Killer Thriller: Murdaugh Murders

Summary

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Killer Thriller: Murdaugh Murders

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: Elisa Donovan (produced by iHeartPodcasts)
Guests: Mandy Matney (Executive Producer, Murdaugh Death in the Family), Liz Farrell (Journalist/Co-creator, Murdaugh Murders Podcast)
Date: December 14, 2025

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Overview

In the premiere episode of Killer Thriller, host Elisa Donovan explores the dramatization of the real-life Murdaugh Murders case and its depiction in the Hulu series Murdaugh: Death in the Family. Joining Elisa are the powerhouse journalists Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell, whose investigative podcast helped crack open the real story. The discussion covers the emotional truths behind dramatizing true crime, the challenges of telling victim-centered narratives, the complexities of Southern power structures, and the interplay between real lives and their onscreen portrayals.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Why Start with the Murdaugh Murders? (02:55–05:21)

• Elisa emphasizes wanting to launch the podcast with this case because of its ethical storytelling, emotional complexity, and deep respect for all involved.
• Mandy and Liz express gratitude and share that bringing nuance to such a complicated, generationally wealthy, and corrupt family was a major feat.

“Somehow the family dynamics, the problems with growing up with generational wealth and no accountability, the list just is endless.”
— Elisa Donovan (04:17)

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2. The Line between Real Lives and Dramatization (07:02–10:23)

• Mandy shares the deeply personal impact of seeing her own brother’s death included in the Hulu show, advocating for emotional truth alongside factual accuracy.
• Britney Snow, playing Mandy, invested deeply in her character, going beyond the script and fighting for authentic representation.
• There were internal debates about how much of Mandy’s story should enter the narrative, but Britney’s commitment made a difference.

“She not only knew the entire podcast, but she knew my story… Britney advocated for the scene where I am at Steven’s memorial and mentioning my brother’s death.”
— Mandy Matney (07:44)

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3. From Podcast to Hollywood: Navigating Offers and the Creative Team (22:39–28:48)

• The sudden national attention after Alex Murdaugh’s roadside shooting in 2021 led to a flood of Hollywood interest, often with predatory offers (“sign now or your career is over!”).
• Mandy and Liz chose their agent for their protective approach, eventually connecting with documentarian Erin Lee Carr and writer Michael D. Fuller, both of whom grounded the production in emotional integrity and regional authenticity.
• The involvement of South Carolina native Michael D. Fuller, combined with Erin Carr’s victim-focused track record, helped ensure a respectful adaptation.

“The combination of Michael and Erin, they just felt different… refreshing and kind.”
— Mandy Matney (27:08)
“He [her husband] would take calls with people just to learn the language… the lingo that y’all use that nobody else understands.”
— Mandy Matney (23:08)

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4. Casting and Performances: Capturing True Character (28:48–34:27)

• Casting was contingent on star power—Patricia Arquette’s signing was the greenlight moment.
• Jason Clark’s portrayal of Alex (“You can’t take your eyes off him!”) was true to the real man’s imposing energy.
• Patricia Arquette’s Maggie mirrored “invisible labor”—a nuanced look at coercive control and erasure of self in a toxic marriage.
• The cast’s dedication to nuance helped avoid sensationalism and instead delivered multi-dimensional characters.

“She (Patricia Arquette) did a lot of research into coercive control and what it’s like to be in a relationship with a narcissist. And that is how she approached the role. And I thought that that was so genius.”
— Mandy Matney (33:07)

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5. The Challenge of Victim-Centered Storytelling (34:27–37:57)

• Mandy and Liz emphasize honoring victim wishes, never pushing them into the spotlight, but acting on their behalf.
• Maggie Murdaugh’s story was forgotten for so long; the show visualizes that dynamic, even showing the real-life tension with Mandy’s character.
• Liz discusses the obstacles in reporting in a community dominated socially and economically by the Murdaugh legacy.

“A lot of times when we put victims in the center, they’re actually in the background, but they’re in the background with us.”
— Liz Farrell (34:27)

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6. The Aftermath and the Accountability Question (53:08–55:36)

• The group reflects on the public’s fascination: Was it about finally seeing a powerful Southern man actually held accountable?
• They examine Paul’s character, once “easy to hate,” and how the show creates empathy for his struggles while never excusing his actions.
• The conversation touches on how generational privilege corroded the family from within.

“Before I watched this series, I was like, this is a bad kid… Something about watching that, you really see how he just had no help.”
— Elisa Donovan (54:16)

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7. Facing Backlash, Danger, and Small-Town Surveillance (66:57–71:32)

• Mandy and Liz were warned they could face retaliation for investigating—a real fear in isolated, insular Southern communities.
• They recount being followed by a state trooper while researching, revealing the ever-present intimidation and surveillance.
• The difficulty of “outsiders” (even interested fans) entering communities like Hampton—“you’re immediately clocked.”

“We were told they would [retaliate] and we were told to be very careful by, you know, sources in law enforcement…”
— Liz Farrell (67:17)

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8. Rebranding and the Philosophy behind 'True Sunlight' (72:51–76:45)

• Mandy and Liz discuss rebranding their podcast away from “Murdoch Murders” to “True Sunlight,” symbolizing the goal of bringing transparency and hope, rather than just cataloging crime.
• “Sunlight” is a term in journalism for exposing corruption—thus, “True Sunlight” signifies their shift to ongoing, real-time investigative work with engaged listeners.

“We were so sick of people saying, ‘all you ever do is Murdoch, you’ll never be anything past Murdoch.’ And we were like, ‘yes, we can. Watch us.’”
— Mandy Matney (73:31)
“Sunlight is a word that we use in journalism for transparency.”
— Liz Farrell (75:07)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Dramatization and Grief:
  “It was like the most insane moment of my life… Britney advocated for the scene where I am at Steven’s memorial and mentioning my brother’s death, and the speech was actually longer… she fought really hard to get the whole thing in.” — Mandy Matney (07:44)
• On Legacy and Power:
  “It’s not just something that is about a dirty man who, you know, stabs and kills his family. It’s really just to understand the amount of pressure that was on that man, and self-created, totally self-created.” — Liz Farrell (18:22)
• On Maggie’s Erasure:
  “Nobody knew anything about Maggie… her closest friends had trouble describing her. Ellic basically just described her as a woman and a mother of boys.” — Liz Farrell & Mandy Matney (47:25–48:00)
• On Justice:
  “I think the saddest part of it is that our state… has not used this moment as something to get better... We have not learned the lesson.” — Mandy Matney (65:14)
• On Community Surveillance:
  “It was a cop that was following us… it’s such a rural and desolate place that when somebody is following you, it’s very obvious.” — Mandy Matney (70:13)

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Important Timestamps

• Meet Mandy & Liz, and the show’s aim (02:55–05:21)
• Personal loss making it onto TV (07:02–10:23)
• Ethics and emotional truth in adaptation (13:46–15:40)
• Hollywood comes calling; the road to Hulu (22:39–28:48)
• Casting, Patricia Arquette and “emotional labor” (28:48–34:27)
• Victim-centeredness in true crime media (34:27–37:57)
• Navigating power, privilege, and accountability (53:08–55:36)
• Retaliation and the reality of reporting in the rural South (66:57–71:32)
• True Sunlight: rebranding for transparency (72:51–76:45)

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Conclusion

This inaugural episode of Killer Thriller delivers a thoughtful, in-depth look at how true crime stories are brought from podcast to screen, focusing on the humanity of those involved—victims, perpetrators, investigators, and their families. The discussion is candid, moving, and packed with behind-the-scenes insights. Listeners gain a profound understanding of the delicate balance between telling a compelling story and honoring real lives, as well as the dangers, challenges, and responsibilities shouldered by the reporters behind the headlines.

Where to listen:

• True Sunlight podcast (Thursdays)
• Cup of Justice podcast (Tuesdays)

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For those fascinated by true crime adaptations, journalistic ethics, and the social dynamics of power, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer.

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Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.

[B]

Hey everybody. Welcome to the very first episode of the Killer Thriller podcast. I am your host Elisa Donovan and I am so excited to start this journey. Killer thriller is going to explore the dramatizations of real life crimes through the lens of the actors, creators, and the people whose stories make it onto the screen. And we're really going to dive into how real human behavior, often extreme and sometimes horrifying, can get transformed into character performance and narrative. And I cannot express how thrilled I am that today, this very first episode, we are going to speak with the creators of the Murdoch Murders podcast, Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell. These women are incredible journalists who broke open the case. So their podcast, the Murdoch Murders Podcast, is what inspired this series, Murdoch Death in the Family, and that is what we're gonna be talking about today. Mandy is the executive producer of Murdoch Death in the Family, which is streaming on Hulu right now. And let's bring him in.

[A]

Hi.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

How are you?

[B]

I'm great. How are you?

[A]

I'm really good. It's so nice to meet you.

[B]

It is such a pleasure to meet you, Mandy. I'm Elisa. I'm wildly proud to meet the two of you. And I really want to say how, when we first started talking about doing this podcast, I said we have to start with Murdoch Death in the Family. That's what I want to start with. Because, you know, this series in particular, it embodies to me everything that matters about these sorts of stories. There is such an utter respect for everyone who's involved and the drive to tell the emotional truth of the story and really diving into the nuance and the complexity of every person involved, really, which I think is quite a feat. Somehow the family dynamics, the problems with growing up with generational wealth and no accountability, the list just is endless. And so I'm really, truly thrilled that you two are taking your time with me today. So thank you.

[C]

Thank you. That was really nice.

[A]

Yeah, thank you. That was so nice. And I have to say, I watched Clueless last night just for a refresher.

[C]

For a total 180?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, for a total 180. And I meant to rewatch Sabrina the Teenage Witch because that was also one of my favorites when I was a little girl. So this is awesome. So we really appreciate all everything that you just said. It's been quite a feat. But we're here and we're ready to dive in.

[C]

Also, I just want to note that I saw Clueless in the theater, so I love it.

[B]

We're all old, but I'm a lot older than the two of you.

[A]

That's her job.

[B]

No, you're not.

[A]

Your skin looks so good. I'm so jealous.

[B]

Oh, listen, a little tweak on the filter of Zoom does, like, wonders for all of us.

[A]

I need to get that figured out.

[B]

Well, I wanted to say first, because it's top of mind. This is not what I was planning to start with, but I saw on Instagram last night, Mandy, your post that it was the anniversary of your brother's passing, and I didn't know that that piece was real from your life, that that part of that scene in the series came from you. I didn't know that. So first I wanted to just express my condolences to you. And I know grief is a very roller coaster of a journey and it never really ends, and so I just want to send my love to you on that. But I also am wondering if you are willing to just talk a little bit about that. And I think you were saying that Brittany really helped to keep that in there.

[A]

Yeah. Gosh. And thank you for asking that because I've done a ton of interviews about Murdoch death and the family, and nobody has asked about that. And I really want to talk about that scene. I love that scene. It meant so much to me. And I actually got to watch Britney perform that scene. But circling back when I first met Britney and she first called me when it was like a green light that it was for real, she was playing me, which, by the way, was like the most insane moment of my life.

[B]

That was going to be my question later of, like, did you just completely freak out when Whit was like, oh, yeah, Britney Snow's going to be me?

[A]

I mean, yes, I am a typical millennial girly. Like, I grew up watching John Tucker Must Die and Pitch Perfect and all of her hits, and I'm obsessed with her. And I. What? And also this. We found all of us out before the Hunting Wives came out and she, like, blew up again, which I'm so happy that she did. She is has the career that she deserves right now, and I just absolutely love her and could not imagine a better person to play me. And I really do mean that. And this story is a part of that. So she. She wanted to call me the first time that we connected on Instagram and she was like, I just want to get to know you. I want to have margaritas with you and Liz, because she read that in my book that that's how Liz and I used to, like, dissect cases over margaritas. She devoured my book in, like, two days. And when she called me, she knew that much about my life and was wanting to ask me questions about my brother's death, which was just, you know, surprising and really, really refreshing to hear that she wanted to dive that deep into my character. You know, she wasn't just glossing over everything, and this wasn't a huge part for her. She wasn't a main role or any. But she not only knew the entire podcast, but she knew my story. And there were. I don't know how much I can say about this, but there was a lot of debate back and forth within Hulu about how much of a role I should have in the show because I was also an executive producer. And I know that they were a little weird, the higher ups, about me having a storyline and how much of it. But Brittany advocated for the scene where I am at Steven's memorial and mentioning my brother's death, and the speech was actually longer and it was even better, and they cut some of it, and it made her really mad, and she fought really hard to get the whole thing in and. But my gosh, like, to have. As, you know, as an actor, they don't have to do that much. They don't have to. They don't have to, but the good ones do. And I just was so grateful that I had such a good actor that cared so much about my story. And she actually texted me to apologize that the scene was cut, like it was her fault. And I was like, oh, my gosh. No.

[B]

I mean, this is like, welcome to Hollywood. You know, it's so frustrating in so many ways. There's so many beautiful things that come out of, you know, this world, but sometimes it's like you watch something, and as an actor, this has happened to me a million times. I'm like, oh, that whole scene's gone. What happened to the one where I was in the bathroom? You know, so, like, these things, they really do. They're hard. It's like, you know, they say, like, killing your babies, but it's like a. Inevitably, everything always serves the story. Like, that's the goal. And that lesson, that piece of having to let go of certain things in order to drive something forward, you kind of over time, see, oh, okay. I understand why they had to do that, you know, but that is a real challenge. So for both of you, this is one of my biggest questions of how. How hard was it or enlightening or beautiful was it to watch these things both in. In the process, but then the finished saying, you know, you guys, you women lived this in such a real way, and there has to be sort of A like, how was it to watch these people embody these people that many of whom, you know.

[C]

I'll think the first thing that's. So I still haven't gotten the connection here, but we used to sit and joke about this being a TV show one day, the work we were doing, like, and not with any sort of sense of it. Even though, like, hopes and dreams and like, you do hope one day maybe that your work is that important or consequential that it does end up in that format. It just. I still haven't, I still haven't grasped that, that like Liz and Mandy, like back then, I just want to, like, time travel and be like, it's going to happen.

[B]

It's actually not a joke, like, warms my heart, but I really feel like these are the things that, I mean, I'm going to. Don't want to get too woo woo about this, but I do believe there are certain things that are meant to happen, certain people that are meant to meet, projects that are meant to go, like, all of these kinds of things. And this clearly is something that was meant to be. And you know, I've just rewatched as much as I could. I had already seen the series, but I rewatched most of it last night and this morning. And the scene towards the end where Mandy, you and Mark and he asks you if you feel guilty. And I felt the same way. Like, Britney's expression is like, what. You know, this sort of like, of all the things that I could feel because it just feels so vital what the two of you did. But again, that nuance, this is something that I think the series does so beautifully, is it captures that nuance of he can feel a little guilty. Like, that's a real feeling for this man. Perhaps you know that because you don't nobody. It's all so awful. But it's important to bring all these things to light. Like, the justice was served because of all of you.

[A]

Well, thank you for that. And that scene is another really interesting tidbit that the writers obviously, I never knew how you make an actual true crime into a TV show and like, what needs to be factual, what changes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But our amazing creator and showrunner, Michael D. Fuller, always stuck to the concept of emotional truth. And that was true throughout the show. And so there was always an emotional truth to every little part of the show, including that scene. And it was funny. Like, Mark Tinsley never asked me that question, but I actually got that question in a 2020 interview in. Oh, my gosh, 2020. 1. Did you know I was coming?

[B]

No, because I can imagine that, like, what.

[A]

It was my first interview ever. And, like, I was so nervous. And I had been interviewing with 20. I think it was like two hours. And it was. I was just a nervous wreck. And then the last question was that. And I just was like. And I mean, thank God for everybody. I think that they did not include it in the show. But I kind of want that footage to see my face and my reaction because I was like. It was just like, Britney's like, no, but they wanted to include somebody asking me that question because that was a real question that we got. And we still, to this day. Liz, I mean, I don't know about you, but I still get weird messages that are like, if you. I got. I got a weird TikTok comment the other day that was like, if you didn't poke around and get into the Murdoch's business and Maggie and Paul would be alive. Lord.

[B]

And then. And I would love to take. Not that we want to give anybody the time of day who does these sorts of things on TikTok, but I would love to take that, like, that idea. Right? Take it all the way to the end. Okay, great. So let's say you didn't do that. The trail of other, like, deceit, deception and death and pain and brutality, that would have come anyway. It just would. It would be a different shade of it. Like, this man was an abomination. He was doing horrible things. And there was. He was not going to stop doing those things unless someone prohibits him. So I just like, that stuff makes me crazy.

[A]

I think.

[C]

Well, that conversation that happened between Mandy and Mark on screen happened between Mark and me behind the scenes. So I think that there's sort of like a combination.

[A]

Yeah, we had a combo, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

There was a. It was a concern, and not because of anything that I think I, you know, bear. It's just. It was just something that comes up. And I think that's what's important about the way this show is handled. And it really honors the point of our journalism, which is that. And this is how this podcast started, by the way, that Mandy started this podcast to clear the. To get the truth out there, to say this isn't just a true crime story that you can fly in, cover the most salacious aspects of, and think that you got the story, and you certainly could do that. But with this case, there was so much more to understand, and Mark Tinsley certainly understood it, which is that the entire economy, social economy, legal economy in that area relied on the Murdochs and was controlled by the Murdochs in. In the most silent of ways. So it's not like you can say, and you saw it in the conversation that Ellic had with his mother's caretaker. It's not a direct, like, I need you to lie for me. It's a, you know, to lie for me. And you know, because I'm saying these things, but it. If you were to repeat them back, I never asked you. So that's kind of what people in the area were dealing with. And we lived an hour and a half from Hampton, but we were in the judicial circuit, so we knew it was affecting law enforcement in our area as well. So it's something that, I mean, 86 years, 100 years of this kind of informal rule, kind of to capture that. I think that's the success of death in the family. Because it's not just something that is about a dirty man who, you know, his staffs and he kills his family. It's really just to understand the amount of pressure that was on that man and self created, totally self created.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And why he would think that was a good solution to his problems.

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[A]

So in 2021, Liz was working at the sheriff's office when my husband and I started the podcast. But she was definitely with me behind the scenes for everything. For every, like phone call that I would get from weirdos, I would call them Hollywood weirdos. Like, right? And I would call her and like be like this guy, da da da da. And she would be like, don't call them. And.

[C]

My little town girl, like, this.

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Small town girl who didn't know.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. And they said the most insulting things to me. Like, they just thought that I. Yeah, they thought I was just this little small town journalist who had big dreams of living in New York City and wanted my. Literally, people said that to me and really just want. And like, they really thought I just wanted to get out of South Carolina. And I'm like, I really like it here. Like, I. I don't like the politics, but, like, I live on Hilton Head. It's a nice area. Right, Right. I like my life here and I like what I do. I just. Anyways, we. And my husband was amazing. My husband was. There is Covid was not full time working at the time, but he just kind of figured out how to navigate Hollywood. He was a genius about it. He would take phone calls with people just to, like, learn the language. Yeah. Or Lear. Like the. The lingo that y' all use that, like, nobody else understands.

[C]

He would take, like, smoke and hairs.

[A]

Yeah. And so we spent kind of a whole summer just taking meetings and phone calls from people. And. And then In September of 2021, everybody was still kind of on the fence. Like, maybe I'll do a documentary. Maybe I'll do a show. I don't know. In September 2021, when Alex Murdock faked his little roadside shooting debacle. And that was just ridiculous.

[B]

The story never not be crazy. Yeah, right.

[A]

Whenever I say it out loud, I'm like, when that happened, Stupid. But when that happened, the story went from 0 to 2000. Like, it exploded into the outer universe in a way that I had never seen anything before in my life. And so at that point, all of these people, all these documentary people were like, it's go time. We need to. We need you to sign. And everybody was just kind of swooping in and hovering over us and pressuring us, and it was really weird. And at that point, we decided to get an agent. This man named Neil Cohen, which I know people go back and forth about agents. He was at UTA at the time. He saved our lives because, like, these people were pressuring us. Specifically documentary people were pressuring us to sign the. Sign away everything and be a consultant to them. And it was on a Saturday, and I never forget. And we. And he was just calling and calling and was like, you need to sign now. It's now or never, Mandy. And like, and if you don't sign this, your career's over. Like, those Types of things. So we actually hired Neil and the first thing that he did was email this guy back on a Saturday. It is Saturday, period. No one in Hollywood needs anything right now.

[C]

That's so great.

[A]

It's a Saturday period. And we were like hired. Anyways, Neil connected us with Aaron Lee Carr. Neil, one of Neil's clients was Aaron Lee Carr, an amazing documentarian. And Liz and I had been watching her. Her documentaries for years. And Liz, what was your reaction?

[B]

What. Which documentaries has she done?

[C]

Well, Hearts of Gold was the one that really pushed me over the edge. Mommy Dead and Dearest, which I believe that's what it's the Gypsy Lee Rose story.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

There was another one. Mandy, I love you now.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, God, I love you now die. So good if you haven't seen it.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

I didn't realize.

[C]

Britney versus Spears.

[A]

Yeah, Britney versus Spears. So we knew her from all of. Because we were like obsessed with these documentaries that she'd done and we had talked about them all at great length with each other. And I remember being so nervous to meet her for the first time. And when I first met her, it was originally we were talking about doing a documentary, but Aaron got the idea of like, I want to do something besides document what I of. It was a scripted show. And then through that she met Michael D. Fuller, who is not only a great guy and a really great writer, but he's from South Carolina. And so that combination of. And I knew that Aaron could tackle really, really difficult true crime stories, specifically involving women. I knew that she. She was not in a. She was not in the true crime space of like, whodunnit, you know, the swooping, boring stuff. She was really good at very complicated cases and staying factual and staying victim focused. And the combination of Michael and Aaron, they just felt different. It was just like from all of the phone calls that we had that summer and everybody else was just so exhausting and so typical Hollywood quote unquote. Michael and Erin were just refreshing and kind. And it wasn't until last year that it was actually greenlit in September 2024. And then the ball just went rolling. And Liz and I, a year ago, I think this week we went to LA and saw the writers room.

[B]

Jason Clark is. I don't even. I have no words. Like, next level. This man's performance, it's like an arc of a madman. Like you actually see. I just, just. He's incredible in this show on every level. Everybody's wonderful, but I am just. I was like blown away by him.

[C]

You can't take your eyes off of him.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's captivating and it really is true to who Alec was. To some people, that. That.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Energy that, you know, I. I want to see what he does next because it's going to be not great, but interesting. Yeah, that, like, energy, because Mandy and I first saw him in person during Paul's first hearing in 2019, and the way he came onto the scene was exactly as we both expected him to, but even more so. So he was a huge presence in this tiny courtroom and thought nothing of going up to the beach family and shaking their hand as if they were at church. And, like, this was no big deal and clapping him, you know, on the back and that sort of thing. And just.

[B]

It really.

[C]

Jason really captured that feeling. And you're right.

[B]

It's like.

[C]

It's ineffable. You just don't know how to describe it, but it's. It's.

[B]

It.

[C]

You get on a ride and you take it with him, you know, and.

[B]

You feel like this is why another. It's so brilliant because you see how this man is slowly losing control, like, slowly unraveling, and then how that gets more escalated and the dynamic just becomes more extreme. And his. I just. It's incredible. So how did he come to the show? How did he get involved?

[A]

Jason. So with Jason, I'm. I'm not exactly sure. I just remember a very chaotic period last year when Aaron would call me and say we were close to an actor, and then it would fall through and we were not greenlit until we got Patricia Arquette. And. But I also loved that because she was the reason why it was great. I love that it was led by. Yes.

[B]

That it was so.

[A]

And she's number one on the call sheet. Like, Patricia was the queen of our show, and I absolutely love that.

[B]

Casting contingent. That's what they call it.

[C]

Like you.

[A]

Casting contingent. Yes, it was casting contingent for a long time. And I remember, and I'll just say, I can't say the names, but there were several big names that would come in and we would get really excited and be like, oh, that's gonna be great. And then it would fall through. And that happened for a while, but then Patricia Arquette and then Jason Clark signed on pretty soon after Patricia, and.

[B]

I love that it was her. Oh, I love that.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I do, too. I really do. And she is also just so wonderful. So, like, as much as we talk about how great Jason is in the show, we have to talk about Patricia, because Patricia kind of played the opposite of that. Like, she played a role that was quiet and a role that was like, you can. She was constantly doing these little movements that you could tell there was no space for Maggie in that household and that there was. She just played that part so beautifully and eloquently. And so they were like the opposites of each other. He was this big, giant presence taking up all the air, and she was just. Her entire life revolved around him. And she slowly started to realize that that was the wrong move.

[B]

Yep. Right. Slowly realizing all the things that I thought, this is what I want my life to be. Actually looking around and realizing, oh, this is what my life is. It's so. I love that scene where she. The two of them, she. After the party, and she's like, you think I'm doing these things for myself? You know, all of it. And I felt like there is something so identifiable to so many women to. I identify with that feeling. You know, I throw dinner parties and do things, and I'm like, this is not for. Wait a second.

[A]

Invisible labor. Yeah, invisible labor is right. And that was Patricia's basically her whole role. So, I mean, and Jason was wonderful and amazing, but Patricia, I was just extremely impressed by not only her taking on the role of Maggie, but she did a lot of research into coercive control and what it's like to be in a relationship with a narcissist. And that is how she approached the role. And I thought that that was so genius.

[B]

She really. The nuance that she brought to it is really something, because you see how there were so many moments where you as a viewer. I felt, oh, this is when she's gonna, like, really lose it on him or she's gonna. And then swallows it.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

As what she, like, takes the next step. You know, that stuff is. And that's really how. This is why this show is so great, all the nuance of these people. And, you know, you two are both very committed to putting the victims at the center of these stories. So I feel like that's what this looks like. But my question is, for you guys, what does that look like for you? And this is probably part of it. Yes.

[C]

Yeah, I think this is part of it. This is the end of it, though. A lot of times when we put victims in the center, they're actually in the background, but they're in the background with us. And I don't want to give away too much in life, but it's important that we are honoring what the victims want, in terms of the type of coverage we do, we don't force them to. You know, when I say force, we don't put them on the spot to come on the show and talk and explain themselves in any way. We very much consider how that we're acting on their behalf, I guess, is the best way to say it. So there's things that we can do that they can't do because, you know, of an ongoing case or, you know, family dynamics, and that was the case in the Murdoch family, even. There are people behind the scenes that we were talking with who could not be out loud about their grief about Maggie and Paul, because to do so would be an affront to the family. So I think sometimes victim centered, we're able to tell the victim's story, but sometimes it takes a while to get there because what we're doing is the work of where crime meets corruption. So we're trying to make change and get these investigations looked at or I hate to say shame people, but we have. Sometimes we have to shame people to do their jobs. And so that's for the victims.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Mandy, what I'm saying, yeah, totally.

[A]

And, yeah, I mean, I just think about, like, with Maggie, her story was so forgotten for such a long time, and I actually really, I liked that they ended up showing that Maggie did not like the Mandy character in the show because that was true to form. Maggie blocked me on Instagram years ago. She did, Yeah. I know that she did not like for a fact that she did not like me, but I look back too, on that, and I'm like, we could have been taking down the same monster together, you know, like, it was. We all had the same enemy at the same time. And I don't blame her for thinking that I was the enemy because she. She was just trying to protect her kids.

[C]

Right.

[B]

She's trying to preserve her family, her own life. Like, she's so deeply embedded in it.

[A]

Right. And so that's another, like, nuance that I had to think about and stop about. Like, first I was like, I don't really like being this. It's a little uncomfortable. But when I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, we were. We had the same enemy all along, and it's just too bad. And I hope that that's a message for women that, like, actually just look at your husband. Your husband's probably in the fall. Not most women. I have a great husband.

[B]

Right, so do I. But, you know, there are a lot that are not right.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Like, I look back on that, I'm like, huh, that's just so sad. And that's where Maggie, unfortunately, like the entire series just goes through this cautionary tale of what is happening to a woman when she realizes that she's married to a very bad man. And. And unfortunately, by the time she realized it, it was too late for her.

[D]

Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control? So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other other after 20 years or 25 years. Like the Beatles broke up in seven and a half years and we're going on 35. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to buy your way? Of course you do. That's why CarMax offers an experience designed just for you. Want to start online, then visit the lot, then go back online? Sure. Want to talk to a real person or chat online? Either works. Want to take your time and compare all the makes and models? No problem. Then make up some time by filling out the paperwork at home and schedule express pickup or home delivery done. When it comes to how you buy, CarMax puts you in the driver's seat. Want to drive? CarMax delivery restrictions apply. See CarMax.com for details.

[A]

Stay cozy, stay home and save big online during Lowe's December deal drops. Because honestly, why go anywhere when the deals come to you?

[B]

Check this out.

[A]

Lowe's is going to give you two free select tools from dewalt, Craftsman or Cobalt when you buy a select battery or combo kit. Yep, two tools free.

[B]

It's basically a holiday miracle.

[A]

Plus rewards members get free standard shipping all month long. Yet another reason not to leave your couch. Kick back, click around. Let the savings roll in. Shop New December deal drops on lowe's.com every week this month. Fresh deals, cozy vibes, zero effort. Breaking news, everybody.

[B]

Not everything is terrible.

[A]

I repeat, not everything is terrible. The ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the Internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely.

[D]

Clean the world. We have almost 10,000 hotels that operate our soap and plastic recycling program and we have created and distributed 90 million free bars of soap to children, families, mothers in 127 countries across the globe.

[B]

Hello. It's like magic you guys.

[A]

So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me, Jenna for the ripple effect.

[B]

It's a reminder that you can start.

[A]

A ripple that changes everything. You really can.

[D]

Best stat of all is that the death rate to children under the age of five dying to hygiene related illnesses has decreased by more than 60% since the day we started.

[A]

Listen to the ripple effect with Jenna.

[B]

Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[A]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

The holidays are back at Starbucks. So share the season with a peppermint mocha, Starbucks signature espresso, velvety mocha and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls together is the best place to be at Starbucks. And her sister. I was so moved by J. Smith Cameron, another I mean just like one of the best, the best that position that she held right of being the last person to the last conversation with her and sort of that guilt that she must feel but how complicated that is that it's like you can't change, you can't change someone else's decisions. We can't make it for her. So even though I'm sure she witnessed so many things over the years in the dynamic of that relationship that at a certain point you accept this is the choice my sister has made and you kind of have to go with that. And you know, it's such a strange place to be of not endorsing. But then are you endorsing like I think about her that sister a lot and how what her pain must be like and how she goes through the world today. It's so yeah, it's complicated.

[A]

Yeah. I know several murder victims friends at this point that they're and that their husbands, the victims husbands killed them and, and it is so sad, so profoundly sad to see them going through the process of grief and regret about like what could I have done? What did I miss? And then the men don't feel anything like they're not going through any of that at all. But the friends and the sisters and the people that really cared about these victims, I've just really noticed that in the past few years. It's just so incredibly sad because they are stuck. And I also don't know what the right move is when you're in Jay Smith Cameron's case, like Maggie's sister's case, rather, what do you do?

[C]

Well, especially because he went and lived with Maggie's family after the murder, so he. In that part. I don't believe that. That wasn't in the show.

[A]

That wasn't in the show.

[C]

He did.

[A]

Yeah, he did. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. This is another. It's like my mind is.

[C]

Yeah, it's narcissism. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

He wanted to, like, monitor. Narcissistic.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. What sled. He wanted to. He wanted to monitor them to see, like, if they knew anything about his relationship with Maggie, I think.

[B]

And also just his presence around them. And again, that abusive. The psychological abuse and the emotional abuse. They, I'm sure, just felt like, oh, this is a reminder. I just need to stay in my place.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To not make waves.

[C]

You got to pretend to be the grieving husband and all that to make it difficult for them to believe. But ultimately, like his sister said on the stand, you know, I wanted to find out who killed my sister. And this man was excited about charges being dropped against Paul. And, you know, it just. It didn't add up. It didn't seem like he was looking, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

At all. And I think just ultimately the most important thing to her was her relationship with Buster, which I think the show captured beautifully, and just that sort of line that she had to walk with him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. I feel like one of the reasons I am so interested in doing this podcast is because I am fiercely curious about human behavior and how and why we do the things that we do. And. And in the actors that are portraying these people, there is. I've thought about how it is such an important service that they're doing, but, like, there's a real responsibility that they have when you're playing a real person in any situation. But certainly with cases like this where these people have gone through trauma, they. They are still. Either still going through it, or the family is. And so what kind of extra responsibility do you think that they have towards, you know, people that are. That are still grieving, that are still seeking justice, that are still reporting these things?

[C]

I think just one. That's a conversation that I have with myself a lot and sometimes with Mandy, too. But who owns the story is something that. That sticks with me a lot. And I know it's a conversation we had with Amanda Knox, you know, whose story is this to tell? Because the truth is we are journalists who were working on the case, so we have a story to tell. And this is our story. And. But it's also. Every single person that was represented in the show has a story to tell from their perspective as well. So I think we lucked out. And that's what makes the show so good, is that every single. I mean, right down to the most minor of roles, these people took their role seriously. And, you know, even Alicia Kelly, who played me, like, there were moments I was watching her perform and I was like, oh, my God, I really do sound like that. It's things that you don't pick up on, I think, about yourself. But I do think that there was a lot of philosophical conversation going on with the actors and themselves about, you know, especially with Johnny and his portrayal of Paul. I mean, that was like, he's another one.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[C]

My gosh. Yeah. Yeah, he had to.

[B]

He.

[C]

They had. I mean, they really. Patricia Arquette had a character that was very difficult to play because nobody knew anything about Maggie.

[B]

That's what I was going to say. She.

[C]

Nobody.

[B]

There isn't really much to know about her. Like, nobody knew.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Even her closest friends had trouble describing her. And, you know, as we've said many times on our podcast, Ellic basically just described her as a woman on the.

[A]

When he literally on the sand, he said, a woman and a mother of boys.

[B]

O m. And he.

[A]

Of all the things to mention about his lovely. What you. You would think that you would have, you know, things to say about your dead wife on the stand as you are fighting for your life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You would think that you would, like, come up in your head at least a couple nice sentences. But, yeah, a woman, a mother of boys. And then he said she had a lot of hard times when she was pregnant, and it's like he wanted more kids.

[B]

What?

[A]

And it's like pregnant, like, 25 years ago. Why are you mentioning that?

[B]

Right. Like, that's how he identifies her.

[A]

Exactly. Like this woman, mother of my boys and couldn't have enough of my kids. So it's hard. Her fault. Unbelievable. Like, and I don't even know what the.

[C]

What we were talking about Patricia. So it was like Maggie was kind of an enigma. And ultimately, we know that's because he didn't give her space to really be her own person. And I think that conversation, even with her sister on the way to Moselle or before going to Moselle, it feels like they didn't have the kind of relation. They had a really close relationship. They talked all the time. But there's a. There's a bridge. You're crossing. When you tell somebody, especially your. Your family member, that you're having relationship problems or.

[B]

And it's a point, you can't take it back. Right. Once it's out. Yes, it's out. And then.

[A]

Right. And they're gonna hate them forever. Yep. That's how everybody. That's kind of an unspoken thing that women all have to deal with. It's like once you tell your friend that you are in an abusive relationship and all the terrible things that your partner is doing, your friend is never going to forgive him for that. So you can't take it.

[B]

Makes it real.

[C]

You have to do.

[A]

It makes it too real. Right. Where you can just shove it to the side and let it eat you up inside. Which I think was a lot of Maggie's personality. I think that he was just eating her up inside.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

Yeah. She actually had cancer too, shortly before she died. And was. Was throat cancer. Right, Mandy?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

When you think about the symbolism of that. Right, right.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, right? It was. Yeah. And I think some of the best little stories that we got about Maggie that Liz got from her friends were from college before she really was in a relationship with Alex. So, like, I think that because they describe this very bright and bubbly personality. Funny. What. Where other. Like, silly.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

She's kind of a different.

[B]

Different.

[A]

Just a different person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Alex was the quarterback and was the big man on campus and just swept her off her feet and she never looked back.

[C]

They tried to get her to stop dating him. And I think that that's. You don't talk about enough. Yeah. She had a really. A little friend intervention in college where he. Because he would get rough with her, you know, but she. She thought, you know, this was the guy for her. So it's just that. That makes me so sad to think of myself too. Like, you have. You don't realize at that time in your life that you have so much left of it. Yeah, no, exactly.

[B]

It feels like this is the beginning of the end or something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they can't see outside of what's immediately surrounding you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right. And especially at that time, like, women were just basically told, like, college is like your time. You gotta. You gotta pick one, otherwise you're gonna be this.

[B]

Actually to be educated.

[A]

It's time to choose a husband. And there she was. And like, I could also understand that when people. I think Patricia Arquette asked me what, what. Why do you think Maggie was attracted to Alex? And I was like, they started Dating when they were 19, 20 years old. So think of yourself, right? Think of your little brain. Everybody had. I had a very tiny brain when I was 19 and dated very terrible people. And it's fine now, thinking back on it, because my brain's developed and I just thank God that I did not stay with those people, you know, Like, I. But Maggie had to stay with that. Ended up staying with him for the rest of her life. And that was just. It was kind of the way that. And also, I think, sadly, I bet a lot of women envied her because she was marrying a Murdoch and she was marrying the big man on campus, and she was marrying this man that was so funny and full of life and had all this money and his family, had all this power. I'm sure she was very much envied at the time. And now you look back and it's just such a tragedy.

[B]

Oh, I mean, this is, I think, why people continue to be so obsessed and interested in this particular case. You know, we're always looking, I think, for sort of. Of. To understand. That's what I'm looking for, right? Like, I wanna. I wanna understand why or how. And. And sometimes that is such a labyrinth of, like, you just can't. It's. It's endless.

[C]

And you think it's also about the accountability, though. I think as a nation, when everyone is watching this, I don't know that we are all used to seeing a man with Alex. Power and pedigree, I guess we could call it, be held accountable for something so heinous. And do you think that, like, when you're watching it, is that what you're getting from, like.

[B]

I think that it's like, I can't. I can't believe it. I think that's what it sort of feels like is, oh, my God, did he really. Is he really being held accountable now? Is that really happening?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because when you look at, you know, the whole. The kids especially, I think, like, well, these boys, that was their example of what it is to be a man, what it is to be a father, what it is to just live. They had no guidelines. It was like, this is. Anything you do, we can. If it's bad, we'll take it away. You don't have to be like, that scene where Paul, the first moment he's brought into court and all they do is arraign him, I think is what's happening, and he just goes, is it over now? Now?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As if, like, that's all I have to do. I just show up and now it's over.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

It's so telling of. And that's, you know, his. His performance also is so beautiful in that way because you really do feel like. I never thought I would have any compassion before. Before I watched this series, I was like, this is a bad kid. He's spoiled. He's a train wreck. He's my worst nightmare. Like, I have no sympathy for this kid. And something about watching that, you really see how he just had no help. And then he was trying to keep friends, you know, and that sort of like, now it doesn't excuse him in any way for the things that he did, but it explains it. You know, it's a little bit of an explanation. And I think this is also the thing, like, we all, from the human standpoint, we all at a certain point have to grow up and these like that. He. He never grew up. Alec never did it. He just decided I don't have to. You know, It's. It's really crazy.

[D]

Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control? So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. The Beatles broke up in seven a half years, and we're going on 35. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Wanna buy your way? Of course you do. That's why CarMax offers an experience designed just for you. Want to start online, then visit the lot, then go back online? Sure. Want to talk to a real person or chat online? Either works. Want to take your time and compare all the makes and models? No problem. Then make up some time by filling out the paperwork at home and schedule. Express pickup or home delivery done. When it comes to how you buy, CarMax puts you in the driver's seat. Want to drive? CarMax delivery restrictions apply. See CarMax.com for details.

[A]

Stay cozy, stay home and save big online during Lowe's December deal drops because honestly, why go anywhere when the deals come to you?

[B]

Check this out.

[A]

Lowe's is going to give you two free select tools from dewalt, Craftsman or Cobalt when you buy a select battery or combo kit. Yep, two tools free. It's basically a holiday miracle. Plus rewards members get free standard shipping all month long. Yet another reason not to leave your couch. Kick back, click around, let the savings roll in. Shop New December deal drops on lowe's.com every week. This month, fresh deals, cozy vibes. Zero effort. Effort. Breaking news, everybody.

[B]

Not everything is terrible.

[A]

I repeat, not everything is terrible. The Ripple Effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the Internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely.

[D]

Clean the world. We have almost 10,000 hotels that operate our soap and plastic recycling program and we have created and distributed 90 million free bars of soap to children, families, mothers in 127 countries across the globe.

[B]

Globe. It's like magic, you guys.

[A]

So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me, Jenna, for the Ripple Effect.

[B]

It's a reminder that you can start.

[A]

A ripple that changes everything. You really can.

[D]

Best stat of all is that the death rate to children under the age of five dying to hygiene related illnesses has decreased by more than 60% since the day we started.

[A]

Listen to the Ripple Effect with Jenna.

[B]

Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[A]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

The holidays are back at Starbucks, so share the season with a peppermint mocha, Starbucks signature espresso, velvety mocha and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

[A]

One of my favorite on set. I mean, he is a wonderful human being and an amazing person. So, Liz, you were with me on set when we. When I met him for the first time. Yeah.

[B]

Did you meet everybody on set for the first time or you met Brittany before?

[A]

Yes, we met Brittany before. It just would depend because we were scared of Jason. Yeah, I literally never. Neither of us.

[C]

I would be too.

[B]

I would be.

[A]

Oh, he was terrifying on set. Like he never. I never heard him speak in this Australian accent until the last, until the end. Until the last scene literally ended. And he was done at like 4 o' clock in the morning. And then he started speaking on and I was like, I forgot you're Australian. This is so weird because in between takes he would kind of curse, like Alex, he would stomp around and get mad. Like he was just fully in character. So he was a scary. So every time like, we were both big fans of him, but every time, like, oh, not now, Not now. Johnny was scrubs when we first met him because he was playing the hospital scenes.

[B]

Oh, and after the boat crash.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

He is incredible in this. That scene of, like, you feel. You see. Oh, he's the mini version. He's becoming his father. Like, this boy is his father's son.

[A]

Right. And. And I'm the same way. I. I think one of the things that I struggle with in life is compassion for just bad people or for people that like me, too. For people that hurt other people, I just have little compassion for. I have a hard time getting to a place of feeling sorry for them. So Paul was definitely a journey even after he died. Especially after the. In the two years after the boat crash before he died, pretty much all of the things that we ever heard about Paul Murdoch was that he was just this awful kid. Spoiled, entitled. He was easy to hate. And I wrote about him in that light, and so did Liz. We both just kind of viewed him as the spoiled brat child who killed Mallory beach. And he should be held accountable and was not and was dodging accountability in our eyes. And it took talking to a lot of Paul's friends to understand that he did have a sweet and softer side and that he was honestly kind of like the black sheep of his family. And he was not little Alex. I think him and Alex fought all the time because Paul liked to question things, and Alex was not about that. Buster would just nod his head and say, okay, that's our family. Does it. Okay, that's fine. Paul would just kind of say, why? And I think that his mental health issues just got wildly out of control when he was a teenager. And he would just try to ask questions about things and his parents would not help him or would not guide him in the right way of. And then they would completely shield him from all accountability. Like, at school, he was never. Teachers knew that they were never allowed to get the Murdaugh boys in trouble. So at school, he could never get. Yeah, they just created this bubble where it was impossible for them to grow up like normal kids. So Johnny's portrayal of Paul, I think, was so incredibly brilliant because he got so many people to see that and to look past this person that was very easy to hate for a long time and see that he didn't have a chance. And if he did have a chance of ever becoming normal, his father took that away from him because he died at 21 years old.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Has anybody from the Murdoch family Or. Or crew reached out to either of you since the show has aired, have you heard from anyone?

[C]

Oh, no, no, no, no. I don't think. I don't think so.

[A]

I, I did hear from a friend of Randy's that they thought that Randy would like the show.

[B]

So this is what I was going to say. There are some aspects of it that I feel like they, they, they would. I mean, much of it, sure. If they believe that he's innocent or they don't want that out there, of course they're not going to like that. But I do think that the show creates fully realized human beings in all of them. And even, you know, even Alec, he had a. He was an addict also. Again, not an excuse excuse, but part of an explanation and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think, you know, but again, you would have to then be willing to be accountable for your.

[A]

Your life.

[B]

Like, this is what is so fascinating to me too. The, the string of connection of every time we allow something like we let it go. It isn't just that it. Then we take it on the inside. So it's like you take that with you. If you've allowed. Allowed an injustice to happen or you've allowed someone to lie or to cheat or to do something, you. You're taking that with you. You know, it's like it doesn't, it doesn't. We're not Teflon. It. It sticks. And the more that you do that, then it starts to, you know, impact your life. And I feel like all of these people will forever be impacted by this, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If there's no way to really move on. Well, I mean, I hope everybody can move on, I guess. But I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think that this was all such a moment, and I think the saddest part of it is that our state, particularly the South Carolina bar and the agency that police as lawyers in our state has not learned their lesson of love. Like, we let this man gain so much power and spiral out of control, and nobody within our court system ever held him accountable for so many years. And he was able to steal millions of dollars because he was a lawyer, because he passed the South Carolina bar. Allegedly. I know.

[B]

I wonder about that, too.

[A]

No, they. No.

[C]

No.

[A]

We have heard that man's phone calls when he talks about lawyer things, and it is ridiculous. He did not know what Habeas Corp. Apparently did not feel like.

[B]

Right. Just watch Leave Glee Blind.

[A]

Right. Like, come on. It's not hard. But he was just. Just not. But it's just really Upsetting that, like, we have not used this moment as something to get better to something to really change. I mean, Liz, you think that, like, some things have changed?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, we hear from attorneys in the 14th Circuit that they are now stricter about 5. So basically, when I say things have changed, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing on the base level, like the most basic. But overall, I don't think that things have changed. I do think that they're like little overhaul.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, right.

[B]

I mean, but everything moves at a snail's face. In particular, the justice system. Good Lord.

[A]

And in South Carolina and there.

[B]

But it's. Has you. I mean, it sounds like that you were warned to be careful with even investigating this at all in the first place. So were either of you ever afraid that they might retaliate against you or harm you or.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, we were told they would and we were told to be very careful by, you know, sources in law enforcement who told us that. So that part was disconcerting. Honestly though, I. I don't know that he was. I don't know if he's the person I feared. I think, you know, looking back on it, it's. And maybe this isn't polite to say, but like the boat crash case itself, when Mallory Beach Stanley sued Alec Buster and a number of other people, one of the parties was Parker's Kitchen, which is this billionaire billion dollar gas station convenience store chain in Georgia and South Carolina. I'm honestly more afraid of him, the guy who owns that company, than in our coverage than I am. And I never thought I would say that, but like, there was a time when Mandy and I were in Hampton county interviewing a source in a Hardee's, and somehow it must have cut out that we were there because we went to look at where Steven was killed for the first time. We didn't stop. We just drove by, went down Stephen street, turned around and came back the other way. And as we were driving, I could see like in the distance this like, silver SUV coming toward us. Long road. Like you could see a long distance and it slowed down as it passed us and then hooked bang to Yui, as I say in Boston. But like, they. He took a U turn and he went right behind us. And I've never felt like, if you wonder like, what fear feels like in the moment where like your entire body, like just sinks down to the ground, like, it's just like. So Mandy had to call one of our sources who is in law enforcement and keep him on the phone just in case. And that guy followed us until we got out of there.

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

Yeah. It was like one of those things where it's really.

[B]

I think this is the thing that people don't understand. Like, I have family in North Carolina and I've spent time in South Carolina, and not just there, but these are very remote places often. And people don't understand how. How, you know, they might think like, oh, we'll just drive away or just go to another. When it's so insulated and so isolated. You really don't have, like, you. You can understand how these kinds of dynamics can control everything. And then it's like you're entering a different world where you don't. You don't hold the same value as you do in. In the rest of the world, you know?

[C]

Know, it's so noticed. I often wonder what fans of the show or like, people who followed the case when they come to South Carolina and decide to take a trip to Moselle or to Hampton. I. I'm just so curious about how that goes down because it's. I just.

[A]

They're. They're.

[C]

I mean, they're immediately clocked, I'm sure. And Hampton. To have to get used to that.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I just. I often wonder if that's a pleasant experience for people. I don't see how it could be.

[A]

Well, it's so funny that you say that like. Well, first of all, it was a cop that was following us. So, like, that was obvious. But people, like you said, it's also just such a rural and desolate place that when somebody is following you, it's very obvious. Like, there's not a lot. There's. Nobody else is on this road and some guy comes out of nowhere and pulls a.

[B]

You.

[A]

Like, that's an obvious you're being followed situation. And. Yeah. And it's hard to. To also understand that. It's possible that we were talking in Hardee's a few minutes before we remember seeing a cop in there ordering lunch or something. Yeah. And like, that's how word. That's literally how we're in travels in small towns like Hardy from Hardee's. It just goes. It goes really quick. And it's just very different how things operate there versus the rest of the world.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I can't believe I forgot to say that it was the state trooper who followed us.

[B]

I was afraid of going to jail protecting you.

[A]

I just remember being like, if we go to jail, what's going to happen? Like, the laws don't apply. Here we know that exactly the laws don't apply. And so what are we going to do?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I. We. I can't believe that we have to wrap up, but we do. And I. If you could see. See the sides of my computer. Wish I could turn this around. I can't, but I have so many notes and so many things, and, like, I haven't covered even half of them.

[A]

But do this again if you want to.

[B]

We'll do it again. Yeah, we'll do it.

[C]

We'll do it.

[B]

Yeah. Every week. Yeah, every other day. You guys just, like, dial into my headset. But I do. I want to make sure that I. First of all, I absolutely love that you have changed the name to True Sunlight. Again, not to, like, just really reiterate how much I really love and respect what the two of you are doing. It's taking something so dark and so difficult and then just even changing the name to True Sunlight to show that is what. That's what you're. That's what the essence of what you're doing is, is trying to bring everyone to that place. No. And I just think. Think it's beautiful and important, so I want to make sure that you have a. A moment to tell everybody what. Any last thoughts you have, where people can go to listen and what you want people to know going forward.

[A]

Well, we had a really hard time rebranding after Murdoch Murders. Podcast was over. As in, we could not come up with a name. And it took a very long time to. To figure out what we wanted the concept of going forward, our podcast to be. And we just did not. We were so sick of saying Murdoch Murders and so sick of people saying. And it was after the trial, so it was kind of over, but not really. We were so sick of people saying, all you ever do is Murdoch, and you'll never be anything past Murdoch. And we were like, yes, we can.

[B]

Can.

[A]

Watch us. But Liz came up with the concept of True Sunlight, and I really want her to explain her reasoning for it, because it was really genius and I love it.

[C]

So I was in the line at Starbucks. I was getting Mandy and a mocha for David. And it was during the dark days in the immediate aftermath of the court of the trial, and we were just, you know, throwing it around, and we were, you know, David in particular is just really eager for us to do, like, I think even during the trial, he's like, let's change the.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it was basically like, you know, we knew that true crime, plenty of Things that are out there that people can listen to. And oftentimes they're beginning, middle, and end. Like, it's reporters or people who have interest in the industry or the industry, the justice system, or the legal system. They have a beginning, a middle, and an end to the arcs that they tell. But we're reporting in real time, so our audience is there with us with the battles to get information from public officials, with the watching these men act like maniacs. So we get to really have a team on our side behind or behind us, but who have our backs. And so it really felt like something that we wanted to, like, share. And, like, sunlight is a word that we use in journalism for transparency, so.

[B]

Oh, is that right? I didn't know that.

[C]

So it's. It has, like, double meaning here. So it's not just, you know, it's not true crime, but true sunlight in the sense that we're taking the crime and we're exposing, you know, why isn't this crime being solved?

[A]

Why.

[C]

Why are police doing that in this one? So it's really. It's exposing crime and corruption. And it was in the kitchen, Mandy, at your house, when we were just, like, it was so simple. Like, we just said. I just said it. And then it was like, yeah, and.

[A]

We were like, antithesis of true crime. Like, make it opposite and make it be ultimately about good, which is sunlight. You know, like, make it ultimate. Like, that is the goal of what we do to make it. To make life better for Bicta, to make them feel like. And we've also found that justice comes in many forms. And one of the forms that we are able to give to people is to just expose the bad people that have done horrible things. And just the process of exposing bad people and helping victims feel validated in the way that they have felt about how they've been treated by the justice system. And we have an amazing army of hundreds of thousands of followers that we are so incredibly grateful for every day that they.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

They. They go to battle for these people. You know, like, they'll say on social media, like, leave them alone. Or like. Or they. They make fun of the perpetrators. We do a lot of that because that's also kind of a little form of justice. Like, we can't arrest people, but we can let these bad guys know that we are after them and that we are watching.

[D]

And.

[A]

Yeah, and there is no shortage of that. So of the bad guys that need to be exposed. So we are very busy. But true sunlight. Yeah, but True Sunlight podcast is where you guys can listen to us in cup of justice podcasts. Cup of justice is every Tuesday and True Sunlight is every Thursday. And again, we appreciate you so much. This has been awesome.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[B]

I can't thank the two of you enough. This so is has been an absolute pleasure. And again, I'm just a mad respect for both of you.

[A]

Back at you.

[B]

I wish you the the best with all of it and I I feel like we'll, we'll chat again sometime.

[A]

Seriously, let us know. This is fun.

[C]

Amazing fun. Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much, Liz and man.

[D]

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