Killer Thriller: Joe Exotic Was Charming… Until He Was Terrifying. Brian Van Holt on the Tiger King Chaos

Summary

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Killer Thriller: Joe Exotic Was Charming… Until He Was Terrifying

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present — iHeartPodcasts
Host: Alisa Donovan
Guest: Brian Van Holt
Date: March 26, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of "Killer Thriller" dives into the chaotic true crime saga of Joe Exotic—the infamous ‘Tiger King’—and the madness that surrounded his world, especially as explored in the miniseries "Joe vs. Carole." Alisa Donovan is joined by Brian Van Holt, who played John Reinke (the zookeeper who kept the Exotic Animal Park running) in the television adaptation. The pair unpack the complexities of the real-life figures, Van Holt’s approach to his character, the wildness of the true story, and the show's creative decisions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Joe Exotic: Eccentricity and Darkness

• Van Holt’s introduction to Joe Exotic: Initially aware of Joe running for office from late-night TV bits before seeing the Tiger King documentary.
  • "I believe it was during COVID... this thing was over and done in a matter of hours because it was addicting. I couldn't take my eyes off of everything." — Brian Van Holt (05:31)
• Community during the pandemic: The documentary became a shared cultural event.
  • "It was like a community. It was a cultural moment, we'll say." — Van Holt (06:46)
• Joe’s dual nature:
  • "Super flamboyantly, over the top gay man who’s scary, who could kill you, like with not—you know what I mean? The dynamic of those dualities." — Van Holt (15:07)
  • On witnessing Joe’s quick temper: “See that switch in him, right? Like that fast, no hesitation whatsoever...And you just multiply that with every single character in that world.” (15:27-16:09)

The Cast of Characters

• Land of misfits and throwaways:
  • “It’s like the land of misfits and throwaways always end up together...everything’s good...and then shit’s gonna blow up no matter what. Because those dynamics always ends up down the same path, I promise you." — Van Holt (08:19)
• Narcissism and dysfunction:
  • "There's a...narcissism...really triggered me too watching this with Joey with a lot of the characters...everybody except for John Rinke, the guy who I get to play.” (08:51)
• Cast connections and humanity:
  • “There was room for some compassion in every care. And that’s what [showrunner Eton Frankel] was looking for...make it way more interesting.” (30:20)
  • On Kyle MacLachlan as Carole’s husband: “The biggest sweetheart. He’s awesome. Get him on [the show], he’s the greatest.” (32:30)

Playing John Reinke: Boundaries and Challenges

• Forbidden contact:
  • Actors were prohibited by NBC/Peacock from contacting the real-life people they portrayed to avoid litigation and ensure authenticity.
  • “We weren't allowed to reach out or talk to or engage with...anybody from the show.” (09:53)
• Why Van Holt found Reinke most interesting:
  • “He was the most fascinating to me because he seemed like the most sane and normal person." (10:57)
  • Reinke’s resilience: “Here’s a man that doesn’t have any legs...The dude has the best attitude. So grateful, so loving.” (11:51)
• Desire for more direct insight:
  • Van Holt wished to ask Reinke about his loyalty and perspective on Joe Exotic’s guilt:
    • "I want to understand what was it about him that made you so loyal and love him so much? ...Do you think, is he guilty?" (12:44-13:37)

Ethics, Loyalty, and Normalizing the Extreme

• Crossing the line with animal care:
  • Van Holt questions whether handlers (like Reinke) truly realized when things had gone too far:
    • “Did you really not know...and where’s the line and how far do you go before you’re not OK with that?” (16:31)
  • "Everyone that works at the zoo has a true deep passion...they couldn’t imagine an uncomfortable, horrific, you know, behavior." (16:50)

Murder-for-Hire, Shifting Loyalties, and Turning Points

• Murder-for-hire plot as inflection point:
  • Van Holt, channeling Reinke, sees the plot as something mostly “bluster” from Joe; the response was to tune him out.
    • “He kind of tunes him out and doesn’t believe all everything that he says...his part of dealing with him is to just tune him out.” (24:49)
• Power of community and animal bonds:
  • "They stayed [at the zoo] for the animals...and also for each other. The bond that I saw...their commitment to each other." (26:13)
• Episode Six—The Gift Shop Confrontation:
  • Van Holt describes filming a chaotic scene, including falling as a man with prosthetic legs and being surrounded by wild merchandise:
    • "There was all these weird sex toys in that shop...I'd throw a condom in someone's face with Joe Exotic's face on it." (27:36-29:35)

Real-Life Parallels and the Human Core

• Travis: Loss and Awakening:
  • Van Holt notes the death of Travis (Joe’s husband) as both a major narrative and real-world turning point, forcing characters and viewers to confront the darkness of Joe’s world.
    • "Travis was a very beloved person...for Joe to move on real fast from that also really wasn’t a good look either." (35:12-35:42)
  • Favorite scene: Rinke’s emotional recollection of Travis.
    • "He misses the alligators...I miss Travis." (restating 36:15)
• Authentic reactions from real-life figures:
  • Some real-world figures reached out via social media:
    • “That dude...He reached out...Instagram DMed me...‘Too bad you’re playing such a dick,’ and then he just ripped Rinke.” (48:13-49:05)
• Danger and unpredictability of the Tiger King world:
  • "That world is so scary and unpredictable...con-man, professional con artists." (50:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Joe Exotic’s charisma and danger:
  • "I'm scared of him. Yeah. At the same time. He's charming as hell. He's funny, right?" — Brian Van Holt (15:07)
  • “He’s only happy...He needs to have another...He’s so insecure and so wounded.” (45:58-46:37)
• Van Holt on actors’ empathy:
  • “Even the darkest character will have a moment of empathy or compassion...intended intentional casting, you know, thought from Eton.” (30:20-31:36)
• Reflections on compassion for even difficult characters:
  • “There’s moments where I actually have some sort of compassion for them...Like you name it. I have a lot of compassion for Carole Baskin’s husband. Oh boy.” (31:36)
• Van Holt on the humanity behind the wildness:
  • "We had such a great cast. Amazing. Everybody, talent wise, but just good people, good humans." (28:27)
• On never-ending saga:
  • “There’s just so much to uncover and you can’t do it in just one...eight episode limited series.” (45:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:26 – Episode introduction and context (true crime, Joe Exotic, the adaptation)
• 05:31 – Van Holt on first learning about Joe Exotic, early impressions
• 08:17 – "Land of misfits" and dysfunctional group dynamics
• 09:53 – Actors prohibited from contacting real-life counterparts
• 11:22 – Why Van Holt found John Reinke compelling as a character
• 12:44–13:37 – What Van Holt wishes he could ask Reinke (loyalty, guilt, perspective)
• 15:07 – On Joe Exotic’s contradictory, dangerous charisma
• 16:31 – Were zoo handlers aware of wrongdoing?
• 18:00 – Creators’ discussion about the deaths of tigers, show vs. reality
• 24:49 – Murder-for-hire: Reinke's approach, loyalty, and bluster
• 27:36–29:35 – Behind the scenes: gift shop confrontation in Episode Six
• 30:20–31:36 – Showrunner’s casting philosophy: empathy and complexity
• 34:33 – Impact of Travis’s death
• 36:15 – Emotional connection and loss (favorite scene)
• 38:20 – Dean Winters as Jeff Lowe, betrayal, and FBI scene
• 44:16 – Did the scripted series reveal more about Joe and Carole than the doc?
• 45:58 – Joe Exotic’s relationships, continued drama after the spotlight
• 48:13–49:05 – Instagram DMs from real-life counterparts, navigating tricky boundaries

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation mixes fascination, humor, and genuine bewilderment at the extremes of the Tiger King universe. Both host and guest respect the gravity of real-life tragedies but also reveal the joy and challenges of portraying such outrageous material with authenticity and heart.

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Summary Takeaways

• Tiger King as a phenomenon is both stranger and deeper than fiction: layered with charisma, darkness, loyalty, and danger.
• John Reinke (as played by Van Holt) stands out for bringing heart and sanity to the zoo’s chaos—a performance guided by compassion and curiosity, despite limited access to the real Reinke.
• The creative team insisted on empathy in casting, finding human truth even in the most bizarre characters.
• The story’s appeal remains in its endless twists and ongoing real-world fallout, with the line between reality and spectacle often blurred.
• Human bonds and traumas—loss, loyalty, disillusionment—resonate even in the most sensational narrative.

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For fans of true crime, Hollywood adaptations, or the psychological underbelly of Tiger King, this episode provides both insider revelations and thoughtful reflection on why these stories grip us so tightly.

Transcript

[Alisa Donovan]

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Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer

[Alisa Donovan]

Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Hey everyone. Elisa Donovan here. And this is Killer Thriller. Today we are diving into a true crime story that was already wild and then it got the Hollywood treatment. First there were the headlines. Joe Exotic, the so called tiger king and a murder for hire plot targeting animal rights activist Carol Baskin. Then came Joe V. Carroll, the series that tried to make sense of all of it. But in the middle of that chaos was someone who wasn't chasing attention and wasn't playing to the cameras. And that is John Reinke. He ran the exotic animal zoo at the center of all of the chaos. And he saw firsthand how things went from eccentric to something much darker. And the man who brought him to life in that series is Brian Van Holt. Brian, thank you so much for being here today with me.

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh, thank you for having me. It's my, it's my pleasure. I first got the email from my manager about the invite and I assumed based on the title of the, the podcast that it was going to have to do with my, you know, for the movie I did House of Wax.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, well, listen, if that was, you know, based on something real, then we definitely, we would talk about that too.

[Brian Van Holt]

No, but I was, I was so happy to see that it was about Joe versus Carol in this, this to talk about and engage and revisit this whole, this, this whole world. Was, yes, was, it's a pleasure and I'm, I was thrilled. So thank you for having me.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I'm so glad. Because, listen, I mean, this is just one of the craziest zaniest crimes and stories that I think I've ever heard. And it just sort of keeps unfolding the more that you read about it and learn about it. And so when were you watching the documentary the Tiger King like the rest of us? Like, what was your immediate reaction when you heard about this story?

[Brian Van Holt]

So I actually first, I didn't hear about the story, but I do remember Joe Exotic prior to seeing the docu series because he was running for office and I know he got a lot of attention on like the late night talk shows and I, Steve Colbert did something really funny. So that's it. But then the doc and I'm like, wow, that's a fascinating. That's a, that's a crazy. That's a fascinating dude. But then, yes, the docu series came out and I believe it was during COVID Yes. So we're binging everything and then this was like, I think a two day binger. Like this thing was over and done in a matter of, of hours because it was addicting. It couldn't, I couldn't, you know, it couldn't take my eyes off of everything and everything. It's so filled with. The characters in this are just, you know, are fascinating and you know, stranger than fiction, but so, so real and yes, more normal than we probably give them credit for.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right. I mean, it felt like, I think as it was the beginning of the pandemic too and it felt like anyway, the one, the first thing that everybody was doing together, you know, like in our homes, all over the country, it was bananas.

[Brian Van Holt]

That is true. That is. Yeah, you wrapped. That's a great point. 100%. It was super. It was like a community. It was a cultural, A cultural moment, we'll say.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

So when you were getting into this, what, what part of the real story, like, what was the main thing that made you go, wait, wait, did this really happened? Is this, is this real? Like, what, what's the, the biggest thing that you think of?

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh my. Well, in terms of this story in this world, I think. I don't. It's such a hard question. It's like asking what's your favorite movie?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

It's true. I hate that question when people ask

[Brian Van Holt]

you that because there's this world in and of itself is so fascinating to me and it's beyond believability and it, but at the same time, I know it reminded me some like, you know, don't, don't take this the wrong way. And it might but. Or take it the wrong way. It reminded me a lot of Similarities with my family dynamics on a. You know, on a. On a. But. On a. You know, on steroids. But there I could. Could. I could relate to some of the craziness and to. But. But at the same time, I couldn't. But what. What. But to answer your question, I think. I think the most unbelievable character which. But also this. So pure and truthful to himself is Joe. Exotic. I mean, there was so many. There's a lot. And you don't see too. In. In. In the docu series that we got to discover and uncover doing Joe versus Carol.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Like, tell me there's just so much

[Brian Van Holt]

you didn't get into each with the history behind. More each individual character. It's just because everybody's got such a past and it's like the land of misfits and throwaways always end up together and it always ends up in the beginning. Like perfect.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Brian Van Holt]

Loving, everything's good. Understand each other. You know, I feel connected. I'm understood. And then. And then shit's gonna blow up no matter what. Because those dynamics always ends up down the same path, I promise you.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yep.

[Brian Van Holt]

And it's like. Has a lot to do with the. There's a. Another thing with the narcissism is what really triggered me too, I think watching this with Joey with a lot of the characters, to be honest with you, like Carol Baskin. Mm. Every single. Every. Everybody except for John Rinke, the guy who I get to play. Yes, we could. You know, to be just so full disclosure too. We weren't. We weren't allowed to reach out or. Or talk to or engage with with not only our characters that we were playing who were still with us, but anybody from the show.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, really? You mean production?

[Brian Van Holt]

Said production. Production coming down from Peacock, NBC.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Were they worried about, like.

[Brian Van Holt]

I mean, probably.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. It's always about money. So this is definitely corporate. Corporate. It really is. Yeah. Corporate. Part of the business is like no way, no how. You're not even. You're not even going there. Because I. My first thing I want to do as an actor and most of us did too.

[Alisa Donovan]

Sure.

[Brian Van Holt]

Reach out to our. Our. Our person, a character. The person that we're playing and tried to. At least most of us wanted to, but then, you know, try to learn as much as possible and show as much respect and be as authentic and, you know, it's part of what I love. You know, why I do this is to. To, you know, you know, meet interesting, fascinating people and I get to play them. It's. Which is another you know, bonus. But he was. So we weren't allowed to reach out or talk to him or connect with. With, with anybody that was involved with the show. That didn't prevent them from reaching out sometimes. Which I got. It just.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Did they. Did people contact you guys?

[Brian Van Holt]

So the reason, so the reason why. A. You asked me why. I think a. Because the litigation in my, in potential, you know, lawsuits, for whatever reason. Because I'm sure I would have, like, you know, done something wrong and jeopardize the show. I, you know, I probably got in a tiger. I probably would have crawled in the cage with Rinky with, you know, with Bone Digger, not with the weenie dogs. And, you know, and it probably never. Probably would have joined the circus and would have worked at the, you know, whatever. I probably would have tried to get a job.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Become a part of their show instead of.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. I wanted to know your show research. You know what I'm saying? I was. But. Which is a bummer that we, that we couldn't. So I, so, But I, I, I don't know where I was going with the story. I'm just saying. But I got to play the character that I was most. Yeah, he was the most fascinating to me because he was. Seemed like the most sane and normal person.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, he's, he certainly comes across as in. Both in your portrayal in the series and in any of the research that I did, he really feels like the most grounded and kind of morally centered. I mean, I think probably everybody has their own moral center, all of these people. But his is sort of the most, you know, conventionally sound. Sound. Right. Sane.

[Brian Van Holt]

Sane. You know, normal, but whatever that means. But I know. We all understand that. But, you know, I know. And it's fascinating, too. He's, you know, he's the least victim on the. That at least what I experienced, in my opinion, the least victim of. And then Saf also. The SAF character is amazing, too, but out of anybody there. And he's also a man that doesn't have any legs. You know, he's got two prosthetic legs and it's a. The dude has the best attitude. So grateful, so loving. He's got a, you know, it's just that he was just a lovely character to, To. To watch and also to try to, you know, to, to try to convey and try to emulate. But I hope one day that I can, you know, when I'm scared, I want to reach out and, and because also I'm so fast. There's so many questions, too, that I have.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right. Yeah. What would you want to ask him? What would you ask him if you could?

[Brian Van Holt]

So first, I think what would I ask? Great question. I would want to know what he really thinks. And does he. Because he was his biggest. He was Joe Exotic's biggest supporter. Still is, I think, like during the trial.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

You mean, even after he was.

[Brian Van Holt]

Abandoned him. And he kind of almost did for a little bit, but he comes back because he really, truly, my opinion, truly loves him. Loves Joe, really cares deeply about him and could understand parts of him that none of. None of them seem to be able to. And I want to understand what was it about him that made you so loyal and love him so much? At least that that's what I can. I. My feelings were when I was experiencing, watching the documentary series and all the other stuff that all the other information that I was able to absorb. And also. Do you think, is he guilty? I mean, there's a lot of. I mean.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Brian Van Holt]

You don't know who to believe and what to believe in it. You know, guilty of the charges that were, you know, and what else was going on. I mean, it's a fascinating world that it. There's such a dark underbelly.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Brian Van Holt]

I mean, I just. Yeah. There's a lot of questions I want to ask. I mean, it's another one.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Because it feels like in this series that they really kind of. They're very sympathetic to the Joe Exotic character. I mean, kind of of everyone, but really of him. I think there was great effort put into, you know, really trying to show his background and his first husband and how precious that was and how meaningful. Like I. It's like they really are trying to humanize him to a pretty strong degree, it feels like. Whereas in, you know, the reality, it just seems like, wow, this guy was dangerous.

[Brian Van Holt]

Exactly, exactly. I agree with you. That's another thing too. Yeah. 100%. Because I was keenly aware of portrayals of how people, you know, when we do stories about people that are, you know, that are real and the events really occurred and whatnot, how we portray their version of the story. And I think you're right. But there's a dark side that you. That, you know, it's. That's what I'm saying. He's such a fascinating character. Super flamboyantly, over the top gay man who's scary, who could kill you, like with not. You know what I mean? The dynamic of those dualities.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes. It's such a duality.

[Brian Van Holt]

I'm scared of him. Yeah. At the same Time. He's charming as hell. He's funny, right?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Like when he's so self deprecating and then. But he's like a showman and. And then it's like wrestling and kissing the tiger. You're like, what is going on?

[Brian Van Holt]

Like, how. Okay, what. He also turns. You've seen one moment and the thing I remember from the docu series that he was so loving the tigers, but he also got. He. So there was a moment when he got threatened and the tiger was biting his shoes and pulling him on his leg. And he's literally firing his weapon off, not at the tigers, but threatening. He's like, I'll shoot you in the face. Which, Which I would probably. I mean, you're gonna get eaten by a tiger. But see that switch in him, right? Like that fast, not did. No hesitation whatsoever. It's like a. That's the real. Another real, true part of this person's character and personality, you know, and you just multiply that with every single character in that world.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, it's.

[Brian Van Holt]

It's gonna come. There's gonna be an explosion. Totally.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Do you think that from your perspective, do you think that the people at the zoo, everyone like your ranking included, know that the lines were being crossed with the animals? Or do you think that they were and then it just sort of slowly became normalized or.

[Brian Van Holt]

That's a great. I know, I try to. I. I want. I have the same question. That's another, you know, thing I think I would want to know or ask Rinky or any other character that was there. Did you really not know, you know, certain lines are being crossed and you're okay with it and where's the line and how far do you go before you, before you, you know, you're not OK with, with, with that? I think, I think a lot of people try to deny and put in. In not believe in. In certain behavior because it's a, you know, I think because I really do see the love of each. You know what I learned too, like, everybody that works at this, at the zoo and with animals has a true deep passion. Like, there's so much love for these animals and animals in general that I think that couldn't imagine like, like, you know, an uncomfortable, horrific, you know, you know, a behavior or situation that especially coming from somebody that they at one point looked up to and probably loved, but also like they, they also turned and grew to hate him real quick. Right.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

So do you think with the, you know, there, there is some confusion and controversy about the shooting of the five Tigers. I feel like in the series they kind of portray it differently than what I've read. Was there a discussion on set about that? About what was the motivation for that?

[Brian Van Holt]

Big time. I remember it being a very. And I wasn't in the. I wasn't, I didn't participate in the actual those that part of the scenes but I remember it being very struggle for the creators and the to which story did they want to tell how they wanted to portray it. But from what I, I didn't from what I remember our show it pretty much portrayed that it, you know it really did happen.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah but that and it seems like it almost that Joe. It was almost like a selfish thing of I I'm get the zoo is being taken away from me and I don't want these tigers to live without me again. It almost felt to me like a. A sympathetic sort of thing. Whereas what it says in the press is that those animals were too expensive to keep alive or something and people wanted to pay to see little cubs.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah.

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the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures [e-mail] have you heard about Klarna?

[Alisa Donovan]

Klarna is an app designed to make everyday spending simpler and more transparent. It gives you flexibility to decide how you want to pay, whether that's paying right away, paying later, or spreading payments over time, depending on what works best for you. Everything is managed in the Klarna app, so you can keep track of purchases and stay organized. You can also discover deals and even earn cash back when you shop through the Klarna app with participating brands. It's all about flexibility and staying in control of how and when you pay. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance law license NMLS number 1353190 Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms and conditions apply.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resource with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for with the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. It's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of Become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise. And Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win. Not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

The murder for hire part of this entire.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Story, both in your series and in real life, that really seems like such a turning point. But yet Joe seems to just talk about it very openly and consistently so. Do you think that was like a. A turning point for anyone? Like for your character, for Reinky? Do you. I mean, how do you remedy that? Like, he must have had a response for.

[Brian Van Holt]

For my character, you mean? Of how I portrayed it in the show and how I felt about it. I felt like, you know, I have my own. Well, my. I'm assuming again, I never met with. With Mr. Reinke and I don't know. And. But for me, I. There's a part of me that has the same. Had the same, you know, feelings and animosity towards. Towards Carol Baskin. Did I believe that. That his friend could inherently like really mean it? I don't think so. I don't think he was capable of believing that his. Somebody that. And this is a choice that. That. That he feels more like he was framed and set up and that wasn't. He would say it out loud and jokingly. He's a lot of bluster, Joe. Exotic. And that's what I remember. I remember him saying that actually John Rinky in the. In the documentary. I remember I wrote it down in some of my old notes. But he's like kind of tunes him out and doesn't believe all everything that he says and all that. All that. Bless her. So his part of dealing with him is he kind said he just tuned him out and didn't. Didn't wow into a lot of what he was obviously, you know, you know, peacocking about, as they say.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right. I mean, and there is. There. There's a lot of loyalty in that whole world. And why do you think people stayed even as things got so extreme?

[Brian Van Holt]

My opinion is that they stayed and they. They're there in the first place for the. For. For the animals. Like I said earlier, there is a true, deep, strong, like, connection to animals and love and care for these animals and also for each other. The bond that I saw and what I. The information that, you know, most of the stuff that I was, you know, being able to watch and read and see, you know, you know, YouTube's a great thing that their. Their commitment to each other. There's a special bond between everybody that worked there and a deep love and a deep. A deep care for a lot of them.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Brian Van Holt]

I think they felt, you know, and acceptance and special bond and part of a special fraternity, especially working with Joe. Exotic, I'm sure. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's talk about episode six. Do you remember what happens in episode six? Because a lot happens in episode six.

[Brian Van Holt]

I know. I remember a lot happening in episode six, John.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

It's when he finds out he's gonna be a dad with Amber. Joe totally loses his marbles. And you walk in on that confrontation. Do you remember that? How was that to shoot?

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh, I walk in on the confrontation when I get tossed on the ground in the gift shop.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Brian Van Holt]

That's funny. That's a great episode. There's a lot happening in that. So as much as possible, things are based on. In. In, you know, shaped around the true events as much as possible was to shoot it. I mean, I. Overall, in general, I love filming this show, this. This series. It was so fun. We, you know, and crazy to. To reenact and kind of participate in this bizarro world and to commit to it. And we have, you know, we get. This is our license to be. You know, this is what a gift that we get to be crazy and live these, you know, these. These lives that we were, like, so enamored with while, you know, we all watch the series that we. And we get paid for it. But the. The actors I love, we had such a great cast. Amazing.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yeah, phenomenal.

[Brian Van Holt]

Phenomenal. Everybody, talent wise, but just good people, good humans.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, that's nice.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah, yeah. Really good humans. And it was such a, you know, and it's hard. And sometimes, I'll be honest with you, it's not always like that.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yeah. Oh, Believe me, I know. I've worked with some wackos.

[Brian Van Holt]

It's part of the bay, you know, that's part of the gift. But we. We just. We just had a lot of fun and in. In, you know, and there was so many different scenes again. But I remember that show. That scene was. That was funny, man. I mean, there was a lot of laughs that day too, and it was intense. And me being a stuntman, I had to do my own. I had to do a fall and I had to act like I had no legs and do an act like fall. I don't know. It was. There was all these sexual. Like, there's all these weird sex toys in that shop and stuff fall on me. And I'd throw a condom in someone's face and during their take and with Joe Exotic's face on it, running for office. I don't know what it was. There was all these weird little gifts in the tchotchke shop. And you'd end up, like, ending up with like, a dildo or a penis on my face or something. It was. I'm like, what's going on here?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. You're like, what am I doing?

[Brian Van Holt]

And it was also intense acting by everybody on. It was like, you know, like Sam Keeley's character, John Finley. I'm sorry. And Amber. I mean, it's just a really good. I mean, I love that John Cameron Mitchell is like, oh, so good. I've been a fan since New York in the 90s.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes. Me too. Me too. Yeah. Hedwig. Yep. Yeah. And. But you can really feel in this show that every. Every character there is like a real humanity that the actors brought to them, you know, without. Because they could all be caricatures. Right. Because they're so big in certain ways. But everybody, like, you really feel like there's a heart behind.

[Brian Van Holt]

That's interesting. Everyone say that. You nailed it. So Eton Frankel, the showrunner that said that that's the. Probably why everybody. Each individual cast me probably was. Was cast for their part for that role because they. Empty. They had a sort of. Of an empathy or. Or an empathic part of their character's interpretation or their audition. I know that for sure. Like, the re. Like, they made a, you know, a note of that for me and we talked about it about having. I wish the word I was looking. I wanted to quote him, but just compassion. He said he felt like each character they had. There's a. There's room for some compassion in every care. And that's what they. He was looking for. Even in every. Every. And I'm trying to think of a character that. That does not have those moments where even the darkest character will have a moment of empathy or compassion that you should have or have for or see a little bit of it. I think so. But I think that was a, you know, an intended intentional casting, you know, thought from Eton, which I love. It's like that's make it. That makes it way more interesting.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Brian Van Holt]

Because you do, you know, you end up some of these moments and you know, some of these characters even, even the most deplorable, annoying, awful human beings and characters in the show. There's moments where I actually have some sort of compassion for them. Like you name it. I have a lot of compassion for. For Carole Baskin's husband. Oh boy. I'm just saying. But every evening. Carol Baskin I have.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes. I mean well, her husband also seemed like. So just like unbelievably good natured.

[Brian Van Holt]

It's too much, man. There's no way. It's too much. So much. It's like unbelievable. It's. It's like you can't write that stuff. Like you can't. I mean I was interested to see Kyle McLaughlin play this character who's into my. Another one of the coolest dudes on the planet. One of my favorite human beings.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, that's great to hear because I love his work, but I've never met him.

[Brian Van Holt]

The biggest sweetheart. He's awesome. Get him on. He's the greatest. Oh yeah.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I love hearing that.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. Everybody. There's not one. There wasn't one. You know, there wasn't one weak link. You know, I don't know how to articulate. But yeah, see, I go, how are you going to play this dude? Because he's so likable and so cool. Kyle is. And this, this, this husband, he's a victim. I mean it just that the dynamic between Carole Baskin and her husband is crazy. It's incredible to me. It's like, oh my Lord, they've got. They should scare me the most of those show. He scares me the. Probably the most.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Really? Her husband.

[Brian Van Holt]

Why?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Because he's so willing to sort of do her bidding.

[Brian Van Holt]

The silent assassin man, the little creeper. I don't know, there's something about him. It just, just. I don't know. I hope I just doesn't get out and upset him but.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Silent assassin, little creeper.

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh that, that kind of behavior and stuff is more scary to me than the overtly like psychopaths, you know.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

What I mean, and the shotgun for Tampa or whatever he called his rifle, that was like the one we're going

[Brian Van Holt]

to Tampa did that Howard did or

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

who that Joe said, like, by the

[Brian Van Holt]

way, that was in our show. Yeah. That's funny. So, yeah, no, I'd rather have that feel safer in that kind of craziness than the other voice. Do you know what I mean?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes, I do.

[Brian Van Holt]

I do.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Because you know what to. There's something about consistency and you know, what to expect. It's like hitting you in the face.

[Brian Van Holt]

There you go.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

So even, you know, speaking about this, having the compassionate side and all, the character of Travis, who is one of Joe's husbands and then accidentally commit suicide, all of it. He's in an. He is also a very sympathetic character, I think. So was that like a big shift in both the. The storytelling but also in the reality? Like, tell me your thoughts on that.

[Brian Van Holt]

So my character, for John Rinke's character had a real connection with Travis in the show versus Carol. And I think so maybe in real life too. But it was a big moment in a shift in that story for our show and I think in there, in the history. For. For the. In reality, too. I think people started to wake up a little bit to certain be, you know, I don't know, to wake up some of the dark side of the. Of Joe's character. I think. I think a lot. I think from. I think Travis's death shifted a lot of people's how they perceive things.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right. Like, it's impossible to kind of brush that off or as you said, how John described things, like, I kind of tuned him out. Like, you can't really tune that out.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. And I think that, you know, Travis was a very beloved person on. On at the Zoo, from what I understand, for Joe to move on real fast from that also really wasn't a good look either. I think he got married to somebody else like a month or two later. Right.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I think Dylan. Yes, he married Dylan.

[Brian Van Holt]

Dylan. There you go. Yes. Which is, you know, interesting. But. Yeah, that. That, you know, and. But I love my. One of my favorite scenes and for me in the show was with Sam Keeley's character when I go back to. To visit him, to go see if he can go attend the trial. No way, no how. And he asked what Mike would I miss or ask him what he misses? And he misses the alligators and whatnot. And my character says, I miss Travis, but he had a real, real deep connection.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

That was a beautiful moment in the series. I was going to bring that up right before you said it. It's a lovely moment. You really feel like this man. Really. Like it's in your throat, you know, it's like.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah, it was. It was. Yeah. It's one of my favorite moments, too, for my. For me. For my character and for. For Sam, his character as well. And just over on the story overall, because he's. He's. He's expressing in a. In the, you know, most vulnerable way some. A lot of truths, I think, a lot of wisdom. He's kind of, you know, as Rinky does. He's. He's. He's laying down some. Some wisdom and some, you know, pure, like, you know, honesty and pureness, and it's. Yeah. Good moment for that guy, I thought.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes, I thought so, too. Yeah. They just said to me here that it was two months after. So Travis died in October, and Joe got married in December.

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh, geez. I mean, come on now. That's horrible. And I think I heard. Remember, like, one moment, the only people that attended the wedding. Which one of them was Travis's mom?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Really?

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. Crazy. I'm telling you.

[Nix Bra Advertiser]

Gosh.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. I was just thinking of Chelsea.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Chelsea, right.

[Brian Van Holt]

Alexandra Jensen, who's phenomenal. Absolutely.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

She's terrific.

[Brian Van Holt]

So good. Her character is so fascinating. I wanted more of her, too. Her character really calls him out for a.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes. She's the one who is living with his mom.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Right. Yes.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yes. Phenomenal actress. She's so good.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And she's just that. She's like a secret sniper, too, because she's not taking anything.

[Brian Van Holt]

One of my favorite characters. My other favorite moments of the whole show is her stuff with him. But she's able to really challenge him and call him out on his. In a way that really sinks in, I think.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes, yes. And it, like, it sinks in for him.

[Brian Van Holt]

Yes, for him. That's what I meant. For him.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Brian Van Holt]

Also, my buddy Dean Winters, Jeff Lowe. Dean's a good friend of mine.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, he's so good, too, in this. You just want to punch him in the face. He's awful. And he's so great in that scene when the FBI comes where he tries to switch it. Like, oh, Joe Exotic's a real bad guy. Like, just take care of him however you want to. And they're like, excuse me, sir. I feel like you've been arrested for a few things yourself.

[Brian Van Holt]

Exactly.

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes, open and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures [e-mail] have you heard about Klarna?

[Alisa Donovan]

Klarna is an app designed to make everyday spending simpler and more transparent. It gives you flexibility to decide how you want to pay, whether that's paying right away, paying later, or spreading payments over time, depending on what works best for you. Everything is managed in the corner Klarna app so you can keep track of purchases and stay organized. You can also discover deals and even earn cash back when you shop through the Klarna app with participating brands. It's all about flexibility and staying in control of how and when you pay Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance law license NMLS number 1353190 Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cashback Points. Limitations, Terms and conditions apply.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Do you think the show seems to give more backstory about Joe and Carol than the documentary? I mean, it definitely does, but did that change how you saw the dynamic between the two of them?

[Brian Van Holt]

Between Joe and Carol? Yeah, you Know, I think it did. I think it did. I felt like there's so much more to, you know. Yeah. It's interesting. Our show. Our show was based on the podcast, right? Yeah. And not the actual docu series. But then I'm sure we did, you know, our own, you know, interpretation and information and research and. But I feel like there's. I mean, I don't know. I. I feel like there's just more for me. It's an impossible question to answer because I just. There. There's so many unanswered questions and I want to see. I need to know more. I want to know more. I want more. I'm not. I'm not. You know, there's. And it's. I know the story is still going on too.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Brian Van Holt]

There's gonna be more. I guarantee you there's more down the road.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Van Holt]

But I left. I know. There's just so much to uncover and you can't do it in just one. You know, I don't know how many. I forget how many episodes we did. Eight. Nine. Eight.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Brian Van Holt]

Eight episode limited series. You know, there's.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I mean, there could be a season two because now he's got married again in jail. And then his partner, I think, was taken away by ice. Like, you can't.

[Brian Van Holt]

What?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yes. I just read it last night that

[Brian Van Holt]

you can't write this.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

You can't write it. And his husband left, did a sort of abstract drawing for him and he's like, so I guess he might be on Instagram from prison. Like, I can't.

[Brian Van Holt]

It honestly, like, we're done.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Just keep. Keeps going writing. And he's obsessed with getting married. I guess, like, it's kind of funny.

[Brian Van Holt]

Well, obviously super. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they'd say too. He's only happy. And that's what this is. How Rinky is too. Now it's all coming back to me. There was a moment when he's the only person that was okay with him getting married so fast after Travis, ironically, because it makes Joe happy. He. Joe snapped out of syndrome. He met Dylan. He was himself again. You know, that he's okay with that. But he. Yes. Person. That has to be. He's so insecure and so. Just so wounded and just so. Oof. That he's, you know, he needs. He needs to have another. You know, he needs to have.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Needs another. Yes. It said there. It's. He's active on Instagram from federal prison.

[Brian Van Holt]

And even in prison still just. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, there's a That's a.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

It's a narcissist.

[Brian Van Holt]

There's a lot narcissistic on the top shelf. I. I mean, to the nth degree. I mean, I know a lot of narcissistic people. Trust me. Related to a couple of them. But don't. We'll go. That's a separate podcast. All right.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I'm here for it.

[Brian Van Holt]

We'll have. We'll call it Therapy. How's that? Yeah, we. But that narcissism is just crazy. And a lot of them have to say. But that. Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Joe claims that he sends six to ten posts a day via mail from prison to his team to be posted. And saying what is posted on my social media comes from me and me only.

[Brian Van Holt]

Are there photographs with this?

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

I mean, we're gonna do a. I don't know. I know what you and I are doing as soon as we're done talking.

[Brian Van Holt]

I am. No, I really am. I'm gonna go on Instagram and search. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, what's so funny? That's reminding me to be careful. Like, if I remember what. What's the. The character's name that played Joel? Joel or. No, Joel played him. He's the big, heavyset guy with the funky hair.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yes. The one that turned FBI. Like, Witness Garrettson. Yes.

[Brian Van Holt]

That dude. He was. He. He reached out. He said. Super.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

He did.

[Brian Van Holt]

Totally, totally.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Wait. To you. He reached out to you?

[Brian Van Holt]

Yeah. Me personally.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

What did he say?

[Brian Van Holt]

Instagram. Instagram DM'd me. And then I. And thank God I had talked to Eton Franco, that producer, and he's like, do not engage. You cannot be. You know, because this is pretty early on. It's when I. Because I posted. I'm not a big social media person, but I did. I do post about work and whatnot. I posted that. I was just. I was so happy, so proud and so stoked to get this gig. I posted that, you know, I got this and I'm gonna be playing Rinky. And, you know, they did the, you know, whatever Variety article.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yep.

[Brian Van Holt]

And he's like, if it's really him, too late. He's like, hey, man, I'm so. And so I play this. Nice to see you. Congratulations on the job. That's awesome. But too bad you're playing such a dick. And then he went off and like, ripped Ricky. No, he's a backstabbing son of a big jed. Yeah. Just this went on and on.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Just ripping him a new.

[Brian Van Holt]

And I'm like, oh, wait.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

But he's the one that would. Became a witness for the FBI.

[Brian Van Holt]

He's like, there's a backstabber I could. I'm gonna go back and read it. It's. I still saved it in his projection. It's a classic projection. Yeah, yeah. We're calling him backstabbing unloyal. All this other stuff. I'm like, God, this. You're the first and only person to ever. That. That's. Ever early on or. No, it was actually after we got down to Australia to shoot it months in. Then when everybody started, other people were getting, you know, some certain characters were reaching out and people in that world, some of the other actors and people were on the show. But I just thought it was funny that. That guy. I haven't.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

It's like such a really, like, baiting you. Right? Like, hey, hey, great job.

[Brian Van Holt]

Anyway, yeah, I was. You know, I would. I wanted to reach out so bad, and I want to. Your version, dude. I want to hear what you got to say.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

That must have been so hard to not be allowed to respond. That would be.

[Brian Van Holt]

It was hard. But also, along with the. I don't know if I said this earlier. I meant to, but not just the litigious part, but also, like, I think that world is so scary and unpredictable, and they're pretty. You know, you don't want to really get too caught up or engage in that kind of. That kind of world, at least from my experience, because it's, you know, it's all fun and games, but there's some serious star people. Con man. Professional con artists. But yes. Anyway, We'll do a podcast and have somebody who. That's an idea. She do a podcast with the characters, the actor and the real person.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Oh, I'd love to have both of you on here.

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh, my God. Oh, wow.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for your time and for talking with me and you. You did beautiful work in this series, and it's a really interesting series because it's, like, a little bit fantastical. It's a little bit. You know, the way it's shot is unusual in many ways. Like, it's a. It's an interesting, you know, kind of commentary and then with also these very real moments in it. So you did a beautiful job.

[Brian Van Holt]

No, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. That means a lot.

[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Well, thank you. Jovi Carroll is streaming on Peacock. You can watch it now. And thank you so much, Brian.

[Brian Van Holt]

Oh, thank you.

[Alisa Donovan]

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[Brian Van Holt]

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[Interviewer (Podcast Host)]

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[Brian Van Holt]

Always good.

[Alisa Donovan]

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