Killer Thriller: The Capture of the Green River Killer

Summary

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Killer Thriller: The Capture of the Green River Killer

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: iHeartPodcasts / Lisa Donovan
Air Date: December 23, 2025
Guest: Sharon Lawrence (Emmy-nominated actress)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Killer Thriller, host Lisa Donovan sits down with acclaimed actress Sharon Lawrence to discuss the 2008 miniseries The Capture of the Green River Killer, which delves into the nearly 20-year search for the infamous serial killer Gary Ridgway. While the discussion centers on Lawrence's experience portraying the mother of one of the victims (a fictionalized character created to honor the real lives affected by Ridgway), it expands into deep reflections on storytelling, empathy, the psychology of killers, and the societal implications of true crime retellings. The episode intertwines personal anecdotes, behind-the-scenes insights, and profound examinations of the real human cost behind the headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Draw to the Project

[06:49–09:14]

• Sharon Lawrence admits she knew little about the Green River Killer case before taking the role and was initially drawn in by the involvement of friends, notably actress Amy Davidson.
  • “I was very impressed by [Amy’s] desire to evolve her artistry.” (Sharon Lawrence, 07:13)
• Lawrence was also motivated by the opportunity to work with director Norma Bailey, a prominent female director in Canadian film.

The Female Perspective in Storytelling

[09:14–11:32]

• Both Lawrence and Donovan emphasize the rarity and importance of female directors in film/TV, noting how Bailey’s perspective enriched the story.
• Having a woman at the helm affected the storytelling deeply, providing more nuance and space for emotional exploration.

Honoring the Victims Through Fictionalization

[11:32–14:05]

• The miniseries uses fictionalized characters to represent and honor the collective experiences of the victims, allowing the story to focus on their humanity.
  • “You're really there to represent the lives and the souls and the spirits of all of the victims. So that's one...pretty big, you know, weight to carry there.” (Lisa Donovan, 11:41)

The Influence of “The Lovely Bones” and Screenwriter John Peelmeier

[12:13–15:20]

• Lawrence notes the script drew inspiration from The Lovely Bones, another work that personalizes the victim’s perspective.
• The series is written by John Peelmeier, known for Agnes of God, and characterized by Lawrence as an “OG feminist writer.”
  • “It’s told through the eyes of the women...We learn about her; we don't just see the result.” (Sharon Lawrence, 12:41)
• Notably, Peelmeier himself plays Ridgway in the miniseries, a performance both found chilling.

Challenging Misconceptions: The Psychology of Gary Ridgway

[19:35–24:53]

• The episode dissects how the FBI's profile of Ridgway was incorrect, and how Ted Bundy’s input (while imprisoned) proved crucial to the investigation.

• Discussion moves to the narrative value of focusing on the victims' agency and the wider societal failures that put them in harm’s way.

• Exploration of generational trauma, the cycle of abuse, and how economic and personal desperation play into vulnerability.

  • “While the mother refuses to believe it...she punishes her daughter for saying the truth. She defends this man because that's her survival.” (Sharon Lawrence, 22:05)

Portraying Tough Subjects as an Actor

[32:04–38:58]

• Lawrence reflects on the challenge and responsibility of playing a character who is both complicit and a victim of circumstance, noting the value in representing “women without agency.”

• Lawrence and Donovan exchange about the emotional weight of shooting such dark material and how it can linger off-camera.

  • “I remember the pain of hurting Amy...my character hurts hers physically and psychologically.” (Sharon Lawrence, 38:58)

Storytelling, Empathy, and the Human Condition

[40:41–48:53]

• The conversation connects the story to larger themes of faith, family, and the struggle to shield children from darkness.

• Lawrence and Donovan reflect on how real-life tragedy (and storytelling about it) shapes families, children, and communities.

• They draw parallels with myth, fairy tales, and the need for cathartic storytelling throughout human history.

  • “We make buckets that, oh, that person's just crazy...how did we get there? We are all human beings.” (Lisa Donovan, 29:09)

The Search for Closure & Healing

[51:08–56:51]

• The episode closes on the question of closure for the families of the victims, with both agreeing that knowing the truth may bring some peace, but “closure” remains elusive.
  • “Many people who are behind bars...will never have remorse. It's not possible. They do not live there.” (Sharon Lawrence, 54:03)
• Lawrence shares a personal anecdote about a film she produced about empathy and unlikely human connection, illustrating healing comes more from shared understanding than from retribution.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Her capacity for honesty and vulnerability...was a great choice for casting. So I thought, wow, how great to be part of this.” (Sharon Lawrence, 07:00)
• “That deserves more than 90 minutes of storytelling. If you take out commercials, two nights of this...” (Sharon Lawrence, 11:16)
• “The sensitivity within this story paired with the horror of the truth I found so rewarding and moving...” (Sharon Lawrence, 12:54)
• “While it, the production design...the hominess that was there and the compression of the size of the space and how trapped they felt.” (Sharon Lawrence, 38:58)
• “We need those heroes. We need the broken, the wounded warriors.” (Sharon Lawrence, 47:46)
• “Our job is to foster empathy, to foster understanding, to foster healthy environments...” (Sharon Lawrence, 54:06)
• “That humanness, the ability to actually connect with another human being is what is the saving grace of life.” (Lisa Donovan, 56:05)

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Significant Segments by Timestamp

• Introduction & Guest Welcome – 03:59–06:19
• How Sharon Came to the Role – 06:49–09:14
• Director’s Influence & Female Perspective – 09:14–11:32
• Representing the Victims’ Voices – 11:32–14:05
• The Role of Fiction and Storytelling Choices – 19:35–24:53
• Family Dynamics & Cycles of Abuse – 21:32–24:05
• Psychological Motives of Ridgway and Serial Killers – 26:14–29:01
• Empathy, Agency, and the Human Condition – 29:01–32:04
• Acting Challenges and Emotional Impact – 38:26–42:12
• Coping with the Realities & Aftermath – 42:46–48:53
• On Closure for Victims’ Families – 51:08–56:51
• Final Thoughts & Sharon’s Upcoming Projects – 63:07–66:41

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Memorable Moments

• Revelation that John Peelmeier, the screenwriter, also portrayed the killer — a fact that deeply impressed both host and guest.
• Discussion of how the show’s two-night, expanded miniseries format allowed for true emotional and narrative depth, as opposed to “truncating” the pain and complexity (11:12).
• Sharon Lawrence’s vivid description of a pivotal final scene — sitting outside her character’s home, the visual metaphor for isolation and loss (41:20).
• The poignant exploration of how families, police, and communities are all devastated by the ripple effects of serial crimes (42:46).

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Tone and Final Reflections

The conversation is thoughtful, sensitive, and deeply empathetic. Both Lisa Donovan and Sharon Lawrence frequently underscore the gravity of telling stories about real violence while championing the portrayal of pain, complexity, and hope. The overall tone respects the victims and the challenge of dramatization while showing the importance of confronting darkness to foster human understanding and resilience.

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Further Information and Sharon Lawrence’s Projects

• The Capture of the Green River Killer is available on several streaming platforms.
• Sharon Lawrence also stars in works such as Five Desperate Hours (YouTube), Joe Pickett (Paramount+), is appearing in plays such as Pen Pals (Daryl Roth Theater, January), Steel Magnolias (UNC Chapel Hill, April), and continues her solo show The Shot.

Connect with the podcast on Instagram and TikTok @illerthrillerpod for episode feedback and suggestions.

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Transcript

[Lisa Donovan]

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[Sharon Lawrence]

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[Sharon Lawrence]

Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan.

[Lisa Donovan]

Hey everyone, Lisa Donovan here, back with a new episode of Killer Thriller where we examine the crossroads between the true crime dramas that we find ourselves addicted to and the real stories behind them. So today I'd like to report I am in beautiful Maui with my family on a little getaway, quick trip, vacation. But my priority is to deliver this episode to you all. So I look a little crazy, but I think we're going to have an incredible, incredible episode today because we are going to dive into a true crime story that, wow, it just stays with you long, long after the credits roll. And this is one of the most chilling serial killer cases in U.S. history. And this story is told not just through the search for the killer, but through the lives of caught in the middle of it all. And our guest today I am ecstatic to announce is Sharon Lawrence. Actress, singer, dancer, best known for her iconic and Emmy nominated role as Ada Sylvia Costas Sipowitz on NYPD Blue. You may also know her from roles in Desperate Housewives, One Tree Hill for voicing Scarlet Reynolds and American Dad. But today she's here to talk about her role in the capture of the Green River Killer. This is a 2008 miniseries that follows the nearly 20 year hunt for Gary Ridgeway, the man responsible for the murders of dozens of women in Washington state and the detectives who just refused to walk away from the case. Sharon played the mother of a fictionalized character that was created to honor the real victims. And today she's talking with us about stepping into a true crime story with real weight behind it. We're going to get into what she knew about the case before, what it was like telling this story while the killer is still alive, and how working on something this dark can stay with you long after the cameras stop rolling. So please welcome Sharon Lawrence.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Hi, Elisa. So nice to be with you.

[Lisa Donovan]

So nice to see you. Thank you so much for having me spending your time with us today. This is one of the most disturbing cases probably that I have ever heard of and I'm just really excited to dive into this with you. So let's just start with how much did you actually know about the case before you signed on?

[Sharon Lawrence]

I didn't really know much and I was interested in playing this because I knew the lead actress, Amy Davidson. We were friends, colleagues. We had done something years, probably just a year prior or so, and I was very impressed by her desire to evolve, her artistry.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And Amy, if those of you who aren't familiar with her, was one of the daughters on Three Simple Rules.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Cuoco, who was also a friend of mine. I played her mother in sitcom and that show, Three Simple Rules was a sitcom and Amy had great theatrical chops in a play that we did together. So I knew her taking on this challenge of playing a character that really gives us an insight into the psychology of not just a victim in this tragic serial killer truth, but also young girls that choose a path of prostitution, of being on the streets way that we don't understand. And her, her capacity for honesty and vulnerability and somebody that you just trust inherently was a great choice for cast casting. So I thought, wow, how great to be part of this to watch her. I also loved that the director of this was a woman, Norma Bailey. One of the most established directors in the Canadian film world. Norma was one of the first directors that had come through the the ranks in Canada's burgeoning film industry. And my history as being part of Women in Films leadership, the the U.S. networking and advocacy group for females in our and our business had drawn me to say yes to working with women at any level, every level. And it. So that's. Those two reasons were what, what compelled me more so than the story, frankly.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right. I love this so much because first of all, I was going to say you and Amy actually look as though you could be mother and daughter. And I really understand that desire for her to break out of what you've been known for and that that's something that as actors in general, but Certainly as younger actors, we though these sorts of films, the TV movies at the time especially really allowed you to explore a whole different area where you might not be able to do that in sort of your, certainly in a TV series sort of life or in a, in another kind of film. So I, I, I love that. And I also, you know, you and I both know it is still a very small pool of women that are directing television and film. And I remember very distinctly the female directors that I worked with in television. Never in Canada, but American tv. And it's, you know, they're few and far between and it's, I love that those are the, the reasons. That is not what I would. So do you think that having Norma as obviously being a woman directing this, what sort of impact do you think that had on the actual storytelling?

[Sharon Lawrence]

So many ways. And let's also consider, and I'm sorry that I don't know who is responsible for this, but I bet that we can find this out who it was that chose to, to greenlight this, this story in the way that it was told. And this is a good time to examine the fact that it's a two part miniseries. That's important because not only was Gary Ridgewood reign decades long. Right. Was it close to 30 years that he was.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yeah, over 20.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Over 20. Okay. Yeah.

[Lisa Donovan]

Before they. Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

That deserves more than 90 minutes storytelling. If you take out commercials, two nights of this. And that's important. Whoever said yes at the studio and network level because it's a big commitment for a network.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes. Instead of trying to truncate it or get it done as quickly as possible and you lose so much nuance. That's something that I really appreciated about this that. Well, first of all, let's make sure everybody knows that your character is fictional and created as is Amy's, but you're really there to represent the lives and the souls and the spirits of all of the victims. So that's one a pretty big, you know, weight to carry there. And how, how did you feel about, did you personally feel that as okay, I really need to do justice to this for these people?

[Sharon Lawrence]

Of course, of course. And the script compelled me so much because it was written with the homage to that wonderful and heartbreaking novel, the Lovely Bones.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

So if you aren't familiar with that, the storytelling of the woman who, the young woman who lost her life, I want to call her more than just a victim because that's what that novel reveals, as does John Peelmeier, the screenwriter's take on the Green River Killer, it's told through the eyes of the women. One in particular that Amy Davidson's character is focused on. We learn about her, we don't just see the result. We learn about all of the choices and the steps along the way that put her on this path with this monster. And the sensitivity within this story paired with the horror of the truth I found so rewarding and moving when I went back to watch it, based on your invitation to be. Be a guest. Because we understand through the narration of philosophy that a young woman who feels discarded, yes, disvalued, abused, discarded by society in a way that doesn't give her and all of those women in Seattle at the time who were taken a real, I think, importance in this story. The news stories were, as they always are, sensationalized. They were sex workers. That's an important thing to talk about in this particular story. You might have mentioned it in your intro, but that's who he prayed for, he was targeting. So it's easy to think, well, these gals had it coming, but why were they there in the first place? And that character is examined through a tenderness and an inner monologue and evolution that John Peelmeier gave it. John Pehlmeier is an amazing playwright. Agnes of God is one of his most famous plays. And that is an examination of nuns in a cloistered culture who are experiencing psychological trauma and abuse at the hands of the men in the Catholic leadership, priests, and even the women who are protecting them.

[Lisa Donovan]

He's really a feminist writer that people. I don't feel like he's ever characterized that way, but he truly is one of the OG feminist writers. Yes, he is as a man.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And here's something else that your viewers and listeners may not know. He plays Gary Ridgewell in this miniseries. The man who wrote it plays the Green River Killer. And his performance is staggering.

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[Sharon Lawrence]

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[Lisa Donovan]

Only one of you will leave here.

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[Lisa Donovan]

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[Lisa Donovan]

You know, I've watched a lot of the, the documentary footage of this man and it is uncanny. The, you know, the sort of the. I was going to say the soul of the character but. Or the lack thereof. He is. He really captures something that, that, that was in this man in real life. It's so.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Well, you know what I think it is as is very potent when you're examining the. The profile and how interesting this story was that the FBI expert got it all wrong.

[Lisa Donovan]

Got it all wrong.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Got it all wrong. And they were searching for, you know, what is it?

[Lisa Donovan]

Some big guy who was, you know.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Capacity, the physical loner, didn't have a.

[Lisa Donovan]

Wife, didn't have any of the things. It was literally the opposite.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Right. And who did get it right is Ted Bundy. They. They spoke with him and Ted Bundy nailed it.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yep. That's one of the most bizarre things that they go to speak with Ted Bundy in prison to get his input on how to find this serial killer. And I also, you know, you're talking about just going back to what you said before. You know, one of my questions was going to be how, how much agency do you think that TV movies should have over changing the truth and not exactly being true to the facts. But you said it so beautifully that this story, the way it's told, it actually is enhanced by not only using the facts, by creating these women, you have the ability to tell a fuller story, actually and make it not just about the numbers and the violence and the actual crime itself.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yes. And to see the family dynamic that was created in our particular family, the lack of resources, the. A family living on the edges where any moment that a paycheck doesn't come through, they live in. In a mobile home that those. While it the set, the the artist part. Pardon me, the design, the production design. I remember walking in that, that set and seeing the care. If you look at Amy's character's bedroom, the lovely vintage lamp and her room, she's. It's a girl's room. Her mother was trying. Her mother wanted to give her a sense of home. And as Amy's character Says this mother chooses men badly. She goes through men. And it's not about sex with her, this mother. It's about security and a man in their lives, even a bad man who rapes her daughter in their home. And this mother refuses to believe it. You know, she knows it's true. Right. But she punishes her daughter for saying the truth. She defends this man because that's her survival. That's right. She's a waitress and living on the edge. And it's an existential moment for this mother that she chooses something that is unconscionable. But I think we all know that women without agency often make decisions.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Are tragic. And then, sadly, her daughter hooks up with a guy who will only use her.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yep. And this, this reveals how hurt people. Hurt people and abused people just go into that same cycle of abuse and.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And then talks about that. The, The. The voiceover. This, this young girl is a real philosopher.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right, Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

She is thinking things through. And fate is the big theme. It's. It's Greek tragedy, in a way. Fate. Are we responsible for our. For what happens to us, or are we merely on the train for the ride and nothing is going to stop it? And how do you reconcile when you realize both things are true? Right, Right. Both things are true. And how you reconcile living in a culture where liars like Gary Ridgewell, he was a great liar. See this in, in our story. And you see it because they caught him. You know, they got him because it's so convincing.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right. And then once he is actually caught in the, the documentary footage that I've watched, you see this man tell a lie straight to them. His face does not change. And then they say, well, we know you're lying because of this. And he says, right, I am. And he passes and here's why, and then gives an explanation of why. It's what really strikes me about all of these cases, but this one really in particular, for. For both people, for the, for the, the victims and for Gary Ridgeway himself, it's everybody. It's all about needing love and care and mattering. Right. And the, the, the. When you don't have that or when you have it in a very twisted and warped way, how that can inform your life. And it's really sort of. It's just jarring. It's very moving because it's the simplest thing ever, but it's actually the most important part of being human.

[Sharon Lawrence]

I want to read something to you. Amy and I are connected in a lot of ways, and not the least which is by one of my dear friends who has now become one of the top acting coaches. Lee.

[Lisa Donovan]

Lee Kilton Smith.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Lee coached Amy, I believe. When I was invited to do this, I thought, let me just reach out and maybe I'll talk to Amy too, at some point because she could speak more for herself.

[Lisa Donovan]

I love that. Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

But, Lee, I said, do you remember, were you part of this? And she said, yeah, I think so. But I. And I told her that I was coming to do this, and I even asked want to be on a podcast. I don't know whether she would because she's very protective of the way she works with clients. But I'm going to read something to you that is directly related to what you just said. How do we get in their minds what they. Meaning the people that are capable of this? I think we know so many people who are. Who are professional liars, who are. Who are compulsive, and they are sociopathic narcissists. And they are at the highest levels of everything, certainly in our culture.

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[Lisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Sharon Lawrence]

But someone who is. Who will be led to murder, and the kind of murder that this man died is, did. Is. Is worth noting to figure out the psychology that. What they were saying to themselves to justify their actions. She's. Lise worked on a couple of these, so again, she may be worth checking in with that even people like Ted Bundy, they. To figure out their psychology and what motivates the parts of themselves that were broken that needed validation. And as Lee says, it's fascinating for me to figure out, not to figure out, but to realize in research that they are bearing levels of personal accomplishment.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes. Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Depending on how someone murders another person. Strangulation is one thing because it's usually done from behind, which is what the Green River Killer did.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And there are other. Other modes of killing that, you know, are. Are even more personal because they have to do with being face to face.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And not. Not with a weapon that dissects close and personal. When someone is feeling small and so many aggressive crime scenes are molded by a feeling or a fear of being inconsequential. There is a connection there. If they feel inconsequential, then they can use this action to feel consequential. It's not just hunting.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Success.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes. Success actually being acknowledged for.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yeah.

[Lisa Donovan]

Their achievements. It is. You know, this is why I'm so fascinated by these things. You know, people can say this is like a morbid fascination. It really is about the human condition and what we are capable as. As Capable of as human beings, of beautiful great grand things and horrific things. And I always think, you know, it's, it's, it's short sighted for us to kind of say put people in these buckets that, oh, that person's just crazy. You know, they've done horrible things. They're just crazy. It's really. How did we get there? We are all human beings. And so this is again why I really feel like this particular series really aims to focus in on that. The how did we get there? How did these women come to this decision to be where they are? Or oftentimes, you know, they don't have any, they have no other way to go.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yes, I, as I was watching it, what, what also rang so true is they were in this story manipulated by men. This young, this young gal is abused by the man that her mother brings in the house.

[Lisa Donovan]

She has no other reference, right? That's.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And then she chooses, she falls in love with a very charming, sexy young guy who you think, well, they're, they're, they're, they're matched in ways that make sense. And he's a drug addict and he, he pimps her to get drugs.

[Lisa Donovan]

To get drugs.

[Sharon Lawrence]

He sleeps with somebody else. Not somebody that she cares about, not somebody who forces themselves upon her. But she makes a choice to give up her body for the sake of a guy who, who she does love, who she does trust, and who is also hooking her on, on drugs and the manipulation of men. The killer to make these young women think that he's safe, he's unassumed. He talks about his kids, he talks about his wife.

[Lisa Donovan]

I was so struck by that. That, that is really, it's so diabolical to have carry a picture of your child to put these women at ease. So did you once you did. I know you said at the start that you didn't know much about the case before you started the series, but did you do research on it at that point? How much did you learn? Did you want to know more or did you want to keep it more about just the story of you and your daughter in the script?

[Sharon Lawrence]

Of course I read the script. So, you know, you never don't do a movie without reading a script. And that script was enough for me to understand I'm serving something dark, but my role in it is about that the average person missing what's going on right underneath their eyes and the, the desperation that people who are on the, the edges of security or insecurity with their economic status walk through all the time and how you have to deflect. You can't let all of the threats come in because you would be worn out. Yes, I was playing during that time. I've been playing and I still do a lot of polished women, women of privilege, women who had access, women who were strong, who had their own agency. This character doesn't and that was interesting for me. I'm a character actress so I always am grateful for the opportunity to explore something else. And I don't think at that point Point, yeah, I hadn't started playing killers myself and now I have played quite a few killers.

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Today, people choose Morton Buildings to build a variety of buildings for their property any time of year because they know Morton Buildings are are built stronger, last longer and look better. If you need a garage, a stall barn or a storage building for an rv, boat or other vehicles, a shop for your farm hobbies or car restoration projects or anything in between, Morton can create a building for you that's attractive, easy to maintain and dependable enough to stand the test of time. Just visit MortonBuildings.com today to find out more. They use quality materials and expert crafts Craftsman with an industry leading warranty to ensure your structure is enjoyed by generations to come. Morton buildings is 100% employee owned with thousands of satisfied customers. That means they're the industry leader you can trust. To get started on your next building project, visit MortonBuildings.com don't delay. Construction schedules are filling up fast, so now's the time to start planning your building project with Morton. That's MortonBuildings.com 10 athletes will face the.

[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

Toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You are the fittest of the fit.

[Lisa Donovan]

Only one of you will leave here.

[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

With an IFIT contract worth $250,000. This is where mindset comes in.

[Lisa Donovan]

Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down.

[Public Investing Sponsor Voice]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th watch the trailer on trainergames.com support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for Informational purposes only and is not investment, recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Lisa Donovan]

This is another question I wanted to ask you. You know, I don't think I have ever played someone. First of all, I've never played somebody who's a real person who existed in history, but nor have I played someone who is so. Like, the circumstances are so dark and so bleak. So how did. Did that. How did it or didn't it stay with you on the, on the daily. Both while you're on set. But then in the aftermath, like, how did it impact your.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You personally shooting this? I remember. I remember the pain of, of hurting Amy and my character hurts hers physically and psychologically. And I remember in that mobile home the tenderness with which it was decorated, the hominess that was there and the compression of the size of the space and how trapped they felt. And then at the end when she's gone, we worked hard on my character going from presentational and going out into the world and trying to look younger than she is and dressed up for her waitress job. I chose frosted lip gloss that I chose to put on while she wants to tell me something really hard. And I'm rushing and I'm so self involved that I never even. I ask what's wrong, but I don't take the time to listen. I don't really want to know.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And by the end, you see this woman who has. Is paying the price for her ignorance, for her willful ignorance. And we chose to have me sitting on the outside of the trailer on a step, which you watch her come in and out of. She's. She's on the outside of her life now. And once again she's putting something to her mouth to silence the thoughts, to soothe. And this time it's a long neck beer.

[Lisa Donovan]

The feeling that I got in watching that was this woman who comes out of that tiny space and now is sitting outside with this expansive world around her and she's downloading. She doesn't really have anything now. Like she's lost so much and all of that space is just the vastness around her and she doesn't, she doesn't. She's lost her child. It's a really poignant. It's a very. I think it's just a great choice.

[Sharon Lawrence]

That was normal, right? You know, normal.

[Lisa Donovan]

It was, yeah.

[Sharon Lawrence]

I. I don't know whether it was. I can't remember if it was in the script that way, but Norma saw it and we shot on a day we were shooting. We Shot in Winnipeg, Canada, which is the. That's the prairie, if you don't know.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Manitoba. It's the prairie. And there was. It was the summer, and there was a huge storm coming up. And you could see the clouds, the gray, just rolling in. And she knew that light, because that's where she's from. She knew the light was exactly right. It was foreboding, it was heavy, and it's the mood that we all needed to wrap this thing up.

[Lisa Donovan]

And.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And it also looks like the Pacific Northwest. Right? It doesn't.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh, definitely. Yeah.

[Sharon Lawrence]

The ions in the air are.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes, yes, yes. Right. That dense green and. Yep, yep. How did it feel to be shooting this and knowing that this man is still alive? That while you're. I mean, there are so many parts of this that just must have been a lot to metabolize.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yeah. You know, I. I hadn't seen John's portrayal at that point, so I wasn't. I didn't feel as connected to Gary Killer as I did to the Green river and the people who live there, people whose lives he affected. The. There. There are really smart, smart insight into the narrative about how many lives this man's actions touch. The. The. The families, of course, of those who were lost to his actions, but the teams of detectives and the judicial system members who were working and failing and struggling and obsessed. I just want to shout out. Every performance in this movie is so anchored. It's again, because we have the luxury of storytelling time that you see, they can. The camera can rest with someone. The camera can reveal how they're haunted in the middle of the night, wondering, why can't they crack this? Why can't they figure out Tom Kavanaugh is so beautifully honest. He plays the lead detective.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes. Lead detective who is.

[Sharon Lawrence]

As a father. He's a religious man. You know, faith is a big part of this. This story.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

He refers to his faith, his dog. His wife says at one point when he's brought these pictures home, and she says, you said you weren't going to bring this into our home, ever into our house. They had young kids. And. And she says that with a question. He said, why? And she says, you need help. And he says, I pray every day. And. And it's this sincere, honest. And she said, I'm not talking about that. You need to get a new computer. But his. He is relying on his faith. He needs help and he's going to faith for that.

[Lisa Donovan]

And I also felt it was really interesting how, you know, as you say, this man has children. And small children in the home. And so how do you, number one, you can't separate at a certain point, work and life, home life, they are always going to mesh in some regard. But also this idea of how do you share horrific things with children, right? You can't, you can't completely shield them from it. Right. And then at a certain point you have to be able to. And I know this from my own experience of friends having very, very tragic things happen that we have had to share with our daughter. And, you know, you can't just shield it and act like everything's fine because kids know, kids understand instinctually when something does not feel right. So, like, you can't lie to them, but you also don't want to just dump all of this information on them. And I loved that scene where his daughter comes up to him, you know, and says something to the effect of, daddy, I like, I'm proud of you. I understand what you're doing. And you get the sense that this child knows he's doing something very, very challenging and very dark. But it's important. And I thought that was beautiful.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yeah. You know, it makes me think of the series that I'm in called Joe Pickett. It's about a game warden in Wyoming who ends up solving crimes and murders. And it's a, it's a wonderful best selling novel series and we did two seasons on Paramount plus. And he's a family man and crime ends up coming to his, to him, to his family. You think about what kids who are exposed to, to crimes. See, and, and in, in this story, Joe Pickett, what draws him to being a protector is that he himself grew up in an abusive household.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And that's the same thing, that's the.

[Lisa Donovan]

Same story with Tom's character.

[Sharon Lawrence]

So we, we know kids live it now. I mean, the media exposes them all the time to everything.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You know, the world. How do you protect the innocence? I'm not sure. But what you, what you get in this story is someone who grew up with that wound, that damage and, and how that becomes his secret. No, his superpower. Not, not secret, but his superpower.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And we need those heroes. We need the broken, the wounded warriors.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes, yes. I think that that gives so much. Those are the things that I'm interested in is, you know, what we all go through as human beings. And the, you know, this certainly in American culture also, we, we don't like to talk about difficult things and we like everything to be very tied up and pretty and young and petite. And, you know, life is just simply not that. And when we don't incorporate all of the good and the bad, you know, there's great hope in going through challenge and seeing someone who can overcome that, not only overcome it, but actually use what they went through in order to inform their life in a positive way and to influence other people. Like, to actually use the difficulty to come through the other side. I think it's just a beautiful message and an important one.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And it's what fairy tales, the good ones Grimm did and those Greek tragedies, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Euripides, they write about. Murder, patricide. It's there. It's in all of those stories, these ancient stories, when our. Our. Our humans were. Were gathering to understand themselves, what catharsis is, is used and meant to do. And then Grimms recognized it. You know, the. The European culture knew to put it in the context for children.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

We. We find it now in a lot of ways in Marvel. Right. We. We keep telling these stories. We need to keep telling these stories. And AI. I just was seeing something on my today about AI chat bots that come into the lives of young people, say, 14, 15.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

At the time when they need to be able to explore their. The flaws in their judgment, to prepare them to make decisions on their own.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Not maybe prior to that age, but that age as they are developing independence of thinking, they need pushback, they need challenged.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And these AI bots are sycophantic.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You're right about everything.

[Lisa Donovan]

Everything you do is right. Everything. Yes. Oh, I agree.

[Sharon Lawrence]

That will handicap them as they grow older. In the real world, it isn't about protecting all the time. Sometimes it's exposing and exploring and managing consequences with them. That's why it's such a tightrope to be a parent now. But we are in uncharted territory with our. Our younger members of our culture being shielded in a way that.

[Lisa Donovan]

That does not serve, is handicapping them. I think that was exactly the right word. I. Boy, do I think about this on a daily basis. And my daughter's 13, so she's right in. In the heart of it. So just the last couple of questions. So how do you. How. What's your feeling on closure? So in terms of, you know, so the detective has said recently, because Gary Ridgeway now is apparently very close to death, but he's still in prison, obviously. And I think someone asked Dave Reichert, the detective, you know, how does he feel about closure? Does he think that's going to give the victim's families closure. And I mean, he says no, I agree. How do you feel about this idea of closure after something like this?

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yeah. I have two thoughts. Vengeance is very satisfying emotion. It is very. It's as human as any other that we have. Right. I mean, road rage. We get it, we understand, you know.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yep.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You want tit for tat. These people will not get it. And he, he pled guilty. He turned himself in. And, and, and, and he, he solved the, he helped answer the questions. So there's that. At least they know those. Right. Loved ones knew and they needed to know, which was.

[Lisa Donovan]

We should say I'm not. In case some of the listeners don't know. They, he, they gave him that particular plea in order to give some of the victim's family some sort of, if not closure and an understanding of what happened to their loved one.

[Sharon Lawrence]

So they knew their loved one was indeed the victim. This is where they died. This is how they died. That sounds horrific, but also I think we know through psychology, not knowing can be worse. Yes. You never get to rest. So that I don't think it was a, a wrong call for the, the judicial system to offer that. What I also know from my psychiatrist husband is that many people who are behind bars will never have. Those who are guilty will never have remorse. It's not possible. They do not live there. There are people who will never feel the sociopathic narcissist again that we have populated with.

[Lisa Donovan]

We have. Yep.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Make decisions for the rest of the world currently. They have no empathy. They have. We will never change that about them.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Our job is to foster empathy, to foster understanding, to foster healthy environments so that young people that are perhaps on that path may have an intervention.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Earlier, Sooner rather than later. I did a movie, a true story, a crime story that I produced. Giancarlo Esposito and I starred in a television film called Five Desperate Hours. A true story of a man who invaded a woman's home while she was there. He was running from the law. He held her captive in Durham, North Carolina. She was a Duke professor. She just happened to be home. He chose the door that he was entering not because he knew she was there, because he was running from the cops. He had stolen a car and was being chased. And they got to know each other in that five hour period. And she not only helped him surrender, but was there through his trial. He had, he. She wasn't the one who was pressing charges. It was the, the person whose car he had taken and the robbery that he had committed prior to. He was desperate. He was desperate and he tried to take his own life in their home. In that home. It was the anniversary of his brother's suicide that was creating this storm within him on the day that he committed this crime. And she herself had understood that because she herself had tried to take her own life at one point. They bonded this. And we tell this story because the, the, the conclusion to it is that they stayed close even while he.

[Lisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Prison sentence which wasn't long but significant. And that understanding these two people are so vastly different had something in common. Yes.

[Lisa Donovan]

That humanness, the, the ability to actually connect with another human being is what is the saving grace of life.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And these. I. I wonder if the people who lost their fan, their, their loved one to the Green River Killer, if they found each other through the trial, if they stayed in touch, if they were able to share the unspeakable, the horrific that nobody else would understand. That may be where the healing under understanding comes far more than a sense of closure that, that Gary Ritz will ever feel right. Anything him being gone may not shift for anyone nearly as much as sharing an understanding of loss.

[Lisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Somebody who's been through it.

[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

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[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

Toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

[Sharon Lawrence]

You are the fittest of the fit.

[Lisa Donovan]

Only one of you will leave here.

[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

With an IFIT contract worth $250,000. This is where mindset comes in.

[Lisa Donovan]

Someone will be eliminated. Pressure is coming down.

[Public Investing Sponsor Voice]

Trainer Games on Prime Video January 8th watch the trailer on trainergames.com support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and let you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisors Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh Sharon, you're just the best.

[Sharon Lawrence]

I'm so pleased to be part of this. Thank you for inviting me. My role in it is not big, but my. My examination, my appreciation, my understanding of it is increased by your interest in this. And I tell you, people should take some time and watch this because it is. It's human nature and tenderness, the good and the bad in a very poetically told story. And I give all credit to the people that wrote it. John Peelemeyer that directed it, Norma Bailey, the actors who.

[Lisa Donovan]

It's a phenomenal cast all around life.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Into it and took in a real hard truth. Give it back to us with. With a humanity that helps us understand each other.

[Lisa Donovan]

Yeah. Well, people can check it out. It's streaming on several different platforms. The capture of the Green River Killer. Sharon Lawrence, you're a sparkling star. I am so happy that you spent this time with us today. And is there anything, where can people find you? Is there anything else you want to put out there?

[Sharon Lawrence]

Well, I mentioned five desperate hours. You can find that on YouTube. And Giancarlo Esposito, well, he is amazing. Yeah. What else do I need to say? And I talked about Joe Pickett because that's a wonderful show. Michael Dorman, if you know Michael Dorman, he was in For All Mankind. He was in yes, Patriot on Amazon. Hit the playing a reluctant serial killer. He's on, I think it's called Frontier, an Australian series. He's. He's great. David Alan Greer is in that series.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh, I love David. Yes.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Julianne Guil, Skywalker Hughes, who you'll hear more about. She's in the new Little House on the Prairie. But she's a child in. In ours. She's a tween now, a child in ours who goes through some interesting stuff. As I was saying, children who witness Hard things and how that's processed. I'm in a play in New York in January called Pen Pals Loving Story. A very loving, loving story.

[Lisa Donovan]

Beautiful. Where? What theater?

[Sharon Lawrence]

It's at the Daryl Roth Theater. I'll be there January 7th through the 18th. Maureen McCormick and I are starring together in this story of women who were connected as pen pals. They were 14 years old in 1948, and they stayed pen pals for a long time. One is in Newark, New Jersey, and the other is in Sheffield, England. So we bring cultures to this, and it's great. The hallmark of it all is. Is wrapping up now, but you can always find some good comfort in. In Hallmarks. Mine is Grand Old Opry Christmas. We filmed the 100th year anniversary of the Grand Ole Opry, and I got to to live at the Opry basically for a week, and we featured that very American institution. So. Well. And then I'll be doing Steel Magnolias, a play at Playmakers Repertory Theater in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. That's my alma mater, UNC Chapel Hill.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh, really?

[Sharon Lawrence]

Yes.

[Lisa Donovan]

Wait, when are you doing that? My family is now in North Carolina, so they live in Pinehurst.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Fantastic. It's an easy drive. We run April 8th through the 26th. Beth Grant, who you may know is our greatest character actress, will be in that play.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh, fantastic.

[Sharon Lawrence]

And I will continue to do a solo play about Katherine Graham that I've been doing for a while called the Shot.

[Lisa Donovan]

Oh, amazing.

[Sharon Lawrence]

It's an important story about the publisher of the Washington Post, who was publisher during the Watergate eras and the. But it's the story of her personal life, the struggles that she had. Her husband had bipolar disorder and took his life in 1963, and three days later, she took over the Post. But she suffered a great deal with his suffering. And we understand how she became the woman that she is, a reluctant but powerful leader because of the struggles that she faced. So I'm very proud of that. That piece, which, well, dates will be determined for.

[Lisa Donovan]

Okay.

[Sharon Lawrence]

I've been doing it for five years now, so it's out there.

[Lisa Donovan]

And you'll put it out. Your social media is Sharone Lawrence.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Sharon E. Standing for Elizabeth. That's my name. My mama. Once in a while, when she was calling to me from the back of the house to come home, it was Sharon Elizabeth.

[Lisa Donovan]

Well, thank you again so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. You're such a pro and a lovely spirit, and I'm honored that you are here today with me. Thank you.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Thank you. And I love that we have Lee Hilton Smith in common. She's be worth worth talking to.

[Lisa Donovan]

She. I'm going to contact her now.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Congratulations on this.

[Lisa Donovan]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Sharon Lawrence]

I enjoyed our time. Bye Bye.

[Lisa Donovan]

Me too.

[Public Investing Sponsor Voice]

Bye.

[Lisa Donovan]

I want to hear what cases you all are interested in hearing about. What are you watching that you want us to talk about? What actors or producers or directors do you want to hear from? Hit us up in our DMs iller thriller pod on Instagram and TikTok and let us know. And make sure to follow the pod on socials and subscribe to Amy and TJ Presents wherever you listen to podcasts. And that will wrap us up for today. Until next time.

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Special guests to discuss the latest and.

[Public Investing Sponsor Voice]

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[Fossil Sponsor Voice]

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[Sharon Lawrence]

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[Morton Buildings Sponsor Voice]

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[Lisa Donovan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sharon Lawrence]

Guaranteed Human.