Killer Thriller: The Chilling Downward Spiral of Aaron Hernandez

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present: Killer Thriller — The Chilling Downward Spiral of Aaron Hernandez
Episode Date: May 17, 2026
Host: Elisa Donovan
Guest: Dr. Rachel Toles (Forensic Psychologist)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of “Killer Thriller,” host Elisa Donovan and forensic psychologist Dr. Rachel Toles dive into the disturbing life and legacy of Aaron Hernandez, the NFL star whose meteoric rise ended in shocking violence and tragedy. Anchored by a discussion of the FX/Hulu series American Sports Story: Aaron Hernandez, this conversation explores how systemic failures, childhood trauma, football culture, repression, and untreated brain injury contributed to Hernandez’s downward spiral — and what his story reveals about American attitudes toward fame, masculinity, and accountability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Institutional Enablement and Consequences

[02:50–03:40]

• Elisa Donovan raises how institutions (high school, college football, NFL) prioritized Hernandez’s talent over his troubling behavior, asking if powerful systems unintentionally enable dangerous conduct.
• Dr. Rachel Toles: “We reward whatever makes money and whatever’s entertaining... No one really worries about their mental state.”
  [03:40]
• Comparisons are made to entertainers and actors who are similarly enabled when profitable, with Toles drawing a parallel between Jack Nicholson and Ted Bundy’s upbringings, emphasizing how differing familial circumstances and forms of support can lead to dramatically different outcomes.
  [04:10–06:52]

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The Role of Childhood Trauma and Attachment

[07:01–09:47]

• Discussion returns to Hernandez, focusing on how key authority figures (e.g., coach Urban Meyer at University of Florida) pressured him to mature quickly without attention to psychological readiness.
• Dr. Toles explains that unresolved childhood traumas, particularly those affecting attachment and a sense of safety, often manifest later as dysfunction:

  “If you think about everybody in your life... we haven’t changed that much from when we were four or five years old.” [07:38]

• Compassion is stressed for the damaged child inside every offender — not to excuse violence, but to understand its origins.

  “Most people aren’t killers, they don’t malfunction like this. I have absolute compassion... for the people who malfunction. I absolutely do not excuse.”
  [08:37]

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Performance, Survival, and Identity

[09:47–11:42]

• Football provided structure and a sense of self-worth, but when self-worth is solely performance-based, deeper trauma is obscured.
• Dr. Toles:

  “He learned... it was all about survival. I have to perform being straight guy, I have to perform being football guy who wins... All they know is they’re fighting for their life.” [10:03]

• The drive to dominate and survive can override introspection or authentic self-connection, especially when compounded by substance abuse.

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Fame, Boundaries, and Omnipotence

[11:42–12:49]

• Elisa Donovan asks about the impact of fame and the “godlike quality” of high-profile athletes.
• Dr. Toles: “If you’re God and if the world is treating you like God, there are no rules. The rules don’t apply to you... You just realize, yeah, the rules don’t apply. And for a long time, that does work.”
  [11:59]

---

Sexual Abuse, Shame, and Repression

[12:49–16:46]

• The trauma of sexual abuse — its secrecy, shame, and especially how boys often under-report — is discussed as a major factor in Hernandez’s psychological landscape.
• Dr. Toles highlights: “Boys... weigh under-report... There’s so much shame... and then if you think about ones that do realize they’re gay — it’s all of it. What is manhood?”
  [13:39–14:41]
• The profound, hidden love Hernandez had with another boy in high school is described as an example of a “true connection” made impossible by social judgment and his own self-condemnation.
• Quote: “In another world we could be together, you know, but unfortunately not this world. And that’s devastating.”
  [16:46]

---

Emotional Truth & Family Dynamics

[20:39–21:05, 22:21–24:54]

• Hernandez’s bond with his cousin Tanya Singleton, one of the few people he trusted and confided in about his sexuality, is explored.

  “She was very loyal... She was his true confidant. She really is like a safety blanket, the only place he feels safe.”
  [24:17–24:54]

---

The “Empty Person” – Diagnosing Emptiness & Personality Disorders

[24:54–28:07]

• Discussion on Hernandez’s self-description as “one empty person” —

  “When people, again, these are labels that we slap onto people... but with all personality disorders... these things all come from trauma.”
  [25:12–26:30]

• Dr. Toles cautions against overusing psychiatric labels, noting the risk of dehumanization, and points out that chronic emptiness can be a symptom of disorders rooted in deep-seated trauma.

---

The Media’s Role and Impact

[30:39–33:22]

• The hosts discuss media responsibility when, after being publicly outed by talk show hosts, Hernandez dies by suicide days later.
• Dr. Toles:

  “The media does it all the time. Whatever sells. Let’s get that salacious story... I think we need to be a lot more cognizant and kind."
  [31:26]

• She connects suicide (and homicide) to a lack of connection and human empathy.

---

Intervention & The Role of CTE/Substances

[35:42–39:06]

• Could intervention have helped Hernandez? Dr. Toles discusses his severe, repeated brain injuries and the compounding role of drugs and alcohol.
• Dr. Toles:

  “Had they got him sober somehow... Ideally, there could have been major interventions... The number one thing in all of these cases — drugs and alcohol need to be removed in every way possible.”
  [35:50–39:06]

• Offers a nuanced view: brain impairment, combined with substance abuse, can drive violent behavior in already traumatized individuals.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We reward whatever makes money and whatever’s entertaining... No one really worries about their mental state.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [03:40]
• “I have absolute compassion and curiosity about the people who malfunction. I absolutely do not excuse.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [08:37]
• “If you’re God and if the world is treating you like God, there are no rules. The rules don’t apply to you.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [11:59]
• “Boys... weigh under-report... There’s so much shame...”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [14:41]
• “She was his true confidant... She really is like a safety blanket, the only place he feels safe.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [24:54]
• “Chronic feelings of emptiness... can be linked to borderline personality disorder, which is... something of being split inside.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [27:00]
• “It is the lack of connection that causes either suicide or homicide, period, across the board.”
  — Dr. Rachel Toles [33:22]

---

Segment Timestamps

• Institutional/Enabler discussion & actor comparison: 02:50–06:52
• Focus on trauma and empathy for offenders: 07:01–09:47
• Performance, identity, and dominance: 09:47–12:49
• Sexual abuse and masculinity repression: 12:49–16:46
• Hernandez’s secret relationships: 20:39–24:54
• Personality disorders and emptiness: 24:54–28:07
• Media responsibility & public shaming: 30:39–33:22
• Possibility of intervention, CTE, substance use: 35:42–39:06

---

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, compassionate, and psychologically insightful, balancing empathy for Aaron Hernandez's pain without excusing his crimes. Through their exploration, Donovan and Toles criticize the systems that enable, repress, and ultimately destroy promising individuals — highlighting how trauma, societal expectations, prejudice, and profit incentives converge with tragic results.

Listeners walk away with a sobering understanding of the complex human, social, and medical story behind the headlines, and a call to greater empathy, accountability, and responsible media storytelling.

---

Transcript

[Elisa Donovan]

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[Dr. Rachel Toles]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Dr. Rachel Toles]

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[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Thriller with your host, Elisa Donovan.

[Elisa Donovan]

Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here and welcome to Killer Thriller. Today we are continuing our deep dive with forensic psychologist Dr. Rachel Toles into American Sports Story. Aaron Hernandez, the series that explores the shocking rise and fall of one of the NFL's most talented and most troubling figures. One thing that also stands out to me in this series is that how many institutions kept pushing him forward because he was so talented, whether it's the high school, college football, the NFL, and there just are seemingly no consequences for these athletes and the lawyers getting them out of all sorts of abominable behavior. And do you think that these. These powerful systems sometimes unintentionally, can enable dangerous behavior?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Absolutely. I mean, here's the thing we reward as a society. We reward whatever makes money and whatever's entertaining. So that means that a person can be out of their mind, completely out of their mind. But if they're entertaining, then just keep paying them. Because. Because people are wanting more. No one really worries about their mental state. I mean, think about how many people have been entertainers or, you know, so many actors.

[Elisa Donovan]

I mean, I have so many actors and.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Actors.

[Elisa Donovan]

A million names.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, actors. They are, you know, so fascinating. I often compare it because, you know, Jack Nicholson had a very similar upbringing to Ted Bundy, but there were a couple of differences. Turn Jack Nicholson into who he became versus Ted Bundy. Right. So, you know, because. No, because it's strange. Like, just. If you want, I can quickly tell you that that's because. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I'll just. Yes. So basically they were. Until this is. It's a crazy story. A lot of people don't know it. So when Ted Bundy. So, okay, so, okay, where do I start? So both Ted Bundy's mother and Jack Nicholson's mother got pregnant by a man they didn't really know. So, and this is at a time where there was a lot of stig. So your child was going to be illegitimate. That's what they called them. You're an illegitimate child because it's outside of marriage. Right. And both of these women, you know, Ted Bundy's mother. First of all, Ted Bundy's mother tried to abort him. She took an abortion pill. How he survived and how this pill affected his developing brain. I mean, these are the things again, we just think, oh, he was. He had normal childhood. No, he did not. And he also did not have a normal brain. But anyway, so. But he. He. Then she gave birth to him at the home for unwed mothers. And. And that's exactly what. With Jack Nicholson, you know, but they were brought. They were brought home on the one condition that the family maintained the fiction that mom is the sister and that the grandparents are the parents. And so that's how these guys were raised. So they were raised believing that their mother was their sister. They can't really bond that much because the neighbors will catch on. So there's not a whole lot of good attachment that's probably going on there. Right. But the difference is, for Ted Bundy, is that his grandmother, who played the role of his mother, was in and out of mental hospitals receiving shock treatment, and so he couldn't really bond with her either. And then Grandpa Sam was a really, like, scary, raging alcoholic. It was doing all sorts of things. Whereas Jack Nicholson's grandfather was not as violent or abusive or anything like that. And he was also really. He was, you know, encouraged to get into the arts and to express.

[Elisa Donovan]

To express himself, express it creatively.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

And so he played the role of the joker. He. He played the role of, you know, I think Jack in the Shining or what's his name. Yeah, yeah. So he's playing these roles, but then he, of course, lives this. This other life, whereas Ted Bundy is the roles, you know, so, like, right. Right here, you know, Jack Nicholson didn't find out that his family was a lie until he read about it in time magazine in 1974.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my God. Okay, we are definitely having you back

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

to talk about these things. I apologize. All my. I go up.

[Elisa Donovan]

Listen, I want to hear all of it, but. Okay, let's get back to Aaron Hernandez for a minute. Okay, so Urban Meyer, who was the coach at Florida University of Florida,

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

him

[Elisa Donovan]

pushing Aaron to graduate early and come to Florida is really a pretty striking thing in hindsight. And the series really shows that no one ever slowed down to care about his. Him. His psychological life and whether he was emotionally able to do that. How hard is it to focus on the trauma while not excusing the violence?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

I mean, for me, it's. It's. You know, I. That's the number one thing I focus on. To me, I think we're all. I look at all human beings as, like, little kindergartners. I mean, I'm not again. But, like, if you think about everybody in your life, who. Anybody who's your age or older, you know, exactly who they were in kindergarten, because we haven't changed that much from when we were four or five years old. We just are kind of the same essence, if you will. And so for me, I think as a society, we're really good at Accusing other people of having no empathy. But we're not really good at looking at the lack of empathy we feel for the people we accuse. And I think that's one of my biggest issues. It's like we're great at accusing other people of lacking empathy, but when we don't have empathy for them, what's up with that? Why aren't we asking? For me, I have a great deal of compassion for the child that became the man who then completely unraveled and basically reenacted things that he didn't. He was unable to put together properly in his brain. And that's basically what we're talking about with almost all murder cases. And what. Because most people aren't killers, they don't malfunction like this. So I have absolute compassion and. And curiosity about the people who malfunction. I absolutely do not excuse. So for me, I don't find. I mean, of course, with Odin Lloyd, I mean, it is so trag. And I feel horrible for the families. Number one, you have to always feel sympathy and show respect for the victim and for their loved ones. Because again, it's just unfortunate that sometimes you've just got an innocent person who just gets caught in the crossfire of someone malfunctioning. And so. But when you look at somebody like Aaron Hernandez, it's kind of like. Like he really is like a bus that like malfunctioned. And we don't call buses bad. Like, some buses are just bad. It's like. Or something in the wiring malfunctioned and caused the bus to go off the rails and kill, you know, one or possibly more people. Like, this is. We. We don't. But we. By labeling it again, we're not actually then looking at how a person could get there.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. The source and how we get there. So this also. The show also talks about how football gave Aaron structure and identity. So what happens when somebody's entire self worth gets tied to performance?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean that right there is what the problem is with a lot of people who kill is that if they're. If their entire identity is about performance, then what's going on inside. And if. If there's not really a deep connection inside, then that's where the mental illness can really kind of spiral out of control because there's not really a connection to self to know what do I. What am I actually to hear the introspection. It's like I have to perform to survive. Basically. He learned his whole. Like, it was all about survival. And, and that's it. Like, I have to perform to survive. I have to perform being straight guy. I have to perform being football guy who wins. I have to win it all. I have to perform whatever dad wanted. And I'm not lovable otherwise. Like, all they know is they're fighting for their life to survive and that's what the performance is. But it's such a hyper vigilance that for them to stop and say, wait a minute, who am I? I mean, that doesn't really cross their. It's not about who they are. It's all about survival. And if it's all about survival, than it is all about in the moment. I have to dominate in order to survive. I have to do whatever it takes to survive. And then of course, you add the alcohol, the drugs, the things that like are causing them to malfunction, then the reality again goes out the window to the point where whoever's in their way or whoever's going to be a threat to their survival needs to be removed. And, and because it's all, there's a level of performance with all of it, it doesn't feel as real as it would for other people.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. And then the fame as well. The fame has to have some major impact, right? Because it. Do you think the high profile athletes in particular, because it's also tied to the real true performance that they lose normal social boundaries and consequences because there's a godlike quality.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Because if you think about dominance when you're dominating on the field, if you're, I mean, when people, if they do murder and then they want to murder again, they experience a, a high from the dominance of that because it feels like they are godlike. So whatever there, there feels like this, this level of omnipotence which is the feeling of being all powerful, like God. It's like the sense of I am God. And, and if you're God and if the world is treating you like God, there are no rules. The rules don't apply to you. And then there's a sense of whatever I want, I can take and I can get away with anything. And, and you know, and, and I'm sure he got away with some things we will never know about, right? Because over time you just, you just realize, yeah, the rules don't apply. And for a long time that does work.

[Elisa Donovan]

And then how much of an impact does the homosexuality and having to hide that on top of. It's quite a soup.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah, exactly. It's, it's everything. So there's. So he, according to his brother in the book started getting sexually abused regularly at the age of seven, I think. I think around. Around seven by a babysitter. They were dropped off at the home to where they were to be babysat. And. And this was happening regularly. So he was of course, carrying this secret. And then. And just. And this is the thing with kids, like, even with sexual abuse, there's this. It's a deep, dark secret you don't tell parents. And boy. Boys, by the way, boys way under

[Elisa Donovan]

report in the series, they said it was his. An uncle and not a babysitter.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

But.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Well, in the book that his brother wrote, the brother said it was a babysitter. So I'm not really sure who it was, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was coming unfortunately from different directions because there is also some evidence from some people who've talked about and gone on record said that Aaron's father was also a victim of childhood sexual abuse. So, like, these things sometimes just keep getting passed down, unfortunately. The thing is with boys is they weigh under report and we don't talk about that. If you look at the statistics, it looks like girls are getting targeted way more, but girls are way more open eventually about talking about it, whereas boys, there's so much shame because then if you think about ones that then do realize they're gay and then it's like just what it means in society. It's all of it. It's just what is manhood? So it's all, you know, so he had to repress, repress, repress and not talk about a lot of these things because yeah, predators, by the way, often say they don't go after girls because girls talk too much. So that's why they go after boys.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Because boys do not report it as much as it happens. So anyway. But yes, so on top of like the traumas of that. And the other thing is, is what's confusing to a child if they are being targeted is that there's. There's an element to sexual abuse that sometimes feels good. And then if you are getting pleasure from that, then you start to blame yourself. Like, then I'm asking for this. And maybe, you know, so then you just start blaming yourself. And then of course, the predator, often they'll say things like, well, you, you, you seduced me. They'll. They'll turn it around. They're very good at that. And then you think, oh, yeah, I guess maybe I did seduce. And so on top of that deep, dark secret. So where he's wetting the bed and his father's getting angry with him about wetting the bed. And there's all these secrets going on. And then having this secret later on of being gay and what that means in football culture, what that means to be a man. And his father calling him and all these things, piling and piling and piling. I mean, absolutely. And then, of course, and I don't know if in this, in this, in this series, if they looked at how he would get drunk and openly flirt with male bartenders and that his friend, you know, a friend of his would say, aaron, you can't do this here. This is Hollywood. You're going to be on TMZ in two days. Oh.

[Elisa Donovan]

So they don't do that as much. There are a couple of moments where he. They have it more that it's. He's hiding it. Certainly. There are a couple of moments where he does something a little demonstrative and it's like, you know, sort of brushed over a little bit. But they really do show, you know, that he had a somewhat meaningful relationship with another boy in high school when they were growing up. And that thing of. It could be, you know, it's heartbreaking because you think, like, this is. There's a true connection that these two young boys had, both in a. In a physical way, but in an emotional way. And, and it's just very clear that that was just unacceptable. Like, unimaginable for him. Like the judgment that he had on himself.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

That's right. And some people say they really did. They fell in love. I mean, that's. Or at least he fell in love with this guy. I mean, like, that it was there and that. Yeah, that in another world, I'm sure there are moments of like, in another world we could be together, you know, but unfortunately not this world. And that's devastating. So each moment for a real connection. And then even like, you know, and I'm sure he loved his fiance, but like, there's also probably a level of performance of like, how I have to be in that relationship. Like, whatever that was. Like, I mean, of course he loved her. I know they were close friends. And of course, you know, and I'm not sure how in love with. I mean, I know that there was a deep love and it's just the whole thing is just one tragic thing after another. Amazon Health AI presents PAINFUL Thoughts why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I could never unsee that. Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Elisa Donovan]

I Feel like the show does a really nice job of that, too, of kind of showing some of the complexity of their relationship. And then her needing to stay by his side, which you can imagine as your partner and your. Your friend and the father of your child, but then also her anger, like, it's, It's.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

It is.

[Elisa Donovan]

It's just one tragic thing after another.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

And then, of course, I mean, and this is where. And I don't know what they. They did in this series, but, like, so Aaron, two nights before Odin is killed, he spends the evening with Odin, like, until they're together, till 11am the next day. And when Eren gets home, he finds his mom and fiance waiting for brunch. And they watch as Aaron hands Odin the keys to the rental car and reminding him to return it. Aaron's drunk as a skunk and wearing different clothes than the ones he had on the night before. Two nights later, Aaron picks Odin up again, and within hours, he's shot dead. So the question is like. Like there are three. Like, why did Aaron kill Odin? Because I think this is the question on so many people's mind. Is it because maybe there was something where Aaron may have even, you know, came out to him or something, right, in a panic of shame and fear of exposure, killed him? Or did Odin know something about Aaron's criminal activities that put him at risk? Or obviously, did his paranoid delusion finally just get the best of him? I mean, prosecutors are argue that Hernandez believed that Lloyd had either talked too much, knew too much, or could no longer be trusted. But it's like, because he said something like, you can't trust anyone anymore. But it's like, trust him with what? Like, is it something that, like, he knew about, for example, potential Boston murders? Like, what. What are we talking about here?

[Elisa Donovan]

Like, that's kind of how they cover it in the. In the series, that it's certainly a little blurry for him, but that he's insinuating that Odin knows something about Boston, about the other murders, and they don't really suggest that it could be anything about his sexuality, but certainly more that he could have said something and doesn't remember that he told him, and then spirals into, like, the paranoia about it. So the relationship that Aaron had with his cousin, Tanya Singleton, she died from cancer in 2015 in the show. And I think from what I've read, this is real in life, that it's portrayed as one of the few places where Aaron seemed to be emotionally exposed. So do violent offenders sometimes still maintain deeply meaningful relationships, emotional Absolutely.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

I mean, again, even talking about, like, serial killers, they can absolutely love their wives and their children. And they do love them. They know how to love. They just compartmentalize. And the other people who they kill, they're in a different section. They're objects for whatever reason. Like, they just become the target of whatever. So. Absolutely. I mean, Tanya, that whole story is fascinating probably because, you know that, like, he finds out that his, like, so on top of his father dying at 16, father dies suddenly. Then it comes to light that Aaron's mom has been secretly having sex with his cousin Tanya's husband. And then they become a couple. It's a huge scandal. So Aaron at that moment hates his mother. He moves in with Tan. And, and so then of course, she has friends that have criminal records, and that's where he starts smoking a lot of weed. But she's the only one at that point that knows his secrets. He comes out to her and he tells her he, He's. She's the only person at that time he felt safe with her and he told her he's gay and she took it to the grave. She didn't tell anybody. She. She was very loyal.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow. So they kind of allude to that, that she may, they may have been transparent, but they don't outwardly say it. It in the series.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

So he, yeah, she is the only one that knew his secret and she took it to the grave because obviously he didn't come out about being gay till he was in prison and he tells his mother. But he, you know, but the whole. It's, it's very. But yeah, Tanya was one of his most important people, like his true confidant. And she really is like a safety blanket, the only place he feels safe. And, and you know, so.

[Elisa Donovan]

So I read in, in the, the Boston Globe article that Aaron once said to Tanya during a jailhouse visit, I'm just one empty person. And I've been like that for so long. So when someone describes themselves that way, is that clinically meaningful?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

It can be. I mean, you know, people love to be armchair psychologists when it comes to things.

[Elisa Donovan]

Not me. Not me.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Not you. No, I'm sure. No, no, no, I'm kidding. I definitely am.

[Elisa Donovan]

I definitely am.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

But just as far as when it comes to personality disorders, and it drives me bananas. Right now I'm writing a book that's going to be coming out fall of 2027, called inventing the Psychopath, where I not just examine how we basically invented psychopathy as a concept. But then on top of that when we talk about personality disorders like borderline and narcissistic personality and antisocial, these, these, these are, you know, when people, again, these are labels that we slap onto people. And one of the things, when it comes to borderline personality disorder, and it's true clinically, you could say that that is the personality disorder that somebody has if they have chronic feelings of emptiness. We know that that is definitely something clinically that shows up. But, and, and so, yeah, so we can look at the symptoms and we can look at the behaviors. And I have no issues with that. My issue is that things like the label of borderline or narcissistic, they get thrown around so much that immediately then we label the person that we stop treating them like human beings. That's what you are and that's what matters. You're a borderline or you're a narcissist. And these are things like we know with all personality disorders, just like with this concept of psychopathy, which is not an official medical diagnosis diagnosis, it's just like a theory. Basically these things all come from trauma. They all come from trauma. And it's not like a narcissist really likes themselves. They tend to hate themselves. And so it's a matter across the board. They do, they, they don't like in their own skin. That's why they're so defended and they're always playing the role. Getting back to the idea of the performance, right? It's all defense, defense, defense. And so if you suffer enough trauma, you're going to have different defenses. And yes, males are more likely to develop the defense of narcissistic personality disorder and females are more likely to develop the defense of borderline personality or, but, but now because these terms have been sullied so much, actually we need to get different terms for them. They're just again, lack of empathy. The minute you throw out those terms, yes, clinically, that chronic, those chronic feelings of emptiness is, can be linked with the personality disorder of borderline personality disorder, which is a like something of being split inside. Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts. Why did I search the Internet for answers? To Michael Sore problem. Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that. Don't go down the rabbit hole.

[Kal Penn]

Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Health care just got less painful.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Paramount Series Narrator]

May 22nd on Paramount from executive producer Lena Waithe the acclaimed series the Shy reaches its final chapter. For seven seasons, these stories, these streets, this community have stayed with us. Now it all leads to this. Will Tiff uncover who killed Rob? Will Victor and Shad find their freedom? And can Keisha and Emmett survive? What's ahead? As friendships are tested, families evolve, and secrets refuse to stay buried, one thing is certain. The Shy is more than just a series. It's a legacy. Say goodbye to the Shy. Don't miss the final season. Streaming May 22nd on the Paramount Premium Plan.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary, Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elisa Donovan]

Let's talk a little bit about the media influence here. So Aaron goes back to court trial for the murder of the two people in the car in Boston and he is found not guilty of that. Then two days later, these talk show hosts, which I don't even want to say who they are, have this conversation and they have a guest on who basically they start to inflame this whole thing and out Aaron Hernandez as being gay. And then is it the following day or two days later he commits suicide in jail. So how much responsibility does the media hold for these sorts of things, in your opinion?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Oh, I mean, it's tough because unfortunately when you have a public personality, I mean, when you're public facing and this is your job and now you're, you're famous like Aaron Hernandez or whatever, people do feel like they have the right to talk publicly about you in every single way. I mean the media does it all the time. Whatever sells. Let's get that, that salacious story, like let's get it, you know, happening and so people. But as far as responsibility, I think it's. I am not a fan with how the media handles a lot of things. I don't think we should be advertising the names of mass shooters because it's just basically a how to guide to become famous. And so they're different things. So yes, I think that when it comes, you know, Aaron, him taking his own life, it could, I mean, obviously potentially had in part to do with that. But I think it was again, a whole bunch of things that just piled. But yes, that might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. We just don't know exactly what it was. But yes, I think we need to be, we need to be a lot more cognizant and kind when it comes to the people we talk about because these are human beings and it's so easy to look at somebody once their age, an idea once they're a character in the me like people look at. Yes, like that they're a character, that they're not a real person. So then they treat them that way and it's like, but this is a human being who has feelings and is just doing their best. We're all just doing our best. We, you know, we really are. And if we can think about humans that way, then again maybe we can have more compassion for them because, you know, most humans want to have a good life and have connection with other human beings. And it is the, it's the lack of connection that causes either suicide or homicide, period, across the board.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. And it's such a complex relationship between fame and the public and how we all seem to want that. And then, but then you want to demonize the people who have it because you don't have it. Like it's so. And it's all in layer. I mean, that's A whole other show. I can talk about that, but it's very complicated. And people often do look at people in the public eye and assume they have every opportunity, every resource, so they should, they're held to a different standard. And I, I, I agree with that to a certain degree. Like, yes, you, if you've achieved a certain amount of success and fame such that, you know, people know who you are and they appreciate what you do, then I think there is a, you, you, you need to sort of reflect being a good person and all that sort of stuff.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Once you have a certain something, yes, the public feels like they have more access to you. And yes, there are certain ways that you do have maybe more responsibility to ideally, because you also, the people who have a lot of young people looking up to them, you got to think about, about, like, okay, what's your responsibility to those young people and what kind of role model do you want to be? Because you're giving them hope about what the future is going to be. And in some ways I do think that carries a lot of responsibility. So in each way, everyone has their own roles. And then, you know, of course, if you're playing the role of, you know, someone who's kind of like dark and what then? Then, yeah, then you can play that role and you can continue. But like, if you're playing the role of, of kind of like the all American something or like, I mean, someone like Taylor Swift, for example, like, I think has to on some level carry herself in a certain way because she has a lot of responsibility for these young people that are looking up to her, like they want to be her. And so it's just, so it's tricky. Obviously, it's tricky. There's no rule book. Right. But you just, on some level, you need to know where your boundaries are and, and who you're being and, and what your reason for being, being that. Because ideally, if you want to make the world a better place, then, you know, make choices in that direction.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. Okay, just one more or maybe two quick things about Aaron Hernandez.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

So, yes.

[Elisa Donovan]

Looking back, do you think that intervention for him was realistically possible at any point in time?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah, it would have been. I mean, the thing is, okay, so something that, that again, going back to this is where it gets tricky because he doesn't even realize, you know, at some, like he doesn't realize he is suffering from serious brain damage. Just to go through the list, I know I kind of mentioned, but it's at age 7, he gets multiple concussions from tackle football at 8, a hammer strikes him on the head so hard that blood pours out of his nose and ears, knocking him unconscious. But of course, the high school football field is when the damage really accelerates. And of course, then it's later revealed that Aaron has the most extreme case of chronic traumatic encephalopathy ever documented in someone his age. His brain is deteriorating at an alarming rate. So the lesions that were mentioned, you know, amygdala and frontal lobe, which are areas responsible for regulating aggression, impulsivity, poor moral judgment, paranoia, that kind of stuff, of course, he exhibits all of the above. So you know that like, yes, his brain is already declining. I mean, it's deteriorating. But. But then you've got the drugs and the alcohol and those kinds of things. And I just think, and I say this with, across the board, with offenders, somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, I believe that had Jeffrey Dahmer not been an alcoholic, I don't think he would have turned into a serial killer. Alcohol and drugs, when you have already got a compromised brain for whatever reasons because you were exposed to various things and you have not processed them properly, now your brain is, like I mentioned earlier, compromised. That is the number one thing. And I tell people, if you're afraid you're going to be violent, you need to stay away from substances, because it's the substances that really tip you over the edge. Because you'll go into that dream state because the alcohol or the drugs are hitting the areas that are already compromised in your brain. And then you're just like, you lose reality. And that's not like the normal person who doesn't have a damaged brain like that. So that's where, yes, intervention had. They got him sober somehow. I mean, again, what do you do? You can't. You can't lock him up. I mean, they did lock him up, but, like, you can't. Before he, you know, murders, ideally, there could have been major interventions where, like, they, you know, they, they, you know, and then it's like, how was he still playing football if he was, you know, was he being drug tested? Like, I don't even know how any of that.

[Elisa Donovan]

Like, these are all of those things,

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

you know, these are the confusing things. Like, the minute he's drug tested, he needed to be, you know, you know, put on probate, you know, and the

[Elisa Donovan]

NFL says that he never failed a drug test over the course of his career. But, like, okay, I believe that. Like, I believe, you know.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah. Yes, like, or he gave them different urine and they didn't bother thinking that they should probably watch him pee in a whatever, like whatever, whatever the test was. He may have fooled them, but I don't know how. Like I think he was on drugs. So I don't know how he got, you know, I think yeah, we've got to watch him them. So yes, there should have been intervention. I think the number one thing in all of these cases, you know, needs to be number drugs and alcohol need to be removed in every way possible. And, and I know that that's hard because what they're. The reason why they're doing the drugs and alcohol is because they're numbing the pain they don't want to face. So that's the tricky circular and then

[Elisa Donovan]

the machine has to keep going, that he has to keep performing. So the coaches are not going to do that. The NFL's not going to do that, right?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yes, exactly.

[Elisa Donovan]

Well, we're just gonna have you back like, like every week or something because there are so many, many more things that I would love to talk with you about and I just love this format because you get to really have a longer conversation about things instead of, you know, I really appreciate that. So thank you for all of your time.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Thank you.

[Elisa Donovan]

Tell us your website.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Yeah, so my website is Dr. So Dr. Rachel R a C h e l toles t o l e s com. So Dr. Racheltoles. Com. Right. And you can reach me there. You can also find me on socials like Instagram, T O L Z H A U S Toles House is my handle, but you can just find me under Dr. Rachel Toles as well. Tick tock Insta, Facebook a lot and

[Elisa Donovan]

we'll put all that in the notes and the American Sports Story Aaron Hernandez is streaming on Hulu, which is the narrative series that we spoke about. Dr. Rachel, you're just. This has been wonderful and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for all you're doing.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

It's such a pleasure. I really enjoyed this conversation and yes, I look forward to having more in the future.

[Elisa Donovan]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Thank you.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of your can feel impossible. That's why premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R-.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kalpen. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. You ever wonder how far an EV can take you on one charge? Well, most people drive about 40 miles a day, which means you can do all daily stuff no problem. Go to work, grab the kids at school, get the groceries and still have enough charge to visit your in laws in the next county. But they don't need to know that. And the best part? You won't have to buy gas at all. The way forward is electric. Explore EVs that fit your life at electricforall.org

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

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[Elisa Donovan]

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[Dr. Rachel Toles]

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