← Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
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- [00:00]
Liz Garbus
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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Guaranteed Human support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com this is Bowen Yang.
- [01:06]
Bowen Yang
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- [02:04]
Liz Garbus
Hey, this is US Olympic gold medalist.
- [02:06]
Bowen Yang
Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic.
- [02:08]
Liz Garbus
Gold medalist Hunter Woodhull. As athletes, our lives are about having a clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust. So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [02:22]
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Learn more at pennymac.com pennymac loan services llc/housing lender nmls id 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply. Do you want to find a stress free way to buy your next car? Start at CarMax and shop your way. If you want to browse with confidence, get pre qualified online with no impact on your credit score and shop cars within your budget. From luxury cars to family rides, CarMax has options for almost every price range, including more than 25,000 cars priced under $25,000. So hey, want to get started? Just head to CarMax.com for details and get free pre qualified today. Want to drive CarMax? Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer.
- [03:16]
Cindy Crawford
Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone.
- [03:22]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Welcome back to Killer Thriller. We're picking up my conversation with Elizabeth Rome, digging into two cases where abuse and control went unchecked for for years inside a college campus and inside a family home. All right, let's talk about Devil on campus now. Devil on campus, the Larry Ray story. Quickly. For those of you who don't know, Larry Ray infamously moved in with his daughter on the campus of her college and became a cult like leader of her group of friends. It is incredibly disturbing. I can't express how disturbing it is. He forced some of them into prostitution for his own financial financial benefit amongst a host of other things. And this, this movie also is so good. And this, it gets into, you know, cult like behavior, abuse, all kinds of things. But first I just want to start with this happened at Sarah Lawrence. And you went to Sarah Lawrence, right?
- [04:25]
Liz Garbus
Yeah. So this hit very close to home. No, it did. It did. My stepmother had said to me, did I read the article that had just come called the Lost Children of Sarah Lawrence in the cut? And I said, nope. And she sent it to me. And I thought, and no judgment necessarily of my alma mater, but my mother went there as well. I've served on the board of Sarah Lawrence when I was on Law and Order. I love this school so much. How in the world could they have allowed this to happen? I am a mother of a teenager. I cannot imagine that, I mean, no checks and balances that this father who had just been released from prison would be allowed to bunk out in this dorm. Sort of like, and it's, hey, no big deal. Parents can visit their children. I mean, I was like outraged.
- [05:16]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh my God.
- [05:17]
Liz Garbus
And so I reached out to my dear friend Dan Abrams, who has Law and Crime, which is a media platform for crime stories and crime reporting. And I said, you know, this Larry Ray trial, I need to get in there. I need to get a screenwriter in there. At the time, I was talking to then head of Lifetime, Tanya Lopez, who had been a great mentor for me, and I said, can we tell this story? And of course the answer was yes, but of course it has to be adjudicated. So then again, we're always waiting for trials to come to end, to end, and to then move forward in narrative. So we did that. And in the meantime, we did a podcast on Wondery called Devil in the Dorm, or I can't remember, the movie's called Devil on Campus. And the podcast is called Devil in the Dorm. And that was the whole point of view of the podcast, which was to say, I went to school here. Like, what the fuck?
- [06:11]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
And I could not believe it. I remember reading about it and saying, this is. I don't understand that. Like, I don't understand how this is possible. Like, I couldn't get past the fact that the first moment, which is, wait, he moved into her dorm room. I don't even understand how that was allowed.
- [06:30]
Liz Garbus
So that was the first major issue, is this would never have happened had the school shut it down immediately. And maybe it would have happened, but at the end of the day, shame on them. And then we did the podcast. I think the podcast really unpacked Larry Ray's history. He was a professional criminal. He was the most corrupt person. So in other words, you've now allowed this human being to bunk out with formative minds, young people who are all lost and all searching. I mean, we're all lost in searching. But, you know, when you're a teenager and you're in college, you're really seeking a sense of self. You're looking for leadership. You're looking for an identity, frankly. And that's what he did. He came in with this program that he'd created and he started to mind meld them. By the end of the year, their sophomore year, he said, come move into my apartment in Manhattan. And they did. And then everything went really sideways.
- [07:33]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right, right.
- [07:34]
Liz Garbus
And he was found guilty on 16 counts of criminal activity, including extortion and prostitution. Good, good.
- [07:42]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Not still not enough.
- [07:44]
Liz Garbus
Throw away the key. I mean, so not to say I'm a little afraid when all these people come out of prison.
- [07:51]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right, right.
- [07:53]
Liz Garbus
No, we do have a brand after all. Yeah. Target on your back.
- [07:58]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
So how important was it to show you how ordinary and non threatening he was at first, because he comes from the place of, as you said, sort of help instead of violent. And I think people often think, oh, it's some sort of strong violence immediately, and then their minds get warped. It's really from the place of help that he comes and is able to.
- [08:23]
Liz Garbus
Yeah, I mean, you're like, this guy is so unattractive. I mean, first of all, how is he getting these young women to be even enamored with him at all and then to end up in a relationship with the two of them? And these are brilliant young people who are at Sarah Lawrence and Columbia and, you know, really potentially gonna do great things with their life. Like. So anyway, he had to be charismatic. And he was charismatic. And that's what people said. You know, he was the. Yes, he could get it done. You know, he was a Pied Piper. And that was why I felt like, you know, Billy Zane is one of the most charming, brilliant, multi hyphenate artists. He's sexy, he's intelligent, he's a director. I thought he's really. He could really get underneath this and manipulate these kids.
- [09:14]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yep. He's terrific in it. And I love.
- [09:16]
Liz Garbus
He's terrific.
- [09:16]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
There's a moment where. Exemplifies exactly that. His belly is kind of hanging over his undershorts and he's telling them about how to work out. Let's talk about. Yeah, like how to work out. You need a firm middle or something. And they're all, you know, they're. They're like doing planks on the ground. It's just like that. That is it like that is that person.
- [09:38]
Liz Garbus
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And Billie couldn't have been a better partner to explore what, like, coercive people do that want to manipulate you and take your power away. And, you know, anyway, it's a pretty horrible tale.
- [09:56]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
So I read something where one of the survivors said that Ray took. You say he took away everything that made me me. That is like a very strong statement. So, I mean, how do you even begin to translate that on screen? How do you. That feels like a big responsibility.
- [10:17]
Liz Garbus
I think that, you know, first the actors have to be willing to go there. And then, you know, in the breaking down of somebody's sense of self and self worth, you know, you're really getting to play in a. In an. In an area in our psyche that is so fragile and that we have to protect. I say this to my son all the time. I'm like, be careful who you spend time with. You will become like them. You know, protect your peace. Right. All the Things we say as parents. But it is so important to not give your power away or to let somebody degrade you because as they degrade you, you begin to lose. Exactly that quote. Like he took away every part of myself. Now you're only swimming in shame. And you're going to start to recede from any observation of other people because you're so ashamed. And then it gets darker and darker and darker as you begin to kind of fall into a pattern, you know, of terrible behavior. I mean, that's really what happened, right. You know, once she started to particularly be prostituted, her sense of self was so eroded and she was so ashamed and she'd gotten into a cycle that was so shameful that she then totally pulled away from her parents. In the meantime, her parents were begging her to allow them to save her, protect her, and to remove her from that relationship. Like actually, I played Claudia's mom in the movie and one of my favorite scenes is when he comes to my house and she and he are sitting there and I physically attacked him and she left with him.
- [11:58]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right.
- [12:00]
Liz Garbus
But that's like a self worth issue because she couldn't deal with us saving her.
- [12:05]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right? She couldn't. Right, right. That as a mother, I have a 13 year old daughter and you know, these years, 13, 14, 15, they're so particularly vulnerable and really trying to figure out who they are. And I see my daughter, you know, taking on other people's behaviors. Now we're talking about very simple sort of, you know, basic things. But I, I'm always trying to say to her, you have to remember who you are because this is a kid who was like her own person all the time. Always. Right. Always a little bit, you know, some weird outfits, always was interested in interesting things and did. And I see this kind of like narrowing of her vision and it's, it really is about self worth and confidence and all those things. And if we don't develop them and really value a sense of self, it's so easy to fall into these, you know, and it's hard.
- [13:03]
Liz Garbus
Like how do you actually parent people? You can't control them. I mean, you can't demand it, you can't force them into having a good relationship with themselves. But I don't know, maybe if we are people who want to manifest good experiences in our lives and we think positive thoughts and our thoughts become things and so forth, and we're teaching our children how to protect our thoughts and our individuality, I try to at least say to Anthony to, you know, really be careful who he spends time with, because you will become like the people you spend time with. And I have, in my own life, spent time with people who've elevated me, and I've spent time with people who've brought me to the gutter.
- [13:48]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
So true. It's so true.
- [13:50]
Liz Garbus
So you know, that's very true.
- [13:54]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Were you. Were you shocked by how long this went on? Like, how long some. Some of these people up, I read it till 10 years later, they were still under, like, for. For that long of a period of time. Like. Does that surprise you?
- [14:09]
Liz Garbus
I think what it did is it taught me how easily we can lose ourselves and to go back to protecting ourselves. Not from others or from intimacy or from even trusting, making new relationships, but just really listening to your spidey senses. Right. The minute you think that something is not correct and it is. Does not feel right, it is not right.
- [14:31]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yep.
- [14:32]
Liz Garbus
And because the further you go in to that kind of bad behavior, the harder it is to get out because you begin to lose contact with other people, you begin to lose contact with your family, and you begin to lose contact with your inner voice, and you're doing things you feel terribly ashamed of. So then you, like you said, you begin to lose your sense of self. And that's how people get stuck. Abusive relationships of any sort of abuse.
- [14:58]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That'S kind of the core. One of the core values of the cult, of how you get there. Like the sleep deprivation. The more sleep deprived you are, the more you can't think straight, the more susceptible you are to things. And it's a slippery slope. So you worked with legal analyst Dan Abrams to get access to Ray's trial transcripts, which is incredible. Tell me about that. I mean, it must have been very, very useful.
- [15:24]
Liz Garbus
Absolutely. Because what we did is, again, we were waiting for the trial for years. It kept getting postponed because he kept. He kept claiming he had medical issues. And that's oftentimes something that a criminal, an accused person, I should say, pulls that card frequently. And that's why it takes sometimes years to actually get the trial going. But once it was going, we actually were able to get in there with a court reporter. So we were getting access to it minute by minute. And our screenwriter went there for a couple of days as well.
- [15:56]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh, wow.
- [15:57]
Liz Garbus
So we were writing the movie in real time as it was unfolding.
- [16:02]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Wow.
- [16:02]
Liz Garbus
So that by the time it was adjudicated, whichever way it went, we would have ended up making amendments. But we were writing the actual film.
- [16:10]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh, my gosh.
- [16:11]
Liz Garbus
As it was happening.
- [16:12]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That's Incredible. I didn't realize that.
- [16:14]
Liz Garbus
And that's, in a weird way, what we were doing with the dating app killer, too. We were really on top of that one for two years as we watched to see what ended up happening in that trial and what Anthony Robinson was gonna be found guilty of, which would have impacted the whole ending of the movie. Sure.
- [16:30]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
I mean, this is, again, why these. Your movies feel very deep and nuanced and not sensationalized. It's, you know, research and proper actual backdrop of what's happening. So did you. So when this is something that I was thinking and reading all of this, like, where. All along the journey, like, where were the grownups? Where were the adults? Where was. Where were these people's parents? Aside from Claudia, whom even, you know, we only see her part of the time. So did you wonder that, too? Like, where. What about the other parents? Where were they?
- [17:10]
Liz Garbus
They were around. All the parents were trying to get their kids. These were. These were kids who were loved. You know, the Santos siblings that were involved. You know, again, he was. He was extorting money from them by claiming that they had damaged his property. And they're going hand out to their parents, some with wealthy parents, some with not wealthy parents, and asking for money. I mean, they all just got in so deep with this guy. And what do parents do when their child is in trouble? They want to take care of them. Oh, did our. Did our child do this thing? And then they're helping their child out that first time, but then there's a second time and a third time, and then it's looking like a racket. So then there's conflict within the family. But these families, you know, to my knowledge, were very much trying to get their kids out of this relationship. Right.
- [17:56]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Did working on this change how you think about cult behavior?
- [18:03]
Liz Garbus
Absolutely. Actually, last year, we just sold a series to NBC that was about coercive thought. It's not going to move forward. But what's interesting is that really birthed the whole idea that we need, you know, we need medical professionals that help sort of unscramble people's minds. Once somebody gets in there and kind of dismantles you and takes you apart, you need to be put back together, and you need help, and you need experts to help you with that. And I think that's a very interesting way to look at victims, to look at crimes, and to, you know, to look at healing.
- [18:40]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yes. I talked with Sarah Edmondson, who was in the NXIVM cult, and I'm just blown away by her, how she has really, really does the work continually and continues to do it and to try to help other people. And it's. Because it's not a simple exit.
- [19:02]
Liz Garbus
No. And you're not an idiot or not a good evolved person because you got manipulated by a monster who just targeted you. Right, Right. Back to the dating app killer.
- [19:16]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yes.
- [19:17]
Liz Garbus
Monica White was a target and he was always looking for these that seemed particularly lonely and were articulating their need for love. And you know, he was looking for these victims too.
- [19:31]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right. So do you think that's the primary thing they like why fall? Smart people get pulled into things like this, that it's loneliness, like a lack of love, that.
- [19:42]
Liz Garbus
And also these master manipulators, they know exactly how to get into your head, tell you what you want to hear, give you what you want to get. They're love bombers. I mean, they're not punching you in the face the second they see you. They're manipulating you into the relationship probably over a period of time. And then once they've got you, then they break you down and then they separate you from your people.
- [20:08]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right. I just recently saw video just in preparing for this after watching the movie, real video that they had of him physically. And it's very. In the film, it's done very well and it's very similar. But how arresting that is because you see the first, you know, the love bombing first and then how it turns to that violence and then how confusing that is to the mind. Right. The person who's experiencing it. And it's just heartbreaking to me.
- [20:41]
Liz Garbus
Right, right. Yeah. There's a scene in the movie where he takes a hammer to one of the kids and to threaten them. And I just remember the heartbreak in that actor's eyes because he was just trying to please him. But it turned really fast and then it becomes an act of violence and there's so much disappointment and so much hurt in this person, in this actor, but in the way they portrayed it that I can see, I hope you know, and the audience can see, you know, then even that begins to break down your sense of self because you've trusted this person and now they're degrading you and you feel, what have I done wrong? And then you begin to sort of doubt yourself.
- [21:22]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right. The confusion.
- [21:23]
Liz Garbus
Right. You get so confused and. And that begins to break down your self esteem too.
- [21:38]
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- [22:39]
Bowen Yang
Is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein Shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite flavor@premierprotein.com that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.
- [23:37]
Liz Garbus
Hey, this is US Olympic Gold medalist.
- [23:39]
Bowen Yang
Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic.
- [23:42]
Liz Garbus
Gold medalist Hunter Woodhull. As athletes, our lives are about having a clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust. So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [23:56]
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- [24:07]
Cindy Crawford
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- [25:13]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Was there a particular moment that really in the case like in, in, in that really just major stomach drop that made you say I can't believe this is really happening?
- [25:26]
Liz Garbus
I think it was really this, that scene and also when he took all the kids out to North Carolina and he had them doing manual labor on his land and had the, I mean it was like the summer camp of Larry Ray was like a war camp and it was some of them even sleeping outside because. And he would say they want to or he's punishing them or you know, and also there, you know, his daughter was. These were some of her friends. And then he's kind of putting his daughter up on a pedestal. Like the whole situation in North Carolina was like, it's so disturbing to me.
- [26:02]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
So was the daughter in North Carolina? She was there with them there.
- [26:05]
Liz Garbus
She had gone there for a period of time but like they were there for the whole time.
- [26:11]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Is she where. Do you know where the daughter is today? What her?
- [26:16]
Liz Garbus
She's always kind of, I think stood by him. I don't really know. Yeah.
- [26:20]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh boy. What do you think that or what do you hope that parents and colleges take away from this one?
- [26:28]
Liz Garbus
Well, I, you know, obviously I think keep communicating with your kids. Try not to judge them so that they don't shut the door on you. You know, that's what I really try to do with Anthony. I want to talk to him about everything. So he includes. Even recently I was saying to him I had an opinion about something and he was like, stop. And I was like, you know what? I am gonna stop.
- [26:48]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yeah.
- [26:49]
Liz Garbus
I said, you know, you're gonna have to make your decisions. You're gonna figure it out. I trust you. You're gonna make it work. I needed to stop micromanaging and evolve with him as he's evolving. So as he goes to college or becomes a young adult, that he doesn't close the door to me. So there aren't secrets that I'm not a part of that I can't get in there a little bit and at least try to give him my best advice to just be in the conversation with him. Because it's, that's the thing I think, you know, you can really continue to do with your kids is just try to stay in their loop and maybe you need to do it a little bit. Like they need, they need it to be done.
- [27:23]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right. Right. That is, I, I mean, parenting is the hardest thing on earth, but that particular balance is really, it's really. I'm finding that challenging, you know, because.
- [27:35]
Liz Garbus
You want to be like, no, you can't do that.
- [27:36]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
No, you can't do that.
- [27:37]
Liz Garbus
And then immediately they're tuning you out. As they get older, they'll be doing things you don't know any.
- [27:42]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right. Oh, God, yeah.
- [27:45]
Liz Garbus
So at least trying to stay in the conversation and not, you know, being so judgmental.
- [27:49]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right, right. All right, now let's. This, let's get to one of the most unbelievable stories that I have ever seen on film. Girl in the Basement. It is inspired by true events. I mean, the story is. It's almost unbearable. The real crime happened in Austria and the location was switched to the United States. And the real crime was Elizabeth Fritzl. When she was 18, her father lured her into the basement, covered her mouth with an ether soaked cloth and locked her in, where she would stay imprisoned for 24 years. She would have seven children with her father, one of whom dies. Now, she survived 8,516 days in captivity with three of the children in the basement. How did you prepare yourself to tell the story? And I didn't realize this was your first directorial debut. I mean, it's a stunner. You did a phenomenal job with this movie, first of all. But so how did you prepare yourself to tell it? How did this come about?
- [29:01]
Liz Garbus
You know, I had been watching this Fritzel story. I just, I thought exactly like what you said. I've never seen or heard of or been reading about a crime that was worse. And I, you know, I'm not an ambulance chaser, even though these movies have their thing. But at that time, I was just a person who just happened to see a story in the news. And I thought, you. I can't. This is the darkest thing I've ever seen in my life. Then when it was in development, I thought, you know what? God works in mysterious ways. You know, this is. I'm going to do this for her. I'm going to tell this story. And I just really began to fold in the romance, Even though that wasn't entirely true. I wanted to bring in Hope and Stephanie Scott, who I actually just saw last night.
- [29:57]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
She plays the daughter. Oh, she's just a stunner. She's so good.
- [30:01]
Liz Garbus
And then we had auditioned Emma Myers, who hadn't yet done Wednesday. So I think in some ways I'm a beginning part of her, beginning of her career.
- [30:09]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That's who she was. From whence it wraps. I know this actress.
- [30:12]
Liz Garbus
Oh, yeah, she also was incredible. Everybody was incredible. Jolie Fisher, Judd Nelson, everybody, everybody. But I think it was about, you know, again, really finding the humanity in Stephanie's character in particular and making her a great mother and building the world down in the basement to, you know, to make you not be in horror, but to also be in it with her. Like, it just became a reality. It just became a horrible, horrible reality. And that's how she was able to sustain herself. Survival. You know, she survived and she did whatever she had to do to survive. And then she did it, even by being a good parent. And that's how they got out was because one of the children became ill. And she convinced him, finally, this monster of a father, she convinced him to take the child to the hospital. And when the child got there, they said, where is this mother? This child has not seen, obviously a medical physician. Where is this mother? And that is how she. And she was in the basement. She saw it on the news and she said, I'll go, I'll go. And then she went. And then she said, help.
- [31:26]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh, my gosh.
- [31:27]
Liz Garbus
And that's how it all came apart. And it just. I felt like, there's a woman, there's a girl that's life was stolen from her. And I'm going to tell this story for her.
- [31:37]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
For her.
- [31:38]
Liz Garbus
Yeah.
- [31:42]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
It'S really unbelievable. I mean, and the fact that, I mean, it being her own father, you really. Well, wait, there was something I was going to say where you're talking about her and actually Mothering, it really shows you the. The determination of the human spirit. Right. And how we all have a choice under any circumstances. She didn't just implode and, I don't know, just lay there and not like. It's kind of extraordinary, that desire to. To create a world for the children that is somehow magical, is somehow safe, is somehow okay amidst this just unspeakable violence.
- [32:27]
Liz Garbus
Well, and in the real story, it's. The mother really is at fault because the father had been accused of rape at one point, and she turned a blind eye to that accusation. He was degrading to her, and he had lascivious things going on. Like, he would travel to Thailand all the time and do crazy things and whatever. And had she paid attention and demanded something different, she might have been able to save her children. Because what was happening was that daughter was becoming. Well, she was beautiful, she was becoming independent, and she was becoming a rebel.
- [33:01]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right.
- [33:02]
Liz Garbus
And if they weren't in that situation, maybe it never would have happened. So he wanted to control her, and he was controlling the mother and the whole situation. The house was toxic. So, again, I think there's. I'm hearing a theme as we're talking. I want to tell responsible stories about generational abuse and psychological deprivation when it's not dealt with. Because when it's not dealt with, it becomes cancerous and it destroys lives. Because there is a theme in all of these. And had this mother done things differently, and even these kids continue continually being put on her doorstep in a basket with a note attached to it that he wrote himself about their daughter who was wild and doing wild things and had gotten pregnant. And like, oh, here's another baby from our baby. No, they were his baby, and they raised a couple of them.
- [33:57]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
I mean, how.
- [33:58]
Liz Garbus
As, like, the mother, you'd be like.
- [34:00]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
We'D be like, wait, what? Oh, okay, so now we'll just take care of her. I mean, Jolie Fisher, first of all, is wonderful.
- [34:06]
Liz Garbus
She was incredible.
- [34:07]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
And I'm wondering if I. The choice of her having a drink a lot of the time, having a little wine, I feel like that says I'm tuning out a little bit, even. Certainly. I'm sure she didn't imagine the absolute worst. I mean, I don't know what this woman was thinking, but I feel like that was a really smart piece of the character to just sort of suggest, maybe I'm not quite. You know, maybe I'm using this to tune out to what I can't deal with.
- [34:39]
Liz Garbus
And then it's also all about secrets. Like if you really know the history of the Elizabeth Fritzl situation, he and his friend had spent a year redoing the basement into living quarters. For what? I have no idea.
- [34:51]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That no one ever lived in.
- [34:52]
Liz Garbus
No one ever lived in and no one ever spoke about for all those years that that space, if you've seen the pictures, I mean it was like made into a living space down there. It's crazy, right?
- [35:03]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
And she never questioned, oh what happened? What have you been doing in the basement? Where's that?
- [35:07]
Liz Garbus
And the friend that has a daughter missing? You never questioned your friend saying wait a second, what did we just do? What? What? What's all that down there that I helped you engineer and build out?
- [35:17]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh my God.
- [35:18]
Liz Garbus
Okay, scary.
- [35:29]
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- [36:29]
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- [37:28]
Liz Garbus
Hey, this is U.S. olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull.
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Bowen Yang
And I'm U.S. paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
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Liz Garbus
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- [37:47]
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- [37:58]
Cindy Crawford
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- [38:00]
Liz Garbus
Founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're gonna get results, and then you.
- [38:22]
Cindy Crawford
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- [38:23]
Liz Garbus
Meaningful beauty Confidence is beautiful.
- [38:26]
Cindy Crawford
Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com.
- [38:37]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
So there was an article in the Guardian that says Yosef Fritzel began abusing Elizabeth when she was 11. Do you know if that's true? And if so, why did you choose to leave that out of the film?
- [38:48]
Liz Garbus
You know, I don't know if that's true. And we have 87 minutes to tell a story. And, you know, I don't do like the biblical, you know, from from cradle to grave. You know, you've got to find, I think as a filmmaker, you've got to find a singular sort of way in. It was hard enough telling a story of 24 years, let alone going back to the childhood. And I'm not often interested in flashbacks as a vehicle in storytelling. So, yeah, I think this was the right way to do it. But there was word that there was that history, right? I don't know for a fact, though.
- [39:22]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Was there a moment in the movie that still haunts you or a scene in particular that was really meaningful or memorable?
- [39:33]
Liz Garbus
You know, I was asked to play a part in that movie as well, and again, I was sort of Stepping back from the acting. But I thought, you know what? I'll play this part. And it was the nurse who she ran to. Like, I could get emotional.
- [39:48]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That felt like, very emotional.
- [39:52]
Liz Garbus
Yeah. You know, just because I feel like as a filmmaker, you have a responsibility to particularly the victims. So to play the character that she ran to in the movie, I was like, oh, you know, it's so many years ago that I made that movie. And I'm still, like, taken by that because I, you know, I may never meet Elisabeth Fritzel, but I do hope if she sees it, she feels that I, you know, was trying to tell a story that portrayed her in a deep way.
- [40:23]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That scene is really, really strong, really powerful.
- [40:28]
Liz Garbus
Yeah. And what was I seen the other day on Instagram, I was seeing this stewardess who was walking past two people, and this woman flashed her leg, and it had help on it, and she helped get this girl away from this captive. And I thought, you know, wow, that really is like that scene in Girl in the Basement when she ran to and hugged me so hard, like. And he was down the hall looking at me. And that was fictionalized. But I think I did it like that because as a filmmaker, I felt a sense of responsibility that here I was telling this story, she was already out of the basement. She's already moved on with her life. But I hoped if she saw the movie, that she would feel like I was protecting her.
- [41:16]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yeah, that she, your character, saw her, felt she didn't have to say anything. You just knew this girl needs my protection, and she is not okay.
- [41:25]
Liz Garbus
And by the way, these tears sometimes happen on set because these are very intense films. We have not talked about husband, father, killer. But I will just say Jackie Cruise, the journey she went on in that movie, I tell you, scene after scene, she would do these performances, and I would be by the monitor crying, and she would be like, liz, you're crying and I'm crying. What's happening? You know, just really. But it's heavy, heavy stuff. Same thing with, you know, the young actress who played Claudia in Devil on Campus. I mean, you're talking about actresses in these scenes coming to you as the director and being a female director and holding space for them. It can sometimes be very heavy.
- [42:04]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
I mean, I think that's a sign that you're doing something meaningful and something.
- [42:10]
Liz Garbus
Strong and that the actors are good.
- [42:12]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
And that the actors are good. Yeah, everybody is, really.
- [42:15]
Liz Garbus
And that they're going there. There's a sense of responsibility. Again, I say, like, not ambulance chasers. Not interested in Doing gratuitous stories. Definitely love the true crime genre, but trying to do it with a purpose.
- [42:27]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. Did you. So was it important to you then to have that the movie end on a happy note?
- [42:33]
Liz Garbus
Yeah, I think that it is important to have these movies end on a happy note. I think that I'm not trying. I'm not a catastrophi, trying to tell stories that are just so horrible and dark. And I'm not. I. I'm not, you know, trying to sensationalize anything. But I do want to tell stories about the indomitable human spirit. Because no matter what we're going through, everybody's story, everybody is going through something always, Period, end of story. Whether it's their parents aren't well or they're having a bad day with their spouse, or they're just whatever's happening. So to be conscious of each other and to celebrate each other's strengths and our ability to rise, to rise up, you know, from anything and absolutely anything.
- [43:20]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
I mean, she's an example. Do you know anything about the life that Elizabeth went on to live? It was very hard for me to get any information, really.
- [43:28]
Liz Garbus
She chose to really live a private life. I mean, you can imagine they changed names like. Like some, you know, because they're. I mean, they were such a exposed, you know, family. Like, how. And also one of the people who helped her get out, she ended up in a relationship with, I think, for a long. For a while. So that was part of why I sort of had this inspiration to add this, like, boyfriend element into the movie that she did end up seeing that was fictionalized. But she's a private person, and I think she does not want the stigma associated with her or her children, that they're children of incest.
- [44:00]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Right, right.
- [44:01]
Liz Garbus
Yeah. Because they can't then go on and live their lives. When they came out of the basement, they were still young people with a.
- [44:08]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
World of life ahead of them. Right. So Yosef is in prison. He's expected to die there. But then I read something that he wants to reunite with his family and his wife, reconcile with his wife, and thinks that he will see them. I mean, what do you think about that? He is mentally ill. No.
- [44:27]
Liz Garbus
I think they should have put a brick around his ankle and dropped him into the deepest ocean. I support that. I don't know. Honestly, who am I to judge? But that is the worst, most evil person I've ever heard of.
- [44:47]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Agree. I agree.
- [44:49]
Liz Garbus
I mean, if we talk about a serial killer and they're going out and they're killing people, that's pretty bad. But when you are doing this to your own child, it's an unimaginable crime.
- [45:01]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yeah. How do you personally protect yourself emotionally when you're making these movies?
- [45:08]
Liz Garbus
You know, I'm really all about the actors. So once the work is done around the story and creating the story and producing the story with Kara, and then we're off to the races with the network and we're shooting it and filming it, I'm pretty moment to moment, you know, I'm really in the scene with the actor, really trying to architect the arc, you know, to keep the suspense, to keep the thrill, to push for really strong, big performances. And I love actors so much that I'm more enthusiastic than crying behind the monitor. Although there are sometimes scenes where your heart is just so ripped out of your chest because you can't believe this even happened in life. And then the actor elevates it so much that, you know, you can be pretty raw. But most of the time, I'm actually just like. I'm like a player's coach. I'm like doing a round of applause for them. Because being an actor myself, when I see good acting, I'm like. I'm like, that's what it is.
- [46:03]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
That's what it is. So what do you hope that people carry with them after watching this film.
- [46:11]
Liz Garbus
The dating app killer?
- [46:13]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Well, first the girl in the basement, and then each one. We'll say each one, the girl in the basement.
- [46:18]
Liz Garbus
You know, interestingly, the girl in the basement does go into more the family aspect of it. If there is inappropriate behavior at home, if you are with an abusive partner and you have children, get out. Just do whatever you can to get out. Because I think things like that, that are not sort of addressed or confronted, they will. They will become cancerous and things will get worse. It's not maybe. They will definitely get worse in whichever way. So. So protect your children. Even if you're terrified there is help out there for you, ask for it. But above all, even if you're a wounded person who's made bad decisions, just get out, protect your children, and then start to heal yourself. That is the girl in the basement. I would say devil on campus. When you are responsible, again, for young people, like an institution, like a college's or a parent, again, it's about protecting your children. And that is a responsibility that a college commits to a family when they bring their child there. And Sarah Lawrence is a phenomenal college. I loved it. I just think that there have to be very Strong restrictions as to who can get access to these kids that you're responsible for. And then the dating app killer. You know, I loved the doc, the Tinder Swindler. I thought that was so interesting because I think it's. It could happen to anybody. There's no shame in sort of being duped by a love bomber or being manipulated by somebody you meet online or whatever. Just don't flush your life away. Try to listen to your instincts and definitely don't meet people in dark places without a plus one. You know, make sure you sick. Make sure. Yeah. For at least a couple of your interactions.
- [48:08]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Oh, also, before we close up, I know you're a huge supporter of rainn Rape Abuse and Incest Network. It's the nation's largest antisexual violence organization and operator of the national sexual assault hotline. And I know at the end of the 13. We did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything more you want to say about rainn?
- [48:28]
Liz Garbus
I just want to say that, you know, RAINN is there for you. If you are in any of these kinds of relationships. If you're terrified and you have nowhere to go, this is an organization that is there for you. And I think Lifetime again continues to responsibly tell these stories. There's always a call to action. And I really hope that people, if they're finding themselves witnessing these things, experiencing these things, that they reach out for help. There is help out there for you.
- [48:57]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Yes. Okay. Well, the Girl in the Basement is streaming on Hulu Devil on campus, the Larry Ray Story is streaming on Netflix, and the dating app killer, the Monica White story. Enjoy.
- [49:11]
Liz Garbus
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [49:13]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
Thank you. It's been great.
- [49:23]
Bowen Yang
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- [50:00]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
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- [50:28]
Bowen Yang
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Liz Garbus
So here's the idea.
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Bowen Yang
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Liz Garbus
What do you have to lose?
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Bowen Yang
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Cindy Crawford
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- [50:57]
Interviewer (possibly a journalist or podcast host)
See terms.
- [50:58]
Cindy Crawford
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- [51:29]
Liz Garbus
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