Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part - Mike Williams

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Episode: Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part – Mike Williams
Host: Emily Simpson (with Shane)
Release Date: March 19, 2026
[Main Case Covered:] The Disappearance & Murder of Mike Williams

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Episode Overview

This episode of “’Til Death Do Us Part,” hosted by Emily Simpson (with commentary from Shane), dives deep into the infamous Mike Williams case from Florida—a high school sweetheart marriage turned fatal, packed with betrayal, insurance fraud, alligator theories, and twists worthy of a true crime documentary. Drawing on coverage from Hulu’s “Mr. and Mrs. Murder,” Emily and Shane break down the timeline, key players, investigative failures, courtroom drama, and aftermath of one of the most jaw-dropping domestic crime cases of the past few decades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Williams and Winchester Couples (05:13–08:32)

• Background:
  • Mike Williams and Brian Winchester were best friends from high school in Tallahassee, Florida, each marrying their respective sweethearts, Denise and Kathy, around 1994.
  • Both couples settled nearby, had children roughly the same time, and appeared close-knit.
  • Career context: Mike was a real estate appraiser (making ~$200K/year in the ‘90s), while Brian sold insurance.

“You’ve got best friends, you’ve got affairs, you’ve got swamps and alligators and we’ve got life insurance policies.”
— Emily Simpson (05:41)

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2. The Disappearance: Duck Hunting at Lake Seminole (08:32–12:36)

• Incident: On Dec 16, 2000, Mike left for a pre-dawn duck hunting trip, telling Denise he’d be home for their anniversary trip.
• Discovery:
  • Mike went missing; his wife Denise alerted authorities.
  • His boat and truck were found, but not his body.
  • Initial theory: accidental drowning—possibly alligator related.
  • Shane points out: “Out of all those 100 bodies [from previous drownings], they had recovered all of them except for Mike’s.” (12:36)
• Suspicious details:
  • Only Mike’s body never found in Lake Seminole’s history.
  • Investigators called off the search after 44 days.
  • Community split on theories: runaway, accidental death, or eaten by alligators.

“My biggest fear is alligators...I always think I can live in Florida until I think about the amount of alligators that are in Florida.”
— Emily Simpson (13:18)

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3. The Alligator Theory Debunked (19:25–20:44)

• Scientific angle: Alligators hibernate in winter and do not feed (21:16). Local experts and Cheryl Williams (Mike’s mother) pushed back on the theory that alligators could have consumed Mike’s remains in December.
• Unlikely evidence:
  • Hunting gear, boots, and fishing license found SIX MONTHS later, appearing staged/not decayed.
  • Shane: “It’s almost insulting how bad they are at these crimes.” (23:19)

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4. Insurance, Family Dynamics & Early Suspicion (21:58–25:40)

• Life Insurance Suspicion:
  • Mike had taken out a $1.75M policy through Brian Winchester just six months prior.
  • Denise, desperate to collect, petitions for Mike to be declared dead despite no body.
• Cheryl Williams’ crusade:
  • Mike’s mother tirelessly advocated for reinvestigation, writing 2,600+ letters (24:31) and posting flyers.

“She was actively searching for answers...Never gave up.”
— Shane (24:56)

• Relationship collapse:
  • Denise cut Cheryl off and limited her access to her granddaughter.

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5. The Affair & Further Motive (25:40–29:40)

• Denise & Brian’s secret relationship:
  • They were having an affair since at least 1997.
  • Shortly after Mike is declared dead, Denise collects $1.75M and later marries Brian.
• Kathy's (Brian's ex-wife) role:
  • Suspected affair, received confirmation from a third party, and worked with police (“wore a wire around Brian to try and get him to confess” – 28:45).
• Planned double murder:
  • Emily speculates the original plan included killing both Mike and Kathy, but only Mike was targeted.

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6. Crumbling Alliances, Unraveling Lies (29:49–35:05)

• Denise & Brian’s Marriage Breakdown:
  • After years together (married 2005), Denise leaves Brian, allegedly due to his sex addiction (29:49).
• Kathy's long play:
  • Rebuilds a fake friendship with Denise, hoping for a confession and justice (30:19).

---

7. The Crime That Broke the Case (31:48–36:51)

• 2016: Kidnapping Plot:
  • Brian, desperate after Denise cuts him off, hides in her car with a gun and kidnaps her, demanding a reconciliation.
  • Denise calms him, promises silence, but immediately goes to the police after he lets her go.
• Evidence of pre-meditation:
  • Brian retrieved bleach and a tarp from Denise’s trunk (33:14–33:18)—signs he was contemplating murder.
• Brian’s Arrest & Immunity Deal:
  • Convicted for kidnapping; gets 20 years.
  • Trades full immunity for Mike’s murder and reveals location/details in exchange for leading police to the body.
  • Emily notes a legal goof in his immunity paperwork (“they forgot to switch out Wade Wilson’s name with Brian Winchester”—37:06).

“This guy got 20 years and that’s it for the kidnapping...and complete immunity for a murder that he committed.”
— Emily Simpson (36:51)

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8. The Confession & Recovery of Mike’s Remains (42:40–47:11)

• How the murder happened:
  • Brian pushed Mike into the lake, hoping he would drown due to heavy waders (43:13). Mike survived, clinging to a stump.
  • Brian panicked and shot Mike in the face (44:03), dragged his body out, transported, and buried him near Car Lake (47:11).
  • The failed drowning didn’t fit the original plan—Brian had to improvise to avoid being caught.
  • The original investigation missed key forensic opportunities by not treating the scene as a homicide.
• Remains found: Bones and some clothing items found nearly two decades later.

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9. Aftermath, Convictions & Legacy (47:21–54:13)

• Legal Outcomes:
  • In 2018, Denise is arrested and found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and accessory after the fact (but first-degree murder overturned on appeal—48:38).
  • Denise receives 30 years in prison; Brian serves 20 years (for kidnapping, due to his immunity for the murder itself).
  • No one is technically convicted for the murder charge due to the immunity deal.
• Mike’s daughter, Ansley Williams:
  • Receives her father’s estate/insurance; can’t use funds for her mother’s defense. Remains supportive of Denise.
  • Emily: “She stands by her mom...saying that she didn’t believe her mom was involved at all.” (52:03)
• Takeaway for law enforcement:
  • Shane: “Next time someone goes missing in a swamp, let’s not assume it’s just a missing [person]...Let’s treat it like a crime scene.” (50:13)
• Host’s closing thoughts:
  • “Divorce is always the best option. Over death.” (54:05–54:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The irony is Brian is serving a 20 year sentence just for kidnapping, while Denise is in jail for 30 years for conspiracy. Where are Mike and Denise’s daughter? Her name is Ansley. Where is she now?”
  — Emily Simpson (50:23)

• “Are you really a best friend if you murder him?”
  — Shane (28:29)

• “This guy literally shot him in the face...then he shows up for Christmas dinner at Granny’s house and he’s tired. Yeah, that’s why he showed up late, because he had a lot to do.”
  — Emily Simpson (46:17)

• “They never treated that area like a crime scene...so they never investigated it forensically.”
  — Emily Simpson (45:21)

• “She probably knew the daughter-in-law did it.”
  — Shane (24:59)

• “It's got all the things. It’s got, you know, romance...affairs, alligators, insurance money, sex addicts, kidnapping, duck hunting. It's got it all.”
  — Emily Simpson (53:21–53:31)

---

Key Timestamps

• 05:13 — Introduction to the Mike Williams case; background on key couples
• 08:32 — The morning of Mike’s disappearance; timeline breakdown
• 12:36 — Discussion of the missing body/alligator theory
• 19:25 — Forensic improbability of alligator involvement
• 21:58 — Insurance policy taken out via Brian
• 24:31 — Cheryl Williams’ letter-writing campaign
• 25:40 — Denise’s push for life insurance payout
• 28:45 — Kathy’s undercover cooperation with police
• 31:48 — The 2016 kidnapping & breaking of the case
• 36:51 — Brian’s immunity deal breakdown
• 42:40 — Brian’s confession of the actual murder
• 47:21 — Remains found, trial, and final convictions
• 50:13 — Lessons for law enforcement
• 53:21 — Emily’s summary: “It’s got all the things...duck hunting”

---

Tone & Highlights

• The hosts adopt a conversational, darkly humorous tone—mixing true crime detail with personal banter.
• Shane and Emily riff on the absurdities of the case, the legal system’s quirks, and the brazenly sloppy criminal attempts.
• Special empathy is reserved for Cheryl Williams, Mike’s relentless mother.
• The story is presented not just as a crime, but as a cautionary tale about trust, friendship, and procedural failures.

---

Final note:
The hosts sign off by reiterating their standing relationship advice:

“Divorce is always the best option. Over death.”
—Emily & Shane (54:05–54:13)

---

Transcript

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This podcast is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Pod Meats World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic mealtime can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true. They can be wildly picky about new foods, and with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids. Ideal for ages 8 months to 8 years, fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep saf knowing your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly, which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu. From soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get older. Nurture Life does the cooking. They deliver it straight to your door. And then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo code pod. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com

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[Emily Simpson]

hi guys. Welcome to an episode of Till Death Do Us Part. I'll be your host, Emily Simpson with Shane. Okay, so today we are talking about this is. I actually knew this story before, I think because I had seen it probably on 2020 or something like that. So, so I was familiar with it. But it is a series On Hulu called Mr. And Mrs. Murder. And when I started watching it the other day, I was like, oh, I know this story. I have seen this before. So it's very interesting. We're going to talk about high school friends, seems to be a theme here, who end up not being friends anymore. So the victim's name is Mike Williams. He was a 31 year old real estate appraiser from Tallahassee, Florida. And he disappeared on December 16 of 2000 after leaving for a duck hunting trip at Lake Seminole. We're talking about Florida. All right, so geographically we are now in Florida. His boat and some hunting gear were found and authorities initially ruled the case an accidental drowning. Though his body was never recovered. Mike's mother spent years pushing officials to reinvestigate, believing his death was suspicious. The case took a major turn years later when Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, who had married Mike's widow Denise, confessed to killing him and led investigators to his remains. Brian Winchester said he committed the murder at Denise's request so they could be together and benefit from a large life insurance payout. So we've got all the key players. We've got best friends, we've got affairs, we've got swamps and alligators and we've got life insurance policies. So. So this is in the 90s. So Mike Williams marries his high school sweetheart, Denise. And this is in 1994. So you got this. You got Mike and Denise. Okay.

[Shane]

You graduated?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, I graduated from high school in 1994.

[Shane]

Yes.

[Emily Simpson]

Thank you for reminding everyone how old I am. Yes. Wait, you graduated before I did 93? Yes. So you're older than I am.

[Shane]

That's why you should listen to me.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, okay, sir. That same year, their best friends from high school, Brian and Kathy, also got married. So we have Brian and Kathy and we have Mike and Denise. Do you See how I'm laying this out for you? Because I know you're going to be like, wait, who's Brian?

[Shane]

No, I'm paying attention. There's two couples.

[Emily Simpson]

Two couples.

[Shane]

High school sweethearts.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

Get married.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

And they're all friends.

[Emily Simpson]

What state are we in?

[Shane]

Florida.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. All right, so both couples settle in Tallahassee, Florida, near where they grew up. Brian and Kathy welcome a son, and Denise and Mike welcome their daughter just nine months later. So both couples have.

[Shane]

Wow, they're really following the same timeline.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. Mike works as a real estate appraiser, and his best friend Brian does mortgages. No. Does insurance.

[Shane]

Oh.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, that's a key, key fact right there. You need to remember a little foreshadowing. Right. Also, you know what I read? I read that Mike, when he was working as a real estate appraiser, and this is in the 90s, that he was making 200,000 a year, which was pretty good.

[Shane]

Yeah, it's still pretty good.

[Emily Simpson]

It's still pretty good, but I'm talking about in the 90s. And then, you know, right out of school. And so he was doing well.

[Shane]

Yeah. Well, I question his business practices now.

[Emily Simpson]

No. He gets murdered.

[Shane]

Oh, is this victim?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

Okay, so the victim is a real estate agent?

[Emily Simpson]

No, real estate appraiser.

[Shane]

Appraiser. Oh, he's making $200,000 a year as appraiser. I thought the Insurance was making 200.

[Emily Simpson]

No, no.

[Shane]

Well, this makes sense.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Because the market.

[Shane]

The market. Everyone wanted their house appraised.

[Emily Simpson]

Is this in the early 2000s?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

You remember this?

[Shane]

No, I remember the market. The real estate market, it was booming in 2000.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Wait, why do you know this? Tell me.

[Shane]

Because I pay attention to the housing market. I don't know. I'm just saying the housing market was booming.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay?

[Shane]

So, yeah, real estate appraiser was much needed. All over the place. Making good money. That's all I was getting.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And his.

[Shane]

That's it.

[Emily Simpson]

The company he worked for, they also interview them in this Hulu series, and they talk about what a hard worker he was.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Like, he was always at work. He would go home and spend time with his wife and kid and then go back to work like he was the hardest working person. Like, he had a very good work ethic. And he made. He made. He made very good money. So anyway, we get to December 16th of 2000. Then this is Christmas time. This is when Mike disappears. So on December 16, Mike leaves home before dawn to go duck hunting at Lake Seminole. He tells Denise that's His wife that he plans to return around noon so that they can go on their annual trip to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary. So they're supposed to go on a trip.

[Shane]

Okay. After his duck hunting.

[Emily Simpson]

After he's done duck hunting. Okay. Meanwhile, at the Winchester house. So now we're going over to the other couple. Kathy wakes up to find Brian is not there and he did not tell her where he was going. You know these men that disappear and their wives don't know where they are. And then their wives think it's normal. It makes me realize that you're not so bad sometimes.

[Shane]

That's why we do the true crime stuff.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. I'm like, I really, like, I really focusing on this true crime. I'm like, Shane is not so bad at all because she talks about how he goes duck hunting all the time and he just goes whenever he wants and he just leaves all the time. And like, she doesn't even know where he is or where he's going. And that's just what he does. I would. If you. If I woke up and you weren't home, I would be on a rampage.

[Shane]

Sometimes I'm home and you go on a rampage.

[Emily Simpson]

All right. So then Mike does not come home that day. And Denise reports that he's missing at the same time. Brian shows up to his in laws much later than he was supposed to. So his wife Kathy talks about how they always go. She calls it her granny's farm in Georgia, I think it's Georgia is where they went to. So she took the son and drove to the farm to spend time with her family. It's Christmas time. Right. And she doesn't know where Brian is. And he's supposed to meet them there, but he shows up hours later and he's exhausted. And it shows all these photos of him like asleep on the couch. And like. And you're in your mind, you're thinking she just documented, like she took photos of this guy. He just, you know, we know he murdered his best friend.

[Shane]

And she knows.

[Emily Simpson]

She doesn't know that.

[Shane]

Okay?

[Emily Simpson]

She doesn't know what happened. But I'm saying now look, like where we are present day, looking at these photos, he's like asleep on the couch. It's like he's tired. He had quite a morning that morning. Anyway, all right. He claimed that he had gone hunting alone that day. Authorities launch a search effort at Lake Seminole to find Mike. So then later that night, his boat is discovered. The search team finds Mike's abandoned boat and truck at the lake. But they cannot Find the body. So from Lake Seminoles establishment in 1957. This is very interesting to me to present time, just over a hundred people had drowned in the lake. And out of all those 100 bodies, they had recovered all of them except for Mike's. So his is the only body that they couldn't recover from this area of

[Shane]

the lake because it wasn't in the lake.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, it's very interesting. Yes. So they investigate. Well, they search for 44 days and then after 44 days, the search was called off. Mike Williams was listed as still missing, but theories swirled that he'd either run off or fallen overboard and was eaten by an alligator. So there were a lot of people that were saying the reason that his body wasn't recovered was because this. This area of. We're talking about Florida. Florida. I always think I can live in Florida until I think about the amount of alligators that are in Florida. And then I decide I can't live in Florida because I don't know if you know this, but I. I've told you this many times. My biggest fear is alligators. And I have nightmares about alligators.

[Shane]

Yeah, it shouldn't be right because we don't have any alligators.

[Emily Simpson]

I know, but I don't know why, but ever. I've just.

[Shane]

Plus, if an alligator chase you, you know what you can do?

[Emily Simpson]

Climb a tree.

[Shane]

Just go on a table.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but they're not. No, but in my nightmares, when I have nightmares about alligators, there's no tables in my nightmare, so there's nowhere for me to go.

[Shane]

My fear would be a bear.

[Emily Simpson]

I know you have a very, very.

[Shane]

No, no, I don't. I don't run around scared of the bears. I'm just saying if a bear approached me, that would be my nightmare. Because you can't jump on a table, you can't outrun a bear, you can't climb a tree. No, the only thing you can do if you're lucky is you go downhill because their rear legs are longer than their front legs and so they can't just run downhill.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, they would do. They would tumble.

[Shane]

Something would happen. But I. I'm not banking on that as my escape route. If I see a bear, what are you gonna do? I'm gonna look for the nearest hill. What am I gonna do? We're supposed to play dead.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. That's hard, though.

[Shane]

Yeah, I've tried that with you. It doesn't work.

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[Shane]

Wake up. You get mad at me.

[Emily Simpson]

Wait, there's some. There's some. If it's brown versus black. There's like a saying, if it's brown, you're supposed to, like, lay down. Black, you're supposed to, like, attack or something. I don't know. I need to get that right.

[Shane]

Yeah, you need to get that right, because you need to find out before you approach a bear.

[Emily Simpson]

No, I need to figure that out. But I do think it's, like, brown, like, lay down and black attack. I think it's something like that. That's how you're supposed to remember it. I don't know. Maybe you should all look that up.

[Shane]

Yeah, I'm not going to trust you on that one.

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[Danielle Fishel]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Emily Simpson]

So good.

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Your bill, ladies.

[Emily Simpson]

I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly. You'll be silly.

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[Emily Simpson]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot.

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[Danielle Fishel]

This podcast is sponsored by Nurture Life. Hey, it's Danielle Fishel from Podmeats World. And as a mom to two growing boys, I know how chaotic mealtime can get. No matter how confident I am with what I'm serving them, my kids will always find a way to call the meal gross or stinky or yuck. It's true. They can be wildly picky about new foods. And with my busy schedule, I don't have the time to become America's next Top Chef. And so that's why I love Nurture Life. It's a meal delivery service that actually caters to kids. Ideal for ages 8 months to 8 years, fully cooked and ready to serve in just one minute. It's the problem solver I've been praying for. It's the top meal delivery service for babies, toddlers and kids. And everything is designed by registered dietitians so you can sleep saf knowing Your kids are getting the protein, veggies and nutrients they need while still eating favorites like Mac and cheese, spaghetti and meatballs and so much more. Plus, it's allergy friendly, which we know is clutch. And when it comes to options, Nurture Life has you covered. There's more than 50 nutritious meals and snacks on their menu. From soft finger foods for babies and toddlers to balanced kids meals for when they get older. Nurture Life does the cooking. They deliver it straight to your door. And then you might even have time to eat something for yourself. So now is the time to head to nurturelife.com pod and use code pod for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's right, 50% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's nurturelife.com pod and make sure you use promo code pod. Even if you aren't a parent with young kids, you might have parent friends who struggle with mealtime. Make sure to share our Code Pod with them. Remember, put your little ones first with healthy meals from Nurture Life. That website one more time is nurturelife.com

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your schedule sounds like this.

[Emily Simpson]

Are you kidding me?

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An oil change is the last thing you have time for, so drive into Take five and let our techs change your oil, check your tires, top off your fluids and have you back on the road pit stop fast. All while you stay in your car. No putting your entire schedule on hold. No upsells, no problem. So you can get back to your to do list or not. Find your nearest [e-mail]. Take five. The stay in your car. 10 minute oil change.

[Emily Simpson]

After 44 days, the search was called off. And again, here was the thing about the alligator. They said that a lot of people were like, well, you. The body wasn't found because the alligators probably consumed him. Right. But you're talking about a guy that's like a hundred and some sixty, seventy pounds and he's five foot ten. Like he's a, He's a decent sized guy. He's bigger than you. And decent size is bigger than size. Bigger than you.

[Shane]

I'm duffel bag size.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes, that's right. We determine that and they don't fight. There's no other parts found. Like if a. I guess the chance, like the chances of an alligator consuming like an entire human is not normal.

[Shane]

And I don't know if there's a bunch of alligators. They might, I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

But anyway, there were like, no, there was nothing found. Like no remnants.

[Shane]

Yeah, yeah. They find 100 other bodies.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And then they were saying that it doesn't seem plausible that it could have been an alligator because this was during the winter time. Because we're talking about December. Right. Because this is the Christmas time. Yeah, it's December in Florida and temperatures get very low and especially at night. And if you know anything about alligators, they're actually hibernating during this time and they're not feeding. So they were saying it's not even,

[Shane]

I guess scientifically, well, it's even less likely.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. That an alligator consumed him. So again, where is the body? So that's where we're at with that. Then this is interesting because then six months later after this search. Right. So they search for 44 days. They can't find him, they can't find the body. They find nothing. They did find his truck and they found the boat. Then six months later, all of a sudden, I believe it was like a jacket of his and his waiter boots and his fishing license appear in the water. So like those are all found. But the interesting thing about what they found in the water is that the waiter boots didn't have like alligator bites in them. And I believe like his fishing license didn't really. It didn't seem like it had been there for six months. Like it wasn't decaying.

[Shane]

Yeah. What else was found? A shirt.

[Emily Simpson]

I think it's jacket. Jacket was found and his fishing license and his waiter boots. But they didn't look like they had been there the amount of time that they should have been there. But after they were found, his wife Denise. Then I believe. I don't know what it is you do. Petition that he be declared dead. Right. Because, yeah, at this point, he's just a missing person.

[Shane]

Like, can we just all agree he's dead?

[Emily Simpson]

She needs him declared debt.

[Orderly Meds Announcer]

Right.

[Shane]

She needs her insurance money.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So some of Mike's hunting gear surfaces in the lake. This is six months after his disappearance, including waiters and a hunting jacket and also his license. Still no traces of human remains are anywhere to be found because they dropped

[Shane]

that in the ocean or what is it, the swamp? Yeah, they dumped that in there. And then she's like, okay, now can I get my insurance money?

[Emily Simpson]

I know. You know what? In the documentary, he never admits to that, and there isn't any conclusion on that. But that is my thought. My thought is, they search for this guy for 44 days. There's some theories that alligators ate him, but not everybody is, like, buying that theory. His mother, Cheryl, is very vocal about. She thinks that he's still alive or there's foul play or, like, she's all over the place. And then you've got the widow who needs him to be declared dead. So then six months later, that miraculously, like, this fishing license and. And jacket all ends up in the lake. All I can picture is, like, the widow Denise driving at night and, like, throwing stuff into the lake.

[Shane]

The fishing license was. Because she had to put a name to it.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, she's like, jacket. No, the fishing license, totally. Right.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

It's like, well, we have to make sure that they know that it hit. It's his. So throw his fishing license in there, too.

[Shane]

It's almost insulting how bad they are at these crimes, like what kind of people they think we are.

[Emily Simpson]

So authorities determined that Mike most likely drowned during the hunting trip. His body has never been recovered. Denise pushes for a petition for him to be declared dead. A judge declares him dead.

[Shane]

She didn't push a petition to declare him dead. She pushed a petition to get her insurance money.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Okay, so then after he's declared dead, then she gets, like, 1.75 million in insurance proceeds, so. But she needed him to be declared dead. Right.

[Shane]

She should have just confessed he's dead. Trust me, I killed him.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but then she won't get her insurance money. She needs that 1.75 million. All right. Mike's mother pushes for answers. So Mike's mother's name is Cheryl Williams, and she refuses to believe that her son died in an accident. For years, she writes letters to the Governor of Florida urging officials to reinvestigate the case. But then they were never opened. They would just send them to, like, the Florida department of, like, investigations or something.

[Shane]

Letters to Santa go. Yeah, they're just like the tooth fairy.

[Emily Simpson]

No. So, like, the governor's office never opened them. They were just taking them and then sending them to, like, another investigative department or something.

[Shane]

That's great.

[Emily Simpson]

She even contacted wildlife experts who told her that alligators do not feed in cold winter months. In total, she sends more than 2600 letters demanding further inquiry. She also made posters with his picture and, like, she would hang them up, you know, on the street.

[Orderly Meds Announcer]

And.

[Emily Simpson]

And she. I talk about a mother.

[Shane]

Yeah. She was. She was actively searching for answers.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes.

[Shane]

Giving in on the.

[Emily Simpson]

Never gave up.

[Shane]

She probably knew the daughter in law did it.

[Emily Simpson]

I think she was suspicious that the daughter in law was involved somehow. And they. They did not have a relationship. Like, once Mike went missing, Denise stopped talking.

[Shane]

There you go. Wouldn't it?

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah. And she also. Denise also didn't allow Cheryl to have a relationship with. With their daughter, so she just cut her out completely. So not only did Cheryl lose her son, but she also lost any ties to her granddaughter as well. Investigators later note that Mike had taken out a $1.75 million life insurance policy. But the policy was taken out through his best friend, Brian Winchester.

[Shane]

And when was it taken out?

[Emily Simpson]

It was taken out. Missing six months before his disappearance. While the search was still going on, Denise was filing a claim against his life insurance. She was ready to accept the fact that he was dead. But according to Florida law, since there was no proof Mike had died, he would not be declared dead for five years. Denise did not want to wait that long to collect on Mike's life insurance, so her attorney went to work. It only took six months for her to collect the money. The judge ruled the cause of death accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole. Body has not yet been recovered. And I'm telling you, the fact that they. They made that decision, that the judge made that decision, I'm sure was because of the. The license and the coat and the waiters. Like, that was probably the pivotal evidence that they needed.

[Shane]

Well, for. To determine of insurance. That's what they needed.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. Well, to declare him dead.

[Shane]

Yeah. For purposes of insurance.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, right. Then Denise marries Brian Winchester, Mike's best friend. Brian Winchester moves into the house.

[Shane]

Wait, where is Winchester's wife?

[Emily Simpson]

They. They end up getting divorced. And they. They touch on that a little bit. But he was having problems with his wife, Kathy. And she suspected that he was having an affair with Denise. And I believe she questioned him about it. And then someone wrote her a letter. It was. It's very complicated, but Denise was dating some other guy or going out with some other guy named Chuck. And then Brian became very jealous that she was going out with this guy named Chuck. And he, like, showed up while they were on a date. Chuck ended up writing a letter to Kathy saying that he witnessed this weird scene between Brian and Denise and that he thinks they're having an affair and he knows Brian is married. Anyway. It's very convoluted. There's a lot of, like, details in this whole scenario. But he puts Kathy on notice that Brian is having an affair with Denise.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

And I think she always suspected it, but Brian would deny it. But then when she got that letter of this guy confirming it, then she. She filed for divorce.

[Shane]

Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Then he didn't want to get divorced. I don't know why he wants to be with Denise.

[Shane]

Why didn't he kill her?

[Emily Simpson]

I. I think the plan originally was to kill her too. I think they discussed that. I think the original plan was to. For both of them to drowned or something like that. But they couldn't. I guess they couldn't. They couldn't make that.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Work.

[Shane]

She didn't have a fishing license.

[Emily Simpson]

I guess not. So. So they had to go with just getting rid of Mike so that they could be together. So. So then in 2005, this is now, Denise and Brian get married. And we know that Brian is Mike's best friend. And Brian is also. Does life insurance. And Brian is also.

[Shane]

Are you really a best friend if you murder him?

[Emily Simpson]

I. Yeah, I don't know.

[Shane]

I think that relationship.

[Emily Simpson]

Brian later reveals that he and Denise had been having an affair since 1997. So they'd been having an affair.

[Shane]

DNA test on these babies, right?

[Emily Simpson]

I. Yeah, I don't know whose babies who at this point, I don't know. Brian's ex wife, Kathy was also Denise's best friend. Kathy is determined to get justice for Mike. So she cooperates with police when necessary, speaking with Cheryl Williams on her theories, and even wearing a wire around Brian to try and get him to confess. She also had conversations with Denise on the phone, and I believe the phone calls were recorded. I think she also wore a wire when she had conversations with Denise. So Kathy was very invested in getting answers and getting justice for Mike. So then we get to 2012. This is seven years after their wedding. So Denise and Brian separate. I read or heard or maybe they even said it in the documentary. I don't remember. But allegedly, or apparently, I don't know which way it goes, but Brian Winchester had a sex addiction problem, and so that was the reason Denise wanted to get divorced. So she wanted to leave him. After all, they've been having an affair since 1997. They were going to kill.

[Shane]

That's the deal breaker.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Her. She's like, you know what this sex addiction is just. Yeah, I just can't deal with that.

[Shane]

I mean, if you want to go out and murder more people, we can do that. But if you're gonna be. If you're staring at your computer, then, yeah, it's gonna be bad for a relationship.

[Emily Simpson]

In the years leading up to this,

[Shane]

Brian, which would you rather me have,

[Emily Simpson]

a murder problem or a sex addiction?

[Shane]

Well, neither.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, we'll go with sex addiction.

[Shane]

They're both bad.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, if I have. If I have to pick. In the years leading up to this, Brian's ex wife, Kathy, started to rebuild a friendship with Denise in hopes of driving her and Brian apart. She was successful. I love Kathy and all of this. Kathy is just like. Kathy's just like. She's in it for the long term. She's like, I'm gonna build a relationship with this woman. I'm gonna pretend to be her friend. I'm gonna get her on my good side. I'm gonna get her to confess and, like, think that we're friends. I mean, she was in it because that's. That takes a long time. That isn't just, like, wearing a wire and, like, trying to get someone to have a conversation. Like, she was committed to building a relationship with this woman in hopes that she would get a confession. Right. Confessing friends say Brian severely struggled with the breakup. But Denise, on the other hand, looked like she was living her best life. So this is what this is actually. So. And then in 2016, this is the crime that leads to the breakthrough in this case. So I'm telling you, this case, this murder of Brian Williams would have never have been solved if this did not occur in 2016. Okay, so we know that Denise wants to divorce Brian because he's a sex addict. Right. Or she's just done with him or she's over him or whatever. She wants to move on. He doesn't want to get divorced, probably because he's like, you know, then she's gonna go tell about what happened. I'm sure he's.

[Shane]

And he can't take out a life insurance policy if she's Like. Like an ex wife, probably.

[Emily Simpson]

So he's like, right, so I need

[Shane]

to pull out life insurance policies. I'm going to kill you. Don't divorce me.

[Emily Simpson]

So he's trying to talk to her, he's trying to call her, he's trying to text her, and she blocked him. She won't respond to anything. So she basically pushes him over the edge. So in 2016, Brian hides inside Denise's car, and then when she gets into the car, he jumps out from behind in the back seat with a gun, and he confronts her. And she's driving around. He makes her drive around. He tells her which way to go. She pulls into a CVS parking lot, and she eventually talks him down. So he kidnaps her, he hides in her car, puts a gun to her head, makes her drive around. Then they pull into a CVS parking lot, and she talks him down, and she gets him to withdraw or. Or calm down or whatever by promising that she will not tell the police what happened.

[Shane]

Okay?

[Emily Simpson]

Then as soon as she gets him out of her vehicle and she calms him down and she promises she won't tell the police, everything's going to be fine. I'm not going to say anything.

[Shane]

She's a little convincing of that, right?

[Emily Simpson]

She drives straight to the police station and reports him. She drives him back to his car, and while he's back at his car, he retrieves supplies from Denise's trunk. Like he had bleach. And a plastic tarp in her trunk.

[TurboTax Announcer]

Drunk.

[Emily Simpson]

Like. So there was.

[Shane]

He had a murder. He was willing to kill her.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he was gonna kill her. He had a guy.

[Shane]

She really convinced him, right?

[Emily Simpson]

He had a gun. He hid in her car. He has. What is the bleach for?

[Shane]

Well, probably they think it's gonna clean.

[Emily Simpson]

Says that to clean up the blood. Like, if he shoots her, then he.

[Shane]

I don't. I don't.

[Emily Simpson]

He's gonna clean the vehicle with bleach.

[Shane]

I don't know, because. And you can't clean clothes with bleach. It would just dye it and stuff, right? And it would. It would burn the color.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know. You know what? You know who he needs to reach out to? It is the woman in the suitcase murder that managed to dismember her husband.

[Shane]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Without it and without a drug of blood or forensic evidence anywhere in that apartment, not one drop. That's who he needs to consult with. Anyway, so Denise goes straight to the police and reports the incident. So then Brian Winchester is arrested and charged with armed kidnapping and Assault. And Denise asked the court to give him a life sentence. Of course she does. She doesn't need him out roaming around. Brian is sentenced to 20 years in prison. At this time, Denise asked her friend Kathy to tell Brian's father to relate to Brian in prison that she isn't talking. Kathy immediately knows that's in reference to Mike. So that's what happens. So Denise sends a message to Brian while he's in prison saying that she isn't talking. But you know what that means? She isn't. That means she's not talking about what happened to Mike. Right. So that's right. However, you've got Brian Winchester in prison now for assault and kidnapping. So while he's speaking with investigators, Brian Winchester makes a deal with prosecutors. In the documentary, they don't give details about how this conversation comes up, but obviously when they have Brian Winchester and he's.

[Shane]

Wait, he's in custody? Denise told on him?

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. So he's in custody and then she

[Shane]

writes some letters saying, I'm not talking.

[Emily Simpson]

Well, she didn't write him. She sent him a message, whatever. Right. But it doesn't, it doesn't matter to him about that. Like, the point is, at some point, they don't talk about this. They don't give you clear details in the documentary. I'm just going to speculate here, but I'm assuming when they have him in custody, they're also asking about Mike Williams, right?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

They know he sold them the insurance. He's the guy's best friend. Now he's married to the wife. I mean, they've been on to them, but they don't have enough evidence. Right, right. So now they have him in custody. So he ends up making a deal with prosecutors. He gets full immunity. Full immunity.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Emily Simpson]

And I read the immunity deal, he gets full immunity to give them details of Mike's murder, how it went down, where the body is, who is involved. So they basically said to him, I read this immunity deal, and it's very interesting, I'll tell you, because there's a typo in it. But in the immunity deal, it's basically like, you give us all this information about how the murder was committed, where the body is, who is involved, you detail it out, we will give you full immunity. And also, he got no life sentence for the kidnapping and gun charge and assault with the ex wife. Talk about a deal.

[Shane]

No kidding.

[Emily Simpson]

I mean, this guy got 20 years and that's it for the kidnapping, the, the gun, the, the whole thing with the ex wife and complete immunity for a murder that he committed.

[Shane]

Wow.

[Emily Simpson]

And you know what was interesting in this immunity deal? Because I looked at. I was reading it and you know how as lawyers, what do we do? We always. We don't reinvent the wheel. So whenever you're doing an immunity deal and you're doing it for a new person, you take the old immunity deal. Right.

[Shane]

A lot of components.

[Emily Simpson]

You have a lot of templates that you're using. Right. So when I'm reading this immunity deal, they forgot to change the name from Brian Winchester. So there's actually a paragraph where it says Wade Wilson. Yes. On his immunity. Oh, my gosh. Wade Wilson. Like we're in Florida. Right. So it's the same prosecuting office or whatever. They forgot to switch out Wade Wilson's name with Brian Winchester. But anyway, I just found that amusing.

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[Danielle Fishel]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Take 5 Oil Change Announcer]

So good.

[Wells Fargo Announcer]

Your bill, ladies.

[Emily Simpson]

I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly. You don't be silly.

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[Emily Simpson]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Take 5 Oil Change Announcer]

Shoot.

[Orderly Meds Announcer]

No.

[Wells Fargo Announcer]

The Wells Fargo ActiveCash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.comActiveCash terms apply.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Take 5 Oil Change Announcer]

your schedule sounds like this.

[Emily Simpson]

Are you kidding me?

[Take 5 Oil Change Announcer]

An oil change is the last thing you have time for. So drive into Take five and let our techs change your oil. Check your tires, top off your fluids and have you back on the road. Pull pit stop fast all while you stay in your car. No putting your entire schedule on hold. No upsells, no problem. So you can get back to your to do list or not. Find your nearest [e-mail] Take 5 the stay in your car 10 minute oil

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[Emily Simpson]

So in his confession, Brian described so this is what happened that day. He describes pushing Mike from his boat. So he was hunting with him that morning. He says he pushed him from his boat. But his initial he was trying to drown him because I guess Mike wasn't a strong swimmer. So he pushes him from the boat. He lands in the water. He thought he would drown when he pushed him.

[Shane]

He thought he didn't swim. Like he could ease, I think he

[Emily Simpson]

thought, with the waiters on. Because people say that's very dangerous if you fall in the water with the waiting. Those waiter boots, they fill up with water.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

And then you can't Heavy.

[Shane]

Aren't they galoshes or what are they called?

[Emily Simpson]

Galoshes? Yes.

[Shane]

Is that what it's called?

[Emily Simpson]

They're called waiters. Galoshes are what kindergarteners wear when it rains outside.

[Shane]

Yeah. Oh, well, fishermen. Galoshes.

[Emily Simpson]

What?

[Shane]

Isn't that what it's called, though?

[Emily Simpson]

I think that's like a term for kids. Galoshes. I don't think adults that go hunting say galoshes. I think they say waiters.

[Shane]

All right. Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Anyway, but when those waiters fill up with water, they're very heavy and they're

[Shane]

very dangerous and you're stuck in them and it's like. Yeah, it's like bright.

[Emily Simpson]

So I guess he thought if he pushed him into the water with the waiters on, they would fill up with water. He would drown.

[Shane]

Okay, so what ended up happening?

[Emily Simpson]

Well, he didn't drown. He ended up like holding on to a tree stump. So he's just out in the water holding on to a tree stump. So then the guy panics because he's like, I just tried to kill him, and he's alive.

[Shane]

How inconvenient.

[Emily Simpson]

Oh, this does not work well for me at all. So he shot him in the face.

[Shane]

He had a gun.

[Emily Simpson]

He had a gun.

[Shane]

They're hunting. Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he had a gun. They were duck hunting.

[Shane]

Well, that's a completely different kind of murder. Yeah, it's like, oh, here. I'm just gonna make an accidental drowning. Okay, Never mind. I'll shoot him in the face.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, because you know what? He panicked because he. He tried to drown him, and then

[Shane]

he didn't drown, and he literally pushed him. Right. So if the guy survived, he would say, you pushed me.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

But then it could be like, yeah, I push you because you're an idiot or something. I mean, he could have. He had outs.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, but I don't think that goes through your mind. I think you panic.

[Shane]

What goes through your mind is, let me pull out my shotgun and kill him, I guess, in the face.

[Emily Simpson]

That's what he did. So he shot him.

[Shane]

All right.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah.

[Shane]

Obviously, it's. Yeah. Okay.

[Emily Simpson]

Okay. So this is where the details get fuzzy, because I don't know this part, and I couldn't find this information, but somehow Brian Winchester shot him in the face while he's in the water. Then he has to drag him out of the lake. I don't know how you physically do that. I mean, he's wet. He has clothes on.

[Shane]

He's got.

[Emily Simpson]

He's got a drag.

[Shane]

Waiters.

[Emily Simpson]

He's got the waiters. He's got to drag him out of the lake, put him into his own vehicle, and then drive him and bury him somewhere.

[Shane]

But did he have a. A bag?

[Emily Simpson]

I. I don't know what he had, but he did bury him. He buried him very close to where they actually live. So he did tell them where the body was, and they did recover the body.

[Shane]

Nothing was found in the car. Right. Original. Did they ever search the car?

[Emily Simpson]

Didn't search it. That was another problem.

[Shane]

It was a missing person. It was a missing murder.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. And that is where they have talked about how this investigation, if they would have deemed it not just a missing person, but a crime scene, they would have searched the boat, they would have searched his vehicle. They would have tried to. I don't know. They probably would have looked for other tracks to see if there were other vehicles there at the time. They would have treated it like a crime scene. But because he was just a missing person that they thought drowned in the lake, they never treated that area like a crime scene. So they never investigated it forensically. So this guy literally shot him in the. In the face. He somehow gets him into his own vehicle, he drives him however many miles away it is, and he buries him. And then he shows up for Christmas dinner in Georgia at Granny's house and he's tired. Yeah, that's why he showed up late, because he had a lot to do.

[Shane]

He had more cleaning up than he had planned for.

[Emily Simpson]

Yeah, he did not plan on that. He planned on him drowning. So then he has to add all this time on where he has to,

[Shane]

like, what would he have done if he drowned? Then he have called the authorities and like, my friend fell overboard, I think so.

[Emily Simpson]

I think that was a plan. I think he would have admitted that they were together, dun dun hunting. And I think he would have said that his friend drowned and wasn't a strong swimmer and he tried to help him and he couldn't get him out or whatever. So also Brian, during this confession and this immunity deal that he makes, he also claims that Denise knew of the plan and had encouraged it. Right, right. Of course he's going to throw her under the bus. Brian later leads investigators to Mike's remains. The body had been buried for nearly two decades in a dry creek bed at Car Lake, which was about an hour away from Lake Seminole. Brian claims he committed the entire act alone.

[Shane]

At that point, they're only going to find bones, right?

[Emily Simpson]

They did find bones.

[Take 5 Oil Change Announcer]

Yeah.

[Shane]

I mean, that's it, though. They're not gonna find anything.

[Emily Simpson]

They found some pieces of clothing that hadn't completely deteriorated.

[Shane]

I know what they didn't find. His fishing license.

[Emily Simpson]

They did not. Or his jacket. Yes, they did not find those. So this. Now we get to 2018. This has been going on since 2000. Right. We get to 2018, and Denise is arrested. In May of 2018, authorities arrest Denise on her daughter's 19th birthday. Denise pleads not guilty. Brian and Kathy both testify against her in court. And this is in her original trial. The jury finds her guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, first degree murder, and accessory after the fact. So in December of 2018, which was not that long ago, I mean, this took place in 2000. We're all the way up to 2018. This woman's being sentenced. Denise was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and accessory after the fact. And she was sentenced to life in prison. She actually appeals. So she's convicted originally of conspiracy to commit murder and first degree murder and accessory after the fact. She appeals that, and they get rid of the first degree Murder because her attorney argued, which is a good argument, that there wasn't enough evidence to prove that she was involved in the actual murder. I mean, he doesn't place her there. He says he acted alone.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Emily Simpson]

So the first degree murder charge is eventually dropped on appeal. An appeals court later overturned her murder conviction, but her conspiracy conviction stood. So today, Brian is serving a 20 year sentence for the kidnapping of Denise while she serves a 30 year sentence for conspiracy and Mike's death. So no one is officially charged for Mike Williams murder.

[Shane]

Put away for a while. You know, 20 years. You know, what they did was they just max that out. I mean, it's like, okay, you have immunity on the murder, but because you think they would have given him 20 years for kidnapping that way?

[Emily Simpson]

No, I don't think so.

[Shane]

I'm not downplaying it. That was horrific. You know, he's dangerous, but they wouldn't give him 20 years. No, they used it as. So he had immunity for the murder. So they got him to. It's like O.J.

[Emily Simpson]

right?

[Shane]

They found a reason to throw him in jail. Well, they had a good reason, a valid criminal reason to throw him in jail. But they put him away for a long time knowing that, you know, try to get retribution for like the him getting away.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. So you're saying they gave him the max on the kidnapping because they couldn't get anything on the, you know, also the prosecution. You know, I'm sure the only way this guy would talk and tell where this guy's body is is if he got full immunity. It was like an all or nothing.

[Shane]

I got something out of it. Otherwise they would, he'd still be free, maybe a kidnapping charge, gotten a couple years or whatever it was.

[Emily Simpson]

So I mean, at that point they're just weighing the benefit of. Yeah, for sure, you know, solace to this mother so that she finally knows like where her son is on there

[Shane]

and just closing the case, solving it.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

There's always something to learn from, from these, you know, like, hopefully they learn like, okay, next time someone goes missing in the swamp, let's not assume it's a missing. Let's treat it like a crime, like a crime scene.

[Emily Simpson]

Right, Right. So, I mean, the irony is Brian is serving a 20 year sentence just for kidnapping, while De Denise is in jail for 30 years for conspiracy. Where are Mike and Den? Where's Mike and Denise's daughter? Her name is Ansley. Where is she now? So in 2019, Denise signed a deal to avoid prosecution on fraud charges. And Mike's mom, Cheryl and his brother Nick agreed that Ansley should be awarded her late father's entire estate and insurance monies. She was given a significant financial sum and a total of four real estate properties across Florida. Under the agreement, Ansley, this is. The daughter cannot use any of this money or assets to help pay her mother's legal fees or any other costs associated with the murder case. If she does so, she can be penalized $150,000 in damages. Ansley holds a bachelor's degree in entrepreneurship. I don't even know entrepreneurship is such a. Like, like.

[Shane]

Well, it's like business administration.

[Emily Simpson]

It's like such an old, like, very broad word. So. She earned a bachelor's degree in entrepreneurship from Florida State University and a master's degree in mass communication from the University of Florida. According to reports, Ansley continues to reside in Tallahassee where she works as a business strategy, social media marketing, and public relations specialist. I do know that she also stands by her mom. I think that's why they had that writer in there. That she couldn't use any of the insurance proceeds or real estate proceeds that she inherited from her dad's estate to use towards her mom's defense. Because I think she was a very staunch supporter of her mom, saying that she didn't believe her mom was involved at all and that her mom shouldn't be in prison.

[Shane]

So I guess she should watch the documentary.

[Emily Simpson]

She. She should watch the documentary, yes. So anyway, so Mike, I believe. Because this is. He wasn't sentenced into. Until 2018. So he said, I don't know if he's eligible for parole after I'm. I don't know if it's 20 years without parole or if it's 20 years. And sometime in that time frame, he's eligible for parole. I would say probably not eligible for parole.

[Shane]

I don't know.

[Emily Simpson]

Because he got a pretty sweet deal in that immunity deal with actually admitting to murder. How he did it, how he probably

[Shane]

thought, like, 20 years was on the table for his little deal with her and kidnapping her.

[Emily Simpson]

Right.

[Shane]

He probably never thought that was a 20 year sentence.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. I think when it. When they probably put the maximum out, he's like, wait, wait, wait.

[Shane]

Right.

[Emily Simpson]

Is there anything you want me to tell you? Like, how can we.

[Shane]

And they probably downplay, like, it's just a little gun charge. Don't worry about that. Okay. The murder thing, we're gonna get immunity on.

[Emily Simpson]

Right. All right. So that. This is called. It's on Hulu.

[Shane]

It is that one parter.

[Emily Simpson]

No, it's a I think it's a three parter. It's called Mr. And Mrs. Murder. There's also some Dateline episodes on it. It's a very, it's a very interesting, intriguing story. If you're interested in watching it. It's got all, it's got all the things. It's got, you know, romance.

[Shane]

It's got romance.

[Emily Simpson]

I don't know about romance.

[Shane]

The affairs.

[Emily Simpson]

It's got alligators. Affairs.

[Shane]

Hell yes.

[Emily Simpson]

Insurance money. Sex addicts, kidnapping.

[Shane]

Duck honey.

[Emily Simpson]

Duck honey. It's got it all. So Anyway, it's called Mr. And Mrs. Conspiracies. Conspiracies. It's got it all. So anyway, thank you guys for listening. Till death do us part. Again, if you have any cases out there that you're aware of, of husbands taking out their wives or wives and you know what I mean by taking out, not like to dinner, be sure to DM me and let me know. We're always entertain interested in your recommendations and as always, thank you so much for listening and please follow Legally Brunette.

[Shane]

Divorce over death.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. We will end every episode in reminding our listeners that divorce is always the best option.

[Shane]

Over death.

[Emily Simpson]

Yes. Thank you for listening.

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[Emily Simpson]

Honestly.

[Shane]

Honestly.

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[Emily Simpson]

Guaranteed human.