Killer Thriller: You’re Not Crazy. You’re Being Gaslit.

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present: Killer Thriller

Episode: “You’re Not Crazy. You’re Being Gaslit.”

Date: March 29, 2026
Host: Elisa Donovan
Guest: Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, Clinical Psychologist & Narcissistic Abuse Expert

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Episode Overview

This episode of Killer Thriller aims to illuminate the often-unseen dynamics of narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, and coercive control frequently depicted in true crime stories and, as clinical psychologist Dr. Jamie Zuckerman explains, in real life. The conversation draws on recent crime-based media, like "Gaslit by My Husband" and "I Am Elizabeth Smart," to break down how control and manipulation manifest, why narcissists act as they do, how victims become entrapped, and—crucially—how to spot warning signs and get help.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Narcissism Explained Clinically

[02:03–03:26]

• Definition: Narcissism exists on a continuum. At the extreme is Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
  • “Characterized by intense grandiosity, lack of remorse, lack of empathy. Everything is about control and power.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 02:24)
• Manipulation & Awareness:
  • “They are aware of what they're doing...they don't care as long as their needs are met.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 03:07)
• Overlap with Crime:
  • Extreme narcissism is closely related, but not identical, to Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is often seen in violent criminals.

2. Control vs. Insecurity

[05:08–06:18]

• Narcissism is fundamentally about coercive control, though extreme insecurity often underlies it.
  • “Do most narcissists have extreme insecurities? Absolutely. [Their behavior] is to compensate or avoid it for themselves.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 06:05)

3. Narcissism vs. Self-Involvement

[06:18–07:33]

• Key difference: Remorse and accountability.
  • “Narcissists do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They will gaslight the crap out of you to make you feel like somehow this is your fault.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 07:38)

4. Gaslighting & Emotional Abuse: How It Begins

[07:58–11:52]

• Emotional abuse happens subtly and is “calculated.” Victims rarely recognize the moment manipulation begins.
  • “It’s like the weaving of a fabric. And then all of a sudden, you're in a sweater and you're like, wait—I didn't want to be wearing a sweater.” (Elisa Donovan, 09:33)
• Love bombing is a tactic for matching the victim’s needs then escalating control.
  • “Love bombing really is figuring out what that person's needs, wants, interests are and matching them exactly.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 10:00)

5. Isolation, Control, and Gaslighting in Action

[11:59–14:02]

• Manipulators systematically make a victim’s world smaller: quick commitments, merging finances, isolating from friends/family.
  • “You give up your independence without even realizing you're giving it.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 13:39)
• Gaslighting isn’t obvious at first: it starts with subtle confusion and targeting the victim’s sense of reality.

6. Recognizing Gaslighting

[14:09–16:49]

• Early warning signs: confusion, shame, self-doubt, and isolation.
  • “You start to doubt your sanity, which then turns into, 'Are you alright? Maybe you should see a psychologist. I'm really worried about you.'” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 15:24)
• Common gaslighting phrases: “You’re crazy,” “You always do this,” “You need help.”

7. What to Do If You Suspect Abuse

[16:49–18:53]

• Prepare before leaving: Confide in someone, plan for escape, gather important documents—safety is paramount.
  • “You will never feel ready to leave... You're going to have to do this and feel scared to death.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 17:12)
• It often takes an average of seven attempts to leave an abusive relationship.

8. Psychological Effects of Long-term Control

[19:05–23:51]

• In cases like Elizabeth Smart’s, survivors adapt out of self-preservation.
  • “There’s actual neurological changes that occur in your brain...that make it impossible to see otherwise.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 20:45)
• Fight, flight, or freeze: Under chronic abuse, freeze becomes dominant; the brain resets for survival.

9. The Turning Point: Regaining Control

[22:50–24:27]

• Seeing the abuser’s patterns is the “aha” moment.
  • “Once a survivor sees those patterns, you absolutely 100% cannot unsee it... that understanding of that blueprint is what actually gives you the ability to eventually leave.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 24:01)

10. Early Warning Signs in Less Extreme Relationships

[26:18–28:08]

• Watch for love bombing, boundary violations (not taking “no” or “I’m sick” for an answer), and controlling behaviors even early in relationships.

11. Charisma vs. Narcissism

[28:08–29:11]

• Not all charismatic or “performative” people are narcissists, but overlap is common.

12. Can Narcissists Change?

[32:03–33:53]

• True change is extremely rare. Narcissists may only mimic change to achieve their own ends.
  • “In all my years of practicing, I have never seen a narcissist change... Only times I have ever seen a narcissist change is when they're pretending.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 33:10)

13. Recovery and Moving Forward

[35:42–41:25]

• Check your gut: Fear or anxiety about setting boundaries may indicate trouble.
• Myth-busting: Narcissists target strong, successful people, not “weak” ones.
  • “Their goal is to watch someone fall. You can’t get all of that from somebody who starts out with low self-esteem.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 37:05)
• Recovery takes time, but survivors often emerge extraordinarily strong.
  • “I have never met people stronger in my life than people who have survived narcissistic abuse.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 40:12)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On accountability:
  “Narcissists do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They will gaslight the crap out of you to make you feel like somehow this is your fault and you're not sure how that is, but it is.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 07:38)
• On love bombing:
  “Love bombing really is figuring out what that person's needs, wants, interests are and matching them exactly...so you feel like you’re this puzzle piece.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 10:00)
• On escaping abuse:
  “You will never feel ready to leave... You're going to have to do this and feel scared to death.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 17:12)
• On recovery:
  “It breaks you down so much that you don't even know...what kind of ice cream you like.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 38:58)
• On the myth of weak victims:
  “They are attracted to very smart, successful, attractive, strong people...You can’t get all of that from someone who starts out with low self-esteem.” (Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, 37:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining Narcissism: 02:03–03:26
• Control vs. Insecurity: 05:08–06:18
• Gaslighting Tactics: 11:59–14:02
• Recognizing Gaslighting: 14:09–16:49
• How to Prepare to Leave: 16:49–18:53
• Neurological Effects & Freeze Response: 21:11–23:51
• Signs in Early Relationships: 26:18–28:08
• Can Narcissists Change?: 32:03–33:53
• Recovery & Empowerment: 38:33–41:25

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Actionable Takeaways

• Trust your gut. Pay attention to fear or anxiety around boundaries.
• Watch for patterns: Gaslighting, love bombing, and isolation are major red flags.
• Prepare before exiting abusive relationships. Gather support, documents, and an exit plan.
• Victims are often strong, not weak. Narcissists seek those with much to “take.”
• Recovery is possible. Survivors can regain and redefine their sense of self, sometimes emerging stronger than before.

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Guest resources: DrJamieZuckerman.com and YouTube channel “DoctorJamie Zuckerman”

This episode is a must-listen for anyone wanting to understand how subtle manipulation escalates to full-blown abuse. Dr. Zuckerman’s clinical expertise, paired with Elisa Donovan’s thoughtful questions and relatable insights, provides both clarity and hope for survivors and those seeking to help them.

Transcript

[Elisa Donovan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Guaranteed Human.

[Ana Navarro]

I'm Ana Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Ana Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the BLEEP is going on. Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein.

[Elisa Donovan]

In 2018, the Justice Department through we counted four presidential administrations failed these victims.

[Ana Navarro]

Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer Thriller with your host, Alisa Donovan.

[Elisa Donovan]

Hey, everyone. Elisa Donovan here. And this is Killer Thriller. Okay, so lately on this show, we've been diving into stories that are wild, shocking, and honestly, a little bit too real. From gaslit by my husband to I am Elizabeth Smart to Joe versus Carol, there is a pattern that keeps showing up again and again. And it's not just crime. It's control, it's manipulation, it's narcissism and gaslighting. And these are the kinds of people who can, they can charm you, confuse you and completely rewrite your reality, sometimes without you even realizing that it's happening. So today we're pulling back the curtain on all of that. We are joined by Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, a clinical psychologist and expert in narcissistic abuse. And we're going to break down what we're actually watching in these stories and how it shows up in real life. Because once you see it, you can't unsee it. Dr. Jamie, welcome to Killer Thriller.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Elisa Donovan]

So I have been noticing a pattern across all of these stories that we have been talking about recently, whether it's the criminals themselves or these just larger than life characters. And there definitely seems to be a thread of narcissism running through a lot of them. So what does it actually mean to be a narcissist from a clinical perspective?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah, no, that's a great question. So as we know from social media, it's being thrown all over everywhere. And people, on the one hand, it's great, people are learning about it. On the other hand, it's not so great because no one really knows what it is anymore. So from a clinical standpoint, a narcissist, when we talk about it on a continuum. So at the Very extreme. We have what's called narcissistic personality disorder. That is a pervasive personality style that infiltrates all aspects of that person's life. It's characterized by intense grandiosity. Right. It's characterized by an extreme lack of remorse, lack of. Lack of empathy. Everything is about control and power. So all of their behaviors, at the very end of the day, are all about obtaining control and power over other people. They're extremely manipulative. They are extremely controlling. And quite frankly, they are aware. And this is something I'm sure we'll get to, but they are aware of what they're doing. Short answer is no, they don't care as long as their needs are met.

[Elisa Donovan]

So why do so many criminals seem to have these traits?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So when we look at criminology, what we find is that in that cluster of personality disorders, particularly narcissistic personality disorder, we have something called antisocial personality disorder, which kind of, if you think of narcissism on a continuum. Right. And at the extreme end, we have that intense, malignant narcissistic personality style right up next to that, we tend to have antisocial personality disorder, which is what we think of criminology. Like, people that. That kill and do these horrific things, and they really bump up next to each other. They are different in certain respects, but they do overlap. Which is why you'll see at the extreme end of narcissism, it tends to go into that realm.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. So that's. It's more than the average person. You know, it makes somebody more like someone with narcissism. It makes them more likely to cross moral or legal lines.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Because the rules don't apply to them. Right. And so even if you take somebody, let's say, that's kind of in the middle of that continuum, somebody who has extreme narcissistic tendencies, they are very difficult to have relationships with. Whether that's a friend, a colleague, a family member, a spouse, they make relationships so difficult. They make you think you're going crazy. They make you think you're losing your mind. And it's so up and down, you don't know which end is up. That's really when we. When we see these dysfunctional relationships, what we're talking about, when you get into that extreme realm, like I'm talking about, you get into that. That kind of antisocial realm of things.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So how much of it. Of the narcissism is about control versus insecurity, Like a deep insecurity.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

So I'LL answer to it. So it's all about control. At the end of the day, everything they're doing is what we call coercive control. Coercing you into controlling you through whatever means necessary. They could love bomb you, they could threaten you, they could pretend to be your best friend. Whatever means works for you to give up your control over to them. So there's that. Right. But then in addition to that, it is about low esteem and insecurities. But I want to make it clear, all of us, at some point, worse than others, we all have low self esteem. Right. We all have insecurities. So, you know, none of us are free from that. So keeping that in mind, it's not automatic that somebody is going to develop narcissism or narcissist personality because they're insecure. Do most narcissists have extreme insecurities? Absolutely. And a lot of these are compensatory strategies to kind of make up for that or to avoid it for themselves.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right. So what's the. I think for a lot of people there. How, what is the. Is there a distinct difference between somebody who is just very self involved and somebody who is truly narcissistic?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Yes. So on the surface, the behaviors can look very similar. Right. So I can seem so self absorbed. You can seem so self absorbed. But when brought to my attention, let's say it's just a long pattern. I've had my entire existence because for whatever reason in my upbringing, that's just how I came to be. I modeled my parents behavior, whatever, or I did it because I had to survive childhood, whatever. If someone brings to my. If you bring to my attention, you're like, Jamie, you know what? Every time I try to talk to you about something important to me, you always make it about yourself. All you care about is yourself. And I say, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize I did that. Right. And I have some sense of remorse.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

It may be hard for me to change it because it's all I know. But I don't want to hurt you. Right. Whereas somebody who's narcissistic, it's always about them. Because you're just an object. You don't matter. Your feelings, your concerns, how I'm hurting you. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's neither here nor there for you because it gives you nothing. Wow.

[Elisa Donovan]

So there is a piece of just simple accountability or awareness.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Great work. Yes. They. I always tell people, narcissists do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They will gaslight the crap out of of you to make you feel like somehow this is your fault and you're not sure how that is, but it is. And so then you're apologizing when you don't even know what you're apologizing for.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right, right. So in Gaslit by my husband, the Morgan Metzer story, which I know you're familiar with, and I spoke with Jana, and I know you've spoken with Jenna as well, who. I couldn't be a bigger fan of her as a human being and as an actress. But what really stood out to me was how slowly the manipulation over time. So at what point does something like that cross into emotional abuse? And I know it might be hard

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

to love this question. I love this question because it's a very. It's a big misconception that a lot of people have. So I will say this in regards to the. To the movie. I'm very picky with the. I watch a ton of documentaries and movies about all this stuff. This was one of the most well done movies that got it right. And there's few. And this. They nailed it. And so. And for one of the reasons is exactly what you said, that it's this subtle, like, long coming into, you know, coming to be. Right. And the reason for that is because it's exactly how it works. It's. That's why when people come to me like, I can't believe I didn't see this. There was literally no way for you to see this. And before you even know what's going on, you're too sucked in. Right. So it is deliberate that it starts like this. There is no I shouldn't say, though. There's rarely a time when I'm working with people where they can say this was the moment. They'll tell me this was their breaking point to leave, but they never tell me this is the moment. It is so subtle. It is so calculated as you're talking,

[Elisa Donovan]

it's like I'm hearing it, like, almost like the weaving of a fabric. Right? And then all of a sudden, you're in a sweater and you're like, wait, yeah, I didn't want to be wearing a sweater.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

I actually may steal that from you because I love that I use the worst analogy. My analogy is that you have a in your kitchen and you just say, like, oh, whatever, I'll deal with it later. I'll do it. And then before you know it, you're standing, like, up to your waist and Water in your kitchen. And you don't know how you got here, but yours is much better, so I take yours.

[Elisa Donovan]

Thanks.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

But yeah, it's. But you know, make no mistake, it's on purpose that it's like this. It's very. It's very calculated. And so by the time you realize what's happening, there's so many things put in place to make it difficult for you to escape.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

And I say escape on purpose, not leave.

[Elisa Donovan]

Yep. Yeah. Because that is what it is. Right. It's not this question that people who really don't understand this at all are always saying, like, well, why, why didn't she just leave or why didn't you? It's like that's just a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of the entire error.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Well said. Yes.

[Elisa Donovan]

Scenario. So in this film and in Morgan's life, she slowly starts questioning her own reality. So what is actually happening psychologically when somebody gets to that point?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So it starts out, you know, people think love bombing is, you know, roses and calling all the time and confessing their undying love and you're my soulmate and all this, which it is and it can be, but love bombing really is figuring out what that person's needs, wants, interests are and matching them exactly on that. Right. So I could love camping. I don't, but I could love camping. Right. And I meet, and I meet somebody and they're like, you know, you know what I would love to do one day? I would love to go camping with you. And you're like, what? Right. So it's really kind of sneakily figuring out what these persons needs are, what's missed in their development with their family filling in all the holes. So you feel like you're this puzzle piece. And so when you're in that, you become blindsided. It's like a tidal wave. I've never had this before. I've never felt like this before. You're my soulmate and it's amazing. And who doesn't want that?

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. You feel seen the whole thing. Like, we want to be understood, we want to be seen and what we really care about.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

And so you don't see it then. And so what happens in that timeframe that's usually short, you make a lot of decisions that are very long term in terms of their impact, like moving in together very fast, joining bank accounts very fast. All of these things that seem normal and natural. Yeah, fast, but normal and natural. But the reason why the narcissist is doing it that way is so that they can continuously make your world smaller while gaining access to you from all areas. Finances, your housing, your cell phone, your car. I cannot tell you how many times I have had people say, oh, like, they want me to. They want me to work for them. So I'm going to leave and build my business with them. And you're like, ah, right, so, yeah, so a lot of that. Or they become their manager and they start doing other deals for them, and it just. Everything goes south very quickly. So that happens. And then things slowly start to shift, but not enough where you can say, oh, my God, I got to get out. It's things like, are you sure you really want to go to work today? I mean, like, your kid's homesick. They really want you, right? Like, you don't. You don't want to leave them with your mom. Or it could be, you know. You know your friend Jamie, I know you've been friends with her forever, but there's just something about her. I just. I can't put my finger on it. She never did anything to me, but I don't know if I trust her. So before you know it, they start to isolate you further and further. Or, you know, with finances is a big one. It'll be something like, no, no, no, sweetie, I'll do the taxes. Don't worry about it. You know how you are with math. Like, don't. Don't even worry about it. And so you give up your independence without even realizing you're giving it, right?

[Elisa Donovan]

Under the guises of something being like a gift or something being done. You're being taken care of in some way. I literally just in the three seconds we've been talking, I'm like, oh, three people that I've known in my life. One boyfriend, one manager of a friend, and one, the now ex wife of a friend. Like, thank goodness they are divorced now.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

That's exactly right.

[Elisa Donovan]

Really Diabolical.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

It's diabolical.

[Elisa Donovan]

So how. How do you know when someone is gaslighting you?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Okay, so you won't at first. So I like to make that very clear to people. You won't at first. What you'll feel is confusion. You'll feel shame, you'll feel doubt, you'll feel insecure, and you'll feel fearful like you're losing your mind. So it'll be subtle things like. And you know, for people listening that are like, oh, not everyone's bad is a narcissist. And you. It's bigger than that. It's more than that. So it's this person will deliberately hide your cell phone, make you look for it, make you think you've lost it, you're going crazy, or hide your keys or hit your car, and then blame you. I mean, all these little things. So these things start to happen, or delete something from your calendar, and you think you have plans. You swore you had plans, but then you look and you're like, wait, I have no plans. And little things like that. So you start to doubt your sanity, which then turns into, are you all right? Maybe you should see a psychologist. I'm really worried about you. You seem so stressed out. Like, maybe you should not go out as much. Maybe you should quit your job or let me take charge of this. And so before you know it, you start to believe this, because here you

[Elisa Donovan]

have this caring person, and they sound reasonable.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

They sound totally reasonable. Yeah. And so you start to feel embarrassed, so you start to limit your social network. And so what ends up happening is you ends up in this tiny, small bubble, and your reality has become so warped that you have to depend on your abuser to define reality for you, because without them, you are lost. And so that's what gaslighting really is.

[Elisa Donovan]

So are you just sort of mentioned a few. But are there any other kind of particular phrases or behaviors that people should immediately should, like set up a red flag?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Things like, you know, you're crazy, or you always do this, or, you know, something like, that's not me. Right. You show a picture to them about, you said you were out with your friends, but I saw you out with this one, and here's a picture. That's not me. They must have photoshopped it. You know how much they hate me. That kind of stuff.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

But again, the bigger ones that are kind of like the hallmarks of this is you're crazy, you're losing your mind, know you need help, or, you know, you take their phone and you start going through it and you find something, and then they throw it back on you and make you feel. And then before you know it, you're apologizing for going through your. Their phone because you're crazy and you're psycho. That kind of stuff. Right.

[Elisa Donovan]

So what do you do if you suspect that you are in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist or somebody who is gaslighting you? What do you actually do?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So this is where you have to be very careful and very safe because we know from the research that one, it takes about seven times on average for somebody to leave a relationship like this seven. Seven.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. It is not easy for numerous reasons. They're tied financially, they're tied with kids. And the family courts with custody do not favor the healthy parent, which is a whole other issue. And so they're really kind of locked in there. So you want to first make sure that you have somebody on the outside that you can confide in. And when you've been isolated for so long, that can be really difficult. So I always tell family and friends, whatever you do, as mad as you may get at them for going back and going back, just know that they need you at some point and just tell them, I love you, I'll be there for you. That's because at some point they're going to need you. Find somebody that you can confide in, somebody that you can trust. Know that you will never feel ready to leave. You will never, never feel super strong and ready to leave. You're going to have to do this and feel scared to death. You want to make sure that you have everything you possibly can lined up for your escape, meaning somebody to stay with access to funds, a prepaid calling card, a prepaid credit card, you know, have a to go bag in your car with your passport and your license, any important documents, your medicines, all of that kind of stuff just. Just to have it. Those are the practical things that people really need to have in place first before they even make any kind of psychological effort.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh my gosh. That's so. I mean, that's. It's a lot. It's like you really have to be ready and willing. I mean, I. That's understandable why it takes so long. I mean, and, and you know, I was going to ask why is it so hard for people to leave these relationships? But I mean, I think we just. You just.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

When. Particularly for women, but men too. But when you leave, that's the highest rate for physical violence is when you're leaving or if they hear that you're leaving. So you have to be really careful.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So in I am Elizabeth Smart, it's a very different situation where. But there was still control and manipulation by her kidnapper and abuser. So how much of this behavior, especially all the religious doctrine that he spews out, how much of that would you say is narcissism?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah, a significant chunk of it. Because if you look at the way in which he manipulates her and also his wife, you know that it's very, very much this intense coercive control, intense isolation from everybody in the world, basically. Right. So it's Just his doctrine, it's just his words that they have to exist by. So it's very much control based, it's very much power based. We see this over a lot in cult dynamics, you know, and it begs the question, you know, he thinks he's a prophet. When you're at that extreme. Yes. When you are that grandiose. Yeah. You, you at. People will believe that. They will believe that story. Now how much of his own preachings does he believe? Who knows? It? It may not necessarily matter. What matters is that he has isolated them so much, scared them so much that their ability to leave. It's like they don't even. It's not even an option. It becomes something they don't even think about or consider.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. It's not actually a part of reality. So.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Right.

[Elisa Donovan]

So do people in those situations like Elizabeth, they start to adapt in ways that outsiders, people like you and I, we might not understand.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Yes. And that's why it's so confusing for people who leave these relationships, whether it's an abusive intimate relationship, a family member, cult, whatever the case may be, it is so difficult for other people to say, like, why wouldn't you just leave? But what they're forgetting is that there's actual neurological changes that occur in your brain. Right. There's actual cognitive changes that occur in your brain that make it impossible to see otherwise.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So what, like in Elizabeth Smart's case, she was captive for nine months. So what happens psychologically when somebody is controlled for that long?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So one is your, your fight or flight response. Right. Which is what we have to innately keep us alive and survive. When you're in those types of environments, you kind of go into this freeze mode. Right. And it's a form of self protection. And so when you're in that freeze mode, you. You don't act. And so we see that a lot, unfortunately, in sexual assaults, Right. When people don't fight back, it's. Their body literally does what their body thinks is the best thing to do to protect them in that moment. And so when you have that response coupled with, if you leave, I'll kill you, your family doesn't love you, nobody's looking for you.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

You're so limited in your, in your response options. And then neurologically, your brain starts to reset itself for survival. It's all you can do. And so you're basically resetting yourself for survival. So your options become really only what your brain can allow you to think of. And.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

That's why people feel Stuck. And why it's so hard for other people to get it right.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. It literally changes the reality of your own reality.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

So what is the. Is that. Or is there a moment or a point where the. Those survival instincts really do take over, and then it changes how they respond? Like, what is that. Is that. Is that a moment or.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So. So when I work with people who are in these relationships, the. I would say that the biggest thing, the biggest light switch moment that. That I have with people is once they are able to. And this takes a long time, but once they're able to see the patterns. Because here's the one thing. The playbook of a narcissistic dynamic is so obvious. Once you see it, it is so textbook. And so for one of the most destructive styles out there, it really is the most predictable. So once a survivor sees those patterns, you absolutely 100% cannot unsee it. And so once they're able to not only predict the behavior, but know what it is and know why it's happening, and then they start to become untouchable, and they slowly start to. If this is them with the narcissist.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

And they slowly start to separate, allowing them to see it for what it is. And that's when you really want to start to make your moves at that point.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

It's. It's a very. In therapy, at least, it's a very aha moment for people because it gives them so much empowerment in that moment to know that, oh, my God, wait, this has nothing to do with me. This is a pattern. Okay? So I know when I do this, they're gonna do this. So I know how I need to respond to this. And before you know it, that understanding of that blueprint is what actually gives you the ability to eventually leave.

[Elisa Donovan]

I mean, that's what Elizabeth Smart actually did, where she manipulates him and says, I think God is telling us to go back to Utah and put it sort of into his hand that God's telling you to do this because you're the one that needs. And then he says, oh, you're right. That is what we should do. I mean, it's really incredible.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

You make them think it was their idea. You make them think that you need them. You make them think that you know that they're in control of you. Once you see that and you can twist it, then you can start to separate yourself.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. Foreign.

[Ana Navarro]

I'm Ana Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Ana Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world, because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the BLEEP is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.

[Elisa Donovan]

The Justice Department, through, I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims.

[Ana Navarro]

Listen to BLEEP with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elisa Donovan]

So are there warning signs even in. Even in less extreme situations, that control is escalating in a dangerous way?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So I like to start from. I call it preventative medicine. I like to start from the very beginning. So if you're on a date with somebody or you somebody in business, or you meet a new friend and you start to see the behaviors like love bombing. Right. So the nonstop calling, making plans, they seem to just get you so quickly. If you hear the word you're my soulmate, you run for the hills. I put that out as a blanket statement. You know, they don't even know your middle name, but yet somehow you're their soulmate. If you start doing things like you're planning your wedding and it's all cute and we're going to name our kids this, this, and this, and this is going to be our dog. And no, because that's not. You don't know anybody well enough to be their soulmate. Right. You don't know anyone yet. You don't know how they operate. You don't know how they argue. And so those are red flags from the very beginning. And the way I tell people to check is tell the person that you're sick one day. And I used to get so much crap for this. But tell the person you're sick and you need to cancel plans and see what their response is. Do they ghost you? Do they get angry at you? Do they show up at your house anyway with flowers and soup and say, I, you know, I'm here to make you feel better? How do they respond?

[Elisa Donovan]

Right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. Do they hear what you're saying, which is, I am not well, I'm going to rest today. I don't. I don't want to be together?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Right? Yes. See how they talk to waiters and waitresses? See how they talk to talk about their exes? Right. How do they talk about their family, do they have friends? Like all these little things that when things are so good, you may not really pay attention to.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So, okay, so thinking about someone like Joe, Exotic and Joe V. Carroll, so he is this person who's very charismatic in. In a. In a very unique sort of a way, but is also very controlling. And is that a common combination with narcissism?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. So within. Within narcissism, in that, again, that cluster of personality disorders, oftentimes we see this kind of histrionic, which is that very. Just, you know, as you said, just kind of this ridiculous. Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

Performative and demonstrative.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, we see that a lot with certain types of narcissists. Not all. But that's common. Yes. Now, does that automatically align with being controlling? No, it doesn't. It doesn't. But again, it's not uncommon to see those kind of. Those things overlap. But, but, but alone by itself doesn't mean that they're narcissistic. And a narcissist alone by themselves won't mean they're necessarily histrionic in that respect.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. Well, so how do you know when manipulation is happening versus just a difficult personality? Yes, sometimes I. My husband might say I'm a difficult personality.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Mine never says that.

[Elisa Donovan]

He'd be wrong, but he might, obviously.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

What do they mean? No, so. Here's the real difference in those, is that again, as I said before, we all grow up with patterns. Either patterns that we modeled from our caregivers or patterns that we did in opposition to our caregivers. But the way we are in our world up to a certain point really is based on our development. We do the things we do because they're patterns. We are experts at our patterns. We can do our patterns the best out of anybody else. And so we may be difficult, but not narcissistic. If just our patterns annoy other people or they just don't make for the easiest relationships. That doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It just may mean you have toxic interpersonal patterns and. Or you're using interpersonal patterns. It worked great for you growing up, and that's how you got through it, and that's how you survived. Fast forward into adulthood when that context is no longer present, but yet we're still using the same interpersonal styles, we're going to feel like we start to hit a wall. That's not narcissism. That's not. That's not that. Because the truth is, is if your husband sat you down and Said to you, listen, when you do this and this, you're hurting me, right? You're going to feel horrible. You're not going to want to do it. Will it be hard and difficult to change? Of course. But that's different. The purpose of you behaving the way you're behaving has nothing to do with gaining control, access, and manipulation. To him, it's just about, this is how you ask for your needs to be met, or this is all you know, and you can change that. With a narcissist, however, their actions, the function, or the underlying reasoning behind everything they do is always going to be about control, power, and dominance over another person. Always. It's just dressed up in various ways, brought to their attention. What are you talking about? You know, you're crazy. I didn't do that. That's not what I said. All the gaslighting type things, right? You need help, you know, you do this with everybody. This is why you have no friends. Like. Like, why would I hide your phone on purpose? Like, what is wrong with you? That kind of stuff. So they have no intention of changing, ever. They have no remorse, they have no empathy, and their goal is to control and manipulate you. Not because this is all they know, but when brought to their attention, they don't want to be like this anymore.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right. So I was going to ask, can narcissists actually love someone in a healthy way? But it sounds like that's a no.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

They can't. And, you know, I know there's people listening. I get this all the time. Like, you're a psychologist. How could you say this? That's so horrible. Everybody can change and you're stigmatizing them. I'm not. I'm just reporting the behaviors. And I can tell you that in all my years of practicing, I have, I. I have never seen a narcissist change. Only. Never. The only times I have ever seen a narcissist just change is when they're pretending they have changed because they need to get something from family court, or because they need to get out of some sort of trouble, or they're trying to reconcile with their ex because they want to get back in and control them. They. They have cognitive empathy, which means they know how they're supposed to feel and they know what they're supposed to think. So they're able to mimic it, but they don't feel it and they don't think it.

[Elisa Donovan]

It's still to get the result that they want.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yes. Yes.

[Elisa Donovan]

Oh, my God, that is so intense.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

They know. They know what they're doing. And that's the hardest pill for people to swallow because then we have to accept, oh my God, they're willingly evil. Right. Like, they're willingly hurting me. They're willingly abusing me. What? Like. And so I know a lot of people have a hard time with that. I understand why. But. But I. And I think if you spoke to my colleagues, they would, they would say the same thing, that the likelihood of somebody changing is. It's very slim. What you will find. You have self aware narcissists all the time that are on Instagram, social media, talking about what it's lifelike as a narcissist. And that's not because they've changed.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wait, is that real? Is that a thing?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

There was a whole, like New York, New York Times, I think it was. Or not New York Times, the New Yorker, one of them. There was this huge article with all these famous social media influencers, self aware narcissists. Now one or two of them, I follow, not because I think they've healed, but because hearing their perception of why they do what they do gives me insight as a psychologist.

[Elisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

They haven't changed. No.

[Elisa Donovan]

And then they're getting attention for it, which is just feeding the fire. Fueling the fire.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Exactly. Exact

[Elisa Donovan]

foreign.

[Ana Navarro]

I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, BLEEP with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the BLEEP is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.

[Elisa Donovan]

The Justice Department through, I think we counted four presidential administrations failed these victims.

[Ana Navarro]

Listen to BLEEP with Ana Navarro as part of the Michael Tura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elisa Donovan]

So for someone who's listening, who might be questioning their own relationship, what is one thing they should pay attention to right away?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Ask themselves what immediately comes up for them in their gut when they think about setting a boundary with this person.

[Elisa Donovan]

And if it's interesting, if it's one

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

of fear or your body just goes into this, like, feeling, or you get, you know, it's that overwhelming anxiety, that's something to pay attention to.

[Elisa Donovan]

That's such a Good. That is such a good gauge.

[Ana Navarro]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

And then you know what would happen if you went outside the general status quo that the narcissist set for you? I'm going to go out with my friends tonight. What happens, right? Do you come home and the door is locked? Do you come home and your clothes are outside? Do they call you non stop the whole entire night to ruin the night just because they don't have control over you anymore? Do they feign sickness? Like what happens? Wow. Yeah.

[Elisa Donovan]

So what's, what is one myth about narcissism or gaslighting that you really want

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

people to stop believing that narcissists are attracted to weak people? They are nuts. They are attracted to very smart, successful, attractive, strong people. And the reason for that, yeah, the reason for that is because. And this still to this day gives me chills on the back of my neck when I explain this. But, but a narcissist whole aim is to gain power and control over somebody else. Their primary goal is to suck this person dry of their entire sense of self until they are nothing. Which is why suicide rates are oddly higher within these types of dynamics. Because the person is just, just vaporized, so to speak. You can't get all of that from somebody who starts out with low self esteem. There's nowhere for them to fall to. And so they take everything that this person has that they want. They take everything, their success, their intelligence, their energy, all of it, and just suck them dry until there's nothing left. If they start with somebody that has low self esteem, well, what if they don't get anything from that? Their goal is to watch them fall. By the time the relationship has progressed or is at the end of the relationship now we see somebody who has no self esteem, no sense of self, no identity. But that's, that's because of the relationship. That wasn't the initial, right?

[Elisa Donovan]

That's not how they began.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

No. They are drawn towards people that are empathetic. Yes, absolutely. But they are not drawn to weak people or people with low self esteem. So I think that's a huge myth that people.

[Elisa Donovan]

So once someone has experienced this kind of relationship, then how do they rebuild that trust in themselves?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

It's really hard. It's a really long, long process because not only do they have to. You know, I think one of the saddest things I have ever heard from a patient after she got out of the relationship was she, you know, she said to me, she's like, I gotta be honest, she goes, I have no idea who I am. I feel like a shell of my former self, which we hear all the time. She goes, I don't even know what kind of ice cream I like.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Yeah. Like, it breaks you down so much that you don't even know. You don't even know what music you like. You don't know what kind of movies you like. You don't know what's your favorite color. You don't know how you like to dress. And so you have to totally rebuild yourself. And it's a really long process. And you doubt yourself and you don't trust people. And it really is a level of trauma that is really, really deep. And I don't think people. People understand that. And I think the worst. I don't know if it's worse. I guess it's the way you look at it. Those are intimate relationships. Think about growing up with a narcissistic parent. You never had a sense of identity. You were always told who to be. So if you cut ties from a narcissistic family member, now you're really starting from scratch. You don't have a pre existing you. So it depends on the relationship type. But I will say this. It is not all doom and gloom. It is very hard. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And once you get that empowerment and once you're able to figure out who you are and who you want to be and what you want to shift and you realize that that's totally in your control, then you really start to feel strong. And I have never met people stronger in my life than people who have survived narcissistic abuse. They are.

[Elisa Donovan]

I mean, that's so interesting because I've been so struck by the people that, like Elizabeth Smart and I interviewed Sarah Edmondson, who was in the Nexium cult. And, you know, people that have overcome these things and turned them into something powerful and meaning. It is like these women, especially those are the ones I've spoken to. They've all been women. Amanda Knox, you know, which is a different situation, but still gone through something so intensely tragic. And the power that these people have that is really. It's just a centered, grounded, extraordinary thing like that. I am just so impressed by.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

I could not agree more. I could not agree more. And. And I tell them when they get to that point, and you can look at this and feel so almost. I don't recognize that person, you know, and you'll get to that point and you'll know that you've healed. But I could not agree with you more. It's the strongest people I have ever encountered in my life.

[Elisa Donovan]

Wow. Okay. I mean, Dr. Jamie, this has been amazing. You. I have thoroughly enjoyed this. You are a wealth of knowledge and so articulate. And I feel like this is a really, while an incredibly challenging topic. You're. You talk about it in a way that's very digestible. Pieces that are, they're, they're applicable and, you know, understandable. So I really appreciate this and your time. So you can get in touch with Dr. Zuckerman. You could buy her books, learn about her coaching and therapy services on her website, DrJamie Zuckerman.com or visit her YouTube channel at DoctorJamie Zuckerman, it's J aime Jamie. Thank you so much for your time today. Is there anything else you want to say?

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

No, just thank you for talking about this topic. It's so important, especially with every. Everything being watered down about it. So I'm really, you know, just thankful for you for doing this. You'll help a lot of people. So thank you.

[Elisa Donovan]

Great. My pleasure. It's been wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Thank you.

[Ana Navarro]

I'm Ana Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the BLEEP is going on. Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018.

[Elisa Donovan]

The Justice Department through we counted four presidential administrations failed these victims.

[Ana Navarro]

Listen to BLEEP with Ana Navarro on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elisa Donovan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Dr. Jamie Zuckerman]

Guaranteed Human.