← Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Killer Thriller Docu: Could new evidence in the Scott Peterson case prove his innocence?
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- [00:00]
Sky Borgman
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human 1010 Shots Fired, City hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
- [00:11]
Podcast Narrator
A shocking public murder.
- [00:13]
Podcast Advertiser
This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics.
- [00:19]
Jen Fessler
I screamed, get down. Get down.
- [00:21]
Sky Borgman
Those are shots.
- [00:23]
Podcast Narrator
A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery that may or may not have been political.
- [00:28]
Sky Borgman
It may have been about sex.
- [00:30]
Podcast Narrator
Listen to Rorschach Murder at City hal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:39]
Stephanie Young
In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.
- [00:46]
Sky Borgman
You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens? Correct. I doctored the test once.
- [00:52]
Stephanie Young
It took an army of Internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.
- [00:59]
Sky Borgman
Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.
- [01:01]
Jen Fessler
My mind was blown.
- [01:03]
Stephanie Young
I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.
- [01:05]
Sky Borgman
Laura Scottsdale Police.
- [01:07]
Stephanie Young
As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:18]
Ana Navarro
I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Ana Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is on. Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein In 2018, the Justice Department
- [01:47]
Jen Fessler
through we counted four presidential administrations failed these victims.
- [01:53]
Ana Navarro
Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:00]
Wicked Words Host
Sometimes a suspect is found guilty before a verdict is ever read in court. On the Wicked Words podcast, I talk with the writers who dig deep into the cases that changed history, including Marcia Clark, who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder cases to writing crime fiction.
- [02:17]
Jen Fessler
It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder. If you were at the scene at all, you're guilty of murder.
- [02:23]
Wicked Words Host
Every week, the real story is revealed. Join us every Monday for new episodes of Wicked Words. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:46]
Jen Fessler
Hi, guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. I'm your host, Jen Fessler, and we are going in depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and Most binged true crime documentaries and docu series. So today we are diving into the Netflix documentary American Lacy Peterson. I don't know if any one of you listeners remember Lacey and this story, but it happened on December 24, 2002. I remember it very well. Lacey Peterson, who was eight months pregnant, was reported missing by her son, Scott Peterson and stepfather. So Scott claimed that he'd gone to the Berkeley Marina, which was almost 90 miles away from their home, to go fishing that morning, and that he had last seen Lacy before he left their Modesto, California home. During the massive, and it was massive search for Lacy, a woman named Amber Fry came forward and told detectives that she had been dating Scott Peterson for months, which completely blew the whole case wide open and turned everyone's attention on Lacy's husband Scott as a possible suspect. Lacy and her son Connor's body washed up in the San Francisco Bay just a few miles away from where Scott Peterson had been, well, quote, unquote, fishing on the day of her disappearance. So Scott was arrested, charged for the murders of Lacey and their son Connor. And then there was a trial, actually a five month trial, and he was found guilty of first degree murder for Lacey's death and second degree murder for Connor's death. Initially, he was sentenced to death in 2005, and then the sentence was overturned in 2020 due to what they said was juror issues, resulting in re sentencing in 2021, where he was sent to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And today, I almost cannot believe it, but I am speaking with the most incredible director of this and many amazing documentaries, Sky Borgman. Sky, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. I'm a big, big, big fan of yours.
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Sky Borgman
Thank you.
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Jen Fessler
I am. I watched Unknown Number.
- [04:53]
Sky Borgman
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [04:56]
Jen Fessler
And we're not here to talk about it today, but maybe some other time. Maybe that is, that's some sick.
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Sky Borgman
Yeah.
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Jen Fessler
Fascinating. And the way that you did it, the way that, the surprise of it all. Anyway, sorry, guys, that's not. We're here to talk about. We are here to talk about Lacy Peterson. So I, I want to know first of all, how you got involved in this project. I mean, this is what you do, right? So you do, you do a lot of true crime. But this is, to me, this, this was iconic. So Lacey would be how old today? I feel like just about my age, I would guess.
- [05:32]
Sky Borgman
I mean, just about mine too. In her 50s.
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Jen Fessler
I'm 57. Yeah, I'm 57. Yeah. So, I mean, I remember this. It feels like it was Yesterday, but I remember it in real time. And so tell me what brought you to telling this story, why you picked Lacey in the story?
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Sky Borgman
I'm in the same boat. I mean, I remember it happening. I grew up on the West Coast. I was in, you know, Klamath Falls and now California, you know, so. So knew about this story, followed this story as it was happening, and had always kind of, you know, it always just haunts you a little bit. And I don't know exactly. Like, the story came about. Like, I was talking with Netflix and. And we talked about the Lacy Peterson story, and they felt like it was just a really great one to revisit. And. And I had such sort of a visceral response to it. And so we sort of chatted and said, yeah, let's. Let's do this. Let's go back and revisit. And there had also been. A few years back, there had been a kind of a Scott Peterson is innocent. Like, they were looking into that. And then right around the same time that ours came out, another doc came out that was more sort of heavily into questioning Scott's guilt and really saying that he was innocent. So I think that the timing of it really was fortuitous.
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Jen Fessler
Yeah. I'm wondering, I have to ask you, why American Murder? Why. Why is that the title? Just because it felt like this. All American.
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Sky Borgman
Yeah. I mean, American. This, Husband, wife, this. I mean, it feels like. I mean, it just feels like such an American story.
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Jen Fessler
It does and does.
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Sky Borgman
And it was such an American. I mean, like, you look at Lacy, and she just sort of exemplifies this quintessential American young woman marrying this guy. And so it just felt like such an American story that. That's how we landed on title. And then, to me, it was really important to have it be about Laci Peterson and not about Scott, because I feel like everything else we've seen has very much been about him. And I wanted Lacey to really be at the forefront of what this series was about.
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Jen Fessler
So. Right. And I felt that. Right. I definitely felt like this was. And I think that you were very objective in terms of the story, and especially because you had Scott's family on as well. But I felt very close to Lacey while watching it, certainly because of her mom and the way that you. Even the way that you had the friends sitting there and talking about her and then flashing back to them dancing around the living room, all of it made me feel close to her and very. Even more sad and made it all even that much more real. But you know, I don't feel like you were not objective. I do feel like you did have, even at the end, you know, you're very clear that his family, they do not think he did this. So, you know, but I feel like it was for Lacey.
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Sky Borgman
Yeah, it was for Lacey. And look, I think Scott's family wouldn't object to that. Like, they are sad that Lacey's gone too. And they've always said that, you know, that they miss her as well.
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Jen Fessler
But you're right.
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Sky Borgman
I mean, his family still 100% believes that he is not the one that killed her.
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Jen Fessler
So.
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Sky Borgman
And look at the beginning of the whole process, because these documentary had been done before about Scott's innocence. You know, I definitely looked into it and. And it's this massive undertaking to get all these police documents to. To reach out to officers involved, to reach out to Scott's family and to kind of see how all of these things land and what evidence is actually there that we want to talk about and what evidence can be a little bit like, not twisted, but looked at in a different way, you know, and to kind of approach it in a way that is objective and that we're really looking at what happened, how it happened, and what a jury ultimately decided.
- [09:39]
Jen Fessler
Yeah. Was it difficult, a difficult task to get, for instance, obviously, Lacey's mom on board? Was that. Was she all in from the beginning or did you have to work your magic?
- [09:50]
Sky Borgman
It was a little bit of magic. Sharon hasn't done an interview for anything, I don't think beyond, you know, when Lacey was first missing and she was reaching, news outlets were reaching out to her and she was looking for Lacey. But beyond that, Sharon has chosen not to speak publicly. And I'm not sure why she chose to do it this time. I mean, we'd been in contact with her for a pretty long period of time, for a year and a half or two years, talking to her about really wanting this to be about Lacey and having it be victim forward and. And she liked that. I think it was really just this kind of process of her figuring out that she wanted to take this opportunity to. To honor her daughter and to speak publicly about it. And I'm so thankful she did because I think her presence changes the entire series in such a great way to see this mother and daughter and their. And how she is, you know, years after the fact.
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Jen Fessler
It's funny because I remember her looking the way she did 20 years ago. So when you had, you know, tape of that and then flash forward to looking, she's a Beautiful woman.
- [11:01]
Sky Borgman
Age today, like she looks today. I know.
- [11:04]
Jen Fessler
Beautiful woman. And I, you know, but I look, I see her face and I guess, I don't know, for whatever reason, maybe I'm. She's a beautiful woman, but I can see that, the grief, you know what I mean? We all age and we all move
- [11:16]
Sky Borgman
on, but it just feels a little bit, you know, going through all of this, it steals a bit of your soul, I think.
- [11:22]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, yeah, it's true. What about Scott's sister, sister in law? Was it hard to get them on board?
- [11:28]
Sky Borgman
So we talked to them reasonably early on, and they're pretty willing to talk. You know, they. They take the opportunities they can to really say that Scott is innocent and so felt that this was another opportunity. And I have to say, you know, it was interesting talking to them because they fully know what speaking publicly can do and the backlash they can get and the support that they can get, you know, but, but, but they really feel that it's important to talk about. And so they were to be on camera.
- [11:59]
Jen Fessler
Has Amber spoken before this? I don't remember her speaking.
- [12:02]
Sky Borgman
I don't think has. Yeah, we reached out to Amber, too, and I don't think she'd ever been in before, but I mean, that clip of her, you know, getting up and doing the press conference is like seared into my brain.
- [12:14]
Jen Fessler
Yes, mine too. Mine too.
- [12:18]
Sky Borgman
Being able to sit down with Amber was. Was really great.
- [12:21]
Jen Fessler
Unbelievable. So. All right, so just specifics, because my head is spinning from it all and even you gave. There's so much information and I could just continue to ask questions and talk about it, and maybe that's a sign of, like a great documentary, is that you're still just so fascinated by it. Right. So after she went missing, the way he picked up the phone. Well, went missing, quote, unquote. But he picked. He literally just picked up the phone. I would have thought that he would have had it planned out a little bit better. Right. I mean, if this is premeditated murder, or maybe he is. He. You know, I think it probably was suspicious to, to law enforcement, but it just seems so weird and random.
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Sky Borgman
Well, I think what the strangest thing to me was was this.
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Jen Fessler
This dual story, the golfing, fishing part of it.
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Sky Borgman
Golfing, Fishing. Yeah, that he'd gone golfing and then it was that he'd gone fishing. So I think that that was. And to law enforcement, too. I mean, as soon as they started canvassing the neighborhood, you know, and heard that he had told a neighbor he had gone golfing and Then he. He told law enforcement he'd gone fishing. There was just a red flag that was raised there. So that. That was certainly suspicious, you know.
- [13:34]
Jen Fessler
Yeah.
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Sky Borgman
And the comings and goings. And just as it's funny because I had my showrunners from the Bay Area, and she's like, nobody drives from Modesto, drives an hour and a half to go fishing. Like, there's lakes everywhere to go fishing. So who would do that, you know?
- [13:51]
Jen Fessler
Right.
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Sky Borgman
So it's just that question on, you know, Christmas Eve, who drives that far? I don't particularly think it's hugely suspicious, but she is pregnant. You're leaving your wife that's, you know, eight months pregnant at this point in time and going fishing, and you've got plans to kind of go to the in laws later that night for. For Christmas Eve dinner. And it just. There's just some things that are a little bit weird.
- [14:17]
Jen Fessler
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Completely weird. I mean, from from the beginning, the way that he just called everyone, she's missing, she's missing, was just. So it was. It absolutely was, in my mind, a red flag. But a lot of this is. You know, a juror said that this case, that the.
- [14:36]
Sky Borgman
The.
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Jen Fessler
The prosecutors created a story. I don't remember what the exact quote was, but, like, they, obviously, they found the body. But in terms of just empirical evidence, I think there was a lot of evidence, but it was. The whole thing sort of makes sense when you see it in its totality. Right. Like, I can see how the people that love him the most can still be kind of in denial. Right. Because I don't know that there was ever. You tell me what you think, but like an absolute lie. I'm assuming you think he did it.
- [15:07]
Sky Borgman
Yeah, yeah. Look, and there was a lot. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence that when you pile all that circumstantial evidence on top of itself, it points to Scott Peterson family is. Is doing exactly what you're talking about saying. Well, there's no hard evidence. Like, DNA is impossible. Right. Because he's the husband. There's everywhere. So there's no way to. To link the DNA. There were no. There's no camera, you know, footage of showing, you know, him murdering Lacy. So there's no hard evidence that linked Scott to do this. He had a story about where he was, what he was doing, that he wasn't there, that he was off fishing. So. So there are different accounts of how things happened, but there's also what people absolutely knew from phone records and when his phone pinged close to the house. It seems to indicate that he was leaving in his truck, going to his work, driving that hour and a half to get to the Bay Area. Coming home. Getting home.
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Jen Fessler
Oh, there's, there's. Of course, there's every. Everything points to, to him. I don't. And again, it's not. I don't have any doubts about it, but I'm just saying I'm trying to, you know, picture as his mother, as his sister, as his, you know, I can see that they say there's not anything. There's no absolutes here necessarily. But the thing also that, that the only thing that was a disconnect for me was I think it was his father that said how. What a wonderful boy he was he grew up with. You didn't touch on this as much, but his family seemed pretty healthy for all intents and purposes and. I don't know. Right. Well, you didn't get into as much of that, but he just seemed like a guy and what, what, what the.
- [16:54]
Sky Borgman
Excuse me. There are some complicated family dynamics going on with the Petersons. I mean, one of the more interesting things is, is that his parents. It. Scott was their biological son and they had, they had, you know, he had brothers and sisters on both sides of the family.
- [17:12]
Jen Fessler
Right. Oh, right. Okay.
- [17:14]
Sky Borgman
So he was really kind of the golden boy.
- [17:18]
Jen Fessler
Right. I remember you. Yeah, yeah, I remember that.
- [17:20]
Sky Borgman
Got a lot of attention kind of for that. And he was, he was really. Yeah, he was really, you know, theirs and loved by them. So. But look, lived an incredibly privileged life. They had good money, they belonged to country clubs. You know, they were. There was a lot of privilege in that life.
- [17:38]
Jen Fessler
So not. Okay. And the golden boy and tall and good looking. I mean, and all of these like, really charisma. I didn't see him as. Because. And, and even the. I think the police law office said like he's very monotone. So I didn't get the charismatic piece of him in the document. Maybe he seemed cold blooded a little to me in it, but I mean, listen. And you know, she. Even her name fit her. She's so adorable. Just late. She seemed like a Lacey, you know, but. But the part that made me want to think maybe he didn't do it is that whole part that I can't understand where he was coming from. Even with the affair, he didn't want to have children. And, And I don't know if she knew. I don't think she even knew that he was having an affair. Right. If there's Been any. Right. So she didn't even know. So what drives a golden boy who grew up in country clubs, who met the world's most adorable woman and to commit murder?
- [18:40]
Sky Borgman
What the f. I mean, it's the big question, right? And I think it's. And I think that's. That's part of the reason why there are people out there who think that he didn't do it because. Yeah, get a divorce. Just get a divorce. If you don't love her anymore, you met this other woman, you don't want to be a dad. I mean, there are plenty of deadbeat dads out there who don't murder their 100%. So be a deadbeat dad.
- [19:03]
Jen Fessler
I had one. I know all about it. Right.
- [19:06]
Sky Borgman
So he had options that didn't. That didn't have to include murder. So, I mean, it is a big question. Like, why would he go to those extremes? I think the other big question, too, is like, you know, when did he do it? How did it happen? Like, what were the actual circumstances? And I don't think anybody is. Will ever know how he killed her or what happened.
- [19:28]
Jen Fessler
They said. So one of. I guess maybe she's FBI, said it was a soft murder, meaning that it was either strangulation, strangulation or suffocation. Right?
- [19:39]
Sky Borgman
Yeah.
- [19:39]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, because that's what they think.
- [19:41]
Sky Borgman
Yeah.
- [19:42]
Jen Fessler
Right. Because there was no blood.
- [19:46]
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- [20:17]
Jen Fessler
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [20:24]
Sky Borgman
1010 shots fired.
- [20:25]
Jen Fessler
City hall building.
- [20:27]
Sky Borgman
A silver.40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene.
- [20:31]
Podcast Narrator
From iheart podcasts and best Case Studios, this is Rorschach. Murder at City Hall.
- [20:37]
Sky Borgman
How could this have happened at City Hall? Somebody tell me that. Jeffrey. Who did it?
- [20:41]
Podcast Narrator
July 2003. Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons, and in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.
- [20:59]
Sky Borgman
Help.
- [20:59]
Jen Fessler
Everybody in the chambers.
- [21:01]
Podcast Narrator
Abduct a shocking public murder. A scream.
- [21:04]
Jen Fessler
Get down. Get down.
- [21:05]
Sky Borgman
Those are shots. Those are shots.
- [21:07]
Jen Fessler
Get down.
- [21:07]
Podcast Narrator
A charismatic politician.
- [21:09]
Sky Borgman
You know, he just bent the rules all the time, man.
- [21:11]
Podcast Narrator
I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret.
- [21:18]
Sky Borgman
He alleged he was a victim of
- [21:21]
Jen Fessler
lockdown that may or may not have been political.
- [21:23]
Sky Borgman
That may have been about sex.
- [21:25]
Podcast Narrator
Listening to Rorschach, murder at City hall on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:37]
Stephanie Young
In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed
- [21:46]
Jen Fessler
glaring inconsistencies in her story.
- [21:49]
Stephanie Young
This began a years long court battle to prove the truth.
- [21:52]
Sky Borgman
You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens? Correct. I doctored the test once.
- [21:57]
Stephanie Young
It took an army of Internet detectives to crack the case.
- [22:00]
Sky Borgman
I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant.
- [22:07]
Stephanie Young
They would uncover a disturbing two more men who'd been through the same thing.
- [22:11]
Sky Borgman
Gregospey and Michael Maranchini.
- [22:13]
Stephanie Young
My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap.
- [22:19]
Sky Borgman
Laura Scottsdale Police.
- [22:21]
Stephanie Young
As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.
- [22:25]
Sky Borgman
Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at a Maricopa county as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.
- [22:32]
Jen Fessler
This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.
- [22:37]
Stephanie Young
Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:43]
Ana Navarro
I'm Ana Navarro and on my new podcast BLEEP with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.
- [23:20]
Jen Fessler
The Justice Department through, I think we counted four presidential administrations failed these victims.
- [23:28]
Ana Navarro
Listen to BLEEP with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:47]
Jen Fessler
What about the part where they say that Connor, I don't remember if this was proven or not, but that he was alive maybe outside of the womb.
- [23:57]
Sky Borgman
Yeah, so, so there's some, some, some differing opinions here. So there was an expert who came in and, and said that they believed that he'd been alive outside of this wound of the womb because there's a fecal matter, a muco. I don't remember what it's called.
- [24:14]
Jen Fessler
That's exposed mucus membrane, something. Yes.
- [24:17]
Sky Borgman
Okay. And he still had that intact. So they. They seem to think that he was. Could still have been alive. There were also some indications of, like, how far along she was in her pregnancy and the size of the little baby corpse that washed up onto the shore. And those seem to not exactly, you know, exist in the same place, but there's always sort of windows, and so there's. It's those questions and those potential sort of things not quite lining up that I think are one of the main reasons that. That this story still sort of entices all of us, that we still have people out there saying this doesn't line up. I think he's innocent, or it doesn't really matter. I think he's guilty. And why those conversations still exist today. Really heated conversations still exist.
- [25:05]
Jen Fessler
And I get it. I really do, because I think he did it, but I wouldn't want to be on the jury.
- [25:12]
Sky Borgman
I know, I know.
- [25:13]
Jen Fessler
I mean, I'm not, and I'm. In my mind, there's no question, but I still wouldn't want to be the person that, you know, sentenced him to death.
- [25:21]
Sky Borgman
I know. Yeah.
- [25:22]
Jen Fessler
I don't know. I don't know. All right, so what about the friends? So, first of all, did they give you any. They were interested. Were they interested from the get go? Were they happy to do it, or did that take any?
- [25:32]
Sky Borgman
It was really. It was really a conversation because Sharon and the friends are so close. Like, they. It really was kind of a, okay, we're either all gonna do this or none of us are gonna do it. And so there was a lot of con that they had amongst themselves and with Sharon to try to figure out if this was the right thing to do. And ultimately, they all. They all did. They were. They were going to do what Sharon wanted them to do.
- [25:53]
Jen Fessler
And Sharon really.
- [25:54]
Sky Borgman
Yeah.
- [25:55]
Jen Fessler
And, you know, they felt like my friends. Yeah, that's. That's the thing. Like. And that was another part of it that was just. I thought was so. So great in terms of the storytelling of it, to have their perspective, to talk about baby showers and, you know, their pain. I thought that was. I don't know, it.
- [26:17]
Sky Borgman
It.
- [26:18]
Jen Fessler
It made her even that much more human, you know, And I felt. I felt for them. And. And also it feels to me, though, like they had their doubts about. Wasn't touched on too much, but they had their doubts about Scott before it happened. And I don't know that they said anything really incriminating necessarily, but do you feel like that like, they kind of look.
- [26:41]
Sky Borgman
It's always to 20 20. Hindsight's 20 20, right? Yes.
- [26:44]
Jen Fessler
Back.
- [26:45]
Sky Borgman
And. And I think they didn't, you know, like, he was kind of this. Like a hey, hey, hey kind of guy.
- [26:50]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:52]
Sky Borgman
I do lots of this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be right.
- [26:54]
Jen Fessler
Yes, yes.
- [26:55]
Sky Borgman
One of those. I think they. They caught on to that pretty quickly. But they also, you know, their best friend was also super in love with him, so they're like, all right, so he's a little bit of a mover and shaker, but he seems like a decent enough guy, comes from a decent family, so. So it's okay. And I think that is especially hard as a friend or as a mom to sort of be on the other end of it and kind of go, why didn't I know better? Why didn't I trust that gut instinct? Why didn't I say, lacy, this kind of a dick?
- [27:26]
Jen Fessler
Guess what, sky, you know, how many of my friends are married to dicks? Sorry, I don't mean you. But seriously, like, how many blowhards do I know? Right? It's not like that wouldn't be like, don't marry me. He's a murderer. Right. So, you know, I hope that they don't have guilt around any of that or anything, because it seems like they were such good friends.
- [27:46]
Sky Borgman
Great friends. I mean, like, great friends. Like, even, you know, once Lacey was married, she was the first of. Of the group to get married, and. And was she the first? She was young. She was one of the first to get married, and. And they still like, hung out. You know, like, when you're young and married, like, kind of forget about your friends, and you go off and you're just doing stuff with your husband. And she and her friends were still just doing everything together. They were really, really close.
- [28:12]
Jen Fessler
So talk to me a little bit about her friends and her mom and Amber. I thought that was such an interesting part of this story, the way that they were able to. I don't know if the word is embrace Amber, but almost, it almost. It feels like they almost felt for her, like she was duped. They knew it. And just because she had an affair with Lacy's husband, they were not going to, you know, condemn her and instead actually almost felt like, embrace her. I mean, is that how it went down?
- [28:40]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. I mean, pretty much. I would. I wouldn't say they all went on to be really chummy.
- [28:44]
Jen Fessler
No. Right, right, right.
- [28:45]
Sky Borgman
But what Amber did, she brought answers when there were none. And so Lacey's friends and her family really appreciated getting some answers out of this abyss. And for that, they were able to kind of really understand where Amber came from and that she was duped as well. And they were able to really embrace her and not blame her, which the media did. Just massive experience.
- [29:16]
Jen Fessler
I remember that's what I was about. That was my next question. Because in the documentary, it was clear the way that you made it. This is not somebody who. This is somebody that was duped. This is not somebody that had anything to do with this murder, disappearance and if anything, was a victim here as well. But I remember that. I don't know that she was a suspect, an official suspect, but kind of, if I'm remembering correctly, like, she was considered. Was she part of it? You know, did she. Was it a team idea? Is that right?
- [29:48]
Sky Borgman
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that was really. I don't think she was. I mean, initially, as she calls in, she's like, I'm seeing Scott Peterson. Of course the cops are going to look at her. But the cops pretty quickly realized that. That she didn't. That Scott had been married and she was so instrumental. Like those calls that she made.
- [30:08]
Jen Fessler
Okay, what, What. I mean, she missed her calling. She should have been an FBI agent. Something I know was. She was good. That was unreal. I don't know how she held it together.
- [30:21]
Sky Borgman
I don't know how she did either. She's just. And there's a little bit of coaching, you know, from Brookini, but. But not really. Like, you hear her on those calls, and she's believable, and she's trying to get answers, but not push Scott too far. And. And there were a lot of taped calls that she had. And so as soon as she was willing to. To tape those calls and be on the law enforcement side, like, I think it was pretty clear early on to law enforcement that she was not part of it. But it's such a great story. Right. The media picked up on it and. And was able to really drag her through the mud for an extended.
- [30:57]
Jen Fessler
You just reminded me there was a apart in it where. I don't remember again, if it was FBI or the police. They're watching it. I was a woman and watching it, watching the media frenzy and saying, we did this. Like, we created this. Or was it. No, that's. Excuse me. It was somebody from the media. It was the interviewer. It was. What is her name? The blonde woman. Yes. And she said, did we do this? And I thought that was so interesting. Right, because obviously it was A media frenzy. And I think it sounds. It sounded like the likes of which has not really been seen before in terms of. These were not famous people. Right, right. This was all as you said it was, because maybe they were so all American. But I thought it was interesting that she. It almost felt like she was taking some responsibility for it. Do you know. I mean, you know her, obviously.
- [31:47]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. I think as part of the media, you know, everybody kind of knows why a good story is. They carry with them a huge responsibility of how they impact that story, of what they do to have that story go in the right direction, in the wrong direction. But there's also incredible pressure from networks to get these stories, to get to the heart of these stories, to get the most salacious things of these stories. So I think with every journalist there's always this push and pull of what is ethical, what is real, and what's going to get the ratings. And sometimes, especially 20 years ago, it was very. These things weren't talked about quite as much as they are now. And so getting the ratings was one of the more important things.
- [32:31]
Jen Fessler
So you do think she felt like she had created. I don't know her. I could contributed in some way to the outcome of the story.
- [32:39]
Sky Borgman
I mean, I don't. Yes, absolutely. I think she feels she contributed in some way to the outcome of the story.
- [32:45]
Jen Fessler
Good or bad.
- [32:47]
Sky Borgman
Yeah, I don't think she felt like it was an entirely bad thing. I mean, like there was pressure on Scott Peterson at this point, you know, and everybody was kind of talking about this. I don't know that she necessarily had. Has any guilty feelings about.
- [33:02]
Jen Fessler
I hope not. I certainly hope not.
- [33:04]
Sky Borgman
But like, I think it's, you know, it's also. Look, I mean, she's also a journalist and her job is to hold Scott's feet to the fire. And I think she did a pretty good job of that, too. And that's not an easy thing to do necessarily.
- [33:15]
Jen Fessler
So was she scared because she said something? She was walking into a house and when she walked out of it, she was sure he did it. Now, you're not. You're not carrying, I assume, and you're a journalist going to someone's house, right? You're going to. I mean, that's. I don't know that I could pull that off. She's walking straight in to this person that. That, you know, could have murdered his wife and unborn child. That's pretty ballsy.
- [33:39]
Sky Borgman
Right? She's. She's incredibly good at her job and she clearly such a firecracker. Yeah, I think maybe she thought about it, but I think she probably thought about it more after the interview was finished. Like, you go in and you're like, I want to get the truth. And then you walk out and you're like, hang on. This guy.
- [33:55]
Jen Fessler
Holy fuck. Holy shit.
- [33:57]
Sky Borgman
Yeah.
- [33:58]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, Mommy. So there's a whole other part that you focused on. And we. We touched on it already, but I just couldn't. It was hard to watch. But part of it, like when Sharon made the two lists, you know, like, did he do it? Did he not do it? And it came up. The list was longer.
- [34:16]
Sky Borgman
That.
- [34:17]
Jen Fessler
Like this. That's, like, a specific thing that she's sharing with us. And those are the kind of moments that, for me, felt very. Just, like, emotional, you know, as to know that. That she, you know, she was willing to talk about that. It just felt very intimate and a detail that maybe wasn't important to the, you know, trajectory of the story, but that made me feel attached to her. Right. Like, in that way.
- [34:40]
Sky Borgman
And to, you know, a mother's anguish. To anyone's face.
- [34:43]
Jen Fessler
Yes.
- [34:44]
Sky Borgman
It's such a tiny detail. But to remember it 20 years later that you made this list.
- [34:50]
Jen Fessler
Those are. Yes, yes.
- [34:52]
Sky Borgman
And that list clearly was something very important to her because it brought up all these reasons of, like, things that she had seen in Scott that maybe she should have talked to Lacey about, but because she saw Lacey was so in love with him, you know, she didn't talk about it.
- [35:10]
Jen Fessler
And when she talked about how she shouldn't, Lacey said, should I get married? Am I too young?
- [35:16]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. I mean, the regret, you know, it's all. It's all over the place there, isn't it? And she was just like, no, whatever you want. Whatever you want.
- [35:23]
Jen Fessler
I hope not. I hope. I hope she's not living in anything but, you know, obviously grief.
- [35:29]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's. I think it's impossible not to live with something, you know, but. But Sharon lives a happy life.
- [35:39]
Jen Fessler
Good. Really? I'm glad to hear that.
- [35:41]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. She's. She's doing well. And with Lacy's friends, like, they're all a little. A little family of their own, and so they're very, very close to this day.
- [36:05]
Jen Fessler
We saw Lacey's stepfather. I don't know that we saw Lacey's father.
- [36:08]
Sky Borgman
No, he was not in the documentary.
- [36:10]
Jen Fessler
He wasn't interested in it.
- [36:11]
Sky Borgman
No. And her stepfather wasn't in because he's passed away.
- [36:14]
Jen Fessler
Got it. But they showed. I want to say there were clips of him, weren't There of her stepfather. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pictures of him.
- [36:23]
Sky Borgman
And I don't remember exactly the year that he passed away, but it was a few years ago. So he had. He was there when they were searching for Lacey. He and Sharon were kind of there in lockstep together.
- [36:35]
Jen Fessler
And what about her father?
- [36:37]
Sky Borgman
Her father was up, too, and he was, you know, he was searching for her. He was very much involved with any kind of media presence that they were putting out there, and he was very emotional about her being gone, but didn't want to participate in the documentary. Yeah.
- [36:52]
Jen Fessler
It's so interesting. I mean, I hope that it must be. I can't imagine being you, first of all, and trying to talk to these people and hold your together. Right. And you said it took a couple years to get everyone on board and. But I'm so glad you did. I'm. When they watched it, did they feel good about it? Like, did they say to you. Because it did show it from. It was about Lacey. Right. And not about Scott. I hope they felt great about that.
- [37:20]
Sky Borgman
I. I know Sharon did. I mean, I had reached out to her, you know, before the. The show came out. I was in a lot of contact with her and. And with Lacey's friends and. And I said, look, I can. I can. You don't have to watch it. But it is. I told her when it was coming out and. And she ended up watching it. They all came together and watched it together and. And she did say, you know, thank you for making it about Lacey, because so many times I think people have said this is going to be about Lacy and have asked her to do interviews and she's declined and then watch it, whatever show comes out, and it hasn't been so much about Lacy. So she. She does feel good about. About doing the interview and about the approach that we took and that we really did highlight Lacy as the most important element in the film, in the series.
- [38:06]
Jen Fessler
Even just talking about her wanting the wedding to be so perfect. She was. She just looked like a little doll, you know, she was so. And I don't remember, obviously, I remember the story, but I don't remember thinking that much about her and what she was like. I just remember at the time, like, the disbelief, like, really did this husband and for what reason? And then the. Well, she's not. I guess she wasn't a mistress. But then the Amber of it all and not really taking the time to think about this person and her family. So, I mean, I don't know. I'm so glad that I was Able to, to see that. You know, I think it's. And, and I'm noticing that now. Well, certainly you're, you're a big, you're a big documentarian. Is that. Look at me go. Right. So when you approach stuff like this, are you usually sort of guided by I want to tell this story differently or I want to give the audience a different perspective.
- [39:06]
Sky Borgman
Definitely. And, and also just, you know, I'm very committed to victim forward stories. I feel like there's been a lack of those. I mean now, now we're getting to a point where we're telling stories from victims perspectives a little bit more. But that's very important to me. Women, you know, anything. Women's issues. Look, and they don't have to be the heroes of the story. They can be the villains of the stories. But showing complicated, interesting women is, is very important to me. And, and really giving, giving a voice to the voiceless or a different perspective to something that's been, that's been kind of out there in the same sort of narrative for, for quite some time. So all those things are really important to me.
- [39:47]
Jen Fessler
That's. Well, well done. Because I feel like that's. Absolutely. You're very welcome. So this is just. I'm telling you like you watch this and to our listeners, if you haven't watched, you must. But there was aspects of it, and I wonder if they struck you that like the tapes you had the actual voices from Scott and his. And the brother in law when. Right. Talking about Amber and that were so chilling. And Lacey's voice. I don't think it. Well, wasn't. Was it Lacey's actual voice that you had? She was writing in her journals. No, that was an actress. Okay. We'd hired an actress reenactment. Okay. I mean it felt like. Were those her words?
- [40:30]
Sky Borgman
Those are her words. Yeah. And that was her journal and those were her words. Yeah.
- [40:35]
Jen Fessler
Wow. I mean, when she said, you know, Scott said he doesn't want to be a parent. But you know, I think he. Whatever she said, we'll get used to it or something or he's just not excited right now. Okay. So you. I guess no one can know this for sure, but if anyone knows, maybe you do. So how much of this do you think was about the fact that he didn't want a kid and how much. Oh, I'll let you answer that. And then I have got to ask you about something else.
- [40:58]
Sky Borgman
Okay. I think, I think a lot of it was. I mean it's the only. It's the Only reason I can come up with, honestly is that he just felt such a tie like that having a child with this woman would be a tie that he couldn't step away from for whatever reason he came up with. So I absolutely feel that that is what sort of prompted him to commit this murder.
- [41:22]
Jen Fessler
Yeah. Even more than Amber.
- [41:24]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know if he really imagined himself in a long term relate. I don't think he wanted to be in a long term relationship. I don't think he wanted to settle down. I don't think he wanted to have a family. And so he found himself in this situation where he was married to this woman and having a baby. And I don't think he wanted to be there.
- [41:43]
Jen Fessler
A lot of men don't. I mean, we've already touched on this. But like, that's your answer. That's what's so hard. It's like, okay, you know, like say what. What I thought was fascinating also and. And very upsetting. So I had no idea that pregnant women are more likely to. What are the. Now the number one cause of death for pregnant women?
- [42:04]
Sky Borgman
I'm a side.
- [42:06]
Jen Fessler
How is that possible? Oh, how is that possible? I mean, I don't. I'm trying to think of the logistics of that. How is that possible? More than complications, more than.
- [42:18]
Sky Borgman
It's crazy. I didn't know that statistic either. And I was like, this can't be right. This must be a statistic.
- [42:24]
Jen Fessler
Right. That's what I thought. How is that possible?
- [42:26]
Sky Borgman
It's absolutely true.
- [42:28]
Jen Fessler
It's really good information. Not. It's not fun information, but good information to have. I think it's important information to have. Right. Because that was quite astounding to me.
- [42:39]
Sky Borgman
I know, I know. Me too. And I think it's one of the driving reasons why we made the documentary. Why Sharon Rocha wanted to be a part of the documentary was to really shed light on that, because that is a statistic we have never heard before.
- [42:55]
Jen Fessler
I've never heard that before.
- [42:56]
Sky Borgman
I know, I know. You hear how many people are raped? You know?
- [43:00]
Jen Fessler
Yeah.
- [43:01]
Sky Borgman
More people. Women who are raped.
- [43:03]
Jen Fessler
Right.
- [43:04]
Sky Borgman
Three now probably, you know?
- [43:06]
Jen Fessler
Yeah. Is that really true? Oh, God.
- [43:08]
Sky Borgman
And it's something like 95% kidnap people or from people they no longer trust. I mean, so there are all sorts of crazy statistics out there, but I'd never heard that one before.
- [43:18]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, that. That was. That was hard to hear. And yeah, I had to sit back and think that through a little bit. I was like, are you sure about that? Yeah, I Don't know. I mean, there's the thing about this whole thing that could keep me up at night, and I don't know that you can ever get the answer to it, but is, you know, how did. How did he turn, or was he always a psychopath or did he turn into one when he felt trapped? And those people that. That statistic is that men that feel trapped, that are. That are murdering their. Their wives. Yeah.
- [43:53]
Sky Borgman
I mean, that's what I would guess, is that he just felt trapped, trapped by the whole thing, and that's what pushed him to do it. But. Yeah, and maybe it's all the men that feel that way who kill their wives, who have their babies.
- [44:04]
Jen Fessler
I mean, unbelievable. So I know you know this, but the, The Los Angeles Innocent Project. I believe it's called the Innocent Project. Right. So they say that there is new evidence, and I believe it's attached to the burglaries, maybe. Is that correct?
- [44:19]
Sky Borgman
It is correct, yeah. And that they came out publicly with that right around the time that the film came out, that they were taking Scott on as a client. I think it is important just to. To put out there that this is the Los Angeles Innocence Project.
- [44:34]
Jen Fessler
Right. It's not the.
- [44:35]
Sky Borgman
It's not the.
- [44:37]
Jen Fessler
Yes.
- [44:38]
Sky Borgman
Yeah. And so they're just a little smaller. They haven't been around for quite so long, not to diminish anything that they're doing at all. But. But it is different from some of these bigger, high profile cases that they have. They found the man innocent or the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator innocent after spending years and years.
- [44:55]
Jen Fessler
What was that? They had. They claim there's DNA evidence. Is that correct?
- [45:00]
Sky Borgman
So there's. There was a van, there's a few things, and I don't know if I know it 100%, but there was a van that was found a mile or less than a mile away from their house that was burned out, that there was DNA that was never tested. So they wanted to test that DNA, as far as I know, and I could be wrong here, I don't know if that DNA. I don't think that DNA has come back with a positive match to Lacey.
- [45:24]
Jen Fessler
I don't think so either.
- [45:26]
Sky Borgman
I don't think it has. And so there was that there was. I mean, for a long time, the Peterson family has said that there were misrepresentations in some of these witness testimonies, that there were witnesses that saw Lacey and the dog walking after Scott had left the house. We had all those witness testimonies. We had the mailman testimony that said that the gate was open and people. And we talked to the police officers and they said, look, yes, people saw a woman walking a dog. Some people thought she was pregnant. Some people thought it was a lab, Some people thought it was a German shepherd. Like, there was never anybody who knew Lacy Peterson knew the dog and without a doubt said, we saw Lacy Peterson walking this dog after Scott had left for his work that day. So. So the sisters have been able to find some inconsistencies. We were never able to find those.
- [46:24]
Jen Fessler
How does Scott's sister and sister in law feel about the documentary? Did you get backlash from them? Did they know that it was going to be really Lacy based?
- [46:31]
Sky Borgman
I mean, I told them it was going to be very Lacey based initially when I started, you know, I said, look, I'm going to tell the most truthful story I can. I'm going to look into Scott and if there's evidence there that points to his innocence, I'm going to put that forward. I know that they felt that this was a story that has been told 100 times over and that it's not the real story.
- [46:51]
Jen Fessler
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:53]
Sky Borgman
That their perspective wasn't. Was. Wasn't fully sort of put out there. And I know they feel that way.
- [47:01]
Jen Fessler
Okay, you're a genius. What are you working on now?
- [47:06]
Sky Borgman
I'm working on a couple things. I've got a show that I just finished. I can't tell you what it is at this moment in time.
- [47:15]
Jen Fessler
Come on. Offline.
- [47:19]
Sky Borgman
It's going to be out probably July or August and three part series on Netflix.
- [47:25]
Jen Fessler
So, I mean, you are like the queen of the genre.
- [47:28]
Sky Borgman
I know.
- [47:29]
Jen Fessler
And I have. My producers are telling me I have to rap, unfortunately. But I can't tell you how much I appreciate your coming on, truly. And I just. I was so touched. I was horrified. I was. All the things that, I guess when you watch True Crime, but I did feel, if anything, like just closer to Lacey. And I'm glad that I. I had a chance to get to know her. Right. And like, really get to know her friends. And I. I love that about. Probably most of all about.
- [47:56]
Sky Borgman
Thank you. That makes doing it all worthwhile.
- [47:59]
Jen Fessler
Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Come back, please.
- [48:02]
Sky Borgman
I will.
- [48:02]
Jen Fessler
Thank you. Okay. Okay. Be well.
- [48:15]
Sky Borgman
This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.