KILLER THRILLER DOCU: How Utah Influencer Ruby Franke and Therapist Jodi Hildebrandt Used Faith to Justify Child Abuse

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present – Killer Thriller Docu Edition: How Utah Influencer Ruby Franke and Therapist Jodi Hildebrandt Used Faith to Justify Child Abuse
April 11, 2026 | Host: Jen Fessler | Guest: Natasha Helfer, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist

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Episode Overview

This episode of Killer Thriller Docu Edition delves into the Netflix documentary "Evil Influencer: The Jody Hildebrandt Story," focusing on the shocking case of parenting YouTuber Ruby Franke and therapist Jodi Hildebrandt, both of whom used extreme, faith-based ideologies to justify the severe abuse of children. Host Jen Fessler is joined by therapist and documentary contributor Natasha Helfer to unpack how religious doctrine, shame, and therapy gone wrong created fertile ground for abuse, and to discuss the broader cultural and systemic issues that enabled such horrors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Case: Ruby Franke, Jodi Hildebrandt, and Justified Abuse

• Recap of Events

  • In August 2023, Ruby Franke’s emaciated, injured son escaped Jodi Hildebrandt’s home, begging neighbors for help ([02:40-03:40]).
  • Police discovered another abused child inside, exposing a pattern of severe mistreatment masked as religious discipline.
  • Both women were arrested and pled guilty to child abuse.

• Therapist as Enabler

  • Jodi Hildebrandt, a licensed therapist, used extreme interpretations of Mormon doctrine to justify punishing children as "evil."
  • Many victims turned to Natasha Helfer after leaving Hildebrandt’s care, sharing disturbingly similar stories ([06:09-07:02]).

"I have met with quite a few—more than 15 or 20 clients personally that have been affected by her practices."
— Natasha Helfer [06:26]

Faith, Therapy, and Cultural Shame

• Religious Overreach in Therapy
  • Natasha explains that Hildebrandt’s practices are an extreme yet not rare example of religious bias corrupting mental health care, particularly in conservative faith communities ([06:26-08:39]).
  • The "porn addiction" model, still alive in such spaces, is debunked but persists due to religious influence.

"I do consider her a bit of a dime a dozen. Problems in space."
— Natasha Helfer on Hildebrandt’s style [07:02]

• Impact of Sexual Shame
  • Shame-based messaging about sexuality can have life-altering psychological impact—even for those outside of extreme situations ([08:39-09:33]).
  • Religious communities often encourage therapists to reinforce doctrine over best clinical practice.

"You can see how that craft door open for a lot of therapists to basically function from their own religious bias instead of their training."
— Natasha Helfer [09:36]

The Mormon Church and Systemic Enablement

• Church-Supported Authority
  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church) would indirectly support therapists like Hildebrandt who "would not challenge their doctrine" ([10:13-11:34]).
  • Standard therapeutic ethics—leaving religious bias at the door—are regularly violated in such communities.

"The Mormon Church in particular specifically looks for therapists who are not going to challenge their doctrine, their ideas."
— Natasha Helfer [10:13]

• Gender and Power
  • The culture’s gender roles intensify shame and vulnerability, particularly around sexuality and "purity" ([13:22-17:48]).
  • Male sexual missteps are pathologized while women are reinforced as "righteous victims."

"The woman is trained by the religion to see that as the biggest threat of all time. And now you're potentially married to an addict."
— Natasha Helfer ([25:10])

How These Dynamics Led to Abuse

• Vulnerability and Indoctrination
  • Franke and Hildebrandt’s partnership was enabled by their shared extremism and desire for influence ([27:58-28:48]).
  • Both manipulated language—claiming to purge "evil" and "distortion" in children—to justify escalating forms of punishment ([32:05-38:49]).

"This doesn't usually happen overnight... If you put [the frogs] in the pot and then you, you know, warm it up and warm it up...they kind of stop noticing and they die."
— Natasha Helfer on indoctrination's slow impact [32:07]

• Pleasure in Righteous Cruelty
  • The capacity for cruelty is amplified when one feels divinely justified:

"I think that a lot of us can find pleasure when we feel justified. When we feel justified, we feel pleasure because we think we're in the right."
— Natasha Helfer [35:28]

• Bible and Abuse
  • Scriptural passages have long been weaponized to endorse physical discipline and psychological control ([37:18]).

Societal Implications & Hope for Change

• Systemic Issues: Religious Freedom vs. Child Protection

  • U.S. law privileges religious freedom to the extent that psychological abuse is rarely prosecutable ([49:22-53:09]).
  • Foster care and mandated reporting fail to address these deep patterns.

• Therapy and Breaking the Cycle

  • Most children remain in harmful systems and become the next generation of parents—breaking out is rare ([50:10-51:07]).
  • Deconstruction ("ex-doctrination") is a long process—help is most effective when individuals are already doubting or seeking change ([51:09-51:50]).

"My favorite work is when they've already kind of started that and then they come in for help."
— Natasha Helfer [51:09]

• Access and Prevention
  • It is difficult for those steeped in fundamentalist systems to reach therapists with neutral or secular training ([53:36-54:59]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Widespread Harm:
  "People are being harmed by Religiously biased, non trained, especially in the sexuality field, therapists. It's happening all over the place."
  — Natasha Helfer [08:24]

• On The Power of Indoctrination:
  "We actually have to really see this as like, there it makes sense. And if we're not careful, any of us are vulnerable to become an extreme example, right?"
  — Natasha Helfer [41:17]

• On the Distortion Doctrine:
  "They talk about distortion so much because, like, wow, are you all having some distorted thinking?"
  — Natasha Helfer [33:48]

• On Systemic Complicity:
  "We ignore big things that adults are doing to children, all under the guise of religious freedom."
  — Natasha Helfer [49:21]

• On Personal Experience of Shame:
  "I remember as a teenager...sneaking magazines into a bathroom and feeling such shame around it."
  — Jen Fessler [24:38]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:40] – Overview of the Ruby Franke/Jodi Hildebrandt child abuse case.
• [06:09] – Natasha’s experience with ex-clients of Hildebrandt.
• [07:02] – How religious bias in therapy is a widespread, systemic problem.
• [08:39] – Discussion of sexual shame in religious communities.
• [10:13] – The role of the Mormon Church in enabling harmful therapeutic practices.
• [17:48] – The gendered impact of sexual shame and pathologizing.
• [27:58] – How Franke and Hildebrandt enabled and manipulated each other.
• [32:07] – Indoctrination as a gradual process leading to extreme behavior.
• [35:28] – The psychological reward of feeling righteous while acting harmfully.
• [37:18] – How scripture is used to legitimize discipline and abuse.
• [49:21] – Societal tendency to protect adults over children under religious freedom.
• [51:07] – Breaking the cycle of indoctrination and trauma.
• [53:36] – Challenges in accessing unbiased therapy in fundamentalist communities.
• [55:32] – Closing acknowledgments and hope for trauma-informed future.

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Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, compassionate, occasionally irreverent, and always grounded in concern for survivors and a desire to shed light on systemic problems. Both Jen and Natasha repeatedly emphasize empathy, nuance, and the dangers of "othering" extreme cases.

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Takeaways

• Abuse by Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt was facilitated by a toxic blend of religious extremism, unregulated therapy, and cultural shame.
• These are not just "bad actors" but symptoms of broader cultural, religious, and regulatory failures.
• Healing is possible but often only begins when individuals are ready to critically examine their beliefs and seek new forms of support.
• The episode calls for stricter professional standards, trauma-informed religious communities, and greater protection for vulnerable children.

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If you want a deeper understanding of the intersections between faith, therapy, and manipulation—and why even "extreme" cases like this one are rooted in everyday systems of shame and power—this episode offers sobering insight and hope for better accountability.

Transcript

[Jen Fessler]

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Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week we are talking about a monster, or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gyllenhaal to

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[Interviewer/Host]

Hi you guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. I'm your host Jen Fessler and we are going in depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and and most binge true crime documentaries and docu series. And today we're diving into the Netflix documentary Evil Influencer the Jody Hildebrandt Story. This is a story that I remember hearing about and it was and is a horrific story about in my mind, crazy people, evil people. But we will get to that. Ruby Frankie was a well known parenting YouTuber. Behind the scenes, she had fallen under the influence of another evil person and in my humble opinion, Jody Hildebrandt, a therapist who preached extreme religious based beliefs teaching that children who misbehaved were evil, if you can imagine this, and needed to be punished. So in August 2023, one of Ruby's young sons escaped from Jody's home. It this scene in this documentary is so devastating. He was malnourished, he was injured, he was bound with duct tape on his wrists and his ankles and he ran over to a neighbor and I think he knocked on three neighbors doors and begged help. Finally, finally a man came out and, and helped him and called the police. And when they arrived, they went back to the house and found another child inside in a similarly horrific, disgusting condition. So what followed exposed a pattern of severe abuse hidden behind the language of discipline, faith and control. It is wild. Both women were arrested and later pleaded guilty to child abuse. And today I am speaking with licensed marriage and family therapist Natasha Helfer and who appears in the documentary and also overlapped in that same therapy community as Jody Hildebrandt saw a lot of her ex clients and hopefully she can make some of this make sense to me because it's still keeping me up at night. So you guys. Natasha. Hi Natasha. Before I ask you anything, I want to say that you know Sky Borgman. We've, we've interviewed her. That the brilliant sky, the director.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And she's, you know, she's huge. But she makes these choices and I assume you were having you on was one of them in terms of casting and what a great choice because I feel like without you, first of all it was, you know, terrifying and depressing and upsetting. But having your point of view was brilliant and in a way sort of just so helpful because how does this happen, right? This craziness. And our listeners, whether or not you guys have watched your. This is not something that you won't be able to follow because happily we're talking to Natasha who is a certified sex therapist and licensed marriage family therapist. Right. So you've spent decades on, on this.

[Jen Fessler]

Ah, 30 years in.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow.

[Jen Fessler]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Host]

We're gonna have to talk afterwards. Maybe we'll exchange numbers. I could use your help. Yeah, everyone can, right? But I feel like no one more than the people that had been through the nightmare that was Jody Hildebrandt.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so tell me. I, I was unclear. You met Jody. I know you have clients that, that left Jody and needed you just to help, you know, get through the trauma of, of Jody and what she was teaching. Had you ever met her?

[Jen Fessler]

I have never met her in person.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, lucky you.

[Jen Fessler]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

But in terms of hearing, you know, her clients or former clients, did. Did you have a lot of them? And again, a lot of this, you guys, it will be answered in the doc, but I could just talk about it forever, so. And did they have similar stories?

[Jen Fessler]

Yes, yes, I have. I've met with quite a few. I mean, I would say more than 15 or 20 clients personally that have been affected by her practices. And, and then anecdotally, just with other professionals and other colleagues of mine who have also, you know, had a lot of people coming after that kind of service is offered. And I think one of the things I want to say really clearly is that although Jody Hildebrandt definitely took it to an extreme that I don't think is as likely for as many professionals, I do consider her a bit of a dime a dozen. Problems in space.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow. Are you serious?

[Jen Fessler]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, we have like, Maurice Harker, who's running Sons of Helaman, that that site is still up, that hasn't been shut down by regulatory boards or the state of Utah. And I also come from a history of living in Witcha, Kansas for over a decade where it was very evangelical. So this is not just a Mormon problem. This is a conservative religious problem. Right. In regards to this porn panic that gets infiltrated by clergy members, usually, you know, prophets and bishops and priests and pastors and, you know, who are talking big, big consequence type stuff when it comes to people's sexuality and how they express their sexuality. And then Christian or religious or Mormon or Jewish or Catholic, you know, therapists who are not able to unwind their own religious bias fall into these kinds of narratives very, very readily. I mean, the porn addiction model is alive and well, especially in religious communities. And, and it's, it's a debunked model. It's not an effective model. It's not supported by any type of association that is, that has any weight in its association.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm relieved to hear you say that.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah. This isn't personally. Yeah, this is an extreme example that's happening on the regular. And people are being harmed by Religiously biased, non trained, especially in the sexuality field, therapists. It's happening all over the place.

[Interviewer/Host]

You know Natasha, I, I thought back to something that happened to me when I was young, which I'm not, this is not about me. But that really affected, I think for so many years my sexuality and it was nothing like a Jody Hildebrandt. It was just the shape, this shame based message that I got and once. So I can only imagine having. And I grew up Jewish and we didn't talk about a lot about this and certainly I've had my share of therapists and I never felt shamed by, by my sexuality but that happened once to me and I think it affected me and my sexuality for years and years and years. So I can only imagine having, you know, this kind of rhetoric thrown at you, this shame based rhetoric. It's just criminal. Which obviously she's in jail now, so you know.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah. Although it's not criminal, unfortunately.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. It feels criminal. Right, right.

[Jen Fessler]

It's not right to sexual shame people in a therapy type setting, very difficult. And even with the Supreme Court, you know, just recently talking about therapy speech as free speech instead of trained speech, you can see how that craft door open.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

For a lot of therapists to basically function from their own religious bias instead of their training, which are basic Training, basic ethics 101 in any type of therapy program is to leave your religious bias at the door.

[Interviewer/Host]

All bias. Right. You need to. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Which granted is impossible. I mean we are all biased individuals in some way or another. But there's a lot of work and ethical treatment that practitioners should be really, you know, thinking about their own positions, how they come forward and, and when these churches and, and the reason that a lot of these, the reason why Jody Hildebrandt could be as successful as she was is that she was supported indirectly by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints AKA the Mormon Church. Right. And I saw this also in the big kind of mega churches and evangelical Kansas. I saw it in the Lutheran and Catholic churches when I lived in Wisconsin and Michigan. And so it's, it's this idea that instead of really looking at our ethics and our regulatory boards to manage how we practice, we look at, to our religious leaders. And the Mormon Church in particular specifically looks for therapists who are not going to challenge their doctrine, their ideas. And when the church basically says you can't be homosexual, you can't be non monogamous, you can't be looking at porn, you can't be having premarital sex, you can't be masturbating.

[Interviewer/Host]

That is so.

[Jen Fessler]

That is Right. And then you've got therapists who are in their treatment plan saying things like working on not masturbating as part of the goal.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, my God.

[Jen Fessler]

Religious.

[Interviewer/Host]

So scary to walk around feeling such shame. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Of normal. Normal human sexual diversity issues. Right. And. And this is the. The challenge we have. And. And so I. I understand that Jody Hildebrandt brings a lot of, like, you know, awe and, like, wow. And I can't believe this happened. And it seems so extreme. But what I'm hoping, if people are listening to me is, like, if you come from any religious background, some of this happened to you too. Right. And this is much more common. Maybe we don't have marks on our hands and legs. Maybe we weren't strapped by duct tape like this. You know, this poor young person was. But all of us have been, in a lot of ways, spiritually and sexually abused psychologically. As far as feeling like we need to bypass our own identities and our own eroticism.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. You know, I think about friends I have that are Catholic or church, and I'm not. I'm not commenting on anybody's religion, believe me, but I just. You're reminding me of times that friends of mine have used, let's say, elders in the church as sort of therapists. Right. So I would think that that's. That's a little scary. Right. Like, I've been in therapy for so many years, and I feel no judgment and no bias. I mean, you're saying that therapists obviously have bias, but I don't feel that from my therapist. Just seems so contrary to everything that therapy tries to be, has been for me. So. Yeah. Tell me how you were. How you first realize that Jody was bad news. What were you hearing that was sort of common?

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah, I mean, I've. I've been involved in the Utah scene for most of my career, mainly because of my faith background. You know, I grew up.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's what I was about to. Thank you for saying that. I was about to ask you and our. Can I ask you something personal? I don't want to.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah, if I. If I'm uncomfortable, I'll let you know, but you can pass away. Okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, I should. You're a therapist. You would know when to set your boundaries. So. But my question is, where are you now? Did you. Is it called excommunicated or is it. Did you leave the Mormon Church? Are you still part of the Mormon Church?

[Jen Fessler]

No, I was formally excommunicated. In 2021, specifically for a lot of the sexual advocacy work that I was being very public about.

[Interviewer/Host]

How old were you? May I ask that?

[Jen Fessler]

So this is four years ago. I'm 53 now, so 49.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow, that's recent. So you were doing therapy for 30 years as a member of the Mormon Church. That is so. And still you were able to separate that out. That must have been very challenging.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah. And it's. It's a whole journey. You know, I. I started very young. I did not follow the classic Mormon timeline of getting married and having children. I did actually go to. I got my education and became a licensed therapist intentionally before I had children so that I would be able to be more flexible with the whole, you know, kind of directions that we get as women in the Mormon Church to stay at home with our children. It's kind of like seen as the ideal righteous thing to do instead of having a career. So that's a whole nother type of thing that's happening. Which is also interesting to see Jody Hildebrandt being a female, you know, and having the success that she had when a lot of times that's discouraged in the Mormon Church is not to be so career focused. Yeah. As a woman in particular. So anyways, I did that. So, yes, I'm like 23 years old, 25 years old, you know, becoming a little baby therapist and very entrenched in my own religious upbringing and belief system and loved my faith, you know, and found it very useful to me at the time. I mean, I didn't have a lot of critical thinking skills and at the time either. So then having to, you know, be confronted with people who did not fit my faith communities, values system, people who are having sex outside of marriage, gay people, trans people, women who wanted to be feminist, have their careers, but all within the. Primarily the Mormon community is where I, you know, saw 80 to 90% of my clients.

[Interviewer/Host]

I have to be careful because I could just grill you. Well, maybe grill, but, like, I just want to know more about you and your background and how that's a whole other. I feel like that's. That's. Maybe you'll come back for that because I find it absolutely fascinating. So I'm going to try to stick. Okay. Jody built, as, you know, a massive following. What. What was, you think her greatest tactic? What was the hook? How did she get so many people on the line for such madness?

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah, well, I, I think one of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Fighting guilt, maybe one of the things

[Jen Fessler]

that she did, which is really unethical, is to promise results that were aligned with church doctrine. Right. So if you think about how this, the pornography dilemma runs so deep in the Mormon psyche, first of all, we really expect people to fit in just a very, very tight box of what you're. What healthy or worthy sexuality can look like it almost impossible for anybody to actually be in there authentically.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

And so then you have all this erotic energy that's really kind of in a lot of ways castrated and a couple a lot many times doesn't know how to talk about sex, doesn't know how to have good sex, doesn't know how to have even the sexual language to negotiate their sexuality together. And pornography, erotic materials are very accessible and they're primarily used to for people to masturbate and when people are feeling lonely in their relationships or just libido discrepancies, erotic discrepancies. 500,000 reasons that are actually quite healthy for people to turn to solo sexuality, which, you know, AKA is masturbation. And so people will use erotic materials to masturbate. That's what most people are using pornography.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think that even now I have shame around it.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I have no and you know, I think about Ethan who is listeners you. I'm sure you've seen the doc but if not this sweet young man who was newly married and put through the wringer. I mean I even, I'm sorry. Not that it matters but like his face looks so, you know, you can almost see his, the shame. His face was so sweet and right Ethan. That was what I remember. And the shame in his when he was describing porn and the wife leaving him. It's was just heartbreaking.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Awful.

[Jen Fessler]

Right? And that's what these churches do. And again, I'm not trying to be anti religion. I, I, like I said, I, I've been religious my whole life until they kicked me out.

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[Interviewer/Host]

Do you still consider yourself Mormon? See, I can't help it. I can't help it. I'm sorry. I have to, like, try to talk about the doc.

[Jen Fessler]

No, that's okay. Myself as Mormon.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Jen Fessler]

Although they wouldn't want me to Identify that way. And although I wouldn't identify as a traditional, like, legalistic believer, I would say abstract in my beliefs. I've become much more spiritual than I would say, you know, following certain dogma.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

But there was a lot of spirituality that I found a value in my upbringing and that I've taken with me. So. Yeah, so. But, you know, when you talk about this young man, that was my experience as these really good people, like, really terrible. Trying to do their best. Trying to be the best dads or moms or, you know, church members and their volunteering their time and their.

[Interviewer/Host]

She took his daughter from him. Jody.

[Jen Fessler]

That's the best people.

[Interviewer/Host]

Disgusting.

[Jen Fessler]

And because of this inability for us to have any tolerance for solo sexuality, we cannot touch our own bodies. This is. This is Christianity. This is Judaism. This is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is it. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a religious Jew, but I guess that makes sense if

[Jen Fessler]

I think you go into the Orthodox.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

That's all of these religions.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

There is this inability to really be sexual with yourself. And your sexuality, I call it ownership model, is really trickled down into this. Everybody else owns your sexuality. God owns it. Your parents own it. Your religious leaders own it. Your future spouse, even if you haven't met them, own it. So then they can be mad if you had some premarital experiences because you were supposed to hold out for them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Sexuality instead of yourself. Right.

[Ana Navarro]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

Already sets everybody up for sexual failure, for erotic sexual failure, especially relationally, because if you can't be in touch with yourself, how in the heck are you supposed to be in touch with another person? So these communities are rife with sexual shame purity cultures, another term that's used a lot to basically contain people in containers that were never meant to be human containers. And therefore, everybody's failing. Everybody's failing.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Like, even as you're talking, I mean, I remember as a teenager, you know, sneaking magazines into a bathroom and feeling such shame around it. Right. Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

Asking a question. Yeah. Like, I can't ask that question. And so, yeah, that's what I was seeing so much, is that people, really great people, really great couples who otherwise are getting along pretty well or are, you know, parenting well, are doing, you know, they're doing their goals and they're going to church and they're having their families. But because pornography enters the picture.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

Now, especially in a heterosexual relationship, the woman is trained by the religion to see that as the biggest threat of all time. And now you're potentially married to an addict. You're married to somebody who's out of

[Interviewer/Host]

control, somebody deviant or like. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Person is a threat to your children, who's a threat to your family system, who's a threat to your marriage. And it's so gendered because oftentimes when I saw it that the woman was the one who was looking at pornography, the religious man didn't usually have such an issue with it. And it was actually a way, once we could talk about it, that they could actually enhance their eroticism. But when it fit this other gender norm, which is the husband is looking at, and it falls into this whole gendered war that we have about how men. And we do this outside of religion, too, right. We talk about men in some really horrible ways. And granted, sometimes men have. Have earned that reputation. But a lot of times, these really great, good men who are just trying to be good church members, husbands, fathers, and are really doing a great job are seen as perverse, objectifying, thinking only with their dicks, and so they feel awful. And then the woman is kind of propped up by the church as the righteous one. We've got to help her. We've got to, you know, keep her away from this horrible man who's doing these horrible, perverse things.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

And you can see then why Jody Hildebrandt had so much power, because it wasn't so much power. She tapped into the church's power.

[Interviewer/Host]

I would think that on opposite ends of the spectrum, you have tapped in the opposite way. Right. In the best way, into communities where this is so pervasive. I don't even know how you have time to sit down with me today. So I'm sure your phone does not stop ringing because just, you know, my own experience, which was nothing like this, but there is so much shame around. Around all of that. And, you know, I think about how Ruby, Frankie and her husband were so, like, open to Jody, and I don't know if that's the word, but they were so. I don't even know if it was susceptible because they were just horrible humans. And I'm sure that you as a therapist can say they weren't horrible humans. Maybe their back or however you see them, you know, set this up, but the misery they caused, the. The abuse that they practiced. And could Jody sort of see an in there was Jody, do you think? I. I feel like no, maybe you'll say no, but intrinsically evil. I hate her. So there's that after watching this, and that's not healthy either. I hate her, and I hate Rue because it's the kid thing. Right. That just.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

It kills you. So. But did you think that Jody saw something in Ruby that could be manipulated? I mean, I know that they wanted each other's followings, Right. Even their social media followings, and they used each other to create a business. But what was it that she maybe saw in Ruby that she thought she was like this? Will, this is perfect. This is. This is, you know, a great partner for me.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah, well, I would agree. I think that they were both very successful social media influencers. And anytime you can connect with another influencer, I mean, I do that as well. Well, you know, certainly inherently an evil thing, it's just kind of like a collaboration. But I do think that there was an intrinsic vulnerability there for both of them. You know, I do think, although I agree with you, that these actions were evil. I don't, you know, I don't have an evil meter for people.

[Interviewer/Host]

I know. And I shouldn't. I'm trying.

[Jen Fessler]

Well, and it's okay. But I think what happened, we see this all the time and it's so much easier to see it and another person's religious upbringing. Right. So when, when 911 happens for, for example, we're all like, well, look at all these SC that the Islamic people have about destruction. But we have those in the Bible too, you know, and we. So it's harder to look at your own people, your own community, your own group, and it's easier to other. All the other people. But these vulnerabilities are very common. Right. So for Jody to be. To. To see herself as a therapist who is. I'm not going to follow exactly what the therapy community wants because I know better, because my church is telling me that I know better. And the way, not the therapy way is not the way the church way is the way to be the therapist.

[Interviewer/Host]

But does the Mormon church. But the violence look okay? So, so the fact that she was able to, it's. It feels like they were partnered up in the abuse. So again, listeners who have seen the doc, you're probably. If they haven't know the story, but they. It feels like they Together, Right. So Ruby and Jody abused these children. And you guys, when you watch or if you watch it, it's so hard, it's so hard to see that poor little boy knocking on that door, emaciated and with his wristband. But my, my question is that doesn't feel like it's a Mormon thing. Like that level of abusing children is not a religious thing. I mean, they found each other and they were both capable of these heinous acts. Do you think they saw something in

[Jen Fessler]

each other more complicated than seeing it in each other? And although I would agree, I don't think that the Pope or the prophet or any, you know, major leader would say, yes, it's okay to abuse children physically. Boy is boy. Are they role modeling psychological abuse. They are role modeling psychological abuse. The churches that basically say, you're evil, you're pernicious, you're perverse, if you're gay, if you're trans, if you're premarital sex person, they use very provocative, horrific language that, as you say, just one time in a space that downloaded for you in a way that you had to, you know, work through that and that only once. And we are growing up in churches hearing this kind of stuff on the weekly basis.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. They both grew up Mormon. Right. Both Jody and Ruby. And so they had. There was already an indoctrination. But tell me how you think, like, okay, so this is what you're going to do, Ruby, or this is what we're going to do, Jody. We're going to tie them. We're going to tie our children up and we're going to starve them and we're going to torture them. There's. Where is God? How do you, how did they, how did they justify it? Like, to me, Ruby and Jody, again, I know people aren't evil, their acts were evil, but how did they make that okay? Like, I look at these women like, you must know that this is abuse, right? I, I can't imagine that this is church based, that any part of the Mormon Church condones, you know, tying your kids up with duct tape and torturing them.

[Jen Fessler]

Not.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

The reason why I place the blame on the churches and not just the Mormon Church as well as the individuals is because this doesn't usually happen overnight. This is kind of like the classic metaph of the, you know, if you're going to boil frogs, if you put them in super hot water, they're going to jump right out. But if you put them in the pot and then you, you know, warm it up and warm it up and warm it up, they kind of stop noticing and they die. And so that, that's a, that's a pretty good metaphor for, I think, what happens for any religious fanatics. You know, whether it's people, you know, we have, you know, we have the day bells, we have. And not just the Mormons. And we have all kinds of issues that are in these religious communities that obviously the, the religious community is going to go, oh, they're an outlier. They're an outlier. And they are. They are outliers at the same time. They wouldn't have become those outliers without some of this foundational indoctrination.

[Interviewer/Host]

Or was it something in them that. Was that something in, let's say, Ruby? How not? I don't almost. I can't imagine. I think it's a very teeny tiny percentage, I hope, of mothers capable of that. I'm not saying they don't exist, they obviously do. But what was it in her? It. Do you think it was just the Mormon indoctrination or trying to please Jody? Or was there something in her that was getting off on torturing these poor children and Jody as well? Like the violence of it all, Even with everything that they had been taught, you know, how did that become okay? How does a mother get to that point? What was it inside of her that made that okay or didn't, you know, didn't stop her?

[Jen Fessler]

Well, I do think that all of us have the capacity for good and all of us have the capacity for evil. And I don't think in the moment, if you would have asked her, are you being evil? I think she would have had some type of. And it's so interesting that they talk about distortion so much because, like, wow, are you all having some distorted thinking? Right, right. It is distorted thinking and you kind of have it make sense. This is psychologically, like we know through group think studies, the Stanford study with the people who were incarcerated, you know, the students, they turned on each other within days. So we know that we as humans have capacity for evil if we feel justified somehow.

[Interviewer/Host]

But do you think that it was that, that they felt justified or that they were again, like, they have that, like they were almost enjoying it? Because I remember before we delved in, in terms of the doc, I remember watching Ruby sitting in front of her little girl and wanting to cut off the head of the stuffed animal. Right. She was. She had already had this reputation for, you know, hard parenting. And that was a turnoff for me just even watching it. But there's this, this, this again, I don't. I don't know what word to use. Help me, Natasha. But this ability for a mother to do that feels to me like there's something wrong in there, out above and beyond what the religious religion has taught her. To be able to stomach hurting your children feels like it had to come from. Also, I don't know if it was her upbringing or, or you Know something else. Do you think it's something else? Do you think it's.

[Jen Fessler]

I think that a lot of us can find pleasure when we feel justified. When we feel justified.

[Interviewer/Host]

How scary.

[Jen Fessler]

We feel pleasure because we think we're in the right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Like the devil. Did she think the devil was in them, you think?

[Jen Fessler]

Oh, yeah, she basically would say those things, right?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, I know she would.

[Jen Fessler]

And so when she's, when she's threatening her children and this is giving her a lot of credit, which I don't really want to do either because I think they absolutely need to be held responsible regardless of the indoctrination. Indoctrination does not give you issue an excuse to be evil. Right. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

Accountable for those reasons. But yes, I do think that when you have this mindset that what really matters. What really matters, Jennifer, is that we all make it to the celestial kingdom or heaven or whatever that thing that's really, that's where the most of our, our existence is going to be is in the afterlife. You can justify a lot in the short amount of mortal life to make sure you get there.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

And, and I, I mean, if we're gonna, if we're gonna get really kind of dark, I mean, I've known of people like for example, in the Mormon Church, we have this doctrine about the age of accountability. It's at 8. 8 years old. At 8 years old, you become accountable for your actions. Before that you're seen as innocent. And there are stories again, outliers. And the Mormon Church would never say you should do this, but there are people who will kill their children and kill themselves when their children are coming to that age of eight because they're like, well, I would rather just be done with this life now and save my innocent child as they are and let them get to heaven before they turn this age of accountability so that then we made it in the real, in the real existence that really matters.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

When you think of that psychologically, you can just by all kinds of horrific things. And the Bible in of itself has the whole, you know, spare the rod, spoil the child scripture. And I, that was very much in my evangelical world with all my evangelical neighbors that was talked about a lot. And that's how, you know, beatings are justified, spankings. And then of course the psychological abuse, Right. Of like, you're going to go to hell. I mean, this is where I'd like for people to pause for a minute. It Is it psychologically healthy? And many of us do this. Many of us who are like, just shocked that they would tie these kids up. But many of us are teaching our young, impressionable children that they have two voyeurs that are constantly watching them, God and Satan. We're just teaching them that as a reality. And for a little brain that already starts you in a space where you have no privacy because God can always know what you're thinking. Satan is always trying to tempt you horrible things. So you're walking the world already feeling like you're completely all always exposed. Wow, that's psychologically abusive.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes, it most certainly is to a little child.

[Jen Fessler]

But all. Would we see ourselves as psychologically abusive? No. Does it give us pleasure to teach our children about God and Jesus and Satan and all those things? Things, yeah, because we think we're doing something for their best behalf.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I remember Jody saying when she was being brought to prison that she thought that it was still like a journey, God's journey. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

It was part of the trials. This is that when they're held accountable, when they're really forced to look at what they're doing and they can't shift gears because, you know, it's very hard to change your mind about things. Very, very challenging to do that. Them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think she has now. Now that she's.

[Jen Fessler]

I doubt. I. I really doubt it. I think that they feel very justified. This is part of their trial. People don't really understand. This is also a very common theme in religion and religious stories is the. The martyr, the person who's, you know, everybody makes fun of because what they're saying, which is all this kind of supernatural things, people are treating them like they're crazy. Right. And all the prophets that are in the Bible were treated kind of like they were crazy by the wider population.

[Interviewer/Host]

God.

[Jen Fessler]

Religious people are like, well, see, they were really. They were martyrs and nobody understood them. And God's ways are not the world's ways. And so you can justify.

[Interviewer/Host]

But Natasha, we watch this, I watched this and I. I see it makes complete sense. Everything you're saying, I get. It's just that piece of it that, you know, we all come from, let's say being having some shame around sexuality. I've been through lots of bad things like most of us have. I'm 57 years old, but I still look at this and it feels like, was she make not make more sense to me if, like, was Jody abused as a child? Was Ruby. Because I know that cycle can repeat itself. I get that they were coming from a place where they really believed in what they were doing. Right. And when you say that they want to get accepted into eternity and heaven or whatever that that looks like in the Mormon religion. I understand that. But please tell me that most Mormons even being taught that there was something different about Jody and something different about Ruby.

[Jen Fessler]

Yes. I would say that they are extreme cases. They are the extreme. And I guess what I'm trying to get across as well, we can all ooh and ah about the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

And be like, oh my gosh, none of us would never do that. That's so horrific. Because now it's. It's comfortable to other them and not to see ourselves in them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

We're so horrible. And what I'm trying to invite everybody to do is actually let's not hold them so separate because when you do that, you have more of a chance of becoming them. So you. We actually have really this as like there, there. It makes sense. And if we're not careful, any of us.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Vulnerable to become an extreme example. Right. Especially of an indoctrinated type of space where there isn't a lot of critical thinking. That's right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

A lot of conformity that's encouraged. It's a lot of leaders and by

[Interviewer/Host]

the way, I'm sorry, but also a lot of money involved and a lot of money.

[Jen Fessler]

And I don't think that most people would turn into the Rubies and Jody's. But I do think what is happening so much that I would say it's happening ridiculously so much is that people are turning into the Ethans and Yeah. Because they are. They're trying to do what's right. They've got these people that seem to have authority, that seem to have expertise, that are backed by the church. Right. I mean, like when I'm excommunicated, do you think a bishop is going to refer to me? They're going to look me up and be like, oh, she's not. She wouldn't be a good influence on our church.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of course.

[Jen Fessler]

Right. Hildebrandt. Oh, yeah. She thinks pornography is really bad. And she's. She's going to take an addiction model approach and she's going to, you know, take an approach.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

You know, meets.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Kind of our belief system. So, yes. And she was. This is where her success started was by. With tons of referrals from the Mormon Church to her instead of to practitioners who are either not LDs or who are LDs, progressive and are not falling for these, you know, quack, quack, alternative types of, you know, sources that are not even evidence based.

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[Interviewer/Host]

I remember when Jody was arrested and she was being taken to jail, and she said, don't let the kids around other kids. Don't let these kids around other kids. And I thought that was one moment where I thought, wow, she really believes this shit. Like, she believes that these children are evil. And so. Right. That was because for me, that was the disconnect. And I. I agree with you. I see how what you're saying and that people, if they are. They're evil. They're evil. You said that you're othering them. It feels like it's far away. And it can happen. It can happen maybe to any of us, but I hope not. But. But that sort of, like, surprised me and that she really fucking believes that what she's doing is right. This crazy person. And it was hard. That's hard. That's a hard pill to swallow. Like, I hate the idea that they're in jail thinking that they're noble. Like, I really hope that they are in jail. Looking at what they did with deep and utter regret and remorse. Do you think that they are?

[Jen Fessler]

I. From what I can tell, I mean, you know, I have not interviewed these people. I can't say anything with great, you know, I guess, confidence, but.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

From what I saw in the post interviews, it seemed like maybe there was more hope of that for Ruby, but

[Interviewer/Host]

it did not really.

[Jen Fessler]

Like, Jody was. Was moving in that direction.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow.

[Jen Fessler]

You can see the history there.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right?

[Jen Fessler]

I mean, they interview her niece that goes to live with her because. Right. And because she probably masturbated. I forget what she did she did.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Wrong.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Her little Mormon community, which, again, it doesn't take much, you know, smoke one joint or you get caught looking at porn, or you have a boyfriend that, you know, you're heavy petting with, and all of a sudden the whole community is up in arms that were about to lose this child to. To Satan or something, and so they sent her over to Jody to help raise her. Right. Extremely abusive. And this is another problem that is systemic. Systemic that I don't want us to look away by just saying, oh, these extreme examples. We protect Adults over children in our country, 100%, including this whole religious freedom thing. Right. We allow parents to teach and to be quite cruel in their parenting styles because of religious freedom. So she. She went forward, right. This niece came forward and. And reported, and the community did not believe.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

Right. This is a yes. And this is what we do to children. Oh, you're not. You're not smart enough. You're not wise enough. You're. You're just causing. You just want attention. And we ignore big things that adults are doing to children, all under the guise of religious freedom.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's it. Well, tell me this. How did these kids get to the place where her niece was? So in other words, now this has happened to him, this horror show. They've grown up in this horror show, for lack of a better term. And now how do they all. How hard is it for you? And I don't know if you see children as well or young adults to get to a place like Jody's niece. And she's free now, it sounds like. I hope so. I hope that she feels fulfilled and happy and healthy. But how do the kids get past this?

[Jen Fessler]

The reality is that most kids are not going to do what the niece did. Right. The reality is that kids stay in the systems they're raised in, and then they become the next parents in that system for the next kids. I mean, that's the reality of most communities. And it doesn't even have to be religious community, any community, political communities. You know, if you're raised by Democrats, you're probably gonna be a Democrat. If you're raised by Republicans, you're probably gonna be a Republican. Some people shift and make those changes, but the majority don't. And so these kids usually turn into the next. The next parents who raise their kids in this religious community as well.

[Interviewer/Host]

You have an uphill battle, my friend. You chose.

[Jen Fessler]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, I don't know how you. How do you get these. These people that have been doctrinated, indoctrinated to get. What is the word? Ex. Doctrinated. I don't even know. How do you. How do you get these messages out of their heads, especially the kids?

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah. Very challenging.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

My favorite work is when they've already kind of started that and then they come in for help.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Religious trauma work. We're doing sexual shame work. We're doing, you know, all kinds of things because they're already in that space of wanting to deconstruct. But when I'm working with believers who, you know, I. I also want to respect their values and their beliefs. And you know, I, I'm not there to destroy their, their religious belief system. I'm there to help them with their, with their val. With what their goals are at the same time, if they want sexual health, if that's part of their goals. But they're so limited in the tools that I can offer them because that goes against their values or their religion.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

It's like hitting a wall.

[Interviewer/Host]

But Natasha, what do you do when you know that it's crossed over, let's say for a parent into an abusive situation? I don't know how many parents go, you, you deal with that, you know, in terms of the Mormon church. But in any. What do you do when you find out that the parents are, you know, abusing their kids? And I would think that that would come out during therapy or maybe not.

[Jen Fessler]

People are pretty protective, including kids. Kids understand that if they say certain things it may be the end of their family unit as they know it. And of course I'm a mandated reporter and so sexual and abuse are very, you have to report and I have to report.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, of course.

[Jen Fessler]

And psychological abuse is not reportable and they're not going to really do anything about it. And I think if we went down that road, you know, we already have a foster care system that is, is not run well and that is, you know, busting at the seams. And so psychological abuse will remain, I think something that we just all have to kind of deal with. So then my options are to try to, you know, carefully, non judgmentally question and, and hopefully get some self awareness going of how some of these tactics may be impacting their children in ways they don't realize.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think you could have helped someone like Ruby before it got to the point that it did? Do you think therapy I won't use. Let's not. But do you think that there was help out there? Could, could it have gone differently if she had been in therapy like with someone like you? I mean obviously she never was. But can you help those people that are about to become extreme?

[Jen Fessler]

Well, I, I think so.

[Interviewer/Host]

I guess you have to believe that that's, this is what you do. Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

I think though the problem is that, that it's hard for somebody like Ruby to have access to somebody like me because she's already. It's any religion, people are going to vary widely. You're going to have really orthodox people in the same religion as you have very progressive people in the same religion. Right. To me like she was a bit more on the orthodox side of things.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

Even raised more orthodox. So that's all right. A challenge. And a lot of these churches, I mean even the Mormon church has a history of saying, you know, the field of psychiatry is, is like an enemy to us. I mean that was a long time ago that they were saying things like that. Like in the 1950s or 60s. We do have history and I see that a lot in Christianity, especially in the more conservative religions. It's like the pastors will actually make you doubt mental health practices. You know, they'll downplay.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

Or you just need to pray harder. You just need to be more righteous. You just need to get good with God and God save you from depress depression, you know.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

And when that, that's not how depression works.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right, right. I, yeah.

[Jen Fessler]

People are left to think, well, it's still me. It's never the church is wrong. I must not be doing something right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

And it's a self blame.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

And looking for more and more people. And then there's that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

Bias. You're going to go to a religious therapist who shares your own views and beliefs and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

They may not be, you know, watching their own biases and giving kind of non evidence based, non effective treatment. So she would have earlier on come to somebody like me that was more, you know, just evidence.

[Interviewer/Host]

You would have had it. She maybe would have had a chance. Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Yeah, I think so.

[Interviewer/Host]

I hope, I, I hope that that's true. More people do come to you. So Natasha, I cannot thank you enough for joining us, you guys. You have to see this documentary and you are the, you were the one easy part to watch in it because it was very hard to watch. Very sick.

[Jen Fessler]

It's very dark.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes, they are. Your community is lucky to have you

[Jen Fessler]

so, and like me, you know, I, I work with amazing colleagues. I run a group practice, imagery counseling. We have amazing people able to work in that intersection religious trauma, but also holding space for people's religious beliefs, if that's right. Matters to them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Jen Fessler]

Hopefully churches can become more and more trauma informed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Jen Fessler]

And be able to do the work to educate their, you know, their parishioners on what good mental health looks like and good mental health treatment and good sexual health. So we've got a long way to go in our church.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes. Amen. Natasha, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you. Please come back.

[Jen Fessler]

Oh, I will have you back.

[Interviewer/Host]

Bye. Thank you.

[Jen Fessler]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.