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Amy Robach
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Amy Robach
Good morning, welcome to today.
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Amy Robach
You can make a difference in someone's.
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T.J. Holmes
I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.
Amy Robach
What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story.
T.J. Holmes
Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story about the scariest night of my life.
Amy Robach
This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily it's back to school week on the okay Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been Hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe. Find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
T.J. Holmes
Hey there folks. It is Friday, September 5th, and mystery solved. No, the Annabelle doll did not just kill a guy. And the coroner even put that in his report. But still, not everybody is buying it. And with that, welcome to this Annabelle edition of Amy and tj. This was a mystery this summer. A paranormal investigator who had been dealing with the infamous Annabelle doll found dead. No explanation. We got a reason why. But robes, you've been looking at a lot online and a lot of people do not buy the answer the coroner has given us.
Amy Robach
Yes, this is pretty fascinating. And by the way, the timing of the release of his autopsy has not gone unnoticed. Of course, we had the final installment of the Conjuring today. Friday is its opening release. There were early showings yesterday, which we saw and loved. But just to have this timing, this news come out all around the same time is eerie in and of itself. But yes, even though we got the official word from the coroner that this was a cardiac event, that did not stop people from still believing that Annabelle had something to do with that. So I was looking at some of the comments, things like, should have left that doll in her glass box where she belongs forever. Y' all can say it's not real, but until y' all go get Annabelle and spend a week with her, you don't know what you don't know.
T.J. Holmes
And we're talking about Dan Rivera here, the paranormal investigator who's 54 years old. He was found alone in his hotel room in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania in July of this summer. And he was on tour with this Annabelle doll. We're just saying Annabelle doll, assuming everybody knows what we're talking about. But it was the doll that was made famous by the Conjuring movies, the Conjuring franchise. They certainly believe Ed and Lorraine Warren that this doll was possessed, was demonic, kept it stored in a glass case. I didn't even realize they would be. They had been touring around with it. Other paranormal investigators take it out on tour. There was a sold out event in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. The next day. This man found dead in his hotel room. No cause of death. It was unexpected but not suspicious. So that gets Us caught up on where we are now. They told us at the time, robes, these things take time. It's going to be a little while to get the autopsy report. But the speculation, you can't help but even us, you don't have to be into the paranormal necessarily. But given what we know in the history of the Warrens and this doll and everything we've seen in the movies and the actual history of this doll, we, for the past couple of months have been looking at this and going, wait a minute.
Amy Robach
Whoa. I mean, look, I think it's absolutely. I get why people are trying to connect the dots, because if you do believe in what the Warrens, Ed and Lorraine Warren, spent their life devoted to trying to help people who were troubled by demonic possession. In fact, Ed Warren is the priest who was sanctioned by the Catholic Church to perform exorcism. So there are a lot of folks who absolutely buy their credibility as experts in this field. There are others who think they're charlatans, who think this is all ridiculous. But the unexplained is the unexplained. And then to get the corn, the corners, or the autopsy results, basically saying that it was a cardiac issue, that doesn't necessarily clear up for a lot of people who believe in the power of this doll and that somehow the doll or evil couldn't have been responsible for this.
T.J. Holmes
Hell of a coincidence.
Amy Robach
It certainly is. He was alone in a hotel room at 54 years old, and he had just wrapped this Gettysburg leg of the tour. And we can get into some of the other issues. But where Annabel had been, a couple of tragedies had unfolded as she left within a day or two. So a lot of people were already pointing to the doll's powers and not wanting the doll to come to their city. And so to have the man, Dan Rivera, actually found dead once he wrapped it up in an unexplained fashion just fueled conspiracy theorists.
T.J. Holmes
Look, we weren't putting stuff out there necessarily about conspiracy theories. I don't necessarily find it to be a conspiracy. We talked about this. We watched the final installment of the conjuring franchise, Conjuring Last Rites. We did see it last night. And I leaned over to you at some point because they were showing the room where the Warrens would keep all of these items, these demonic items that they've collected from their investigations. And the doll stays in there in a glass case. I just leaned over, I said, would you go in there if you had a chance to go into Ed and Lorraine Warren's Basement, that room where they kept all this stuff, including the Annabelle doll. Would you take the opportunity?
Amy Robach
And I said without hesitation, no, no, absolutely not. And you can laugh at that, but I just wouldn't want to risk it. Look, I think a lot of people who are of faith sometimes have a hard time with this, but I was. My mom is a Catholic and very faithful. And she had at times given me a little, just a little skepticism, a little sneer, saying, I can't believe you actually might believe some of this stuff is true. And I said, if you are a religious person, you believe in the supernatural, you believe in something you can't explain, you believe in a power that you cannot see, you believe in a force that you cannot touch, that you don't actually have proof of other than your faith. And so for that, if you think about it in those terms, it's not that crazy to believe that there could be other realms, that there could be supernatural realms that those who have passed might have access, and there could be evil spirits as well as good spirits. And so for anyone who actually just takes a second to think about it, it's not impossible. In the world we live in, with the beliefs most people hold in this.
T.J. Holmes
World, there's been plenty unexplained. And there's a great line to what you were saying that Patrick Wilson has. I think it was in Conjuring 3 where he said, our courts every single day by having people take an oath, acknowledge the existence of God. Don't you think it's about time they acknowledge the existence of the devil as well? That is the point. And that makes perfect sense. How can you be a believer in one thing and not on the other side? So I don't think this is. There have been all kinds of documented cases of. Of supernatural. You can be a believer or not. But for me, and we have seen enough, we've read enough, we've studied enough, I wouldn't mess around with this doll. If somebody walked in our home right now carrying that doll, I was the hell out of here.
Amy Robach
So I just got chills when you said that because I was imagining attending one of these displays or these tours. There's absolutely no way I would go just out of fear of what if. And I don't want to be anywhere near anything that is said to have been possessed, that is said to have caused harm, that is said to have been surro by evil spirits. No, thank you.
T.J. Holmes
And we love. And as much as we are a fan of this movie franchise and know about this doll, I Wouldn't even be curious to go see it. And if you all don't know if you have seen the movies, at least you know the doll that you was it kind of a porcelain 2 foot or so sized doll that has a bizarre smile on its face, but it has kind of a waxy smooth face to it. And it's, it's not making a menacing look, but it looks menacing. It just looks terrifying when you see the one in the movie, but that's not the actual one in real life it doesn't look like that.
Amy Robach
That's right. So this, yeah, the one you see in the movie is like a porcelain doll, like you said, that's been aged and tossed around and just looks frankly demonic. The actual Annabelle doll that the, that Ed and Lorraine Warren put in that glass case and said do not touch. It's actually a large Raggedy Ann doll and very much like a sewn, a homemade almost looking doll that's fairly large for its size and to me is almost scarier than the one in the movies because it looks so innocent and childlike.
T.J. Holmes
At least the one in the movie. It does creep you out enough that you would, you know, you would be on guard if you see this Raggedy Ann doll. You wouldn't think anything of it, which makes it even more terrible.
Amy Robach
Exactly. You would pick it right up, not feeling like it was scary at all. But no, this was the glass box that the Warrens kept it in in their home museum was to contain the evil spirited entity. And they warned about taking the doll out of the case, about touching the case. And so the interesting thing about this whole story is that Dan Rivera was a student, an apprentice, so to speak, of Lorraine Warren specifically. And he studied under her and he was a part and a member of the New England Society for Psychic Research, which was founded back in 1952 by Ed and Lorraine Warren. So there is a direct connection to Lorraine War. There's a direct connection to the work that they put in, into the conjuring movies. And so to have him die at 54 unexpectedly in a hotel room, of course, that's the first thing people think.
T.J. Holmes
Now the coroner, I thought this was just interesting. Did put out a statement, but yes, put out the findings and like you mentioned a moment ago, the fact that he seemed to die of a cardiac event on his own, I think there were even reports that they put out that he reported to some of his friends, he was traveling with co workers, that he wasn't feeling good necessarily that night. Is that right?
Amy Robach
Yes, he. Right, right. At the end of the last day, this was a Sunday, I believe it was a weekend tour. He told his colleagues that he wasn't feeling well and he was going to go up to his room and lay down.
T.J. Holmes
All right, so the coroner now has made the announcement on the day that the final Conjuring movie is released. He just happened to put out the statement, but he said, yes, died of natural causes. But added this. Mr. Rivera had a known history of cardiac issues which were consistent with the findings. It is also confirmed that Annabelle was not present in the room at the time of his passing. I thought it was funny that he called it as if it was a person, not the doll. Annabelle. Annabelle. He just said Annabelle wasn't in there.
Amy Robach
And I thought it was funny that he felt the need to add that a corner because whose job it is to determine how someone died and if the manner of that death was suspicious, felt the need to let everyone know that Annabelle wasn't in the room at the time of his passing. But if anyone is a fan of Ed and Lorraine Warren or of the Conjuring movies, that really doesn't make it that much of a difference. He was with the doll. He was moving the doll. He was touring with the doll. We don't know exactly where the doll was, but he had just been with it. And so we all know Annabelle has her ways. I mean, she can appear, disappear suddenly be in a rocking chair, and then suddenly be in her glass case and then suddenly show up somewhere else. So, honestly, that really didn't impact me. Although if the doll had been in the room, that would have been creepier.
T.J. Holmes
Oh, this would have been. We would have led every single morning on the morning run with that story if it was the case. But as you're saying, right? You're. If folks thought for. If you haven't been watching the Conjuring movies in the franchise, you might think that Robes was just being sarcastic or just being a little silly. They're talking about the doll moving. No, there are. There is a documented case with this doll of reports of it moving inexplicably, moving on its own, showing up in different places in a house. This is how the Warrens first got involved with Call to a Home where this was happening. This doll, someone said it actually was leaving notes, it was writing notes, and so things were happening. So to suggest here in real life that this doll might have moved around and been up to something, in fact, is in line with what this doll has been documented as doing over the past several decades. Now, Robes, that's right.
Amy Robach
That's right. And look, when Dan Rivera held this final tour that he had with the doll in Gettysburg, he actually was making jokes and telling people that he had taken great measures to make sure that they were protected being in the same room or being in the presence of Annabelle. This was a sold out tour, by the way. I mean, people were clamoring to see this doll, but he absolutely told them that he built the case with three crosses which represented the holy Trinity, and he said it was stained with holy water. So he had done what he could to protect people from the doll or the evil entity that lives within the doll while still viewing the doll.
T.J. Holmes
That's. It's absolutely incredible this has happened. Look, there. There are a lot of people in the community. Right? There are people outside, but in the paranormal community that look up to this guy who have. They've lost someone who was actually an. An advocate, a supporter who was, I guess, like Ed and Lorraine Warren were trying to put this into more of the mainstream, which they did, and they're credited for. This is the guy who was really at the top of a. Of this world, which is very small. So it is a big loss for that paranormal community. I know people are making some jokes out there and whatnot, but we have to always don't forget that the core of this story is a tragedy, a human tragedy that is now for some, surrounded in mystery.
Amy Robach
Yeah. We should mention Dan Rivera had a wife. He had four kids. And so this is a real tragedy that an entire family is suffering from. Because again, when you have someone die that young, that is, it's so sudden, it's so tragic. And I'm sure it does not help to have all the theories and the speculation and the online chatter about how he died or why he died still ever present.
T.J. Holmes
All right, but why exactly? I know some of you have seen the movies, you hear us talking about it, but what started this all? Well, you're not gonna believe. And we're gonna share once again some of these details about what exactly this doll allegedly did initially to three young folks that had them scared to go home.
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T.J. Holmes
My name is Ed.
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Everyone say hello Ed.
T.J. Holmes
I'm from a very rural background myself. My dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So like, it's not like what do.
Amy Robach
You get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago.
T.J. Holmes
I just normally do straight stand up, but this is a bit different.
Amy Robach
On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear.
T.J. Holmes
On 22 July 2015, a 23 year old man had killed his family and then he came to my house.
Amy Robach
So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand up comedy and murder take center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Oh wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the okay Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor and they're the same age. Then it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him. Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the okay Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach
December 29, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush. Parents hauling luggage. Kids gripping their new Christmas toys.
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Then at 6:33pm everything changed.
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There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal.
Amy Robach
Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass.
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The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene.
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In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged. And it was here to stay.
Amy Robach
Terrorism.
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Law and criminal justice system is back in season two.
Amy Robach
We're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight that's harder.
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To predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of law.
Amy Robach
And criminal justice System on the iHeartRadio.
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App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach
Welcome back to this edition of Amy and tj. And we have just received the official autopsy results of the 54 year old paranormal investigator Dan Rivera, who suddenly and unexpectedly died while touring with the legendary, or maybe I should say infamous notorious Annabelle doll made famous by the conjuring movies. And these results, which we had been awaiting actually now for months, ironically, maybe just coincidentally, came out on the day the conjuring movie, the Final Edition, the Last Rite, has now hit theaters nationwide. I mean, that really threw me. I have to be honest. That was a very strange and odd coincidence.
T.J. Holmes
He had to have known the movie was coming out. I mean, no reason to wait. Maybe it's just a coincidence. I'm done with my work. It's ready. There's no reason to hold it just because a movie came out. I don't know. It's just, it's it that's odd that it fell on the exact same day. So we're sitting in there, we know we got the news about it yesterday. And then we're sitting in the theater last night looking at Alan Annabelle on screen.
Amy Robach
Yeah, it. Yes. And that none of that was lost on us because this doll's history goes way back. So it all began back in 1970 when a mom gave this doll, Annabelle to her daughter Donna, who was a nursing student. And that's when Donna says she noticed the doll making small movements at first and it would show up in a room. As to what we were saying earlier about the doll being able to Move. So that's why the fact that Annabelle wasn't in the room at the time of Dan Rivera's death doesn't really change anything for the people who know the history of this doll.
T.J. Holmes
But you. There are a lot of people listening.
Amy Robach
Now, going, they're rolling their eyes. We get it.
T.J. Holmes
Stop.
Amy Robach
We get it.
T.J. Holmes
And I'm telling you right now, I believe I. I mean, I'm not at all. I mean, you could do percentages and where. I am on the fence, but there is. I am not one who is skeptical enough to go, no. No way. That didn't happen.
Amy Robach
No, I. You know what? Stranger things have happened, and there are plenty of things that we can't explain. But this doll, in addition to showing up in rooms that they didn't leave it in, this is really creepy. And this was definitely shown in the movies, even last night. Help me. Help us. They found that written on parchment paper that they didn't have in their home. Correct.
T.J. Holmes
They didn't own it. Yeah. Oh.
Amy Robach
Now, in the. In the movie, it says, miss me, I believe, with a question mark. But this said, help me. Help us. And so that is when they called in a medium. And this medium tells this nursing student and her roommates that the. I guess the ghost or the. The spirit that was possessing the doll's name was Annabelle Higgins, a seven year old who had died and once lived there. And the medium told Donna and her friends that Annabelle liked them and wanted to be love. So the girls gave her permission to enter the doll.
T.J. Holmes
Big no. No.
Amy Robach
Big mistake. Big, big, big mistake. So after that happened, their friend Lou, who actually, you can see in the movie as one of the guys sitting on that couch talking to the Warrens.
T.J. Holmes
No, he wasn't talking. He was traumatized. He was the guy sitting there because he went through it probably worse than anybody in that house, did he not?
Amy Robach
Yes. He claims that he was awake but couldn't move. Like that. Sleep paralysis kind of thing. That terrifies the heck out of me. He said he was looking around the room but couldn't discern anything out of the ordinary. And then he. He looked down towards his feet and he saw Annabelle. He says it started to glide up his leg, move over his chest, and then stopped and started strangling him.
T.J. Holmes
That's unbelievable. Like the idea of that, you want to. Your first thought is, come on. Of course this didn't happen. And they're making it up some kind of elaborate hoax in 1970. Okay, okay, that's fine.
Amy Robach
All right. So Ed and Lorraine were brought in after this account was I guess, relayed to them. And that's when they told Donna and her friends the doll's not possessed by some young 7 year old girl named Annabelle who just wants to be friends. No, this was an inhuman demonic spirit who was starting with the possession of the doll and its ultimate goal was to possess them to get inside a human.
T.J. Holmes
The explanation was that this was all part of the demon's plan for them to call in the medium to manipulate her into manipulating them. So she became the authority. So they trusted what this woman was saying and they invited her in. So this is how it all started, believe it or not. Now we go down the years in the road. There was one other incident, robes the motorcycle incident, where somebody. And you could see somebody doing this. Right. They're going to tour the Ed and Lorraine Warren's basement down there. They see the doll, some guy sees the doll, starts mocking. That's the last thing I would ever do but starts mocking.
Amy Robach
Well, it's the last thing he ever.
T.J. Holmes
Did when he hopped on his motorcycle after that on the way home. Wasn't his girlfriend with him?
Amy Robach
Yes.
T.J. Holmes
Had a motorcycle accident on the way home from mocking the doll and died. Yes. That too can just be a coincidence.
Amy Robach
It could, but a lot of people are pointing to the fact that Ed and Lorraine Warren, while they were alive, absolutely warned to never move the doll. So a lot of these folks are saying online that because Dan Rivera was spearheading this tour and decided to move the doll and parade it around the country so that people could see it and understand what the history is of the doll, that that is why he died. And that Ed and Lorraine Warren absolutely warned of the powers of this doll if you moved it, if you touched it, if you took it anywhere outside of their museum, which they kept locked at all times.
T.J. Holmes
And it's locked back up now. Right. It did return to the museum and it's there. And there's a someone new who is a steward of it, essentially the warden, if you will, who is in charge of looking after it. But it is back in a safe place. I actually don't know if they planning on touring it anymore after this. I don't know if they can. I don't know if they should. I guess maybe this is added to the mystery and you might have more interest in going to see it or you might never sell a ticket again. But if it comes to New York, I might leave town.
Amy Robach
Well, here's the crazy thing. And they haven't said whether or not they're going to it. What? It had been scheduled to have another leg of the tour in Illinois that was canceled after the death of Dan Rivera. But the crazy thing is if you go back to when he was touring the doll, it started in New Orleans for a two day event at a ghost tour. This was in May, so this was the beginning of the tour. There just so happened to be a prison escape which we have fully covered in morning run and a plantation fire. That happened. Some plantation went burned to the ground that had been there for hundreds of years. And so people were already going online and blaming Annabelle for these two events in New Orleans and said things online like I wonder what's going to happen in Gettysburg? Because they knew that was the next leg of the tour. And so for people to already be speculating and then for him to die unexpectedly, that's just a. That's just a. A tough thing to ignore.
T.J. Holmes
Some things we call a coincidence and other things we leave as unexplained. Can't be in both categories on this one. It's one or the other and this might be unexplained or maybe some people will never accept anything other than that doll had something to do with this death. But our hearts go out to certainly that, that community, him and his family. I didn't know about four kids. Four kids. Yeah, I didn't know four kids. But that's tough and that's sad. But also we, we appreciate to a certain degree Robes this movie making this conjuring franchise which is the greatest, the most profitable in horror movie history. Just that storytelling and bringing Ed and Lorraine's story to the masses in a different way. And we have been able to study them. And yes, people think they were snake oil salesmen to a certain degree, but a lot of people tell you they helped. So no matter what, these are lives and stories of interest and worth noting and worth taking lessons from. And I appreciate that we've been big fans of the franchise. I appreciate that we went and saw the movie last night that we absolutely love. Check out our movie review. That episode is up also. It was like 11 o' clock at night. We were not well, so if nothing else, just have a good time.
Amy Robach
But we were giddy because we were. We actually joy coming out of that movie because it was just so good, so well done. It had the right amount of fear and the right amount of heart and it just was a great combo and a great way to end this storied franchise. But we just want to say thank you for listening to us and yeah, check out the movie, check out our podcast and just let it be known we'll never get anywhere near, not even in the same city as that Annabelle doll, just out of respect for what it could represent. So with that, everyone have a great Friday. Thanks for listening. I'm Amy Robach alongside T.J. holmes. Talk to you soon.
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With depression, it feels like every day you're just going through the motions. I wanted something that could help me.
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Feel better fast and that also lasts.
Amy Robach
That's when my doctor told me about ovality in a study.
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Ovelity started working for some as early.
Amy Robach
As one week with significant improvements seen on average at six weeks compared to placebo.
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Ovelity is helping me to feel more like myself.
Amy Robach
I'm glad I talked to my doctor about Ovelity. Ovelity is a prescription medicine for adults with major depressive disorder. Ovelity is not approved for children under 18. Ovelity may increase suicidal features, thoughts and actions in young adults.
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Tell your doctor about sudden changes to.
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Mood, thoughts or behavior. Do NOT take Ovelity if you have a history of seizure, eating disorder or have abruptly stopped drinking alcohol or taking benzodiazepines, barbiturates or anti seizure medicine, serious allergic reactions can occur. Do NOT take if you are allergic to dextromethorphan, bupropion or any of the ingredients in Ovelity. Do not take with maois. High blood pressure, manic episodes, serious eye problems and dizziness can occur. Report all medicines you take to avoid a life threatening condition. Do not take Ovelity if you are or may become pregnant. Side effects can include dizziness, headache, diarrhea, feeling sleepy, dry mouth, sexual function problems and excessive sweating. Ask your healthcare provider if Ovelity is right for you.
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This is an iHeart podcast.
Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Host: Amy Robach, T.J. Holmes
Date: September 5, 2025
Episode Theme:
Investigating the sudden death of paranormal investigator Dan Rivera—who was touring with the infamous Annabelle doll—and the persistent belief among the public that the doll was responsible, despite the official cause of death, all set against the backdrop of the release of the final Conjuring movie.
Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes examine the mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of Dan Rivera, a prominent paranormal investigator closely connected to the notorious Annabelle doll. They explore the autopsy findings, the fervor of conspiracy theories in the paranormal community, and the deep cultural roots of Annabelle’s legend—especially as this news coincides with the release of "The Conjuring: Last Rites." The hosts also reflect on their own beliefs and fears, dig into Annabelle’s backstory, and discuss the broader impact on Rivera’s family and the paranormal community.
Amy and T.J. oscillate between skeptical journalism and personal unease, treating the tragedy respectfully while indulging in the spooky fun associated with Annabelle’s legend. Deeply knowledgeable about both the real and cinematic Annabelle, they balance fact and fervor, never dismissing the raw grief of Rivera’s family or the passionate beliefs of the paranormal community.
Ultimately, the episode leaves the mystery open—if only because, like ghost stories themselves, “some things we call a coincidence and other things we leave as unexplained.”
(T.J., 29:00)
For further discussion:
Hosts: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes
Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Released: September 5, 2025