← Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Killer Thriller: You Thought It Was Sexy Men But It Was Murder
00:51:44
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- [00:00]
A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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B
Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer.
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A
Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan. Oh, my goodness. I am very excited. We are pulling back the curtain on a story that you may think you know, thanks to Hulu's welcome to Chippendales. But let me tell you something. The real version is even wilder. And our guest today is Jay Schwartz, now a legendary Hollywood publicist. But back in the 80s, he was deep inside the rise of Chippendales New York. Jay knew everybody, all the players. He witnessed the chaos firsthand. And he knew Nick denoia before his shocking murder. I am so excited to talk to Jay about all the stories that never made it on screen, the personalities behind the scenes, and the moment that it all turned dangerous. Jay, welcome to Killer Thriller.
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B
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I excited to be here.
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A
I am so excited to be here and I honestly, I have to. So I. You can see I have like 17, 000 pages of notes and so I. First of all, I will tell you my what I thought Chippendales was. This was an 80. I was born in 1971, so I was like 10, 11, 12 when all this happening. All I remember were the commercials and it was like, oh, this just seems like, you know, handsome guys with. Just dancing with their shirts off and that's. That's all there is to it. So I had no idea that there were multiple murders, that people were like sleeping together. And like I thought it was like nice buttoned up white ladies going to watch men, you know, just kind of dance.
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B
Well, there were one thing is true, they were nice white ladies showing up to do that. In New York, it's called the bridge and tunnel crowd. But they were far from innocent, these women. They were far from innocent. So the, the Chippendales, the idea of Chippendales. Let me go back a little bit. Okay. Chippendales is not what people thought it was. Right. Chippendale started in Los Angeles, right? The story of Chippendales that has been portrayed, portrayed on every podcast. And this show is not the story of Chippendale.
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A
Okay, so tell us what I. Okay, very quickly we'll tell you the story of welcome to Chippendales, which is the Hulu series. It's phenomenal cast. I want to know what you think about the cast as well. But I. Everybody is compelling and I mean, Juliet Lewis, Annalee Ashford. Anyway, the cast is phenomenal. Juliet Lewis is like a star of the first order. So, so that people know the. This show welcome to Chippendales focuses on the rise of the club, first starting in LA and then it comes to New York, becomes an international phenomenon thanks in large part to Nick Denoia, whom you know and who is my boss. Who was your boss. And then you're going to tell us how you got involved in New York. And he was really the creative mind behind the show.
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B
Right.
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A
So this series is really through the lens. Steve Banerjee, who was the businessman behind it and began it in la. So. Yes.
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B
But to go back just one step, when you said, you know, women coming into it, it was these women weren't. If you think that men were sleazy when they went to strip clubs, didn't hold the candle to these women really.
- [03:50]
A
So. Because also I remember watching and thinking, aren't these all gay men? Like, I didn't understand, like, this is what wanted women wanted to see this. I'm like, is there something wrong with me?
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B
Well, because it wasn't. You didn't know what it really was, right?
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A
I guess I didn't.
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B
And the only gay guys in. In the New York club were our, you know, backup dancers. Was our troupe.
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A
Interesting.
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B
And so we. I will get into New York and. And what the show was and how it was and what Nick's vision was. But tell me where you want to.
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A
So how do you. I know there are so many places. So tell us, how did you meet Nick? How did you come to be involved in Chippendales in the first place?
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B
I worked for a Broadway producer named Fred Zolo. And at the time he was dating a woman. He's now married to Barbara Rockley. At the time, he was. He was dating a woman named Barbara Liggety. So I worked in a PR office.
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A
Now, right, Broadway producer.
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B
Yes. I was working in an office first I was doing publicity for a company called Burnham Callahan, which was my second job. My first job, I had worked for Salters, Ruskin and Friedman. And at that time, in the 80s, the two big PR companies were solters, Ruskin and Friedman, who handled Sinatra and Barbra Streisand and Rogers and Cowan. Those were the two big.
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A
Oh, yep, yep.
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B
I left there, got a job at Burnham and Callahan was working there and Fred Zolow rented an office, a space out of there. I was all about entertainment and getting into this world. I studied acting in school in Long island and Barbara was a club promoter. You know, she threw parties, Broadway openings, parties, opening nights. And she got approached from a club called Magique. So in New York at the time, the biggest clubs were Studio 54.
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A
Right.
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B
Magique Area Area and Limelight.
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A
Oh, that's even. Limelight. That those were around even when I moved into the city in 89, 90. Yeah.
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B
And it was wild. As you can imagine, the 80s were. And so Barbara got a call from the owners of Magic, who they had worked, you know, they worked together. And they said, you know, we're doing this club. We're bringing Chippendales, which no one really knew.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Did you know what it was? No, nobody. I mean, you heard of it, but you didn't really know what it was. And we're bringing it to New York. And so the concept was from 6 to 10, the club was Chippendales. From 10 to 4, it was a regular club. So now you have to imagine I'm catching. They rebuilt the club, you know, the interior of the club, and we were hiring and rehearsing everything all during that summer.
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A
You were hiring the dancers?
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B
Yeah, but I went ahead. So Barbara told them they can't. She couldn't do it, but she had somebody who could do it. And she came to me and said, I want you to meet with this guy named Nick De Noia. And I think this would be perfect. And I was hesitant because I wanted to work on Broadway. We had just opened a show called Hurly Burly on Broadway.
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A
Oh, my goodness.
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B
And no, no, just go and do that and you can come back to this. I said, okay. So I went and had dinner with Nick at a restaurant that's no longer there, but I used to go there all the time called JR's. It was on 46th Street. And we're in the restaurant and he's just smoking his cigarettes along and being him and says, okay, you know, come work for me. And he's.
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A
So he. So the people know he was, like, considered the creative mind behind it, that he wanted to make it a real.
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B
Show idea was unlike la, Nick was. He portrayed himself as way more successful than he was. So he wanted this highly unusual in Los Angeles. Right. But he had won two Emmys for this show, Unicorn Tales, called Unicorn Tales, which was a children's show, ironically.
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A
Yeah, I do find that odd, but.
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B
Right. And so his idea was to make this as close to a Broadway show as possible because he was not getting a Broadway.
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A
Right, right.
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B
So they made the club and how to get in the club and what the show was about very similar to doing a Broadway show. We had a choreographer, we had music, we had a box office. We. You could call in, make reservations, get tickets. It was on Ticketron. They hired a Broadway publicist to come and do this.
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A
And was that all his idea to do? Was that his. The.
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B
I was his idea to do it like that.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, there were different numbers. Yeah, but he also said the opening of the show, his idea of Chippendales was more burlesque, not the sleazy strip shows.
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A
Right.
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B
That men would go to see women undressed, but more like Gypsy Rose Lee. Leaving more to the right.
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A
Like he understood that women didn't want to just look at a good looking man. Like they, we need more depth. We need some kind of an emotional interest or some kind of like sensuality. To a point or to a point. Right.
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B
Because this club fit 600 people. Right. Doors would open at 6 o' clock and 6 o'.
- [10:07]
A
Clock. Like let's think about this. That's quite early. Yes, that's like early bird special dinner.
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B
Hour show didn't start till 8.
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A
Oh, you're kidding. So people are getting smashed. Okay.
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B
And.
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A
Or that I would have been getting.
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B
Smashed in those two.
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A
That's a long time.
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B
No men were allowed in the club. Right. So this is all women, which is what made this all work because it was all women, all inhibitions. And more importantly, the rules of Chippendales were Chippendales is a Disneyland for ladies. So when you're a good looking guy, you know, you had to be 6ft, abs, ripped the spandex pants. Right. With nothing left to the imagination. Cuffs, collars, bow tie.
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A
Did you have anything to do with casting these people? Did you have to interview any of them?
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B
That's what I did.
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A
You did?
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B
I did all the hiring and firing.
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A
You did. So wait, what was the criteria? I heard there was a. I said.
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B
Six foot and good looking, you know, and I'd have to say to the guys, take your shirt off. That was uncomfortable.
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A
Right.
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B
For me to do. Because I don't tell guys to take your clothes off.
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A
Right.
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B
So. But I arranged it, you know, in the office is where the guys would come to meet me. But I had a room full of women, you know, who worked in the office.
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A
Right.
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B
So they would go like the, you know, raise their thumb or lower their thumb.
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A
Oh, you're kidding. It was like the secret.
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B
Yeah, but. But again, after a while it was just take your shirt off. It was just like it didn't matter. It didn't have the stigma of a guy saying to another guy, take your shirt off. Because in the beginning that was uncomfortable.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But the guys who we hired, waiters, hosts, Bus boys. Even the bus.
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A
Yeah. So everyone that worked there was male, correct?
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B
Yep.
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A
Right.
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B
Except our costume girl was Amy.
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A
So she was she. So to talking about the series also, Juliet Lewis plays a character called Barbara Coughlin.
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B
I don't know who.
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A
That's right. So they say, they say that she's more of like a composite character to represent a bunch of different people. But I think that probably she might mostly resemble Candace. Marin. Marin, Is that the name? Oh wait, you're shaking your head. I was going to say tell me that you love her because she just seems so ballsy and like bananas. Don't like her. Wait, tell me what?
- [12:49]
B
But let's go back.
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A
Oh no.
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B
So Chippendales, Disneyland for ladies. And here are the rules of working at Chippendales. When a woman comes in the door, you're talking to her. No matter what she looks like, what ethnicity she is.
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A
Interesting.
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B
You're talking to this one person right in front of you. Doesn't matter who else comes in here, this is the person you're talking to. So the idea was you need to make this woman feel she's the most important woman in the world. And that's a part of the fantasy. Yes. And that's what Chippendale was.
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A
That's very, very smart. Like that is a really good way to do things.
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B
And then the opening of our, you know, on the video screens was Chippendale's was burlesque images of women and men, you know, throughout the ages. So it was really showing you that this was a show and you had to buy tickets for the show and it was a real experience. And so I give that to Nick. Nick's idea for, for all of that was perfect. It really was. And it, that's what made the club so successful.
- [14:15]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
But there are a lot of other elements that came in. You know, in the very beginning it was me and Nick. We brought in the choreographer from here who was the L A Rams choreographer, her name was Nancy Gregory. And you know, then we brought in a few dancers from LA to open the club here. But then we had to hire a staff for the club. So host, waiters, barboy, you know, bar backs, they all had to be good looking guys too. That was the rule. Everybody who worked here had to be gorgeous, had to be good looking because you're walking around without a shirt.
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A
Right.
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B
This club very, very different than the LA club. And I'll say again, I had nothing.
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A
To do with the la. So you, you feel like the Los Angeles one was a bit more Seedy, a little more direct in terms of.
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B
Yes.
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A
And the things about taking your clothes off and women. So all of the things.
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B
I'm not saying that that didn't happen, that that didn't happen in New York, but the New York club was much classier. So what happened when the New York club opened? Chippendales. You know, people heard of Chippendales and it was successful in Los Angeles. But when New York opened, that's what put Chippendales on the map. So our standards were much, much higher, you know, and it's very specific about who you're hiring. You know, when I used to go to the Jersey shore, down to Belmar in the summers and people found out who I was on the beach and there was this one guy, Tony, of course. Of course was his name from Jersey and he would a song, you know, everybody have their boomboxes. And a specific song came on. So many Men, so Little Time was a song, it was a really good dance song. And whenever it came on the radio, you know, he would get up in the middle of the beach and start dancing to this song in his little.
- [16:25]
A
Red spino and his little speedo.
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B
Every week, right? And everyone on the beach would yell out, hey, Jay, look, Tony's dancing for you. I was like, you know, and he was a good looking guy and his body was good, but he was too short, couldn't hire him.
- [16:42]
A
What a. I mean, but I would.
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B
Have hired him had that not have been I, I would have hired him. Is that, you know, being hired there, you have to have a certain personality. You have to know what you're getting into.
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A
Right?
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B
Of course. Okay, so that's that new LA club. A lot, I'm not going to say a lot of what was portrayed because I don't know, the people who wrote the books, I don't know how they got the information, but it is inaccurate. Yeah, I think it's inaccurate.
- [17:27]
A
What do you think is you, you've watched the series. Y welcome to Chipmunkiel. So what do you think is the most. What's the, the thing you are like, this is totally wrong.
- [17:37]
B
The way the guys looked.
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A
Oh, how they look.
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B
No, no disrespect to those actors, but they were not good looking guys. And again, no disrespect and no shade.
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A
But more kind of like.
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B
But you know, you had a bald guy, you had a pot belly and nobody had hair on their chest except.
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A
Oh really?
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B
Like we had one guy, Mike.
- [18:00]
A
Oh, that's right. I remember all of the images Mike had.
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B
He was the only one who had hair on his chest. Nobody else did. And in watching this, they had one guy, also hair on his chest and a beard and long hair. None of the people who worked in New York had beards. You had to be clean shave.
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A
Had to be clean shaven.
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B
Yeah. I mean, mustache was okay.
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A
Right.
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B
But that was the only similarity, you know, that guy and Mike. But everybody else who worked there, they were not good looking enough. And Steve would not have that.
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A
He wouldn't have it. Yeah. Did you feel the tension between Steve being in LA and Nick being in New York? And like, what was, what was the.
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B
See, I was in the middle of it. You have to understand, you have Steve in Los Angeles. Steve was an Indian man, you know, from Bombay. He'd show up on Friday nights, every so often in a tan suit and sandals from India. And he'd come in, wouldn't let anyone know he was coming because there was no men in the club, remember? And just to check on his club to see no one cheating.
- [19:15]
A
He wouldn't even Nick, he wouldn't tell you he said he was coming.
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B
Nobody we did not know.
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A
Wow.
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B
And I used to speak to Steve all the time personally. I liked Steve. Steve was always very good to me.
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A
You felt like he was a nice guy?
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B
To me. Yes. You know, there were times where I would be yelling at him on the phone, saying, what's wrong with you? Is California? Turn the sun there, Turn your brains to mush. What? What's up? Now I'm an aggressive, arrogant New Yorker who's basically a kid, right? Because. And it was ridiculous. I need you to send me new cod pieces that light up. I need more. More.
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A
So he's all bent out of shape about cod pieces.
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B
Not him, me.
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A
You are saying to him, you need to send me these things, right?
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B
Because they're not working anymore. You need to send me new ones. I need more cuffs and collars. I need more bow ties and like. Because this is what it took to make the show.
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A
Right?
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B
And so, you know, now, knowing what I know, I probably wouldn't have been so aggressive toward him.
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A
Yeah, you were probably on his hit.
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B
List that he was a murderer. I mean, you know, but he would come into New York and take me out to lunch and take me to dinner with his wife and his newborn children. And I liked him.
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A
So was his wife, as was she. As kind of.
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B
I did not know.
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A
They make her seem like she's very smart and she's very capable and really was kind of keeping the wheels on the bus for a little bit.
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B
I really don't know what Irene did. I do know Irene was very quiet, always when she was with me, when we went to lunch and dinner and with the children. So I did not know that Irene was involved in the club. So for me, you know, I don't know that.
- [21:07]
A
Right. Cause that makes it seem. In the show. They also make it seem as though.
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B
She was very right and I involved. That was. Whoever wrote this book took a lot of liberties. Liberties.
- [21:20]
A
You know, so what about all of the things.
- [21:22]
B
But no, just let me answer your. Your previous question. Nobody liked Nick really, in today's world. And this is how I describe Nick. He was a cross between Harvey Weinstein and Scott Rudin. Oh. On top of.
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A
I've worked for Scott.
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B
On top.
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A
And I've met Harvey.
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B
Okay, so on top of being in the closet.
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A
Right.
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B
But he was. Talk about very flamboyant.
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A
Oh, really? So that's almost like a. That's a very sort of the word I'm looking for. You know, it's like if he's in the closet, but he's almost tempting. Taunting people to sort of say something about him. Like, that's a very aggressive sort of way to behave.
- [22:12]
B
No, he would. So I'd get guys to come in. You know, we'd make appointments. Before I hired them, Nick had to see him. So it was always the. The, you know, take your shirt off. One particular day, you know, it was like before the club was opening. You know, the guys were coming in to get ready. And this. I had this guy come in, and Nick came in because he knew he had to be there for this. And, you know, I said, you know, whatever his name was, you know, take off your shirt. And Nick was standing there. And now this is in front of all the guys that worked in the club that, you know, were getting ready. Nick would say, this is what he said. I'll never forget this. Mmm, delicious. Oh, and that's just creepy.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
That's just.
- [23:04]
A
Yeah. Can you imagine going into a job interview if someone said that to me?
- [23:09]
B
But remember, this is the 80s, so there was no me, too. There was no. No saying something wrong. You could say whatever you wanted, whatever you wanted.
- [23:16]
A
But this is so also, was it. Is it true that people were like. They say there was a. Something called an orgy room. That. That's. No. You're shaking your head no. That's a lie.
- [23:27]
B
Nope. Orgy room. It was the.
- [23:31]
A
Oh, it was just.
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B
It was the dressing room. What? Orgy room.
- [23:34]
A
So people.
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B
An Orgy to me is a bunch of people around there all getting. Having sex together.
- [23:40]
A
This is semantics. We're not. It wasn't an orgy room, per se, but it was more. No, a room where people had sex separately. But it was in one room.
- [23:51]
B
But again, I cannot vouch for the la. I can either confirm. I can tell you what we did, myself included, in New York.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah, well, that's what I want to hear.
- [24:04]
B
Okay, but you asked me if. Did everybody have a problem with Nick? And what was the. What was the dynamics? So LA with Steve, New York, Nick and myself in the middle, because I worked for Nick, technically. And then the owners of the club in New York, Steve and Gary.
- [24:30]
A
So there was another owner in New York who was Gary?
- [24:33]
B
They were brothers. Steve and Gary were brothers in New York. And then there was another, an older man named Jerry Denver. And his piece of information, his grandson owned it today.
- [24:45]
A
Okay, Kevin, So the.
- [24:47]
B
So, but I'm saying nobody liked Nick because of his. Just because of who he was, his personality. He was an outrageous, egomaniacal son of a bitch. You know, he was not a good guy.
- [25:03]
A
Wow.
- [25:03]
B
He tortured me. You know, it's just horrible, horrible, horrible to me. Now, other people might have loved Nick and everybody. To each their own.
- [25:15]
A
Like, even the woman that I was speaking of before, Candace Marin, they make it seem like they were friends.
- [25:21]
B
His friend.
- [25:22]
A
Okay.
- [25:23]
B
Candace now portrays herself like she was a producer on the show.
- [25:28]
A
She most definitely does.
- [25:29]
B
Right. She's not. She wasn't.
- [25:31]
A
Wow.
- [25:32]
B
So I was the produ.
- [25:33]
A
You know, Jay, if you say it, it makes it true.
- [25:36]
B
Yes, I know. And she convinces other people that she did this. Now, from what I've heard, Candace was. She did run the tour, but the tour happened after me way later.
- [25:50]
A
Right.
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B
So I made sure when I was working at the club that I had a title and a business card, and it said, J.D. schwartz, Associate Producer. And I can show you on my phone all the pictures from Chippendales with the business card.
- [26:05]
A
Right?
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B
With everything. Candace was not a producer on the show. And ironically, a few years ago, we had a get together for one of the guys that I had hired. I flew back to New Jersey for this, and Candace was there. And she kept wanting to come over and talk to me. And I didn't want to talk to her because the things that she was saying is just a lie. You were not the associate producer. I was the associate producer. You didn't hire the guys in the clubs in New York. And all I've claimed to do. I worked in New York, right? It was me. There was only one me. I did it all right? Hiring, firing, costumes, everything. And I had a counterpart from Magic who worked in the club. Because when the club. I haven't even told you about that yet, but we're not up to that yet.
- [27:02]
A
Yeah, we have so much to cover. I don't even know how we're gonna handle it.
- [27:05]
B
But anyway, she finally came over to me, you know, when people were standing around and was this.
- [27:13]
A
Like, during.
- [27:13]
B
Like, this was a. We were doing a fundraiser for this guy who has Ms. Okay, Ms. Ms. And I flew in to be there, and I just kept avoiding her. And she finally came over to me, and she said, well, if. I know if you have something negative to say, I said, first of all, you've come over to me. I didn't come to you. Your relationship with Nick and my relationship with Nick, two different things. I said, but I have seen things and heard things that you've said. You were the producer on the show. That's a lie. You weren't the producer of the show.
- [27:53]
A
And what did you say?
- [27:54]
B
Well, I did the tour. I'm like, okay, I had nothing to do with the tour. That was after I left. So maybe you produced that. But you were not a producer in the club for the show. You did not do that. And, you know, the guys were around me because all these guys, I hired them. They're my friends, right? And they're. You know, everyone was, like, standing up or being there for me. And then that was the end of it. And she said, well, if you don't have anything nice to say, I don't want to hear it.
- [28:23]
A
If you keep bringing up my lies, Jay, I don't want to hear it.
- [28:26]
B
Right? If I'm calling you out, I'm like, okay, again, you came over to me. I didn't come over to you. I don't really have anything to say to you. So when I hear that other people. Well, Candace said. I don't give a fuck. Candace said. Because Candace had no part in my life.
- [28:46]
A
Right?
- [28:46]
B
Don't step into my life.
- [28:49]
A
So she wasn't even a part of the show in New York. She really was just.
- [28:54]
B
No, she had nothing to do with the show in New York whatsoever. She was literally.
- [28:56]
A
Literally. Oh, my gosh.
- [28:57]
B
I met her one night at the club with Nick. When Nick came running up to me earlier in the night, before the club opened, there was a big meeting. All the guys that worked there, Nick, Gary and Steven, there's too much cocaine going around in this club. We gotta stop the cocaine. Nobody can sell cocaine. It's gotta stop. So, okay, let's just say, okay, that night, Nick had Candace. I guess she flew in and I don't know who else. The moment the show ended, he came running up to me, he said, you gotta find some coke. Get me some coke. Oh, my God. Who's gonna want to sign you coke? You. You just told everybody gonna lose their job if they're dealing in the club.
- [29:45]
A
So why was.
- [29:46]
B
So that's the first time I met Candace.
- [29:48]
A
Oh, when. And that was it.
- [29:50]
B
That was my whole thing with Nick. Candace.
- [29:53]
A
Wow. That's it. She was like just sort of standing there while he was asking you to get him some cocaine.
- [30:00]
B
Yes.
- [30:01]
A
That's really like try to make yourself a primary character in a story sort of person.
- [30:06]
B
Yeah. Wow. And so look, I've only done one interview before this, and it was an A. E. Yes. I watched that documentary.
- [30:14]
A
Yes.
- [30:15]
B
And so I had somebody just put all of my stuff on one link for me. And I see. Because I just rewatched it the other night and I see how the documentary. If I said something, they put in a clip of somebody else. And it sounded as if we were talking about the same thing.
- [30:36]
A
Definitely. And we weren't really made to look that way.
- [30:39]
B
The one of the guys there, the black eye in the. Yes. In the. It's like he was a big deal there.
- [30:45]
A
Right.
- [30:46]
B
First of all, Steve really wasn't a big proponent.
- [30:50]
A
That's my question. Was that real in the series? They make it seem like he was pretty racist.
- [30:54]
B
Yes, he was. And so I. And I didn't even know who the guy was. Right. So it just goes to show you.
- [31:02]
A
Right. Because he was saying he was at the New York show. He was not particular guy. Right. But in this series, all of the.
- [31:08]
B
Hiring in New York, it was nobody else. It was me. So I would. I could tell you everybody who worked for me.
- [31:16]
A
Wow. Wow. Right.
- [31:18]
B
And because we still have a bond to this day. Yeah.
- [31:21]
A
Do you talk to the.
- [31:22]
B
I don't talk to them a lot, but, you know, we go back and forth.
- [31:40]
A
When you started working with Nick and you knew that it was going to be Chippendales, had you already heard about. Because we haven't even talked about the fact that there was already a murder suicide that happened before this even.
- [31:52]
B
I didn't know any story about Stratton until Snyder, until.
- [31:56]
A
You didn't know till later.
- [31:57]
B
Nope.
- [31:57]
A
Okay. I mean, that makes sense.
- [31:59]
B
And again, I'm saying to you, look at how I spoke to Steve Banerjee myself.
- [32:03]
A
Right.
- [32:04]
B
Had I known that he'd done that, I wouldn't have spoken to him as an arrogant New Yorker.
- [32:08]
A
Right.
- [32:09]
B
Brain. Does the sun turn your brain to mush in California? What's the deal with you guys? Are you that slow?
- [32:15]
A
So it sounds like you had a more.
- [32:18]
B
And now I'm a full Californian.
- [32:21]
A
I mean, it happens to all of us. I feel the same too. I get cold, you know, in 60 degree weather this morning I was really sad.
- [32:29]
B
46 degrees.
- [32:30]
A
Pathetic of us. But it sounds like you almost had a more congenial relationship with Steve than you did with Nick.
- [32:38]
B
I did. I absolutely did. Wow. So there was also an audit. Steve was auditing the New York Club. The New York Club was auditing Nick. I was. I was auditing Steve. I had to be a witness for both sides.
- [32:54]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [32:55]
B
On the same day with. With an attorney there that they paid for. I'm like, what am I supposed that.
- [33:03]
A
The other was stealing from?
- [33:06]
B
And everybody hated Nick. And Nick would disappear for times. And then they made the rules. Like Nick couldn't go leave the New York Club without written, you know, he had a knit in writing that he wanted to write to say, I'm gonna go for a week. And then they had to sign, physically sign off on it when Nick would go back to California.
- [33:28]
A
Oh, my gosh. So. So could you tell that this was. I mean, this just seems. Where. At what point was it that you could feel or did you not. Could you feel like things are starting to go a little sideways here?
- [33:45]
B
I knew it. I just. I mean, you had to be blind not to know what was going on. And maybe the guys didn't know, but because I was office, you know. But I was also like, I'm the guy that everybody talked to, you know, like.
- [34:02]
A
Yeah.
- [34:02]
B
When the LA dancers were going back, I had to go out to strip clubs, men's strip clubs in New York to look for male dancers. I had to replace two guys. New Jersey is where I went.
- [34:16]
A
Yep.
- [34:17]
B
To do it, you know, But I mean, a lot of good stuff. Well, good stuff at the time. If you're a young guy and you want to get into clubs, you know, all the clubs in New York City, you can just call up and say, hey, it's Jay from Chibonnells.
- [34:31]
A
Right.
- [34:32]
B
You know, I want to come into Studio 54 tonight.
- [34:35]
A
Right.
- [34:35]
B
You know, there was that.
- [34:37]
A
I mean, what a great. How so? You were so young. I mean, that must have, like, skewed your sense of reality.
- [34:44]
B
It did. I Mean, in that club. There was a brotherhood in the club. So you ask. You said before about the gay guy. So all of the backup dancers, they were Broadway dancers and backup meaning they.
- [35:02]
A
Were never the primary guys. They were the sort of doing.
- [35:06]
B
If one of the guys literally Broadway backup dance. They were, you know, dancers right in there. And we had our choreographer. All of them were gay, with the exception of one of them, who is actually a very successful actor.
- [35:23]
A
You're kidding.
- [35:24]
B
Yes. And we stay in touch by Instagram.
- [35:28]
A
Was that purposeful to hire or was everybody in the closet?
- [35:33]
B
Because our main dancers were not good dancers either. If you look at, like, you watch them on Regis. Regis. Because they were on Regis all the time.
- [35:42]
A
They're very good at with the hips.
- [35:44]
B
The big guy was our Conan the Barbarian.
- [35:48]
A
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Right.
- [35:49]
B
And Sam couldn't dance at. Sam. No.
- [35:51]
A
Oh, Sam.
- [35:52]
B
It's just poor Sam.
- [35:53]
A
Poor Sam.
- [35:54]
B
All of them were sweethearts, but it's like, they're not dancers.
- [35:57]
A
Right.
- [35:58]
B
So they had to have people who could dance.
- [36:01]
A
Right.
- [36:01]
B
And I would say maybe 1, 2, 3 of the other staff members.
- [36:12]
A
Meaning like waiters, wait staff, greeters, something.
- [36:18]
B
Yes. I would say they were gay. I. You'd never say it, though.
- [36:24]
A
Right, right.
- [36:25]
B
But more importantly, because we were such a brotherhood and we were insulated in that club.
- [36:32]
A
Yep.
- [36:33]
B
It didn't matter.
- [36:34]
A
It didn't matter.
- [36:34]
B
Nobody cared. It was one for all and, you know, all for one and one for all. We were all in it together and nobody else was experiencing what we were.
- [36:44]
A
Right.
- [36:44]
B
Experiencing together. So.
- [36:46]
A
Right.
- [36:46]
B
It didn't matter.
- [36:47]
A
Yeah.
- [36:47]
B
You know, but no, that's a big misconception people have. Oh, everyone in there's gay. I'm like, no, they're not.
- [36:54]
A
Wow. So did anybody. Was there any judgment upon. So first of all, just so that we're clear, were people, patrons having sex with the dancers?
- [37:04]
B
Yes.
- [37:05]
A
Was this happening?
- [37:05]
B
And the waiters.
- [37:06]
A
And the waiters. Everybody.
- [37:08]
B
And the bar and it was Barbados.
- [37:09]
A
Always a financial exchange. Or not. It was just like, after. Right. So it wasn't like a lap dance. I'm paying because it wasn't there. The kiss.
- [37:19]
B
The kiss and tip.
- [37:20]
A
Kiss and tip. Yeah.
- [37:21]
B
No, that's. That was a part of the show. You can't do a kiss and tip now because of COVID and everything else. Can't do that. So now it's a stage show in Las Vegas where they're on a stage. This set. We were in the round.
- [37:35]
A
Yep, Yep.
- [37:36]
B
And so women would pay to have the seats, you know, around the dance Excuse me. Around the dance floor, right? You know.
- [37:46]
A
Oh, sure, right. They would probably pay more.
- [37:49]
B
The hosts would, you know, a woman would say, you know, here's 20, you know, and so the waiter would come over. So after, after the act, then they would do free style dancing. Kiss and tit. Wow. So they had their music and then someone would come and hold a 20 over your head and so that the dancer would know.
- [38:13]
A
20 to bucks.
- [38:14]
B
I used to pick women up and twirl them around the dance floor. A lot of women weren't wearing underwear.
- [38:19]
A
Oh my God. Ladies, ladies.
- [38:24]
B
So when I say to you, which going back, doors open at 6, you start drinking hard liquor. You're being focused on by this gorgeous looking guy. The show starts at 8. You're still drinking during the show. They're doing the show.
- [38:42]
A
Oh, boy.
- [38:43]
B
By the end of the show, you have 600 horny women right in there at 10 o', clock, right? The doors open to men.
- [38:53]
A
Genius.
- [38:54]
B
This is like, this is like genius. Fish in a barrel, right? But this is like.
- [38:59]
A
So the men must.
- [39:02]
B
So this is a city block in New York. You're in front of the club, there's a line going that way, down that street, there's a line going this way down the street of guys trying to get into the club.
- [39:16]
A
How much did they have at the time? How much did men have to pay to get in there? I hope they charged him an arm and a leg.
- [39:21]
B
I don't.
- [39:21]
A
They probably didn't, I don't remember.
- [39:23]
B
But they drank.
- [39:24]
A
They're like, it was worth it.
- [39:25]
B
And also during the show, there were no men allowed in there. So if women, you know, they got savvy and they wanted to hook up with a waiter, a host, whomever. The men's room was wide open because there was nobody.
- [39:42]
A
There was nobody in it. Oh, my God.
- [39:45]
B
Except Jose, who was also dealing coke.
- [39:49]
A
Except for the coke dealer.
- [39:51]
B
So Jose was our bathroom guy. Oh, he.
- [39:55]
A
But he also provides. So he had a little towelette, maybe a mint or an eight ball or something. Right. Okay. What's the language? Is that the right lingo? I can't. I mean, this is. I don't even know.
- [40:10]
B
I feel like I've just told you so much stuff about New York when this was, you know, you started asking me about la.
- [40:20]
A
Well, I just wanted people to. For people who are unfamiliar to really kind of understand the. The. It's not even a migration. It's really like Nick said, I want to do this in New York. Right. And it's really him and it did certainly become far more famous and somewhat international, certainly because of New York.
- [40:42]
B
Yes. But the story of Chippendales, and this is my biggest gripe, is not about the murder.
- [40:50]
A
No.
- [40:51]
B
The murder happened five years later. So I started working there in 1983. The story of Chippendales is the story of Chippendales. What happened in that club? What was the club about? Why was it so successful? What was. How did it become what it became? Every single podcast, this show is. Every single thing is about the same thing, right. Steve Banerjee. Steve Banerjee was his club. Absolutely.
- [41:28]
A
Because people say it's like he, you know, came looking for the American dream in a very simple sort of description. Right. And then that. And also because of that, he was, you know, felt his own racism, I'm sure, and did made certain decisions based on that. But so it's this story that is so full of so many elements, but.
- [41:51]
B
What does the American dream entail? Think about greed. Greed. That's the through line that was the problem between Steve and Gary, Nick and Steve. It was all greed. Because when I started working for Nick, you know, no computers, no emails.
- [42:14]
A
Right, right, right.
- [42:16]
B
Nick had me type letters on a typewriter to different venues where he wanted to take the show because he did not want to work for Steve. He wanted to take the show.
- [42:29]
A
Right.
- [42:30]
B
And then I would have to make a Xerox copy of the letter and put the phone number down on there so I could follow up with the people to set the meetings with Nick to go take this show out. So Nick had had it with Steve, wanted out of there. Thing is, what they do have. Correct in this is. Yes, they signed.
- [42:52]
A
That's what I was just going to ask the napkin.
- [42:55]
B
Steve did not know what touring rights were, what the word perpetuity was. He didn't know. So Nick knew what he was doing. He wasn't stupid. And.
- [43:09]
A
And because that became the bulk of the financial success.
- [43:12]
B
But did say, you want to get your attorney about. No, no, no. If I'm gonna sit back and take.
- [43:18]
A
50% of nothing of me doing nothing. Right.
- [43:22]
B
But when Steve, as it shows in this. Because that's true, but they leave out so many things. And that's the problem.
- [43:32]
A
I have so much nuance, so many details, so many things.
- [43:36]
B
It's like, oh, the guy that he went to kill the dancer in. In. In.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, in Europe. In.
- [43:43]
B
In Europe. You know, he and a couple of other guys left the LA Club because they couldn't deal with Steve anymore, and they went to go do Their own thing.
- [43:51]
A
So this is.
- [43:52]
B
So Steve wanted to have them killed.
- [43:53]
A
Right, Right.
- [43:54]
B
So this is.
- [43:54]
A
You're referring to Adonis. Right? This is the name of the. These. A couple of dancers from LA went to somewhere in the uk. I don't know if it was London. I think it was somewhere in the uk, though. And started their own show.
- [44:06]
B
Right.
- [44:06]
A
And he found out. It's like a very megalomaniacal. But the guy that way to be.
- [44:12]
B
Did was an FBI agent. The guy that Steve hired was an FBI informant.
- [44:20]
A
Wait, the guy who he hired to do what?
- [44:22]
B
To murder the guy?
- [44:25]
A
No way. That's.
- [44:26]
B
And that's how Steve got caught. And then Steve made a deal when he was in prison that nothing could be taken away from his wife and kids. And they came the next morning to take him into court to make this agreement, and they found him hanging in.
- [44:44]
A
His jail and he hung himself. So I thought that he hired some like, drug addict guy to do it. So the whole thing with Ray Cologne.
- [44:57]
B
The murderer was like a drug addict guy. But that's not. That had already happened.
- [45:05]
A
Yes. Right. So he hires. I mean, this is what it's like. Very hard to keep track of all of the. So do you think. So you're. You're saying, okay, you've had, you know, a lovely dinner with Steve and his family and is there any part of you that thinks. I mean, this is always a question for me, you know, like, oh, he was a good neighbor. Oh, you know, it's always nice, a little quiet.
- [45:26]
B
It was the same thing. I didn't know anything about setting the other club on fire. I didn't know about anything.
- [45:33]
A
Right. He also had. Because.
- [45:35]
B
And also, look, I was like to the nails from.
- [45:39]
A
Yeah, you're focused on your job till.
- [45:41]
B
Night and doing all the things I had to do. And I really didn't have that much to do with Steve, but Steve knew he could count on me in New York. But again, that was my job. It's what I was supposed to do.
- [45:56]
A
Right. Do you remember where you were when you found out about Nick? Because you were still working, right? You working.
- [46:04]
B
Working with Nancy Ryder, who is a premiere of one of Michael J. Fox's films. We were up at Universal.
- [46:12]
A
So you were no longer working for.
- [46:14]
B
I was here.
- [46:14]
A
Okay.
- [46:15]
B
Because that was two years later.
- [46:16]
A
Okay.
- [46:18]
B
That's when you could drive. There was no citywalk, so you could drive. There was a road right in front of the Universal Theater.
- [46:25]
A
Yes.
- [46:26]
B
And that's where the red carpet was. And I think the. I'm not sure which movie? It was secret of my success or one of those Michael movies. And so Nancy represented Michael, therefore I represented Michael. And I was there, you know, at opening night and I tell people, but just pull up the ET footage. You could see me next to, standing next to Michael. Because when I got the phone call and it was from one of the busboys that I had hired, really. And first thing I said was me.
- [47:05]
A
Wow.
- [47:05]
B
That is the amount of contempt.
- [47:08]
A
Right.
- [47:08]
B
That I had for this man. Wow. You know, it's terrible to say anybody deserved to get murdered, of course. Oh, my God.
- [47:25]
A
So hold on. We really now have to go back to then.
- [47:31]
B
You didn't expect this from me.
- [47:34]
A
Well, you know, you and I are both from our little chat before we do. There is often a race. What was it? Between the mouth and the mind.
- [47:42]
B
Right. I always got in trouble. My brother would say to me, little mouth. My brother would say to me, your mouth and your brain had a race and your mouth one. So I'm winning. But I have always said anything I say about Chippendale is my life experience. So it is my life. It is what I lived through, it's what I went through. It may not be your experience, certainly not Candace's experience, definitely not mine, but it is my experience. So this is my story.
- [48:20]
A
Yeah.
- [48:20]
B
Because it is my life.
- [48:22]
A
Yeah.
- [48:22]
B
And if I'm going to tell this portion of my life, I'm going to be honest because I don't believe in lying.
- [48:33]
A
Right. And it's also your. Your right to do so. It's your experience. It's your life. You have no. Of course you are allowed to do that. So how did you wind up leaving then? Wait, did you want to say something else?
- [48:48]
B
Yeah. I'll tell you that again. I have to say, I really didn't have much to do with the LA club at all. I knew some of the dancers and when I did decide to come out here, I stayed at one of the houses. Oh, yeah. Did you see the waiters houses? Because the woman that I moved in with, she was a manager and she represented one of the guys, the Chippendales guy is an actor. And so I wound up staying in his apartment on his couch for the two weeks I was out here looking for a job and so on and so forth. So, yes, I did go to the club and I was very let down at the club. There was nothing like our club. But, you know, it kind of looked at like what they had in this show. It's funny because when they portrayed the New York club that's not what our club looked like at all.
- [49:40]
A
Oh, it's not like, at all, really.
- [49:43]
B
Our club, our show was in the round and it was Kiss and Tip. The club that they show is. There's a stage that's going on.
- [49:52]
A
That's right. That's right.
- [49:53]
B
La, they show. And the thing that bothered me the most in la, you know, the banisters that they had, that's what we had in New York. So you could put your drink there, it was a certain color, turquoise. They had it right for the la. New York. That's not what our club looked like. And even though they said, oh, it exploded in New York, they didn't show anything in New York. Like, they made New York. Like, it didn't matter.
- [50:23]
A
Yeah.
- [50:23]
B
Did Brooke Shields come in the club? Yes. So did, right? Yeah, they did.
- [50:27]
A
They had someone play Brooke Shields and.
- [50:30]
B
Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein, John Travel, John Travolta and Sylvester Stallone came in the club and they cast the movie. Perfect. With one of our waiters.
- [50:40]
A
Right?
- [50:40]
B
Absolutely. But. But New York was New York.
- [50:44]
A
Yeah.
- [50:45]
B
Here it wasn't as much and it was much smaller here. And so. And so I personally take issue with that because you're not giving New York any of its due. You're giving LA everything. Now. Did it start in la? Yes. But what they're showing.
- [51:06]
A
Right. I mean, they probably. And you would never.
- [51:08]
B
This. The guys that worked in that club, those dancers would never have been hired.
- [51:13]
A
Wow.
- [51:14]
B
Nope. Not one. Not any of them would have been hired at all.
- [51:17]
A
Wow. Really? Okay. This has been so much fun and there is so much more to talk about. So we are going to continue my conversation with Jay in our next episode. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.