Killer Thriller Docu: Skylar Neese murdered by her best friends

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present

Killer Thriller Docu: Skylar Neese Murdered by Her Best Friends

Special Guest: Claire Titley, Director of Hulu’s “Friends Like These: The Skylar Neese Murder”

Release Date: March 28, 2026
Host: Jennifer Fessler
Transcript Time Range: [03:32–56:56]

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the making and emotional aftermath of the Hulu documentary “Friends Like These: The Skylar Neese Murder,” exploring the brutal 2012 murder of 16-year-old Skylar Neese by her closest friends in West Virginia. Host Jennifer Fessler speaks with the series’ director, Claire Titley, about the haunting case, the creative approach behind the docuseries, the trauma left in the community, and the persistent, unanswerable question: how could such an act come from teenage girls so close to the victim?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Documentary Approach & Emotional Weight

• Introducing the Story:
  • Skylar Neese vanished from her home on July 6, 2012. As the community rallied to find her, suspicion turned toward her best friends, Sheila and Rachel, unearthing devastating secrets ([03:32–04:50]).
• Director’s Perspective:
  • Claire Titley shares the emotional toll of the project:
    • “As a documentary filmmaker, you have to absorb a lot of this... it is hard.” ([05:12] Claire)
    • Despite prior experience with heavy subjects (9/11, world wars), this story—the violence among children—was uniquely harrowing.

Teen Friendships, Identity, and Horror

• The Teenage Lens:
  • The film intentionally immerses viewers in the teenage world—using a “cutesy, teenagery” color palette, high school locations, and a soundtrack of 2012 pop to drive home the normalcy before tragedy ([09:37–11:28]).
    • “We wanted to really put the audience in the place of the teenagers, of her friends... To get into this world, which is why we made a lot of creative decisions.” ([09:37] Claire)
• Relatability and Humanity:
  • Fessler and Titley repeatedly return to the uncomfortable realization: these girls could have been anyone’s friends or daughters.
    • “Watching this young girl, and seeing my own daughter...” ([07:00] Jennifer)
    • “The brilliance of this documentary is that it is so familiar.” ([11:07] Jennifer)
    • “They felt, you felt their heartache.” ([12:04] Jennifer)

Access, Authenticity, and Unheard Evidence

• Material Sourcing:
  • Every post or diary entry featured—in Skylar’s authentic voice—was verified, including content gleaned from her social media and the police-acquired diary of Rachel ([15:04–16:26]).
    • “Everything that she reads… is truthfully what she said… And the same for Rachel and Sheila as well.” ([15:33] Claire)
• Parental Involvement:
  • Skylar’s parents, Dave and Mary, were directly involved in verifying their daughter’s voice. They continue to live near Morgantown and remain together, a point of admiration for Titley ([17:22–18:26]).

Friendship, Betrayal, and the Struggle to Find Answers

• Complex Dynamics:

  • The murder is reframed in terms of intense, “love affair”-like teen friendships, blending relatability with horror ([13:33–14:10]).
  • Social media, new in 2012, played a critical role in the dynamics and confusion both for adults and law enforcement ([45:54–46:47]).

• Why Did It Happen?

  • Repeated attempts to find answers—drug influence, sexuality, family backgrounds—produce no simple solution.

    • “It’s so easy to see things in hindsight... Those girls, I think, were running rings around the police.” ([48:07] Claire)
    • “I think it always does [affect you]... I don’t think there are any easy answers to this story, which is part of the reason why I’m really drawn to it.” ([50:46] Claire)

The Legal Aftermath and Unresolved Motives

• Rachel and Sheila’s Convictions:

  • Rachel received a shorter sentence (and is due for release soon) after cooperating.
    • “If you confess, you own the narrative, don’t you?” ([28:09] Claire)
  • The lack of a trial means the “why” remains forever opaque.
    • “Because there was no trial, there’s no investigation of the why. So nobody ever asked that.” ([40:43] Claire)

• Are they “born evil”?

  • Titley pushes back against simplistic readings:
    • “Somebody once said there’s no such thing as an evil person, but just evil people can do evil things.” ([41:55] Claire)
    • She highlights that adolescent brains lack a sense of consequences, but cannot reconcile the sheer brutality either.

Community Impact and Lasting Trauma

• Wider Fallout:
  • The ripple effect on friends, suspects, and parents is discussed, with notable empathy for those falsely accused and for Rachel’s heartbroken, conflicted family ([24:41–25:06]; [53:25–54:15]).

Parenting, Prevention, and the Limits of Lessons

• Is there anything parents can learn?
  • Titley emphasizes that no clear red flags emerge, and this was “a unique set of circumstances,” but openness and communication are crucial ([45:54–46:47]).

Lighting a New Path in True Crime

• A New Documentary Approach:
  • Titley intentionally avoided the true crime template—her focus: “How do we give Skylar’s voice back?” and “make the audience understand what it was like to be her and her friends” ([55:30–56:41]).
    • “We were making a story about Skylar Neese and her disappearance and her story—not just a crime to solve.” ([55:30] Claire)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the unique horror of this case:
  • “There’s something quite harrowing when you remember what it was like to be that age… and this happened to somebody who sat on the desk next to them.”
    ([06:19] Claire Titley)
• On the challenge of coping as a filmmaker:
  • “I think it always does [affect you]... something always stays with you.”
    ([50:46] Claire Titley)
• On the lack of a final answer:
  • “There are no answers. That’s what is. You can ponder that. And I have been since watching it.”
    ([52:38] Jennifer Fessler)
• On giving Skylar her voice:
  • “The starting point was: how do we get Skylar’s voice through this? How can we give her a voice back… understand what it was like to be her and her friends back then?”
    ([55:30] Claire Titley)
• On the humanity even in horror:
  • “You have to show the heartbreak… to understand that, in order to understand the heartbreak that Skylar went through.”
    ([53:15] Claire Titley)
• On parenting after tragedy:
  • “They are still good parents even though their child isn’t here. I still feel like they’re still parenting in some form… It’s kind of redefined my ideas of parenting.”
    ([17:46–18:04] Claire Titley)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Background of the documentary approach: [05:52–10:51]
• Discussion of Skylar’s friends today & the emotional resonance: [08:00–12:19]
• Material and authenticity/voice acting: [15:04–16:41]
• Rachel and Sheila’s confessions, motives, and legal morass: [25:29–29:08]; [40:43–43:23]
• Director’s thoughts on “evil” and teenage impulsivity: [41:55–44:09]
• Parenting, prevention, and social media’s role: [45:54–48:07]
• Police investigation and gendered insights: [47:16–49:13]
• Impact on Skylar’s parents & the community: [17:22–18:26]; [53:25–54:15]
• Lasting emotional impact on the filmmaker: [50:46–52:38]
• Titley’s next projects and approach: [55:06–56:41]

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Final Thoughts

The episode masterfully explores layers of tragedy, psychology, and ethics at the heart of this notorious case—eschewing pat answers for a nuanced, empathic portrait of those touched by violence. If you haven’t seen the documentary or followed the Skylar Neese story closely, this conversation provides a haunting, accessible entry point, centering the victim’s voice without losing sight of the complexities that make the story unforgettable.

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Transcript

[Jennifer Fessler]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot.

[Jennifer Fessler]

No, the Wells Fargo active cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com active cash terms apply. Hi guys. This is the killer thriller docu edition. I am your host Jen Fessler and as a matter of fact, this is my first episode. And we are going in depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and most binge true crime documentaries and docuseries. We are beginning with a big one. This is the new Hulu documentary Friends like these. The skylar Neese murder. 16 year old Skylar Neese vanished from her West Virginia home on July 6, 2012. Her family and community are thrown into turmoil as the search for answers intensifies. Police then turn their attention towards Skyler's best friends, Sheila and Rachel. Uncovering secrets, betrayal and identity. And I will tell you all, we're talking about murder and we're talking about 16 year olds, actually 15 and 16. And we're talking about something that happened in 2012. It's fascinating. And today I have the absolute pleasure of talking with the director of this documentary, Claire Titley. So let's jump right in. Hi, Claire.

[Claire Titley]

Hi, Jennifer. Lovely to meet you.

[Jennifer Fessler]

So nice to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. So I have to just ask you this right off the bat, like, are you okay? Are you okay? Because I'm not.

[Claire Titley]

I know. I think it's one of those things as a documentary filmmaker that you have to absorb a lot of this in that thing. But it is, it is hard. It's It's. It's hard.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I mean, it's one of the questions. One of the many, many questions that I have is just how. How do you get through and compartmentalize. And I read, you know, your bio, and obviously this is not your first rodeo. You've been a professional and you've won awards and at bafta, and I know that. So you're a professional. But even with that, this was so terrifying, upsetting. Kudos to you. Gripping. I can't. I'm still trying to process it, you know.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah, no, thank you. And I think the thing is, I think particularly, I would say kind of like if you've got. If you've got daughters or whatever, but actually, quite frankly, if you've ever been a. If you've ever been a teenage girl, if you've ever been a teenager, I think it kind of like rings. I think it rings. I say rings true. There's something quite harrowing when you remember when you kind of take into that world and you remember what it was like, you know, to be. To be that age. And I think that that, for me was the thing that kind of

[Jennifer Fessler]

really

[Claire Titley]

hooked me into it. Yes. And the thing that we wanted to concentrate on was kind of like that side of it and. And come at it from that particular angle. But it's also the reason why I think it is so harrowing, this story. I've made a lot of films in the past before. I've made a lot of films about 9, 11, a lot of films about first and Second World War. And I've interviewed veterans and. And people have experienced with that. But there's something about these. I say teenagers, they're not teenagers anymore, but the. But the Friends of Skyler, that is so. They're so traumatized because this thing happened to them when they were so young and it happened to somebody who sat on the desk next to them.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

And they were. And there's something about that that has changed them all forever.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes. So much of that is what was on my mind. The way, first of all, the depiction of it, the way you zoomed in on things. For instance, she had these magnets Skylar did up on her door, the spelling Skyler. And I don't know, you know, it's hard to know. I don't know how much of this. It's obviously a documentary. Those were actually there because I've. Those magnets were on my fridge. My kids used to come and play with those types of magnets, you know, with the numbers and the letters and even just that Detail was so chilling because you did such a beautiful job of us as a viewer, being able to look at this young girl and see my own daughter, kids at that age. My daughter's now 23. Really? Not so long ago, high school, but yeah. And. And especially with the friend. So I guess now they're what, like, 30?

[Claire Titley]

Yeah, they would have. Skylar would have turned 30 just a few weeks ago. So they'll all be around that age, 28 to 32. That sort of age is what age they are.

[Jennifer Fessler]

So. And, like, hearing them tell the story from their vantage point was just fascinating. I mean, it's hard to use words. I feel like, for me, it's hard to use positive words to describe. Was the most gripping documentary and brilliant. And if you haven't seen it, I am telling you, I beg of you to watch it. It is so insightful and heartfelt and all of that, but it's sick. It's sick. It's. These women, these women, these girls were. Were monsters. And watching someone like, let's say, Daniel, who was so sweet and watching how, you know, he talked about how he at one point lost it. Right. And spoke up and couldn't help himself. Right. And watching him now and thinking, I was thinking to myself, the toll that this must have taken on the lives of the kids around them.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah. And that's the thing, the key thing that you say that they were girls. They were kind of like, that's. That's the scary thing about this. And they are. So you forget the teenage brain is. So. It's still being formed, you know, And. And I mean, teenagers make stupid decisions and they make kind of, you know, bad choices. But obviously this was. This is kind of like on another level, but it. But I think that is one of the things that always stayed with me. And it was something that we really wanted the audience to feel.

[Jennifer Fessler]

You did. Yes. Yes, you did. You were able to humanize them. Because I want.

[Claire Titley]

But it was. It was about putting the audience. We were very, very keen to put the audience in the place of the teenagers of her friends. It's, It's. It's very easy, but. But to make a series from the perspective of, you know, armchair kind of sleuth or whatever it is. And you are, to an extent, trying to solve the murder a lot, you know, along alongside you, solve the Silver disappearance alongside the police. But we. We knew that it would hit home harder and actually kind of understand the motive or lack of motive more if you could get into this world. Which is why we made. We Made a lot of decisions about even just, like, the color palette. We kind of made it. It is kind of purposefully cutesy and teenagery and. And we kind of tried to. We've shot them all. It's not actually their. Their school, but we shot them all in. In a school. We kind of. We made sure that it had this teenage palette.

[Jennifer Fessler]

All American. It looks like. It looks like where my kids went to high school.

[Claire Titley]

And it's kind of drawn from films like eighth grade, like, was a big influence in that way. And, you know, all. All those kind of films, I mean, weirdly, kind of probably ended up watching more teen movies than. Than True Crime in order to try and get influence.

[Jennifer Fessler]

You did a brilliant job of that because that's. That's. I think, part of what was so very gripping. It was so familiar. You created the world, this world, you know, you have the. I don't even know. I still haven't processed, if I'm being honest, like, how to feel about these children and what they did. It's keeping me up at night. Thanks a lot. But I will tell you that the brilliance of this documentary is that it is so familiar. And the color palette, whatever it is, that means, whatever it is that you chose resonates. Right.

[Claire Titley]

And the composer. The composer did a brilliant job as well, of this, like, amazing score that you hopefully don't notice to an extent, but of trying to. She was listening to so much music from 2012 that teenagers were listening to try and kind of, like, thread that through so that you got this real, you know, and it. And it twists and becomes darker, but so that you get that real feeling of, like. Of being. Of being there, of being that age again, which is one sometimes why I keep referring to Skylar's friends as teenagers, even though they're all 28, 29. That's what we were trying to do and. And get them into that world and remember what it was like before she went missing.

[Jennifer Fessler]

They still seem very young to me. I don't know if that's about me being old or if it's about the fact that they actually have just seem so vulnerable. Those. These kids are now, again, like, 28 to 30. I mean, I guess they're not kids anymore, but they felt. You felt their heartache.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Getting emotional, thinking, talking about it. They were just incredible. You know, it's hard because I said to my producers before we started, like, I don't want to give away spoilers for people that haven't seen it. On the other hand, it's not It's a public story. On the other hand, I think that our listeners probably have already seen it and are so excited just to talk to you. It's like I'm walking a tightrope here. I don't want to give it away, but at this, I don't think it really matters because the way that this. It was. So even if you know what happens at the end, it. This was the most fascinating documentary because. Well, I think because of all of the components. Because of the fact that they were so young, because of the fact that it was so violent. Yeah, all of that. But just the way that you. Whatever magic that you worked, my friend, was. It was just incredible. And, you know, I feel like almost. I don't know if you had this, any of this, but as a viewer, I feel guilty. I enjoyed it so much. And then you think this is real. You know, you must have had a hard time compartmentalizing, I would think It's.

[Claire Titley]

I tell you, I tell you, one of the things that was kind of interesting about it was the fact that I was making it at the same time. I had a preteen, so when I started, she was a preteen.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right.

[Claire Titley]

And. And so I'd be reading the stories and, you know, reading the social media posts from these three girls to have this intense relationship. Skyler, Sheila and Rachel, who have this, you know, it's. It's like a love affair, their relationship. It's so intense that this. The trio, as they become kind of known by everybody. And reading these sort of tweets and things and. And little bits that Skyler had written every so often and. And then I'd come home sometimes and talk to my daughter. And you kind of have. Those friendship dynamics are kind of playing out. And I. Sure. Frightening when.

[Jennifer Fessler]

That's right. Yes, yes, absolutely. That is the thing, because it's. It is so familiar. I mean, this was so Mean Girls, the movie, right? Well, it. Obviously it wasn't, but we've all been there, haven't. Yes, we've all been there. Yes. I'm just gonna, like, start to just throw questions at you because I'm just so curious about. About so much of this. So first, did you ever try to get Rachel or Sheila or their parents? Well, I guess you'd have to go to prison, but to take part in this.

[Claire Titley]

We approached them several times, I'll bet, and. And their families as well, and. And we didn't get a response at all from them, which, you know, not really. In hindsight. In hindsight, I don't know whether I'm pleased or not about that. That's. Yeah. Complicated feelings.

[Jennifer Fessler]

The. The actress who was doing the voiceover work for Skyler read a lot of posts. I didn't know if that was just part of what you all put in or if those were actual posts from her or diary entries.

[Claire Titley]

Everything that she's. Everything that she reads. And she, by the way, was somebody who. We spent a long time casting actors. I mean, I was very clear that I was not going to be using AI for this or what, you know, is very clear on that. And we used as much of recordings of Skylar's voice as we possibly can. And we got Dave and Mary, her parents, to sign off on her voice, and they were very much involved in the casting process as well.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And that was actually. Those were Facebook and posts or Twitter posts or were they diary entries or all of that?

[Claire Titley]

There was a lot of stuff that she'd written that they shared with us. There was a lot of stuff that, you know, she'd handwritten that she'd shared with us. There were also a lot of. Some of them, I think, are tweets. And potentially. Potentially, there's some Facebook in there as well. But everything that's in there is stuff that she's. Is stuff that she's written that, like, we didn't make anything up. None of it is dramatized in that way. You know, everything. Everything is. Is. Is truthfully what she said. And the same for Rachel and. And Sheila as well. Because one of the things that we didn't realize when we started this series, that we would actually get hold of Rachel's diary, which is kind of insane, really. You know, how did you do that? That was through. I was gonna think, is it through the FBI or through the. You know, when a series comes out? It's been so long since the research.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes, of course, of course.

[Claire Titley]

I think. I believe it was through the police that we managed to get that.

[Jennifer Fessler]

It was amazing. I can't believe you. That was. See, because it's hard watching this, knowing that it's a documentary and still believing what you're watching. Right. And hearing. Yeah, it's just fascinating.

[Claire Titley]

We had. I mean, this wasn't a fast turnaround series. We had a lot. We spent a long time developing relationships, kind of like seeking evidence and things. And that's one of the reasons. And actually, it paid off because it took months and months and months for some of this evidence to kind of come to that hasn't been seen or heard in other podcasts or document I mean, there has been a lot done on this case in the past which I wasn't aware of even before I started.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I wasn't either.

[Claire Titley]

Not to this, not to this extent. I mean, the things, the materials we were able to uncover and the sting operation that there's. At one point there's a undercover sting that Rachel does with, with, with Sheila and.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Oh, I have questions about that. I have such questions about that. Wait, hold on. Okay. David and Mary Skyler's parents.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

How was that? That must have been very difficult. And how are they today? They're horrible. What a stupid question. They're, they're. And she was an only child, correct? Because I never saw any mention of.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah, yeah, she's, she's David, Mary's only child. And, and together. But they, they, they are in. I don't know. It's really hard to answer, isn't it? Kind of like, how are they? How are they?

[Jennifer Fessler]

I know it's a dumb question. Please forgive me, because how are they?

[Claire Titley]

It's there. They're in as good. You know, what I always kind of say to them is that I have a lot of admiration for them and it's kind of redefined my ideas of parenting. It's kind of the idea that they are still good parents even though their child isn't here. I still feel like they, you know, they're still parenting in some form.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

And they're. And they're brilliant people. And they are, they are a good friend.

[Jennifer Fessler]

They're still together. Are they still together?

[Claire Titley]

Together? And they're kind of. And they're still in Morgantown or just outside Morgantown. And the next time I go over there to that neck of the woods, I will be popping in and to go and see them and have a team. Yeah, I mean they're, they're. I have a lot of admiration for them.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Me. So do I.

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[Jennifer Fessler]

So Rachel's mom, one of the things that really struck me, right, was when the FBI, they were going to set up Sheila and have Rachel say, come over. And I watched as Rachel's mom said to her, I love you. You can do this. And I, I mean, I, I couldn't for whatever reason, you know, there are certain. It all struck me but this mother saying to this daughter, I love you. You can get your friend to come over, right? I know you want to throw up a little. And you, I love you. You could admit to stabbing your best friend and you could set up your other best friend. It was so familiar to. I love you. You can do this. I say that to my daughter all the time, you know, and it was, that just, that was like a, just a gut punch. Now, I also want to know from you, in terms of Sheila's. That was Sheila and. No, that was Rachel in terms of Rachel's parents. And a lot, there was a lot about how religious that they were and. But there was not a lot about the father. I did. I was wondering about a little bit more about him. And I know. And there was apparently when I think it was Daniel that talked about. They were in theater and the mother freaked out and I guess Rachel was freaking out and yelling about how she couldn't do something. And then her mom was like, get it together and was awful. And was she abusive? Is that it? Is that show? I mean, were the parents physically abusive? I wasn't quite sure.

[Claire Titley]

I have to be really careful what I say because in terms of sort of evidence. But, you know, but, but I. And we did reach out to her mum because we've obviously have a lot of. And this anecdotal evidence of this.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes, you know, yes.

[Claire Titley]

And it wasn't from just one, one source. It was from several sources. And we weren't the first people to kind of expose that or discuss that either in, in that regard as to, as to her father. Again, it's, you know, it's. He wasn't in the picture. And I've heard various things from different people, you know, but it's all sort of hearsay.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right.

[Claire Titley]

We did try and reach. We did try and reach out to him, but he definitely. He certainly wasn't in the picture. And it was definitely very much. She had this kind of relationship with her mum, as you kind of do when you have single parent families in that way. She effectively, effectively was, you know, single parent family.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right.

[Claire Titley]

I mean, you hear the 999, the 911 call. Sorry. You know, from when her mum says, I can't control her anymore.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes. I got a black eye. Right, yeah, yeah. Was that Sheila?

[Claire Titley]

That was Rachel.

[Jennifer Fessler]

That was Rachel, Right, yeah.

[Claire Titley]

Calling the police saying, I, I can't control her anymore.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right. She's lost it. She's completely lost it. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I'm like, my head is spinning. I have so much to ask you.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

So let me ask you this. A lot of talk about the brothers, the drug dealers, and when the night of was, I guess there's no way to know for sure. Did they ever say, yes, we were on heroin or we were on. I'm picturing some kind of drug that would have altered their brain to actually allow them to do what they did.

[Claire Titley]

There was talk about them smoking some weed, and that was about it. There was no. But, you know, it was interesting. It was. It was the one thing. It was the most credible thing that. That we. That everybody thought that had happened was that somebody had taken Skyler out and got her high, or basically an accidental overdose in some form. That was the kind of. That was the most likely thing. And right up until the very end, I think. I think that's what the FBI were thinking when they were interviewing Rachel, that they were going to say she accidentally overdosed. We hid her body because we were scared, blah, blah, blah, you know, or something along these lines. So we dragged her out. We. We forcibly gave her too much because we thought it would be funny.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right, right.

[Claire Titley]

You know.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

And that all seems something that made sense.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Of course. Yeah.

[Claire Titley]

And that kind of would make sense. And you can kind of imagine that happening. And I think right up until the very end. And they were extraordinary experimenting. But it's hard to say exactly how much Skyler was taking, you know, or whether she was really kind of going as far as Sheila was in terms of her drug taking.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Well, I wasn't even thinking about Skylar getting in the car. I was thinking about how much is There could that be a reason that they were so drugged up? But. And. And I'm not talking about Pop, but it's like, I keep looking for a. An answer to this. Probably.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

A question that will never be answered.

[Claire Titley]

If they were, you'd be thinking, oh, well, obviously this is a crime of passion or it's a crime of, like, accidental. But they planned this. That's what I know.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I was talking to my producers about that before we started. That is a thing that even if they were on God knows what hallucinogenics or whatever it is, still, this was their plan. The plan was not just also to, you know, to throw some stuff in her Diet Coke. It was to stab her.

[Claire Titley]

To stab they practical car with knives, with a shovel, with all the. All the things that they needed. They talked about it for days, planned the date that they were going to do it. You know, there were all these things. And I think one of the chilling things that always gets me is the. Is the fact that. And it's one of the things that Perry or Marcia said that the prosecutors. And they said all it would have taken was for one of them to say, hey, should we not do this? You know, it just. Just would have taken that. Just that small thing.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah. So with that, it's interesting to me how the two of them felt like Sheila was a ringleader, at least to me. But in the end, they got very different sentences and having to do with the fact that Rachel cooperated, I guess, with law enforcement. And, you know, if you confess, you

[Claire Titley]

own the narrative, don't you? That's the thing. So if you're the first one, you own it. You own the narrative, and it's your. Your.

[Jennifer Fessler]

You know, but even so. But the way that the. That law enforcement, they said, when she admitted to what they had done, specifically, I guess the stabbing, they couldn't believe it. They were in shock. The one, The. The law enforcement in the room, I don't know if maybe it was FBI at the time. Yeah. And then they talked about how also law enforcement was talking about. Again, I don't know if the police or the FBI. I can't. I'm not sure. But about how when they finally got Sheila in the room, was it. I hope that I'm keeping this right. When she took her fingernails and she scratched them down the table. And that, to me, was like the first time that I was like, oh, whoa, this is a monster. She's psycho. But that almost. I felt like that was the first time that they were coming to terms with the fact that these girls could do that. Do you know what I mean?

[Claire Titley]

Yeah, yeah, that. I mean that, that was a bit earlier, but I think it's kind of like that was her. She was losing control because she. I mean, she was kind of running rings around them all, really. Like these two girls were kind of like. And in part because nobody, Nobody suspected that two girls could do something quite so horrific. And actually the only person who. Who had their suspicions possibly more than anybody else was Daniel. Well, it was. I was going to say in terms of the police was actually was Jess Colbank, the female police officer. And part of me always thinks is that because, you know, only girls know how mean girls can be, you know.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay, so here's a question I have to have answered. So Rachel told Fantasia what they had done. Right. Fantasia was the friend.

[Claire Titley]

Rachel. Rachel lied. Rachel said that Sheila had stabbed.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

Skyler.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

She knew nothing about it.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right. So my question was, was Fantasia ever approached in terms of, you knew about this, you should have done something about this poor young girl who I personally place zero blame on. But I'm just asking was that did she ever have a problem because she knew and didn't, you know?

[Claire Titley]

Well, so when, When Rachel told Fantasia, Rachel had already told the police. She was just out at that point. This is what's like kind of really scared, I think sometimes quite frightening to. To kind of get your head around is that Rachel confessed she'd taken them to. At that point. Has she taken them to where the body is or she tried to take them to where.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right. It was too much. The snow was there.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right.

[Claire Titley]

And. And then she has. And then her mum somehow lets her have a sleepover with her friend.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Thank you for bringing that up. What the. Yeah, so, yes. I'm sorry, excuse me, but what the.

[Claire Titley]

I don't know. I don't know. It's just. That's just. Matt. It's absolute madness. And so Paul foundation is like having a sleepover with her, you know, like her best friend ve effectively, you know, and having a great, great evening. And then Rachel confesses.

[Jennifer Fessler]

They were laughing, talking, talking, talking. Hey, by the way, p. S. Our friend Sheila stabbed Skyler to death. Like, it was just so.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

So bizarre.

[Claire Titley]

Exactly. It's horrific. This is what I mean about. It's so horrific what these. What these girls, what these typical. These friends have. Have had to kind of go through. Because there's one thing having your high school friend who's sitting on the decks and desk next to you kind of like disappear and, and find out that they're murdered. But it's another thing to find out it's the people on the, on the desk on the other side of you that are the perpetrators. You know, that's. And in such cold blood. And that's, I mean there's, there's nothing to say. That's what it is.

[Jennifer Fessler]

No, I mean that's the, that is the part that is just so hard to reconcile. So also what I thought was really interesting is that Sheila's parents and Rachel's parents seem to me from what, what, you know, when watching. I feel like they were very polar opposite. Right. So where Rachel's parents were religious and strict, Sheila's mom apparently was very easygoing. And that's. Well, that's how it sounded. And I thought so even that we can't even point to like the parenting style because it sounds like they were. They did, they had these opposite parenting style styles.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah. There's so many things in this that are kind of really. Because I think this is what everybody tries to kind of like grasp at straws. You know, what could it possibly be? And Sheila's mum was quite permissive in some ways. I mean I think that she was probably struggling as well. She was a single mum as well. She had a new boyfriend who I think was taking a lot of attention away from. From Sheila as well. I don't think, I personally don't think that Sheila was treated well by. This is no excuse for any of this at all.

[Jennifer Fessler]

But I don't obviously, obviously was treated

[Claire Titley]

well by boys generally. I think, I think the things that happened that she would twist and say oh yeah, you know, and then make out like she was promiscuous on purpose. I wonder whether in a post me too era we would kind of reframe what happened to her slightly differently. But I still don't think any of that is. Of course not, of course nothing. Nothing in tool.

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[Jennifer Fessler]

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[Redfin Advertiser]

talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app. You can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to Wait, this could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com if you're feeling off fatigue,

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[Jennifer Fessler]

What about their, their sexual relationship, Sheila and Rachel? Do you think that. Because it did sound like, you know, it sounded like Rachel was so afraid for that to come out, that they were also involved in a sexual relationship and that maybe part of it was that they were so afraid that Skyler was going to out them. Yeah, but is that. How much. What do you think?

[Claire Titley]

It's hard to, you know, like, it's really hard. I think there's a few things about this. I'm not saying that there's nothing to that at all. However, I think it's. It, it depends. You can listen to the facts in both ways and kind of there's a lot of people who say, you know, were they really having a relationship or not? Was it just experimentation of which there was a lot of things kind of going on and at the time and

[Jennifer Fessler]

they said somebody, one of her friends said it wasn't that stigmatized even though it was 2012, that there were other same sex relationships going on at their school. I don't know.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah, this is the thing I did. I think in some ways it was, I mean it was 2012, but it's still kind of. I don't know whether it would be, you know, would it be so bad that she would kill for that? I, I don't, I don't know. And also there's no. Actual. Skyler was, was very supportive of people like that. There was no evidence that Skyler was this big homophobe and all this, you know, I mean.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Oh, no, not that she's right, but even maybe she kept saying she has a lot of information that she could have there. But even if they were that scared, obviously this is, that goes down in every high school every day. This is not that unusual. You know, there's nothing that I felt like while I was watching it that was like, oh, okay, this is why they were so Scared.

[Claire Titley]

I think there's a couple of things as well that is kind of like a. You know, there's one argument as well that I mean, I've heard rumors of and I haven't had verified that she's got had. Rachel's had relationships, maybe even married another woman in prison. So you could argue that that's, you know, evidence in one direction. But also this, this angle about the lesbian relationship only came out when she was. She did her first parole hearing.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Really.

[Claire Titley]

And actually I think it was in a book first of all, that. I think it was a book that maybe hinted at it. And then after that she then brought it up in a parole hearing. But at the time, Rachel had all these opportunities, as did Sheila, to say, hey guys, it was a crime of passion and that they could have come up with all of this stuff because she had so much opportunity to do it. And at no point. Point did any. Did she do that. You know, she didn't mention it once.

[Jennifer Fessler]

But guess what? Even without doing that, she's getting out in two years.

[Inner Balance Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

What is that about? Like, and they were tried as adults. So explain to me that why is she only doing 15 years? I guess that's another kind of question. Right. But that I just. With whatever her lawyer said or did this crazy. Listen, I. It's very tempting for me to call her names because I'm so disgusted. Right. And say in from where I'm sitting, these are monsters. These are not human people. I can't accept the fact they're even human. But a much better person than I would be able to find the humanity somewhere. You had a way of doing that, even with what it. What it was. Right. Like you. You were able to look into their humanity.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah. Well, one of the things that's really. I mean, in some ways the fact that they both pleaded guilty means that Dave and Mary were saved a long, drawn out trial. You know, so there was no trial. But also the flip side of that is because there was no trial, there's no investigation of the. Of, of the why. You know, there's like they kind of. They've got the, the how it was done and, and what happened. So. So therefore, in order to convict them, they didn't know. Need to know the motive really. So nobody ever asked that. Nobody dug into it. Nobody ever did all these things like digging into their past and, and us put them on, try and put them on the stand and ask them why they did and all this. Interesting.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Wow.

[Claire Titley]

And so that's part of the intrigue of all of this as well is, is that. But it's also, it's kind of almost. I, I know, I don't know. I can't speak for Dave and Mary and what it must be like for them, but it's almost kind of painful that we don't know any reasons.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah. I'm wondering if it was a mixed bag. Right. Like, like, probably glad that they, they were convicted so quickly, but also so many unanswered questions. Right. What do you think? Claire, you are the closest to this. What do you think? Like, are they just, Were they born evil?

[Claire Titley]

No, I don't. Well, I don't. I'm. Somebody once said there's no such thing as an evil person, but just evil people can do evil things. And I, and I remember speaking to somebody about it, a district attorney, who I, who I met on a flight once, and I remember them talking to them about it and saying, and they said that the chances of them being psychopaths or sociopaths or whatever it is is so small, particularly for women. And I, I, I can't tell you why they did this. I, I think part, there's so many small reasons. I think part of it is that, is being that age. Not that all teenagers are capable of this, but, but there is something about that age when you just, your brain, your consequences are a little bit arbitrary and they're a bit abstract. You know, you don't really understand kind of, you know, what's going on. You think you're an adult and you behave like an adult, and you, quite frankly, look like an adult from the outside a lot. But if you, you know, as if you've had, like, teenagers, you'll know one minute that you'll be conversing with them like they're kind of like 30, and you'll think, what brilliant. And the next minute they'll behave like a toddler. And it's, it is a bit like that.

[Jennifer Fessler]

But, Claire, it's that. It's the brutality of the murder. It's the physical. That's the part that I can't reconcile.

[Claire Titley]

No, I can't either. I've got to be. I, I can't understand that either, and I have. And it's the repeatedness of it. And that I can only think is, it's, it's an evil, evil act. Evil act. What they do, I don't know.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Again, I'm not, I'm just not that good of a woman that I could, I can't find the, I can't find humanity in them. And I don't think you could have done a better job of explaining their humanity and describing their humanity. I'm not talking about Skylar. Obviously, I love her, and I've met her, and I'm mourning her loss now, you know, but, like, for Sheila and Rachel, I am. I can't figure out how these are human girls, and yet you represented them in such a wonderful, like, the whole situation in a human way with all of the friends. They were all friends. They all did things together. Rachel was in theater, you know, and they had these boyfriends and. Yeah, crazy.

[Claire Titley]

It's really hard as a filmmaker, actually, because in one way, you want to go, these are just evil people, and we mustn't kind of, like, give them screen time. And I was particularly nervous about giving them a voice, you know, with actors as well. And that was. You know, I was. Because I really wanted Skylar to have a voice throughout this, but I didn't. I didn't want their voices to become overwhelming or have more than Skyler. And, you know, it's so easy to give that, you know, it's not their story. I didn't want it to be their story. However, at the same time, you know, we realized quite early on that in order to show how. How this had happened to an extent, maybe not why, but how it had happened, you had to understand why Skylar loved these people, because she loved them both.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Wow. That's interesting. That's so interesting. Ye.

[Claire Titley]

You have to kind of get that and understand why. Why they all love each other. You know, why they had this intense relationship.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah.

[Claire Titley]

So. And Skyler, you know, was. It wasn't an easy, you know, she. She. She loved them for a reason. Yeah, because they were funny, they were engaging, they made a laugh.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And all their, like, all their little messages to each other reminded me of the messages that my daughter particular, not my son as much, but it was love you, love you, love you, love you, love you. You know, your girly, bestie, bestie, bestie. Like, just the silly that girls that age, you know, write. And you got to see not only Skyler's messages, but the girls and the way that they wrote. I mean, is there any way, Claire, you know, parents out there. I don't even know. I have no idea how you would even answer this. Is this. Is there anything in there, any kind of insight in this in terms of the story, not just in terms of how you represented it, that would, like, help a parent? Okay. This is something to look for.

[Claire Titley]

I think it's just more about, like, open lines of Communication, you know, it's more about kind of knowing that they. I, I've got to say there was something very unique that happened in this, to this, just this particular, say, this particular group, this generation, this particular era. 2012 was particularly unique because it was the era when social media was brand new and adults just didn't know what was going on.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Right. Yes.

[Claire Titley]

I go to talks at my daughter's school about how evil social media is and we, you know, and I'm not saying that we know better because horrendous things happen all the time still, but there is a little bit more of an understanding about it than there was there, whereas it was the Wild west entirely. So I'm kind of explaining that because I don't want to be like, oh, you know, Dave and Mayor whoever, their parents should have been listening more.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah, that's very interesting because I actually, Yeah, I mean, I, I felt that, I felt that about, you know, the fact that even the police didn't understand it, didn't understand the social media of it. One thing I do want to ask you is that they found the phone records of Sheila and Rachel and put them, I think, in what is it called? Blacksville. Blacksville. Right. At four in the morning or something. Where were those. Why did it take so long for them to uncover those phone records?

[Claire Titley]

I mean, for starters, like, I think there was a lot of things with the police that was slow for various reasons. But even when they did kind of start kind of things kicking in because we were asking this question, they were arriving on like CD ROMs. I mean, you forget it's like 2012 and you think was like the other day, but they had, like, they still had those, like those discs. Do you know, do you remember?

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah.

[Claire Titley]

And that's how the phone records were arriving on a disc in the Post.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I guess I thought just because the FBI got involved. I get it. While the social media of it all was hard to sort of for them to key into, but phone records, I would have thought would have, at least in 2012, have been.

[Claire Titley]

No, they were still. They were, they were emailing the company and they were sending them back in a, you know, on a CD Rom and then they were, then they were being kind of printed out.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah, but you, you did think that there were some things that went down slowly in terms of law enforcement.

[Claire Titley]

It's. I, there's a lot of frustrations when doing this and I think anybody watching this series will be kind of like, why didn't they see this sooner? And it's and it's so easy to see things in hindsight.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Hindsight is 20 20, right?

[Claire Titley]

It is. But also, I just, you know, it's. Those girls, I think, were running rings around the police. You know, they really, really were.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And.

[Claire Titley]

And. And quite frankly, if there wasn't a confession, I, you know, would this have been solved? It's, you know, it's kind of. It's hard to know, really.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And do you think that is. Because. In part, it's just too hard to believe. It's just too hard for even the police to get to. To think that this could have been the reality of the situation. And then to his. I forget what. I'm sorry, what was the. The female detective's name?

[Claire Titley]

Jess Colbank.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Jess. I felt like Jess was the most. She really was sort of the most insightful. And you said earlier, maybe because she's a woman, but she. It felt to me like she was the one that really was. Was there was an inkling for her that this is probably, maybe.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

What had happened.

[Claire Titley]

I think also there was this genuine belief from the police and the FBI that the girls were victims. And so they were tiptoeing around Dylan and Derek. Is that. That they're the guys of Dylan, Derek. But also, I think just generally they were kind of thinking, you know, these are young, impressionable girls. They probably even David.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Mary thought that. Right.

[Claire Titley]

Except. Well, this isn't what. You know. Exactly. Exactly.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And what about Dylan and Derek, by the way? Was there any justice for Dylan and Derek? I know maybe they weren't. Maybe they weren't the straightest kids in the world, but if. When I was watching, I was like, wow, so they didn't do the bank robbery and they were in no way responsible for this.

[Claire Titley]

That nobody's ever been charged for the bank robbery.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Okay.

[Claire Titley]

That's all we can say.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Okay.

[Claire Titley]

Is that nobody's ever been charged for the bank robbery.

[Jennifer Fessler]

And where are they now?

[Claire Titley]

I believe they're in the same area, but I don't. I don't know.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I mean, that felt very. They. What they must have gone through. Did you ask them to. To be interviewed or.

[Claire Titley]

I think we did reach out to them kind of early on. I think somebody. I think somebody from the team reached out to them kind of early on, but I think, understandably, it's not something that they probably wanted to be involved in. In that. In that regard.

[Jennifer Fessler]

No, I would understand that too. Yeah. So, Claire, how does this, you know. Now you move on to your next project. Yeah. Do you. Are you. Is there residual pain from this or is there, you know, has it affected your life or were you able to compartmentalize?

[Claire Titley]

I don't think you ever. I think it always does. And it, and it affects you in ways that you don't kind of imagine. It's something that I did watch it, you know, my daughter did watch it as we kind of went along. So it wasn't a big shock when she saw it. And, and we talked about the issues in it and, and, and that's, you know, that, that's something that kind of, we've discussed a lot and, and I'm not worried, I mean, I'm not genuinely worried about her being killed by her best friends. But, but, but we talked about the importance about talking openly about feelings and about heightened emotions, I suppose, and in that kind of a way and how things can feel a little bit out of control sometimes. So that I, you know, I hope that's kind of improved that relationship in, in that kind of a way. Something always stays with you. I tell you what, Morgantown, West Virginia is always going to be a part of my heart. I was there kind of so many times over the course of 10 months and so, you know, a sort of a cliche, but I've left a little bit of my heart over there is kind of, it's a beautiful, beautiful part of the world that's definitely kind of made a difference. But yeah, I, I, I think caution, I think it's very easy for us to be like, to. I don't think there are any easy answers to this story and which is part of the reason why I'm really drawn to it. I don't think there are any easy morals. There's no kind of like, keep your kids off social media and they won't be stabbed by their friends. It's not, it's not that kind of clear. It's like, it's, it's. This was a unique set of circumstances in so many ways. You know, that the social media aspect of it, the kind of the, you know, the fact that it was kind of effectively bullying on social media, the fact that they were these teenagers, the fact that these things were going on in their lives and, and I mean, so many things, so many things kind of like came together for this to happen. And it was a particularly unique set of circumstances. But more open discussions I think is the, is the kind of one takeaway that I'll, I'll get from this.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I think that for me was two things. It was, was at the end of it frustrating and yet that's what made it so fascinating is that. I don't know, I watched it. I watched it again, and I'm probably gonna watch it again because I'm obsessed. But that I just. There are no answers. That's what is. You can ponder that. And I have been now, you know, since I. Since watching it, trying to make sense of it, but they all. You. I just think you did such a good job of showing the humanity and was a situation that doesn't feel human, you know.

[Claire Titley]

Thank you. Thank you. Well, painfully, you have to kind of show it in order to be able to show the heartbreak, don't you? You have to sort of understand that in order to be able to understand the heartbreak that Skylar went through.

[Jennifer Fessler]

But even watching Rachel's mom in the courtroom, you know, you showed. So you showing that was so interesting to me. Not just interesting, heartbreaking to me. And talk about, I guess, unconditional love of a mother.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

You know, and, you know, I've read some books. I was telling our producers some fiction books and written in the voice of the mother of, you know, serial killers. And it always goes back to this unconditional love. And you kind of. Even though. Even though you were so angry at her.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Whatever she did or didn't do, you felt her pain.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah. But we would. Wouldn't we. If our. If our kids did something horrendous? I mean, I know. I mean, I. You know, I know that you would still love them.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah. No matter what period. Yes. Just. It's just. It's just the way it is.

[Claire Titley]

Completely. Completely.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yeah. Yeah. Will you just tell me a little bit? I'm sure I could talk to you forever, but what are your next? Because now I have to follow you like a crazy person. What are your next projects?

[Claire Titley]

Oh, I was. I've got, like, two projects at the moment that I'm juggling at the moment to see what they are. And I can't. I can't talk about them. And they're. I say they're very, like, different. But I think the thing that I am always drawn to is things that don't have kind of black and white answers, you know, that are kind of a little bit on the edge and a little bit where, you know, you. Yeah. They don't have an easy, easy answer. I think maybe. Yeah. The friends like these. One of the things that did attract me was the fact that although it's frustrating, the fact that there's no kind of, like, clear motive to it.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

But actually, I find that kind of more interesting. Because it makes you dig deeper, you know, and like kind of to try and to try and kind of get to that. So.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Yes.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah. The projects I've got kind of like bubbling away at the moment are both in that kind of vein.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Are you able to tell me if they're true crime?

[Claire Titley]

No, nothing does true crime actually. It's cut. Yeah, no, nothing that's true.

[Jennifer Fessler]

That's not going to be your new genre. That's not going to be your.

[Claire Titley]

I would never say never. But then I didn't approach this as a true crime as such. I never. I was only in hindsight I was like, oh, yeah, we're making a true crime. I just felt like we were making a story about, you know, Skylar Nice. And, and, and her disappearance and, and her story and, and that, you know, as I said, that's why we tried to so hard to make it feel much more like a teen movie than like a true crime, you know, and, and we, and of course we use kind of true crime tropes and techniques to cut, you know, that kind of work, you know, and, and we totally use those, but they weren't the starting point at any point. The starting point was like, how do we get Skyler's voice through this? How can we give her a voice back? You know, how can we make the audience understand what it was like to be her and like to be her friends back, you know, back then, rather than kind of like put the audience in the kind of thing like, how can we help the audience solve this crime? It's kind of like it's a crime that's kind of out there, you know, as you said, it's, you know, you can Google it and see it's. It's a relatively, relatively kind of well known. So we definitely wanted to bring something totally different to it, you know, and something that we felt. We felt hadn't been done in this. In this way before.

[Jennifer Fessler]

Well, I've never seen anything like it. And Skyler will be. And her parents will be in my prayers. I will literally get choked up saying that to you. That's the effect it had on me. Her parents just so.

[Claire Titley]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Fessler]

I mean, if that's any consolation to them, I. Your. Your work has touched me. I can. And I'm. I'm very grateful.

[Claire Titley]

Thank you. It means so much. Thank you. It really, really does.

[Jennifer Fessler]

All right, well, Claire, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate you.

[Claire Titley]

It's been lovely.

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