going to wait here and let them clear you. But you know, you could imagine how terrifying. Oh, already gone through that situation where the system completely let you down.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah. Totally failed him. And why would he, you know, he'd assume it could just happen again. Yeah, he does seem, when I've watched a couple of interviews of him post, you know, more. More current. And he does. Jesus seems like such a. Like a kind hearted person, you know, he seems like a very. Somehow has come through this.

[Glenn Fleschler]

You know, he was not bitter.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yes, yes, exactly. That's a great way to say it.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Years after, I mean, obviously the legal proceedings were still happening involving various aspects of this case, but it had been a while since he had done time and all that he'd gotten his life together and had love in his life and all of that, but obviously the family hadn't completely recovered, and there was a lot of pain, but he was not bitter. He really learn from the experience. And, yeah, it was just like a real man of faith. And.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah, that's an admirable response, most certainly.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

All right.

[Glenn Fleschler]

As far as what I could tell, not. I don't want to act like I'm an expert on him because, you know, I was over. Talking over a few days.

[Elisa Donovan]

Sure, sure.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Very generous of him to. To do that and be so. Be so open with me. And I. It was invaluable, of course.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah. Well, I. I've loved talking about this. And you can stream the show. The thing about Pam, it's a really, really, incredibly well done series, and you're terrific in it. Renee Selwer is terrific in it. So everybody, the whole cast is great. What can we see you in next? What are you doing? What doing?

[Cindy Crawford]

Are you.

[Elisa Donovan]

You working on? What do you want to tell us

[Glenn Fleschler]

in the New York area? I'm rehearsing Romeo and Juliet in Central park playing the role of Capulet, Juliet's father.

[Elisa Donovan]

Stop it. Are you doing shakes? You mean you're doing the Shakespeare in the park this summer?

[Glenn Fleschler]

Yeah, the old classic, Shakespeare in the Park.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, I'm a New Yorker, so I'm from New York, so I. This is like. Oh, I'm so excited for you.

[Glenn Fleschler]

The third time it's been done, oddly, even though Shakespeare in the Park's been going on since, like, the late 50s, early 60s, third production. I was kind of shocked to learn that because it seems like a play that's done all the time. But so, yeah, we're a few weeks into rehearsals now, so that's. That's the next big thing.

[Elisa Donovan]

Ah, that is when. What are the dates? When does that run?

[Glenn Fleschler]

It starts in late May, and it runs till June 28, so it's early part of summer.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, I'm gonna be there. And for a couple days, I'm gonna try to get myself in there. It's a very hard. It's hard to get seats for that three.

[Glenn Fleschler]

So that's the great part. But you do have to wait. You have to wait.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. I might have to get my sleeping bag

[Glenn Fleschler]

and wait for tickets and.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. Oh, that's such a wonderful experience. I'm so excited for you. It'll be amazing.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Yeah, I think so.

[Elisa Donovan]

Well, thank you so much for talking with me, Glenn. I hope we get a chance to do it again. Maybe you know you'll play a serial killer next time and we could chat again.

[Glenn Fleschler]

Chance that'll happen at some point. Thanks very much.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein Shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors, from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. It's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein empowers me to say yes to more Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kalpen. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

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[Elisa Donovan]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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