Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Getting Sucked In (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson)

Summary

Killer Thriller: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Getting Sucked In

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: (Appears to be Elisa Donovan for this episode)
Date: January 23, 2026
Guest: Sarah Edmondson, NXIVM survivor and whistleblower

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode of "Killer Thriller," host Elisa Donovan delves into the harrowing reality behind the NXIVM cult, focusing on the lived experience of Sarah Edmondson—a former high-ranking member turned whistleblower. The episode navigates Sarah's journey from her initial recruitment into what seemed to be a self-improvement group, through the manipulative and coercive practices of NXIVM, to her pivotal role in exposing its crimes. The story traverses personal vulnerabilities, cult indoctrination methods, Hollywood dramatizations of the scandal, and the psychological aftermath for those who escaped.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sarah Edmondson’s Introduction and Public Role

• Background: Sarah spent over a decade in NXIVM, rising to coach-level, opening the Vancouver center, and eventually joining the secretive sorority DOS.
• Whistleblower: After realizing the extent of the group's abuse, Sarah became a public face for exposing NXIVM ("...whether it was what you wanted it to be or not." — Donovan, 04:42).

2. Impact of Hollywood Dramatizations

• A&E Film Critique: Discussion on the dramatization via "Escaping the NXIVM Cult" (06:23–12:51)
  • Sarah found the film "grossly inaccurate" and emotionally difficult to watch due to incorrect portrayals of key figures and events.
  • Quote: “Keith was not handsome ... The casting was so bad. Whoever cast—I’m sorry, you didn’t do your research.” (Edmondson, 08:12)
• Consequences of Simplification:
  • Both agree that oversimplified dramatizations can be dangerous, leading viewers to distance themselves from potential victimization.
  • Quote: “Then someone would watch it and say, well, I would never do that. I’d never be that foolish or that naive.” (Donovan, 13:24)

3. “The Vow” Docuseries and Its Healing Power

• Documenting Reality: The making of HBO’s "The Vow," initially just for personal protection and documentation, later became a pivotal public education tool.
• Healing Through Community：「...for most part, it was healing because we were connected as a team and we weren’t alone.” (Edmondson, 16:12)
• Navigating Trauma in the Public Eye: Sarah’s husband, Nippy, sometimes resisted public retelling—“I don’t want my trauma to be other people’s entertainment.” (Edmondson, 16:54)

4. Personal Vulnerabilities and the Lure of Self-Improvement

• Sarah’s Mindset Pre-NXIVM (21:09–24:32)
  • Ambivalence about her acting career and a search for purpose and belonging set the stage.
  • Quote: “I wasn’t where I thought I should be as an actress ... I wasn’t feeling fulfilled.” (Edmondson, 21:09)
  • “Looking for people, belonging...” (Edmondson, 22:26)
• Situational Vulnerability: Both acknowledge that joining cults often coincides with moments of emotional need or upheaval.
  • *Donovan’s anecdote about being approached by Scientology after a career setback (24:50–27:03) underscores the susceptibility anyone can face during a vulnerable moment.

5. Keith Raniere’s Manipulative Persona

• Initial Impressions (28:11–29:36)
  • Sarah describes her first meeting with Keith as underwhelming—“...just seemed like a normal, nerdy, schlubby dude.”
  • The cult's narrative reframed his ordinariness as “bringing himself to our level.”
• How Indoctrination Unfolds: Through subtle reframing and group pressure, members learn to suppress warnings and discomfort.

6. The 5-Day Seminar and Indoctrination Techniques

• The “Third Day” Pivot (29:46–31:46)
  • Mark Vicente encouraged Sarah to “...stick with it. Third day,” a pivotal point where participants are primed for belief replacement.
  • Quote: “By day five, I was a zealot. By day five, I was completely recruited.” (Edmondson, 31:46)
• Systematic Breaking Down of Instincts:
  • Members are trained to see discomfort as a sign of personal flaws, not red flags about the group. (“...if you’re uncomfortable... you probably have some suppression issues ... so sashes are fine.” — Edmondson, 33:37)

7. Sarah’s Success and Cognitive Dissonance

• Material and Emotional Rewards (38:24–41:44)
  • Financial success, career fulfillment, and a sense of helping others kept Sarah—and others—deeply invested.
  • Quote: "I sold my Honda Civic and bought a brand new Mini Cooper convertible..." (Edmondson, 40:43)

8. Introduction to DOS and the “Collateral” System

• Secret Sisterhood (44:16–47:04)
  • Recruited by close friend Lauren Salzman, Sarah was asked to submit “collateral” (damaging personal information, true or fabricated) before even learning what DOS was.
• Coercive Collateralization:
  • The practice was already normalized within NXIVM before DOS's emergence.
  • Quote: “I had to embellish it and so I wrote something worse with lies. ... I felt very uncomfortable, and I told her that, and she said, that’s perfect.” (Edmondson, 49:26)

9. Manipulation, Control, and the Role of Food/Weight

• Keith’s Direct Influence (47:18–49:13)
  • Members were pressured over diet and self-control, with Sarah acknowledging only in retrospect how systematic and insidious this was.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Her Role as Whistleblower:
  “It certainly was not what I planned, but ... I joined Nexium to figure out my purpose.” (Edmondson, 05:17)

• On the Danger of Oversimplification:
  “Then someone would watch it and say, well, I would never do that. ... That’s the opposite of ‘The Vow’ for us.” (Edmondson, 13:24)

• On Indoctrination:
  “By day five, I was a zealot. By day five, I was completely recruited.” (Edmondson, 31:46)

• On Doubt and Suppression:
  “If you’re uncomfortable with the sashes, you probably have ... suppression issues ... so sashes are fine, right?” (Edmondson, 33:37)

• On Collateral in DOS:
  “So I had to embellish it and so I wrote something worse with lies ... I felt very uncomfortable, and I told her that, and she said, that’s perfect.” (Edmondson, 49:26)

• On Keith Raniere: “He just seemed like a normal, nerdy, schlubby dude ... my husband calls him a dirty laundry bag.” (Edmondson, 29:00)

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Timestamps for Critical Sections

• [05:17] Sarah discusses joining NXIVM to “find her purpose.”
• [06:23–12:51] Critique of the A&E dramatization and the gap between reality and television.
• [13:24] The danger of simplifying cult stories for TV.
• [16:12–17:13] Behind the making and impact of “The Vow.”
• [21:09–24:32] Sarah’s emotional state and vulnerability before joining.
• [27:03] Recruitment and situational vulnerability.
• [28:11–29:36] First impressions of Keith Raniere and reframing of unusual behavior.
• [29:46–31:46] The indoctrination process and five-day seminar.
• [33:37] How NXIVM manipulated members to suppress instincts.
• [38:24–41:44] Perceived success, sense of purpose, and belonging within NXIVM.
• [44:16–47:04] Introduction to DOS, collateral, and normalization of extreme behaviors.
• [49:26] Sarah’s coerced collateral and the manipulation embedded in the system.

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation balances candor, vulnerability, and an unflinching eye toward the details—a tone set by Elisa Donovan’s empathetic yet probing questions and Sarah Edmondson’s self-awareness and honesty. The horrific realities of NXIVM are not just recounted as headlines but rendered through the palpable psychological toll on survivors. The episode also serves as a cautionary parable about the universality of vulnerability, the covert ways cults manipulate, and the importance of reflection—without victim-blaming those who get entangled.

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Next episode: The conversation promises to dive deeper into Sarah’s DOS experience, the process of leaving NXIVM, and her ongoing advocacy and healing.

Transcript

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resource with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. And it's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com what.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

If mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Ryder Strong]

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Ryder Strong]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious mind games.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

A new podcast exploring nlp, AKA Neuro linguistic programming. Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, Body Bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Ryder Strong]

This is Ryder Strong and I have a new podcast called the red weather. In 1995, my neighbor Anna Trainor disappeared from a commune. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then I lied to everybody.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

They have had this case for 30 years.

[Ryder Strong]

I'm going back to my hometown to uncover the truth. Listen to the Red Weather Starting on January 28th at the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bowen Yang]

Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present kill.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thriller with your host, Elisa Donovan.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here. Back with a new episode of Killer Thriller today. Oh boy, am I excited about my guest today. Today we are going to step into the real story behind a dramatization that still leaves a mark. Escaping the Nexium Cult, a mother's fight to save her daughter. So NXIVM presented itself as a coach, coaching and mentorship program. But authorities later described it as a cult like organization tied to sex trafficking, exploitation and manipulation. And its one time leader, Keith Ranieri, is now serving 120 years in federal prison. Our guest today is Sarah Edmondson. Sarah is extraordinary. As far as I'm concerned. She spent more than a decade in nxivm. She rose from student to coach. She ran in and opened and ran a Nexium senate in Vancouver and then was later recruited into a secret sorority group, quote unquote with NXIVM called dos, where women were branded and they were being groomed to have sex with the leader. After leaving Nexium, Sarah made the decision to go public and she became one of the first insiders to blow the whistle on this group. And she helped to expose a system that prosecutors later described as criminal, coercive and exploitative. She chronicled her experience in her 2019 book, Scarred. I cannot wait to speak with Sarah about her experiences inside NXIVM and what she is doing now. Let's bring Sarah on. Welcome Sarah Edmondson. I'm just really honored to talk with you because I remember when I first read the New York Times article and I had this like download feeling in my whole body of like, holy cow, this woman, like this is her life's purpose now. Like she is supposed to do this because it's a very unique position in my opinion. You tell me if I'm wrong that you hold, which is you're incredibly articulate, you're very smart, you're very self aware. And as soon as you realized that, that things were really sideways, you like made that shift and went no, no, no, no, no. And immediately tried to not only extricate yourself, but take responsibility and accountability. I just think all of those things are really impressive and miraculous. And it's like you answered sort of the call of your life whether it was what you were wanted it to be or not.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I appreciate you saying that. It certainly was not what I planned, but it was definitely, you know, kind of ironic, especially because I joined Nexium to figure out my purpose.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

So.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. You know, it was. You gotta be really clear about what when you ask for things.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I gotta.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I want to figure out my purpose. All right, well, okay, here we go. But yeah, I appreciate that. It's very kind words and I had no idea that even that article would have, you know, the impact that it did.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yes. So. So let's talk about in in 2019, you published a book about your experience. It's called the True Story of How I Escaped the Cult that Bound My Life. And we are definitely going to get into that. But the same year, the NXIVM story was dramatized in the A and E film Escaping the NXIV cult, A mother's Fight to Save Her Daughter, which that film centers on Katherine Oxenberg's fight to get her daughter. So first, have you seen the movie? Do you remember it? Do you think it's accurate?

[Sarah Edmondson]

So a couple things. I'm. I feel like I need to be careful because I'm super grateful to all the films that I did back when I was acting with Lifetime, and they've always treated me very well, however I felt. And no, not however. And this was a very hard film to watch. Now, granted, I will say I was not in the best pace. Scarred had just come out and I was on a book tour and I didn't know it at the time, but I was having an adverse reaction to some sleeping medication and I was spiraling. And I. I think it was also in combination with the stress of doing like rapid press, like Entertainment Tonight and all the things that I was running around and doing and not being super grounded. I had a six week. No, six, six month old. I had a new baby. I was dealing with postpartum stuff and I was emotionally, like, kind of rocked. And I didn't know it at the time that I was dealing with those things. I just thought, right, well.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

And also just the fact of what you're talking about in the press tour, like I would imagine, it's like you're still healing from it and processing in different ways. And I know it's a lot.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was a lot. It was dealing with a lot. And this is two years, you know, two and a bit years out. I thought I was healed like I. And I was doing. I would done. I. I was quite well when I was pregnant with Ace is just after the postpartum and the book tour and all those things. So anyway, the series or the movie came out in that time for me. So I want to preface it that I'm viewing it through that filter. So I did not enjoy watching it. I just found it, like, grossly inaccurate. I mean, just the fact that Keith Renari was played by a handsome, charismatic.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

That was my problem with it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, right. With like Peter Falcone.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

I think his name was Facinelli.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, that's right. That's right. Didn't know who he was. He's very handsome. Keith was not handsome. Like, there's just, like, that's bad cat. Like, the casting was so bad. Whoever cast. I'm sorry you didn't do your research. And it was not. Would not have been hard to. To research properly. And I don't know why Catherine, who was there and met Keith and met Nancy and produced it, if I recall, like, why she wouldn't, like, steer them in the right direction. We've never talked about that. But Nancy Salzman was also played very like a school marm. Like a strict kind of, like, if I recall, very sort of stoic. And no, you're not doing it right. Versus Nancy's, like, expressive and she's over the top to the point that people are uncomfortable with her level of expression. Like, hi, I'm Nancy Salzman. Welcome to Executive Success.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

You know, that's what big freaks me out. It's very big. Very big. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And if you were to, by the way, little tangent, if you were to ever express that in class, which people did, they would say, and sometimes even preempted it, that some people who had issues with her level of expression or were probably suppressive and because, or, or, or had suppression or had expression issues, like, you know, so you learn to not say that.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

This is one of the things that I'm sure will come up a million times as we're talking, but I was so struck by. It's in essence the entire philosophy, or what it turns into, certainly is really a lesson in how to deny your instincts. And it's like this inversion, twisting of that, you know, of. Instead of saying, it's just so manipulative. It's so manipulative.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And of course, there was somebody playing me.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Playing you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's what I was gonna ask.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yeah. Do you remember that at all?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, she looked completely unhinged, which was really. Yeah, she was. She was just like, like full, crazy eyes. Like I got branded. Like, I don't.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Oh, boy. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Certainly there was a time when I was kind of unhinged, when I was figuring things out, but I don't. I, I. When I heard that this was being made, I offered to say, like, if any, if the actress wants to talk to me, I'm happy to talk to her. Give her my book. None of that. No, they didn't. Which is also weird because, you know, Catherine's involved and she's got my number. And like, I don't know.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

That is strange. I do think that's strange because I was going to say, you know, with, especially with Lifetime, a Need these, like, oftentimes these movies happen very quickly, so maybe they don't like have the time to talk to people or whatever. But in that circumstance, because Katherine clearly knew you and India knew you, it does seem odd that they wouldn't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It does seem odd, yeah. I mean, the whole, the whole thing is strange also, you know, and I thought of this when you were talking about the Murdoch murders, which, by the way, I don't know anything about because it's not cult related and I don't have the bandwidth, so I have to go and watch that show. But so good. It's on my list now, so thank you for that. But I remember you saying, like, these people are alive. Like they're, they're playing people or some of them. Sorry, I know some people are not. But, but the, there are characters that are being portrayed who are out there in the world and that's, you know, when they make a movie like that.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

You have a responsibility.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There's a responsibility. And you should like, maybe let's see what they, how they talk or how they express. And they. Guys cut a lot of things wrong. Like, I think they had the wrong sash color on Bonnie, which nobody would notice or care, but for any of us watching would be like, right, not a green sash, she's an orange sash, whatever, all that stupid stuff.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But. Oh, sorry, I tangented. I'm highly caffeinated. Bear with me. Because of what you said about Murdoch, I was thinking, you know, this is, this is the story told from India's perspective, you know, and India's story is very different than my story and it's very different than even Alison Mack's story, even though they overlap and there's so many other women that you don't even know about and that I don't even know about. Like, there's huge body count. So I'm watching it from the perspective of like, well, that didn't happen to me. That didn't happen to me. I know that happened in India. Did it happen that way? No, the, the way that it was written, the way that like the Keith character propositioned the India character. That's not how it happens. It's not. That wasn't accurate. Like, it, it wasn't like, hey, do you want to sleep with me? And then I'll give him to give you a brand, you know, like, no.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right. That seems like a very simplified version of things which I think is almost, you know, dangerous to sort of just everything especially certainly, which we, I, we will certainly get, you know, the work that you're doing now to kind of help people not fall into those sorts of traps and things, but it feels like to kind of simplify something in that way. Then someone would watch it and say, well, I would never do that. You know, I'd never be that. I'd never be that foolish or that naive.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Which is the opposite of the Vow for us.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yes. Which I just. I had a sort of. I learned about NXIVM because, believe it or not, at the time, in 2016, I had signed with this new manager, and I looked who her clients were, and the most prominent client was Allison Mack. And I was like, oh, I. I don't know. Like, I thought I should know Allison because we were sort of in the same circles, but I didn't know her. I knew a couple of other people on Smallville, but I didn't know her. And then I was like. And I thought, well, this is a great parallel. Both, like, you know, actresses on TV in the 90s and maybe, like, reinventing their careers or something. And then I looked and I was like, well, she hasn't really worked. And then I Googled her, and I find this, like, interview that she's sitting across from this man who looks like he is brainwashing her. And I was like, what is this? And that's how I sort of, like, it came. And then I just became obsessed. Like, what is going on with this person? That's wild. I just rewatched the Vow, and I just, like, I wonder, was that a. Was it at all healing for you guys while you were doing it, or did it just feel like this is a mission? We have to, you know, like, tell me what that experience was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, it was probably different at different times because we shot the Vow, like, start to finish over a couple of years, so.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Oh, you did? Okay. Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. But I would say that there was a time at the beginning when, like, you know, we didn't know it was going to be the Vow. We didn't know it was going to be a documentary on hbo. We didn't know that millions of people would watch it. During COVID Covid. We were filming it partly for protection so that if. If.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

And Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, the Bronfin lawyers are to come after us, we say, yeah, we're warning people. We're not trying to, like, dismantle. Like, it's not. You can't do tortious interference or whatever it's called. This is us warning people about criminal activity. You know, there was that element, and then there was. We just need to document, like, we need. We don't know what. We don't know what's going to happen. To document everything. And then we realized we had something very, you know, special on our hands as it became like. As we were further away from it. And that's when, you know, different, you know, production companies were swooping in and different offers were on the table. That's when I actually also had a lifetime offer somewhere before that other. The Lifetime movie was made. And we were just like. But that's not the route I wanted to go, you know, with us, with this story. And we, you know, we took meetings and met people and ultimately we really trusted the filmmakers, partly because, I don't know if you know this. Jahan had taken. The director had taken curriculum.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Oh, yes, I read that. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Yeah. So we knew her, we trusted her. And she was in a training in LA with Mark Vicente as he was, like, waking up and she was the first one to be like, I think we should just film this. Let's just throw a camera on you as you deconstruct your last 12, 13 years. And that's your question. I think for, like, in most part, it was. It was healing because we were connected as a team and we weren't alone. So that was good. There was some strife. You know, there was a time and many times when Nippy was like, I'm done. I don't want. I don't want to do this.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

I don't want to do the series. Like, I don't want to do that. He just.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He just didn't want to be. He's just. His line had always been, I don't want my trauma to be other people's entertainment.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Understandable.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And I understood that. And then I was also like, this is important, though. But we didn't know how important. And then ultimately, you know, we're all. We're just all so happy with how it. It turned out and the impact that.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

It's extraordinary. It's incredibly well made and it's informative and it's. Yes, it is. I don't know if entertaining is the right word. It is compelling.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I would say it's compelling. Yeah.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Ristos with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice. You'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com what if mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Ryder Strong]

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Ryder Strong]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

[Ryder Strong]

It's about engineering consciousness.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is wild.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, Body Bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On June 11, 1998, a deputy from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department went missing. It's an all out manhunt for John Awjay. Every search and rescue team in LA county has been called in to help.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Within days, tips started flooding into the sheriff's department.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The rumor around the drug scene was that a deputy was taken care of. Is this the story of a man who just got lost in the desert? Or of a cover up in the Inside the nation's largest sheriff's department.

[Ryder Strong]

A homicide captain saying, detective, do not find out if this guy's guilty or innocent. Who does that?

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Valley of Shadows a new series from Pushkin Industries about crime and corruption in California's high desert.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Do you have any advice for us while looking into this disappearance?

[Ryder Strong]

I wouldn't do it alone.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Listen to Valley of shadows on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk about your actual specific story. So you joined NXIVM in 2005. Yes. And it was presented as a personal and professional development company. So what were you looking for at that time in your life? Or what did you feel like you were missing? That that interested you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I mean, I think there was things that I was cognizant that I was looking for, and then there was things that I was not aware of. And even to this day, I kind of get new layers of, you know, the underpinnings of subconscious things that were driving me. But I think the main thing that I was consciously aware of is that I wasn't where I thought I should be as an actress. As I'm sure you know, who's an actress can relate to. At certain times, you're, like, looking at friends and going, well, they have this and I'm not there and I should be there. And. But at the same time, I was. Even though technically I was a working actor at the time, I wasn't feeling fulfilled and, and, and saw friends booking work and being way more successful than me, and they weren't fulfilled.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

This is the funny thing, I think, that a lot of people don't get about entertainment that sometimes, like, it's such a fickle business and it's so difficult and it's very rare that we get all the things meaning, like, you get a job that pays you well, that is fulfill creatively, and then you get into this weird place of it's always competitive because it's so fickle. Like, it's a hard.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Life that I.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Feel like is we're always going, like, me, is it me? What could I be doing? Like, why am I not getting X.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Y and Z 100%? All of that strife and then inner, inner turmoil mixed with like, I was 26, turning 27. So that's a kind of a pivotal age, looking for my purpose, wondering if acting was the purpose. And, and also community. Like, I felt like the, the acting community in Vancouver. While it has definitely was very positive in some ways, I also was catty and didn't really feel like that, you know, those were my people looking for, you know, looking for people belonging. And then I think emotionally things I wasn't aware of at the time was how much that that belonging desire was rooted in, like, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't popular growing up. I didn't have a lot of close friends in high school. So there was sort of like that layer and then also layers of that, I think are very common of like, wanting to feel special and feel valuable. And, you know, that was something that was very much dangled and given to me to keep me going as after I. After I got involved. But I think, like, all of those things were a perfect storm. And it's actually something that we. We talk about now when we have people on a little bit culty is figuring out what was going on for you when you joined emotionally, physically, what we call situational vulnerabilities. Like, a lot of people join when they're at a crossroads, new. New town, new career, post divorce, and they're feeling lonely or looking for answers or looking for structure. Oh, that was something I didn't. I missed. I was raised, like, culturally Jewish atheist, celebrating Christmas, you know, like, so it was.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

It was open to everything.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, a bit of a hodgepodge. Like, lit the candles for on the Menorah, had a Christmas tree, had a Buddha in my bedside table. Like, I had a lot of things. And so I think that I lacked, like, an internal structure of, you know, that a lot of people have when they grow up in a religious context. I didn't have that in it, but.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

I kind of wanted singular grounding. Like a. Yeah, real, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? Like a post. A real.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, you're like a guidebook on how to live, you know, like that. And I really do feel like Nexium offered me that. And I was like, oh, this is. This is it. This is everything. The secrets to life. And I was. I didn't. I wasn't aware that I was looking for that, but I feel like when it was given to me, I was like, relieved.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yeah, I think that every. Anyone can identify with that feeling of. I was just my. In talking to my producers before we started, I thought about this moment for myself because, you know, I think everybody does need to think about, is it possible? Like, could I. How. Because you don't walk into this place going, I can't wait to join a cult. Like, I'm looking for a cult. Are you guys open? You know, it's not what people are doing. And I remember I was maybe 20 in New York City, had been going in for this play at Lincoln Center. Very big deal for me. And I like six or seven weeks of auditions, this very prominent theater director, Robert Falls. It was an Eric Boghossian play. I was like, ecstatic. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm getting this job. You know, like, I'm getting this job. It's going to be the first really big thing I do. I go in for the final callback, and I leave Lincoln center. And immediately they tell me my agent calls, is like, you didn't get the job? I. I was beside myself, right? And I'm there. I am. I'm, like, crying in the street. I get on the subway to go back downtown to my apartment, and this lovely woman walks up to me. I was, I think, 20, 19, 20. And she was probably 30. And she was just like, are you okay? And I said, I'm not. And I just, like, I was so taken aback that she was so kind, and I kept crying. And I said, you know, I'm. I'm okay. I'm just. I'm just really frustrated, you know? And she put her hand on me and said, I. You know, I'd love to help you. I'd love to have you come. Come join us. We've got a great community. And she gives me a Scientology flyer. And I thankfully knew someone who had gotten wrapped in Scientology already. And I, like, looked at her, and I was like, sister, like, that's not gonna help me. You know, And. But if I hadn't known. If I hadn't actually known someone who already had sort of been, you know, tantalized by that organization, I don't. I think I would have just been like, I'd love to have a coffee, you know, like, yeah, I'd love to talk with you, because I'm broken right now, you know?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. That's such a great example of a situational vulnerability. Right place, right time. And for most people, they. They're not. They might brush up against somebody like that, like a random recruiter, but they're not in a moment of brokenness, right? Or the other way around. They're in a moment of brokenness, and they don't cross paths with the recruiter. But for everybody else, it's just that magic perfect storm. Perfect storm.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

So let's talk about the main characters here again, because I know who this is, but maybe some people don't. The leader, who's Keith Ranieri, and he's portrayed as being charismatic and very persuasive and clearly manipulative. I've heard many women describe him, and I. I correct me, I think you as well, when you first met him, that, you know, like, he was a little creepy or a little weird. And, you know, so what. What was your first experience with him? And if it was that, how did you kind of brush that? Instinct aside.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I believe it was at volleyball and actually There's a little clip of it, I think, in the vow where we're. We're talking at volleyball. I believe that was the first time. So it'd been in 2000, summer of 2005. And I had a great respect for him because of all the growth I thought I was achieving in Nexium. So I had him on a bit of a pedestal. But when I met him, I mean, he's so. He's very short. Yeah, right. He's like five. Like, maybe an inch or two taller than me. I'm five four. He's kind of stocky, and he was, you know, wearing knee pads and that at that time. It was before his grand makeover, and he was very straggly. He would look. Had a bit of a, like, Jesus vibe.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, that changed.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

He looked like a little mushroom. That's what I thought.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Mushroom. Yes. Yes. I like that. Nippy calls him. My husband calls him a dirty laundry bag. But that's.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

That's better. That's way better.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's his mushroom in a dirty laundry bag. I don't know, but I, I, you know, I remember thinking, like, he just seemed like a normal, nerdy, schlubby dude is what I thought. And in fact, later, as I would come to watch him do many forums and speaking, Nancy would always introduce him. And then she would come on stage afterwards and be like, you know, who's seeing Vanguard for the first time? And some, because there was these new people, right? Like, and they'd raise their hands and. And he. She would ask them to say Them to say what they thought. And somebody would always say, like, yeah, he just seems so, like, normal, I guess.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

And.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And then she would say, isn't that amazing that he's able to bring himself to our level, so he's approachable and, like, get into rapport with us. Like, that's a. You know, what a. What a twist.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

What a twist. But. So this is my question. Like, at what point do you see, okay, they're talking about this man as if he is a deity, as if he is a God in some way. And that immediately sounds like something is out of sorts here. Like, when. When did he. Sort of. So I've also read that people that the five day is Maybe you can. Like, that's like, sort of the. One of the first things people do. Or you can write. It's like a seminar for five days. And I heard or read several people saying, you know, wait until the third day, and then something really changes. And to me, that says, just wait until you let yourself be a little bit brainwashed and then you'll get it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, absolutely. And that was said to me in my first few days. I was very resistant and had so many red flags, but, A, I couldn't get my money back. B, I wanted. Part of me wanted to please Mark and work with Mark. And, you know, Mark was my point. He was my point person. I didn't know anybody else in the training other than my boyfriend at the time. And he. I was on the phone with him and he's like, I know it's weird. I thought it was weird, too. Just, you know, stick. Stick with it. Third day. So, A, I'm open to that. The third day is going to be mind blowing. Mind blowing. But I also didn't know that you can basically replace people's, you know, fundamental belief system if they're open in like two or three days. I didn't know this at the time. I know anything about indoctrination or experts call it mind control, brainwashing, whatever you want to call it. I think my big first shift was on the third day. It is set. The five day was set up for that to. To, like, have foundational concepts. Monday, Monday, Tuesday, first and second day. And then the middle day was if, you know, if people were open and they were doing the process, they would have some big ahas about their life. But by day five, I was like, this is amazing. I want all my friends to do it. I mean, I was. I was a zealot. By day five, I was completely recruited. Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I had no doubts. I had no doubts, like, at that point, other than, like, you know, the sashes were a bit tacky. I didn't like the power suits. Nancy's eyebrows were weird. Like, there's things I didn't like.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Well, it's really funny how we can. Or one can take all these things again. Like, it feels like this systematic breaking down of your instincts. Right. Rather, it's like telling you their instincts are wrong. Like, you can see all these things that you find a little bit strange or not important or even oppressive, but you sort of, well, just like, let it go by.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, you let it go by. And part of it is that there's this element of, like, you know, if you go to someone's house and they say, we take off our shoes here, and you're wearing, like, boots that go with your outfit, you're like, oh, that's annoying. But, like, it's their house, so you take off their shoes.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Oh, My God, that's such a good example.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So that's so much of what the first few days were like. And they brilliantly were very clear that, you know, we're here to get a, our money's worth, we're here to grow, we're here to look at our stuff. You know, let's, you might as well. And it's totally normal. Like in therapy, if, if you're looking at yourself, it's uncomfortable and you're going to feel uncomfortable. So when you feel uncomfortable, when we just, we're just talking about things, we're just putting this piece of fabric around your neck, if you can't talk about that, then like, you know, clearly there's something internally going on. We're going to look at it. If you leave, we'll never look at it. And so if you're uncomfortable, we ask you to sit and work through it and figure out what it is. And by the way, if you're uncomfortable with the sashes, you're probably have some suppression, suppressive issues. You don't like to pay tribute for what people have built before you. You might be a bit envious. And those are things we need to work through. So then you learn to kind of like, well, I'm, I don't want to be that. So sashes are fine, right? Things like that. Right?

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yeah, like questioning all of your thought, which again is this. It's such a manipulation, like a bastardization of being self questioning and self reflective, you know, which are great qualities to have. And this is just such a manipulation of it.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

What if mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Ryder Strong]

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you hypnotically someone into sleeping with you?

[Ryder Strong]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Nlp, AKA Neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

[Ryder Strong]

It's about engineering consciousness.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is wild.

[Mind Games Podcast Co-host]

Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, Body Bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On June 11, 1998, a deputy from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department went missing. It's an all out manhunt for John Ajay. Every search and rescue team in LA county has been called in to help.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Within days, tips started flooding into the sheriff's department.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The rumor around the drug scene was that a deputy was taken care of. Is this the story of a man who just got lost in the desert? Or of a cover up inside the nation's largest sheriff's department?

[Ryder Strong]

A homicide captain saying, detective, do not find out if this guy's guilty or innocent. Who does that?

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Valley of Shadows, a new series from Pushkin Industries about crime and corruption in California's high desert.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Do you have any advice for us while looking into this disappearance?

[Ryder Strong]

I wouldn't do it alone.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Listen to Valley of shadows on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so you're going along with all of this and you became very successful in this organization in terms of meaning you were, you climbed up the ladder and you were financially successful and brought other people into this. So what did you know, because so much of what everyone says is like, oh, you know, we were doing all these great things for everyone and everyone was so successful. But what did that really look like? Because you had, were you, did you decide I don't want to be an actress anymore. Were you still pursuing other things in your life and was this, what did the success quote unquote look like at that time? At the, at the height for you of positivity?

[Sarah Edmondson]

There was different stages. My first few years, my first four years, I actually wasn't making money. I was just taking classes and I saw results very quickly in my acting. I was still acting for the first while I got an independent film that ended up interesting.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So that was really cool because I always wanted to go to Toronto Film International Film Festival. Those who don't know who TIFF is or is who, who did. Sorry.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yeah. Those who don't, it's a great festival. It's a very well respected international festival.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And that was super exciting. But I, I actually one of the first things I, I did with the tools, I say that in air quotes if anyone's not watching because it's, that's just what we called it is, is work on my audition derms. Because that was something that I felt very limited by. I got very out of body and not present when I auditioned and I couldn't control it and that was the first thing I worked on and I got results and so I was working, booking more. But then I hit a point after about four or five years when I did start to make money and it was starting to be in conflict with my auditions and doing movies and I had a small recurring role and when Calls the Heart and it was like in conflict with all these other projects I was doing with Nexium. And I kind of feel like I had to make a decision. But at the same time it was never told to me like you have to quit acting. It was more just like I knew that this was important to me and that I couldn't really do both. And also, you know, what's more important? Helping people in. Out in the world and their life and you know, changing the world one person at a time and perhaps creating to world creating world peace or a Hallmark movie, you know, so I totally get that quandary. Right?

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So if, I mean if it was what it was supposed to be, then I feel like I made the right decision and it was. But it was a lie. So that was a bad decision. But at the time I felt very clear that this was more important and my acting start to go off to the wayside. So to answer your. To your question though, I was kind of the poster child I think because I had such a big network in Vancouver and I brought so many people in and they in turn brought so many people in and I was in charge of the center. I now was making money and didn't feel like I didn't have the same pull towards acting because I was my, my, my purpose cup was feeling. Yes. Fulfilled.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In terms of success. Like I sold my Honda Civic and bought a brand new Mini Cooper convertible and I was like I have a new car. I was able to purchase my first home. Like there was material financial success that was proof and also like I was happier. I would. I thought I was happier, I thought I was happier.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

But right. Because you're actually feeling productive, like you've created something, you've done something on your own, you have agency over certain things in your life. And yes. So at that. At what point did dos. So for people who don't know dos is it's essentially it translates into dominance over your slave or master over slave women. Is that right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nobody really knows.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Nobody knows. But it's described as a secret sisterhood.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. But I just had a thought before we get into that when you were asking about what success looked like, I also have to just say that it was at the peak, like peak nexium before things got weird which was like sort of the last four years, the middle four years. I was there for 12. You know there was also like we were, you know we were. Had opened a center in la. We were down in Las Feliz and like Lindsay Loham former home we were. I was going on a private jet to Alaska. It was glamorous and I was helping people. Like we legitimately felt like we were helping people and I still do to this day believe that the five day training if it was taught by people who had good intentions like Keith and Nancy weren't in the room could be transformative for people if they were wanting to. To look at their lives and have some, you know, dig into their psyche and look at things that they could take more responsibility for and like you said, feel more autonomous and have better communication. Like all those things were great. It was like jam packed therapy. That's great in and of itself is great but in there is also tools for future abuse. Just have to make this caveat if people were to continue.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right, right. And there are a lot of org. I mean I think of there is something Called the Forum that was, you know, landmark for, like, all of those. Those things that, you know, they. There are elements that can be very useful and very helpful, but then the, like leaning on those things and thinking you can't function without them, and then turning, like it becomes a little bit of a shady area until it completely.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Spirals.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And the Landmark Forum, which I know is huge in la, was always our competitor there because it's like landmark. And I was like, no, that's like the McDonald's of personal growth. And we're the gourmet food of personal growth. Just so you know.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

We have private jets.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, we have private jets. We're very fancy, but it's the same thing. And we've since done lots of deep dives on a little bit culty. It's landmark form is like Nexium light and it's all the same stuff. And like, just as an example. So people, this is like a red flag teaching moment. You know, teaching people, for example, like personal responsibility. That same data. The Forum did it. Yes. That's great. Something happens in your life instead of victimizing yourself, going, okay, what's my part in this? Like, what? What did I not know that I know now? What would I do differently? That's a huge pivotal perception shift. If somebody doesn't have that great. Now if they continue and they make. One of the things I always say now is like, yeah, go do that. Take the tools, put them in your life. Don't make the tools your life. Don't dedicate yourself fully. Which is my mistake. Like, if I think if I just done a little bit of Nexium and then gone back to acting, I mean, who knows where I'd be now? I have no idea. I can't think about that.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

I'll be depressed in 2017. Yes, you're invited into this sisterhood by Lawrence Salzman, who is not only your bridesmaid, she was a very dear friend. Nancy, who is the co head with Keith, it's her daughter, so you obviously respect her and love her and tell me about that, how that happened.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And yeah, I mean that. That part of the story is so complicated and complex. And one of the reasons why I wrote Scarred is so that it would be in order even to this day. I like, I. Where there's a civil case and they were asking me questions. I'm like, I don't even remember. I had to go back to the book and say, like, oh, no, this happened. And then this happened. And then this happened. And then this happened. Because there's a lot of steps regarding blackmail. They called it collateral gathering. You know, this is.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

I want to talk about the collateral. I want to talk about the collateral. Because I also heard Keith out of his. I. I just love also that he's such an egomaniac like, that he wanted himself recorded all the time. Like, thank goodness there is tape of him saying that commitment has to be collateralized. That statement in and of itself is totally insane in my opinion. Because that means that. That your own word doesn't mean anything. Like it's not enough or your commitment to yourself or your belief in yourself is not enough. So talk to us about the collateral.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And DOs specifically and collateralization. It's like when you just said what Keith said. I know it's insane, but it's also totally. That would have been totally normal because we'd been doing collateral related things for at least three to four years before DOS was even introduced. So when people hear about DOS and how it's explained, they'd be like, well, why would you do that? Like, that's so dumb. But everything that was a part of it was kind of already in the framework of what we believed. And also. So, oh man, this is complicated. But basically I. She invited me to join a secret society, but before she even told me what it was, I had to give her collateral to make. To back up my word that I would never speak about it. So it was. It'd be secret.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

And you didn't think that that was extreme or weird?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, it was extreme, but it wasn't weird. I guess I was like, nobody had ever done anything like that with me. And also, I guess part of it for me is that all the stuff that had. Everything had become a bit more amped up. Collateral. People were doing penance, which is a religious thing, which I was. I wasn't raised religious, so I didn't. I didn't know that that's something that people did like in real life in their religion. Like, I'm going to do a penance for the sin or whatever.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

So it's very Catholic. I was raised Catholic.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Very Catholic, yeah. So people were doing things like, oh, I said I wasn't gonna eat chocolate and I did. And so now I'm gonna plank in the snow at 3:00am for 10 minutes, like, and. Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

It's amazing that this is all Keith driven, right. That he's telling people. And then via. Via. I'm sure the, the women then in turn told one another. But I, I read something where he said there was a woman that was harming herself, engaging in self harm. And she came to him and he said, you know, you what, what's what commitment. Do you have to stop doing this? And she, you know, said that she was going to. To stop or something. And he said, well, that, that commitment isn't sufficiently important enough, so we're gonna have to do something more. And then it's like weight control and which is the whole. I mean, as a former anorexic, I. This is like red flags up the yin yang for me. Especially if a man is telling you what's your weight? How are you? You know, sorry I'm stepping on you because I'm like, I can't get. I can't just like, I can't. I can't believe some of this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's terrible. It's terrible. And just a quick sidebar. Like, I definitely, I think in retrospect was like orthorexic at certain times, you know, and was obsessed. But I never counted calories and I never barfed and I. And I. But every time I went to Albany, everyone was so focused on being thin and like, you know, weighing their food or doing different diets. And I always thought that was weird. I had no idea Keith was instructing them.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Because you, obviously, you're. You. You can't think properly when you are deprived of nutrition. So that's a part of it, right? Like you can't think and then it becomes obsessive about any particular thing, whether it's raise weighing the food or what you are, aren't eating, like all of those things.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It just.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

It's a mind control and it dominates everything. And then it's just easier for you to be impressionable, you know?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Wanna. Want to please him. So what was the. So you are invited to join this by Lauren and you have to give her collateral. What is the collateral that you had to give her?

[Sarah Edmondson]

The first collateral I gave her was written confession about like, things that I wouldn't want the public to know. Like things I'd done in my 20s. And I wrote it down and then she took a picture and sent it to someone and told me it wasn't bad enough. Wasn't like, like detrimental enough. So I had. And I was like, well, I have a good girl. I have a pretty clean record other than those few things that maybe someone want my parents to know kind of thing. Although my. My mom pretty much knows everything in my life anyway. And so I had to embellish it and so I wrote something worse with lies. And she doesn't even have to be true. It's just something that I'm gonna hold so that you'll know that you'll never speak of. I know. So, yeah, I know. And I felt very uncomfortable, and I told her that, and she said, that's perfect.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

That's the point.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right? Yeah. You want to feel uncomfortable to make sure that you would never, you know, break your word.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. And. And then she told me about it, and there was all these. There's all these steps, and I can't recall the order she told me, but it was like, she definitely set it up in a way that there was elements of it that were exciting. It was a badass boot camp for women. It was going to be a group of women, and we're gonna, you know, work on our goals and a much more higher level of accountability and checking in than we ever have with Nexium. And it's just women, women only. And some people are next to, some are not. It's not, like, tied to it at all. And it's like, you know, the men have Freemasons, and we're. We have this. And, like, it's international and it's super amazing and it's exciting. And it's a sorority, and I've never been in a sorority, and I, like, there was. That element was kind of fun for me.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Sure. And then it feeds. Like, you're. You're like having an even more intimate community, which is what you wanted, what we all want in some capacity. So it's like a deeper belief that it's going to bring you deeper into what you want to do and you become more powerful and all that stuff.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And in retrospect, I also think that Keith knew that I was slipping away because I had. You know, I had had at this point. I'd gotten married to Nippy, who I think was a huge threat to Keith. And for those who don't know, he's like, my husband picked college in football. He was the quarterback. He's very handsome. He's built. He's funny. He's a history major. He's like an incredible.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

All the things that Keith is Not.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not. Yes, exactly. And I. I was married to him, and we had a baby, and. And those things were more important and were slowly pulling me away.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Okay, so we are really just starting to scratch the surface here in this conversation. So Sarah will be back with us for our next episode.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Mind Games Podcast Host]

What if Mind Control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Ryder Strong]

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Ryder Strong]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious mind games.

[Mind Games Podcast Host]

A new podcast Exploring nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic Programming. Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, Body Bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network. I open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Ryder Strong]

This is Ryder Strong and I have a new podcast called the red weather. In 1995 my neighbor Anna Trainor disappeared from a commune. It was nature, trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. Back then I lied to everybody.

[Interviewer (possibly Elisa Donovan)]

Live happy at this case for 30 years.

[Ryder Strong]

I'm going back to my hometown to uncover the truth. Listen to the Red Weather Starting on January 28th at the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.