Killer Thriller: A Small-Town Cheerleader Murder That Became the Highest Rated TV Movie of 1994 with Kellie Martin.

Summary

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Killer Thriller: A Small-Town Cheerleader Murder That Became the Highest Rated TV Movie of 1994

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: Elisa Donovan (iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Kellie Martin
Episode Date: February 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Killer Thriller" dives deep into the real-life tragedy that inspired the 1994 TV movie Death of a Cheerleader (also known as A Friend to Die For). The film, starring Tori Spelling and Kellie Martin, was based on the 1984 murder of Kirsten Costas by her classmate Bernadette Protti in a suburb of San Francisco, California. Host Elisa Donovan is joined by actress Kellie Martin, who played the fictionalized version of the killer, to explore the complexities of the case, the making of the film, and its lasting cultural impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Recollections from the Local Community

• Host and Producer's Personal Connection:

  • Elisa’s producer grew up in the same town as the murder occurred and shares vivid memories—her parents knew the family, and she recalls the funeral and neighborhood searches for the “green Pinto” associated with the killer.

    “It was so, like, what. What's the memory of it? ... I can remember my parents going to the funeral. I can remember sitting in my living room...” — Producer/Host (06:31)

  • The producer reflects on the enduring emotional aftermath in the town, expressing discomfort discussing the case because of its lingering pain among those involved.

• Social Dynamics in 1980s High School:

  • That era’s culture, including girl cliques, local "sororities," and public displays like kissing rallies, contributed to feelings of belonging—or exclusion.

    “Those years, like 13 to 18... are so precarious in so many ways and people can be cruel to one another and this just feels like a complete, complete explosion of that...” — Interviewer/Co-host (07:56)

Fact vs. Fiction in the TV Movie Adaptation

• The film changed the names and dramatized certain events; some aspects—like the murder weapon (a vegetable-cutting knife left in the car)—were adapted to fit a narrative of non-premeditation.

  “It was not until recently... that I understood the reason they had to get the knife in was so that it was not premeditated.” — Producer/Host (12:31)

• The host and producer discuss that despite these changes, the feeling of the era and social dynamics was captured, but the portrayal of the victim as a "mean girl" is debated:

  “Tori’s character is quite mean. She's not very nice... But everything that I have read... all of the classmates that were interviewed, ultimately, they were like, no. No one deserves to... No one even remotely was suggesting that this deserved... She deserved this.” — Interviewer/Co-host (16:34)

The Impact of the Murder on the Community

• The event left a long-term scar, and most residents and even those close to the case are ambivalent about discussing it publicly decades later.

  “I don't think you can move on from that. You carry that with you, especially when you're a teenager. My gosh. Right. Printed on your psyche for the rest of your life.” — Kelly Martin (53:01)

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Interview with Kellie Martin (Angela Del Vecchio/Bernadette Protti)

[27:12] Interview Begins

Preparation for the Role

• Limited Research to Preserve Character Authenticity:
  • Martin intentionally avoided delving deeply into the real-life details before filming, choosing to portray the character based on her interpretation of the script.

    “I didn't know much except that it was based on a true story. And what was I, 17 when I did this? I think I didn't want to know much about it. I kind of wanted to just play Angela as... my version of who she is, and I didn't want to be bogged down by anything true.” — Kellie Martin (27:39)

  • She focused on making her character sympathetic and relatable, deliberately avoiding a monstrous depiction.

    “I wanted her to be as sympathetic as possible. I wanted her to be like the opposite of a monster.” — Kellie Martin (28:24)

Identification with the Character

• Feelings of Not Fitting In:

  • Martin, herself a child actor who always felt like an outsider among peers, deeply resonated with Angela’s alienation and sense of shame.

    “I, like, Angela felt very much like a fish out of water. She really didn't fit in with that community... I felt like I had, like, two left feet. I just never felt like I fit in. And I really. I know that Angela felt so much like that.” — Kellie Martin (29:50)

• Highlight on Shame and Pressure:

  • She noted Angela’s pervasive shame—about her family’s background and not measuring up—as a core motivator, both before and after the crime.

Navigating the Filmmaking Process

• On-Set Dynamics with Tori Spelling:

  • Martin avoided socializing with Spelling, describing herself as “prissy” and Tori as having a “party girl” reputation, which turned into an unintentional form of method acting.

    “So we totally stayed away from each other. ... I was the prissiest thing you ever met. ... So it kind of ended up being a little methody, like I'm Daniel Day Lewis or something. So, like, the makeup trailer, like, we didn't talk...” — Kellie Martin (43:53)

• Influence of Co-Stars and Age-Appropriate Perspectives:

  • She acknowledged learning much from Valerie Harper, who played her mother, and using her own teenage insecurities to enrich the character.

Reflections on Empathy and Modern Contexts

• Evolution of Perspective as a Mother:
  • Now a parent, Martin views Angela with even greater empathy and considers how modern resources (like accessible therapy or online communities) might have changed the outcome.

    “I do feel like as a mom, I definitely see Bernadette in a different way now. ... My 19 year old definitely went through some stuff and I had to really, like, adjust my way of thinking...” — Kellie Martin (47:21)

Responsibility & Lasting Impact

• On Carrying the Role and Its Burden:
  • Martin expresses the weight of playing a real person and her hope to do justice, not cause further pain. She notes that despite the film’s continued cult status, the real community remains haunted.

    “Not that I wanted to make her proud. I wanted to do her justice. And knowing I was playing a real person, it weighed heavily on me.” — Kellie Martin (52:52)

Social Context & Bullying Then and Now

• The team discusses how present-day bullying, the amplification of social groups via social media, and the word’s changing connotations could impact teens in similar situations today.

  “That pressure that a person could go through all of that and bring it to the point of taking a classmate's friend's life without the Internet, without social media, ... that terrifies me to think about today...” — Interviewer/Co-host (48:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Sensation and Curiosity Surrounding Tragedy:

  “People want to be close to tragedy, except when they are the ones who are actually experiencing the tragedy. It's like, why instinctually we are rubbernecking at a car accident.” — Interviewer/Co-host (14:14)

• On Social Hierarchies:

  “It's like I'd call it the two popular groups. ... It totally makes me think of Pretty in Pink.” — Producer/Host (10:15)

• On Filmmaking Choices:

  “I wanted her to just be quiet. Just be quiet. Just stop it. Just stop being that way. Stop being mean and just be quiet is kind of how I envisioned it.” — Kellie Martin (32:54)

• On Pressure and Breaking Points:

  “I read that she, that some of the classmates of Bernadette were saying... the thing that really broke her was not making the yearbook staff. And that was just like that was it.” — Interviewer/Co-host (36:13)

• On Empathy & Parenting:

  “My daughters have kept me very accountable for my behavior, and I'm grateful for that, even though it's hard to hear in the moment.” — Kelly Martin (57:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:24] Introduction & Background on the Case
• [05:48] Personal Reminiscence from Producer—Local Impact
• [07:56] Social Hierarchies and Girl Cliques
• [11:09] True Crime Versus Movie Accuracy
• [27:12] Kelly Martin Interview Begins
• [31:18] Shame, Alienation, and Motivations in the Character
• [43:53] On-Set Dynamics with Tori Spelling
• [47:21] Reflections as a Mother and Changing Perspectives
• [52:52] Lasting Impact and Responsibility Portraying Real People
• [55:06] Community Impact and Lasting Impressions
• [56:11] Bullying Today vs. The 1980s
• [59:07] Conclusion and Reflections

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Why the Story Endures

Martin and the hosts agree the film remains a cult favorite due to its quality, pacing, compelling characters, and its representation of the “dark side” of the American high school experience. The murder’s impact—both in its small community and in national popular culture—makes it a story people return to, even as it remains unresolved and painful for those closest to it.

“It's a fascinating crime story with kind of these interesting characters... I think that's why people come back to it.” — Kelly Martin (51:35)

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Summary Takeaways

• The tragic murder of Kirsten Costas and its dramatization continue to fascinate and unsettle, serving as a lens to examine adolescent pressure, social exclusion, and the aftershocks of violence.
• Kellie Martin’s approach to playing Angela Del Vecchio balanced empathy, youthful insecurity, and a desire for authenticity.
• The conversation raises important questions about memory, trauma, the line between fact and dramatization, and how much has—or hasn’t—changed for young people facing similar pressures today.

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Transcript

[Producer/Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Kelly Martin]

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[Kelly Martin]

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Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan.

[Producer/Host]

Hey, everyone.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Elisa Donovan here. Back with a new episode of Killer Thriller. Today, we're going back to one of the most talked about true crime TV movies of the 90s, a film that still sparks conversation decades later. You may know it as Death of a Cheerleader or maybe a Friend to die for. Same story, same tragedy, and it is very real. The film is based on the 1984 murder of Kirsten Costas, a popular high school student in Northern California who was stabbed to death by her classmate Bernadette Praddy in a crime fueled by jealousy, insecurity, and a desperate need to fit in. And today's guest didn't play the victim. She played the girl who killed her. Kelly Martin starred as Angela Del Vecchio, the fictionalized version of Bernadette, a role that required stepping into the mind of a teenage girl unraveling under social pressure and obsession. Okay, so before we get to Kelly, I am going to bring in my producer who is an extraordinary resource surrounding this case because she grew up in the town.

[Producer/Host]

I was 10. I was 10. It happened in 84, right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Producer/Host]

So I was born in 74. And this was. We live in a small town. Like a small town, you know, is all relative. It's not that small, but it's not

[Interviewer/Co-host]

in the middle of.

[Producer/Host]

Right, right.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

It's not San Francisco.

[Producer/Host]

It's not San Francisco. It's like a suburb of San Francisco. And I've talked about this before. It, it weirds me out talking about it. I have to be honest, because I get. I feel bad. I feel weird, I guess is the word. It was 40 years ago. 40 plus years ago. 42 years ago. There's something about this thing that happened that when I talk about it, it makes me feel guilty that I'm hurting the people that lived it. Does that make sense? Wow.

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

Because you feel like it has not healed and it hasn't been anyone.

[Producer/Host]

Friends, family. So just to give you the context, so when I was born, I was born in 74, and until 1980, I lived on Valley Drive. And this happened on Orchard, which if you walked from my house to this, it's probably like a four minute walk.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, my gosh. I didn't realize it was that close. Yeah.

[Producer/Host]

Though it was like on my. On my street, which I think is quite interesting. What I thought of. It wasn't on my street. It was on the street you take Orchard to get to Valley and it happened on Orchard, so. And I can't remember if she babysat us or not. The. The cheerleader. Yeah. Wow. I think she did a couple times, but she wasn't our regular babysitter. So, like, our regular babysitters live down on Valley Drive at the end by the pool. And then we had two other babysitters. But I think possibly she babysat us like once or twice. Right. My parents are definitely friends with her parents. And I. I have such strong memories of it because I think it was so, like, what.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What's the memory of it?

[Producer/Host]

Oh, I can remember my parents going to the funeral. I can remember sitting in my living room. So we had moved to the town over in. In 1980, which is like, I say town over, but, like, the high school for this town is closer to me than the town it's in. Does that make sense? Like, the three towns are basically like one town. And I can remember my dad telling me it was the saddest thing he'd ever been to in his life. And like, I can't remember, like, high school. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, yeah, but you remember this.

[Producer/Host]

I remember so many things. I remember looking for the green Pinto. Like, I totally remember.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And that was the car that people understand. Like, that was the car that was associated with the murderer before they knew anything. Yeah.

[Producer/Host]

People know this story because of the Tori Spelling Kelly Martin, the first movie. It had like two names. To kill a cheerleader and then it

[Interviewer/Co-host]

was something and to die for or.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah. And then there's the re. Then they did it again. And also I can remember listening to like, my favorite murder, the podcast, when they talked about it and me sort of being like, like, whoa. You know what I mean? Like, whoa. And the Rolling Stone article A lot

[Interviewer/Co-host]

of people remember a friend to die for. That's what it was called.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah. I don't know why I keep. Was it originally called to kill a cheerleader or something?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Death of a cheerleader.

[Producer/Host]

Death of a cheerleader. So did you talk about the sororities or did you read about the sororities?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes, I read about the. This is like, it's so disturbing on so many levels, particularly because one, I am a female and two, I have a 13 year old daughter. And those years, like 13 to 18 to 17 are so precarious in so many ways and people can be cruel to one another and this just feels like a complete, complete explosion of that on a level.

[Producer/Host]

No, I think this was like, weird. Like, here's. Here's my thing on it. We were in. I was in one. We. I went to the neighboring high school. So we had a sorority called Daphne. I think theirs was the Bobbies. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Or Bobby's.

[Producer/Host]

There were two in Berkeley. Like, I don't know if they still exist. I mean, we had like. It was just a different time. Right. I. I always say it was a different time. Like, I'll give you an example. When we were in high school, we had. In my high school and this high school are like the rival high schools.

[Kelly Martin]

Right.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So they're.

[Producer/Host]

And we hung out with all the kids from this high school. I'm obviously much younger. But like, we had rallies that were like kissing rallies. Like, it was just a different time. You could literally write a poem. Like, say what? You know, my friend Carrie is really cute. She should kiss David. Toot, toot, toot. And then like, they would be like, David and Carrie come down to the center of the gym in front of the entire school and kiss.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

This is like kiss the bottle in public at school. This is wacko. This is weird.

[Producer/Host]

This is weird. The best. I don't even know how to explain how great it was. It was the best time ever. And like, that was not a good poem. The poems were like, extravagant.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

It was an excellent poem.

[Producer/Host]

He saw her from the football field and, and her lockers by his, you know, something, something wheel.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

It's like. But it feels very like sorority. Like.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah. And the sorority party was really, really fun. I mean, I don't drink, but people did jello shots. And like, it was. It was not mean. It was fun. But I could see how somebody not in it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Producer/Host]

Was her.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And the desire, the real need to be a part of that.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And feeling.

[Producer/Host]

Because those years, like, context, like, it was like, I'd call it the two popular groups. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, not just like these, like it totally makes me think of like Pretty in Pink.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Producer/Host]

Well, right.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's what I mean. All these things are very identifiable to anybody who has been that age or has a child who is that age. You know, like the, the groups and the. The sort of hierarchical nature of things.

[Producer/Host]

But the fact that this and 90s could lead to.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

To actual murder is so.

[Producer/Host]

But I think unfathomable. Maybe it was just, I don't know, like I don't want to. It's like I don't want to blame the whole group for one person. Sure.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, clearly she had some, you know, she was deeply troubled because I don't think you do this if you aren't.

[Producer/Host]

But I don't think I ever watched. So in 94 when the movie came out, I was in college. I knew of the movie because I knew it was about our town. Right. I knew it was Tori. I don't think I ever watched it. Like I have no memory of actually watching it. And so I don't know. And it was so loosely based. Right. Because nobody was going to participate. So I don't know.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah. They changed all the names and did

[Producer/Host]

they do the knife with the vegetables?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes, that was a very big part of it. That it was a knife that was in the car for her sister's work or to cut vegetables.

[Producer/Host]

It was to cut vegetables. So that I remember at the time was so befuddling. So first of all, they didn't. It was. The case went cold for like a long time. That's why we were all out there looking for the Pinto. Looking for the Pinto.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Producer/Host]

Then I remember them it coming out, catching her. She admitting to it or a family member, something. It's all very vague. I mean, I was 10 years old, but I remember this knife with the vegetable cutting and me being like, why was she cutting vegetables in her car? Like, we don't have a knife in our car. It was not until, and I think I told you this when we were talking off air. It was not until recently when I was like researching this that I understood the reason they had to get the knife in was so that it was not premeditated.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Producer/Host]

And I ne, as a kid never understood the nuance there that I was like, why was she cutting cucumbers? Like it was so weird.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Sure. Did you feel like, oh, this could happen to me? I mean, because the mind of a 10 year old. Right. You can imagine all sorts of things.

[Producer/Host]

No, I don't remember being scared. I remember being. So why are my parents so sad? And I'm sure they like shielded us from it, but not really. I mean, we knew what happened. We knew what happened. And I can remember, and I've told Tori this before, like the. I can remember my dad telling me about the song they played. I know what the song is every time I hear the song.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

What is the song?

[Producer/Host]

So again, I get weird. I don't want to say because I get so. Like I'm giving their private thing. So it's like I only feel okay giving saying what my experience was because it's so devastating. And what's weird is like, I also don't think I've ever talked to my parents about it again very much. I've talked to my mom a couple times about it and she.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Is she still friends with her parents?

[Producer/Host]

They moved away. They moved away?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, yeah.

[Producer/Host]

Everybody moved away.

[Kelly Martin]

Right, right.

[Producer/Host]

And I don't know what's interesting. I thought about this though. So in Brentwood, where I also live, my house is very, very close to Nicole Brown Simpsons. And any Same distance, about 5 minute walk. Anytime I walk down Bundy, I'm literally like Nicole Brown Simpsons. Like, I think about it every time. Of course, when I drive on Orchard, I don't think about it and I don't know why. It's not like I'm like, well, there's.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Well, I think this is the thing, you know, this idea. Somebody very smart said this to me once about, you know, people want to be close to tragedy, except when they are the ones who are actually experiencing the tragedy. It's like, why instinctually we are rubbernecking at a car accident.

[Producer/Host]

That's why we're so obsessed with Nancy Guthrie. We cannot get enough information.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes. But yet when you are deeply enmeshed in it, you wish nothing more than to have no association with it.

[Producer/Host]

And so I would call myself somewhere like in the middle there because I'm not deeply enmeshed in it. I can remember it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Producer/Host]

And we were too young. Like, I'd have to ask, like I have a friend who's kind of in the middle of the two ages. So if, you know, they're seven years apart from me and the.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So like 13 or something or. Yeah.

[Producer/Host]

And I think she has a different experience than even I have. But a lot of people still live here, like on that street. One of our friend's moms still lives in that same house. And I think it was like very, very Close to where it happened. And like, I was so young, so, like, I don't remember, you know, yellow tape and investigators and.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. You don't remember that.

[Producer/Host]

I don't remember any of that. I just remember knowing about it, the pinto, the knife and the vegetables. My parents being just traumatized.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Must have been absolutely traumatized. I cannot imagine.

[Producer/Host]

And I can remember she got out. When she got out, and she only

[Interviewer/Co-host]

said, I don't even want to say

[Producer/Host]

the real names, but I can remember that. And, yeah, I mean, it's just. And then when this big, huge movie happens about it, even though it was so, like, in your research, how close is it to the real story?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So a lot of it is very close. But then they leave out, you know, they leave out a host of things. Like. And for example, I don't remember if

[Producer/Host]

they

[Interviewer/Co-host]

what I will say that the movie does that sounds similar but doesn't go deep enough. They, you know, Torey's character is quite mean. She's not very nice.

[Producer/Host]

And I don't think that's true.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And. But everything that I have read about this girl is that she could be very mean. I don't know if that's true. And people, all of the. All of the classmates that were interviewed, ultimately, they were like, no. No one deserves to. No one even remotely was suggesting that this deserved. She deserved this.

[Producer/Host]

I don't know that that's true.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

You don't know? You don't think so?

[Producer/Host]

I don't think so. I. I've never heard that. Just saying it paints a better story for the Tori Kelly Martin movie.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But the Rolling Stone article, they go on and on about a lot of different people just saying she was not nice and she was looking to be, you know, the queen bee and was and all of that.

[Producer/Host]

I don't know, but I don't. I don't. That's not how it resonates to me just at all. Do they do the thing where, like, she. And again, it's, like, so weird to me that I have. I don't think I've seen it because I'm pretty good about, like, remembering TV shows that I've seen. Because, like, you could ask me about an episode of, like, Facts of Life and I'd be like, I know that one. You know, like, do they do. Where she gets out of the car, the neighbor or sort of like the. The random nice dad drives her back home, she goes to her house, they

[Interviewer/Co-host]

do all of that.

[Producer/Host]

So she goes to the neighbor. So it's pretty.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yep, they do all of that, all of it.

[Producer/Host]

It's somewhat, it's, it's the story. Like they just definitely kept a lot of it in there.

[Bowen Yang]

Foreign.

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For the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures hi, I'm

[Kelly Martin]

Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

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[Kelly Martin]

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

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[Kelly Martin]

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[Bowen Yang]

this is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resource with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting afterlife. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R premium protein.com

[Kelly Martin]

hey, this is US Olympic gold medalist

[Bowen Yang]

Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic

[Kelly Martin]

gold medalist Hunter Woodhull. As Athletes. Our lives are about having a clear

[Interviewer/Co-host]

path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Kelly Martin]

So when it came to getting the

[Interviewer/Co-host]

best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Kelly Martin]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA.

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

What's the most kind of unbelievable to me is the amount. The amount of time that passed that she was able to live with this.

[Producer/Host]

I mean, I think now there'd be.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I don't understand how you do that.

[Producer/Host]

Do you know what I mean? It's like, if this was now, there'd be DNA everywhere.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Producer/Host]

Does she leave the knife or does she take the knife? Oh, yeah, she takes the knife. They found the knife.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And then she goes home and washes it and cleans it a couple days later and pops it back. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. So I think it's pretty diabolical that she could spend six months kind of working on her own status in the social circles, sort of gaining, you know, popularity, so to speak, while she's carrying this incredible guilt.

[Producer/Host]

And again, we. I don't know how much of that is accurate. From the tv.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

No, this is from the stuff that I read. Not. I don't even think they. They do show it a little bit in the movie.

[Producer/Host]

So what did you think when you watched the movie? Like, were you just terrified for, like, your kid?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I felt like the. The main thing that I really thought was God, that those years of life, particularly for a girl, are so, so hard. And if you don't have any kind of infrastructure of support with your own family, even if, like, I mean, my. My parents and I, like, I hated my parents, quote, unquote, when I was that age. Right. But at the same time, I knew that they were, like, there for me. And I also felt like I had. It's just hard. All of my friends turned against me at one point, and, like, I felt horrible. I was suicidal. And you think all these things could just, like, are we just a hair away from doing this, or is it really. Did this girl have real, real mental problems? And it sounds like her family was very religious and sort of very strict. And I think, you know, there were a lot of pieces of the puzzle that kind of make it a perfect storm, that she felt very embarrassed by her own family's home. Like, all of these things are identified. Like, we can all Identify in some regard with these things. But how do you get from there to killing someone?

[Producer/Host]

So interesting, too, because at the time back then, I sort of remember, like, you know, like, I can understand that at the time where they're like the haves mores, right? Like, it's the haves and the have mores, right? But then when I think about, like, other. Other towns, other communities, other places in la, oh, my God. Right? It's like this is just a pretty average town, right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

It's like. But the feelings are the same. It's all relative, right? That's the thing that really freaked me out in watching it was do they

[Producer/Host]

make Kelly Martin sympathetic in it?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

A little bit. And she talks. She, you know, they do a little bit, but it's also. She's so. She's just so vulnerable. She's such a kind of a warm spirit as an actress and as a person that I think inherently you do. You're going to feel.

[Producer/Host]

And they make Tori unlikable.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

They make her kind of unlikable.

[Producer/Host]

I don't think that's.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Not entirely, but they make her like, she's very popular, she's mean, she's almost bullying her.

[Producer/Host]

I think they're taking a lot.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

There's.

[Producer/Host]

I don't want to speak out of school because again, I was in, you know, 10 years old, third grade at the time. But, like, I think they. They really leaned into that. And I don't. I don't think that's all accurate.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, because you don't know how much people are. Again, they.

[Kelly Martin]

I.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

A lot of what I'm saying, I'm taking from the Rolling Stone article, from other extensions, extensive articles that were written about this with interviewing these children. And also, you don't know. You know, people start to. To inflame and inflate stories because they might feel important. So, you know, to your point, maybe these things aren't as true. You know, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And, you know, girl, people can feel inferior even if someone is being perfectly nice to them.

[Producer/Host]

That's the thing we're trying to do with this show, is sort of see where these things are accurate and where they aren't. You know, like, I'm getting on a tangent, but I'm watching the jfk, Carolyn Bessette, and I'm like, oh, yeah? How made up is this? Like, how would they know what's happening, right? But I still like it. Like, that's the thing. I can. Two things can be true. I can enjoy it while I'm Also like, I don't. This isn't a documentary because, I mean, this is just a small town thing that happened that was. And then the fact that it became a movie was sort of wild too. Like, I remember being like, what?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. Like, surprised that that was even happening.

[Producer/Host]

And then how many people justifiably believe it's exactly true? So that you're like. Because I'm kind of like, you're going, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't know what's true. And I was here.

[Kelly Martin]

Right.

[Producer/Host]

I mean.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Producer/Host]

But you get my point. It's like. Yeah, it was just so

[Interviewer/Co-host]

terrible. Anyway, well, we're gonna chat with Kelly and get her insight.

[Producer/Host]

I've spoken to her about it before, and. And it's. It's interesting because she plays the other person and she had to figure out how to do that. Navigate. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

How to do that. Yep. All right, here we go. Kelly, welcome to Killer Thriller.

[Kelly Martin]

Thanks for having me.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Thank you so much for being here and for talking about this, which I'm sure you have spoken about before. Maybe.

[Kelly Martin]

It's kind of been a minute, actually.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, good.

[Producer/Host]

Okay. Okay.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Well, this. This case is so hard to metabolize, and it's heartbreaking on. On a lot of levels. But what did you. Just to start, what did you know about the case and what were you unaware of?

[Kelly Martin]

I have to be honest with you. I didn't know much except that it was based on a true story. And what was I, 17 when I did this? I think I didn't want to know much about it. I kind of wanted to just play. Angela is just this, you know, kind of my version of who she is, and I didn't want to be bogged down by anything true.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So you didn't write. You didn't try to talk to anybody or anyone in the community? You really tried to base it on what you saw on the page?

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I also. Knowing that she, you know, that Bernadette exists.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

Was, like, really colored my portrayal of her. I. I wanted her to be as sympathetic as possible. I wanted her to be like the opposite of a monster. I. I wanted people to really be able to kind of identify with her on. On. So that was really my impetus,

[Interviewer/Co-host]

and

[Kelly Martin]

I really haven't followed it much, except when I did the new version, I was like, oh. I kind of delved into it a little bit more, but definitely didn't with the first one.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. Well, so this is going to Be my question later on, but I'll ask it now since we're into it. You and Tori were both very close to the ages of these girls. And so did you identify with. Because so. So that everybody knows this is really. This community was very. I don't know if you can call it. It was a very wealthy community. And everybody there were very high expectations. It was very conventional. So these girls, it was all about fitting in, being the best, being well liked. And, you know, those are things that anyone at that age can identify with to some degree. So did you. Do you remember feeling like, oh, I identify with these feelings?

[Kelly Martin]

Yes, absolutely. I definitely identified with those feelings and certainly always put a ton of pressure on myself. But I, like, Angela felt very much like a fish out of water. She really didn't fit in with that community. And there's. I've never, you know, it's funny, like, I've been in so many situations where I felt that imposter syndrome. And I think that Angela felt that overwhelmingly in this community with her very Catholic, modest, humble family and then these kind of like, perfect, affluent, blonde, you know, people that she was around. I think that that feeling of desperately wanting to fit in, which I definitely felt like, because I was a child actor too. So, like, I never fit in in high school. I mean, I pretty much went to high school on set. So when I did have experience with my peers, I felt like I had, like, two left feet. I just never felt like I fit in. And I really. I know that Angela felt so much like that. I also think the thing that I don't think I felt, but I feel like I really tapped into when I was trying to portray her is this feeling of shame even before she committed the murder. Overwhelming feeling of, like, not only that she's not good enough, but shame.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes. So that anything I've read extensively about this case in there, I. So much of what she says, you know, her confession is really heartbreaking because she can't. And a lot of focus is put on how, you know, she was more. She was seemingly more concerned about what was going to happen to her as opposed to this horrific act that she had committed. But I feel like you can't separate the two because that deep feeling that she had of. Of insecurity and shame for her own. Not only for her inability to be what perhaps she felt she was supposed to be, that her family didn't have enough. And that's just heartbreaking.

[Kelly Martin]

I found her to be very heartbreaking. And, you know, when you read this, when you read the script, it definitely felt a little bit more neutral than that. And then as you watched the film, once it was made, and Tori definitely played the character very kind of mean. Like, she was mean.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Everything that I read about Kirsten, it just seemed like she wasn't a very nice person, that she was quite mean and used her popularity to climb up the ladder and really demean other people. Now, clearly, she did not deserve to die for that. But it's.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, I. I think when I did this scene where Actually stab. Where I stab her, I wanted her to just be quiet. Just be quiet. Just stop it. Just stop being that way. Stop being mean and just be quiet is kind of how I envisioned it. And I don't. First of all, the fact that there was a knife in the car is the craziest thing to me. I kept saying, really?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Wait, well, this is the thing. And then, like, some things I read, it seemed like that was fantastical. There's no way that it was in the car, but then it seems like, well, it was in the car. So did she really put it. Did her sister use it to cut vegetables?

[Producer/Host]

Like, what.

[Kelly Martin]

I don't know what it was actually used for in the car, but I believe it was in the car. And I really do. I think that that's what it was. This kind of like, just stop. Just stop. Just be quiet for a second and almost like, let me talk to you. Like, let me. Let me go now. And I also feel like she was just in this. Angela was just in this pressure cooker. She was just like. I feel like she never. She just wasn't seen. She wasn't heard by anyone in her family, by anyone at school, and she just wanted someone to hear her.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Kelly Martin]

Then when nobody did, then she kind of lived in this delusion of, oh, this. This is what people who are happy do. This is what people who are, you know, members, functioning members of society do and act like and are. And so if she can't be part of this group, then. Then she's somehow failed. But I really do. Like, I felt so much. I mean, I am an empathetic person. Like, that is just me. I just. I'm a sponge. Which is, I'm sure why I'm an actor, is that I soak up that kind of sadness and shame and all of that when. When I'm working. And that was really my overwhelming feeling for her. And I did. I did have empathy for her also. Especially being a mom now.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

To see kids who just can't.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

Can't you know, Yes, I have a

[Interviewer/Co-host]

13 year old right now and I'm. She's at that age where everything that she knew before, she's questioning like, who am I? How do I fit in? And she was going from this kid that was really independent and like on her own program to now like, oh, what is everyone else doing? Oh, I want to do these other. And it's a part of growing up. Right. But it's so terrifying when it can be this. You know, I read that she, that some of the classmates of Bernadette were saying, you know, all of the things that we're talking about. And then the thing that really broke her was not making the yearbook staff. And that was just like that was it. And I think that really speaks to how it's the building up of all of these things and it can just be one, one little extra that just puts you in the place where I can no longer take this.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, exactly. And I, I mean I even said to my 9 year old this morning, I said, okay, go to your room, brush your teeth, put your shoes on, put your glasses on and come back out. She's like, that's too many things. And I was like, really? I, I think I said, no, it's not, it's not too many things. But you don't know what's too much for someone.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

What it's like to be in that, in that mind and in that emotional place.

[Producer/Host]

And

[Kelly Martin]

obviously that's, this is not the way to solve your problems. But I do feel like she just, it got, it was so much. And it's one of those things that now I do feel like as a, as a society generally we are pretty, pretty well versed in recognizing when someone needs help, when to intervene. I. But especially the way her parents were portrayed. They were completely out to lunch and therapy or any of that would not have been something they would go to. You just pray on it.

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Now I'd

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[Bowen Yang]

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[Kelly Martin]

this is US Olympic gold medalist Tara

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woods.

[Kelly Martin]

As athletes, our lives are about having

[Interviewer/Co-host]

a clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Kelly Martin]

So when it came to getting the

[Interviewer/Co-host]

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[Kelly Martin]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA.

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

There were many theories about how this girl was murdered, none of which included it was going, it was a classmate, right. At first they were like, oh, they're satanists or a PCP driven induced rampage by someone. And then once they started to focus on the community, they immediately focused on two of the girls that had become kind of decided they weren't going to be like the rest, like dyeing their hair. They were punk rock. And I went, that was me. I was that person. I shaved half my head. I had combat boots, I wore black eyeliner. And for sure, the community at my school thought we were like sacrificing animals in the park, you know, which we weren't. We were painting and, and making videos, you know.

[Kelly Martin]

But you were different.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes, but we were different. And it was like, if anything's wrong, they've probably done it.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah. No. So of course that's who you would focus on. You wouldn't focus on a good little Catholic girl.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

Just kind of in the shadows, like, no way.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

That's not your prince.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But were you surprised at how.

[Producer/Host]

So she.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

The murder happens in June and it's not until December that she confesses. And apparently throughout that time, which they portray in the movie as well, she, you know, was starting to like, be the head of different clubs and was very engaged in sort of getting the popularity that she craved. Did you find that shocking?

[Kelly Martin]

Yes, absolutely. On one level, however, it does make. I can make it make sense in that once she got Kristen to just be quiet, to stop. To stop, then she could move into who she is and kind of be what she's capable of. And I, I think that this one person was standing in her way and was so loud in, in her face that she just needed to be able to. To move past this person. That's how I can make it make sense. Yeah. But of course it's shocking. Of course.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kelly Martin]

That you just move on with life and. And then she flourishes. Like, it truly is amazing and shocking and all of that. But that is how I think I made it make sense.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That's such a great. I love that, that whole intention of like, just stop, just be quiet so I can have a moment. And I think that's like that rage. Like, that's Those things build, and I think anybody can understand that sort of feeling. Yeah. So you and Tori, she was definitely your counterpart in this film, and I know you guys have spoken about this on her podcast, but what do you remember about the two of you telling the story either on set or how did you talk about your characters? Or did you try to sort of stay away from each other or what was the.

[Kelly Martin]

So we totally stayed away from each other. You did? I don't know. I was the prissiest thing you ever met. When I was 17 years old, and I knew that Tori, like, was known as a party girl, and I didn't. I mean, I worked with Tori for a minute on True Beverly Hills when we were, like, little kids. So I think that was probably the last time I saw her. So I totally took her reputation to mean that we were very different creatures. Like, we're not going to be. We're not going to be friends. I was very prissy. I don't even think I said, oh, my God. I would say, oh, my gosh. You know, like that. Me at 17. So it kind of ended up being a little methody, like I'm Daniel Day Lewis or something. So, like, the makeup trailer, like, we didn't talk, and we definitely didn't not talk about characters or any of that, I really think. And the director was very older. Like, he was, I want to say, like 80.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, wow. Right. Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

Which is interesting.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So he was very connected to the.

[Kelly Martin]

Exactly what you were identified with him. So I really think that I took a lot of, like, my own prissiness and kind of feeling very much a fish out of water just in my own life and put that in there. But then I got to work with Valerie Harper, who is. Who was. I'm so sad she's not with us anymore. An absolute gift. There is just. She's one of my favorite people that I've ever worked with. What a light. And I feel like she really informed so much of what I ended up doing as a character because she was the mom. So I feel like there was so much of her that I used. I kind of like a leech. I sucked. But it's funny, when Tori and I did talk about this recently, I was like, because Tori and I have never been friends. We're not enemies, but we just never were close. So it's just so funny how I was so judgy of her. And then also, I had a real chip on my shoulder. So you opened a can of worms. I had a real chip on My shoulder about how the show I was on. Life goes on. I felt like we worked so hard and it was so good and we never really got the glory because we were on like Sundays at 7 and we were just kind of a family show. But 9:02 know is so hot at that moment, and I was so jealous of that. I know. Interesting. I know. So I brought all of that with me.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, my God. That's sort of a gift, like a sort of.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I'm. I'm not totally method, but I'm a little method. So I did. I brought all that baggage with me and just used it.

[Bowen Yang]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

So, yeah, like, Tori and I, like, didn't really talk much, like, at all.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, my God, I love it. I did not know any of that.

[Kelly Martin]

I know. It's so funny. It's weird. I don't even know if I told her that on the podcast. I probably wanted to be more polite than that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right. I'm sure. I'm sure I probably did. Looking back now, as an adult, do you think that you understand that character, Bernadette and your character any differently? You know, or would you do. Do you just think you understand her any differently than you did then?

[Kelly Martin]

I think, like I said earlier, being a mom, I feel like I understand her differently because I have two daughters. I have a 19 year old and a 9 year old, and my 19 year old definitely went through some stuff and I had to really, like, adjust my way of thinking in order to imagine what it must be like for her. So I do feel like as a mom, I definitely see Bernadette in a different way now. But then I think I just. That feeling of shame and confession, confessing things and, you know, like she confessed in the. In the confessional. You remember that scene?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yep. Oh, yes.

[Kelly Martin]

First day of work, by the way. Crochet. First scene.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kelly Martin]

That was a really mean ad.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

That is a. That is a mean schedule. Yeah. That's a mean first ct. Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

So, I mean, I think

[Bowen Yang]

maybe if

[Kelly Martin]

I were to play her today, I would have. I would have made her a little bit have those moments of savvy and not just been a deer in headlights the whole time, because she really was a deer in headlights the whole time. But that's where I was at.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right, right.

[Kelly Martin]

That was just me.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

You know, I think about today just that. That pressure that a person could go through all of that and bring it to the point of taking a classmate's friend's life without the Internet, without social media, without Any of those things. And that terrifies me to think about today, what teenagers go through and that pressure that they could just be sitting in their room and inundated with. With negativity and people judging them and making them feel like it's really scary.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah. Like, who would Bernadette have been with social media and all of that? Right. That is a super interesting thing to think about. Maybe she would have had an outlet, you know?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

Maybe it wouldn't have been as bad. I. I don't. I don't know. Maybe she would have found her people on Reddit. I don't know. You know, because you can see it both ways. I mean, I am so. I hate technology. Like, I literally. Like, if I could go back to, like, medieval England, I would do it. I think technology is really terrifying in so many ways. But that being said, I do think that there are so many communities and especially marginalized communities, if you need to find your people, you know, you sometimes can. It can be a really positive thing as opposed to just a negative thing. So who knows?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But.

[Kelly Martin]

But maybe things could have been different for her.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah. Why do you think that this film continues to be a sort of cult classic? Why are we still talking about it?

[Kelly Martin]

Good question. Because people really still talk to me about this movie. I think it was pretty well done. And especially TV movies have evolved into being very obviously not the good ones that Nicole Kidman does, but the ones that are made to be kind of formulaic now. I do feel like this was a little film and could have been released in the theaters, because I really do think it was patient and it took its time telling the story. So I do think that just the quality of it holds up. I think it's just this kind of crazy, implausible thing that you just can't imagine it happening. So it is one to revisit. I think that maybe there's that element of, like, 90s fabulous. Like, you know, it's Donna Martin and Becca Thatcher.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Exactly. And Everybody loves the 90s right now, especially. Yeah.

[Kelly Martin]

You know, that's part of why people like to revisit it. But it definitely. I mean, it's a fascinating crime story with kind of this. These interesting characters. And, I mean, I think that's why people come back to it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, it certainly impacted that community. I mean, it pretty much decimated that community in a very large way where people still don't. You know. Our executive producer grew up there, and she talks about how she remembers looking for the Pinto, like, looking for the car that the Murderer drove and you know, like was. It impacted everyone and you know, rightfully so people don't really want to talk about it. It's like. And Bernadette, she who apparent she never served a full sentence.

[Kelly Martin]

She was a minor. Right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

She was a minor and she served seven of the nine years. And you know, and thinking about social. So she's out and she's been out for quite some time. And I wonder is if social media is helping her today.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah. She's never reached out to me, which she hasn't. Was always. No, that was always my

[Interviewer/Co-host]

fear.

[Kelly Martin]

It's just something I carried with me when I was making the film. Is I almost. Not that I wanted to make her proud. I wanted to do her justice.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Sure.

[Kelly Martin]

And knowing I was playing a real person, it weighed heavily on me. But I think that community, I mean, even if some high school kid gets into a car accident and passes away, it can ruin a community. It can haunt a community. I mean, those kids never get over it. My sister passed away at 19 from lupus. And her friends, whenever they see me, it's like they've seen a ghost they are haunted by. And that was an illness. It wasn't a horrific murder. So the fact that these two people were, you know, this, this, These two people were involved in this horrific murder at your high school, in your community, like, I get it. I, I don't think you can move on from that. You carry that with you, especially when you're a teenager. My gosh. Right. Printed on, on your psyche for the rest of your life.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

For sure. For sure. I mean, I, I just. This makes me.

[Kelly Martin]

We.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

A friend of mine in high school was. Died in a motorcycle accident and that was like. I mean, I remember all of us coming together in the, in the church basement and all, and you can't. Because you can't really even metabolize what's happening at that age really. And then it becomes like a part of the fabric of your life. And I, Everything that I've. I've read more about that community and you know, several people have said where they've said, you know, now what I, what I am reading is still years old from now, but years after the, the, the murder and you know, they were asking, do you think anything has changed? And has this had a. An impact that's positive in terms of how things are handled sort of slightly socially and culturally? And the answer was no.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, well, I'm sure that the people who lived there, I doubt they saw it as a reflection of who they were I, I mean, I bet they just, you know, thought this sad, desperate girl, right?

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Like, singular blame under you like to

[Kelly Martin]

think, I mean, I'm just guessing here, you'd like to think that they would have thought, oh, how. What are we showing these kids? How can we do better for them? How can we do better for a family that doesn't feel welcome here? You'd like to think that they do that, but that's just not usually what happens. So. Yeah, I don't know. But I mean, I would imagine that the kids who knew these girls, like, it's affected the choices they've made for. I mean, forever. Like, it really is kind of. It's monumental. It's such a tender time that those years, those. Oh, it breaks my heart. I mean, as a mom, like, it breaks my heart now.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

I mean, mine too. Mine too. You know, this, the, the. We, we talk so much about bullying these days, and it's such a word that everybody is familiar with, and it's, it's massively negative connotations.

[Kelly Martin]

Right. And overused sometimes.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

And overused.

[Kelly Martin]

And that's not really bullying.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right, exactly, exactly.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

So it's just like such a different time we live in, but you see the same dynamics. Like I said, my daughter, I, I see it, I see it happening.

[Kelly Martin]

And no, I have a 9. My 9 year old is like, about to enter that preteen world. So it's like I'm really enjoying every moment with her that I possibly can while it's still simple.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yep, yep. I know I just came back. I been traveling a lot and I came back, you know, and I, I struggle with that thing of you have to do this, you have to do that, and this is that. And like, you're saying this is not too much to ask, like, brush your teeth and do your homework. Don't be on the. Like, why, why do you have this tab open on your school laptop? You don't need it for that. And she said to me, God, you just come home and you just like, yell at me and ask me to do all this stuff. And I almost like fell down in tears and went, what is the balance? You know, like, what. Where I don't just go, hey, everything's cool, like, do whatever you want, right?

[Kelly Martin]

No, you come in and you, like, get to work. Yes, but what a great thing that she called you out on that.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yes.

[Kelly Martin]

I mean, I think that that's a good point. My daughters have kept me very accountable for my behavior, and I'm grateful for that, even though it's Hard to hear in the moment the fact that you're raising someone who will say, what? Come on. Right.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Give me a break.

[Kelly Martin]

Yeah, but that's, that's a well adjusted kid.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

You know, that is. As opposed to. Angela would have been like, I'm sorry, sorry. You know, buried her head in the sand and, and just stewed about it and felt awful about what she had done.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Right.

[Kelly Martin]

So I hope we can raise our daughters to be, you know, those confident

[Interviewer/Co-host]

people who are like, geez, right, I need a breath. But right.

[Kelly Martin]

Check yourself.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah, I know. I hope so too. I hope so too. This has been so great. You're such a pleasure. And we said at the beginning that we didn't. I were sort of shocked that we don't think we've ever actually met, which seems crazy.

[Producer/Host]

But it was.

[Kelly Martin]

But now we have.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

But now we have.

[Kelly Martin]

And I'm so pleased to be able to talk about this and it's so fun to think, you know, that something I did when I was 17, like that we still are talking about it now. It's been amazing.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

Yeah. I mean, bravo. It's meaningful work. So thank you so much, Kelly.

[Kelly Martin]

It was my pleasure. Nice to meet you.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

You too. Bye.

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[Kelly Martin]

So good.

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[Kelly Martin]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Interviewer/Co-host]

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[Kelly Martin]

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[Interviewer/Co-host]

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