The Brian Walshe Trial: Criminal Defense Attorney Says Google Searches Worse Than A Confession

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present

Episode: The Brian Walshe Trial: Criminal Defense Attorney Says Google Searches Worse Than A Confession
Release Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Amy Robach, T.J. Holmes
Guest: Allison Treasle, Criminal Defense Attorney

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the highly publicized Brian Walshe murder trial, now in its second day. Amy and TJ welcome experienced criminal defense attorney Allison Treasle to break down the legal and emotional complexities of the case. The discussion centers on the rare and sensational defense strategy, chilling evidence (especially Walshe's Google searches), and the major challenge posed by the absence of the victim’s body.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Case and Its Unusual Defense

• Background: Brian Walshe, a husband and father of three, is on trial for the alleged murder of his wife, Anna Walshe. Her body has never been found, but Brian has admitted to dismembering and disposing of her remains and to lying to investigators. However, he denies killing her.
  • Amy summarizes: “He's already pleaded guilty to dismembering her body...but he says he did not murder his wife.” (03:49)
• Defense Tactic: Walshe’s attorney, Alan Tipton, is arguing "sudden unexplained death" — asserting Anna died of natural causes and Brian only disposed of the body.
  • Allison Treasle calls it “an actual defense. This is a defense you only need one juror to believe. And my goodness, does it have legs. Well, the case is pretty bad.” (04:49)

2. Overwhelming Evidence: Search History and Lies

• The Google Searches: Walshe’s internet searches are a focal point for the prosecution. Searches included phrases like "can you be charged with murder without a body?", "how to dispose of a body after murder," "can you identify a body with broken teeth?", and "how to clean blood off pavement."
  • Treasle remarks: “If I'm the prosecutor and I say, wait a minute, someone who innocently discovers that his wife is dead is not going to type in the word murder, are they?” (11:12)
• Lying to Police: Walshe did not report his wife missing and misled authorities, demonstrating a calm and convincing demeanor that surprised both the public and the jury.
  • Amy observes: “How cool, calm and collected he is...He was so believable.” (10:12)

3. Legal Challenges in Court

• No Body, No Cause of Death: The absence of Anna’s body means prosecutors have no coroner to confirm cause or manner of death, complicating the burden of proof for murder.
  • Treasle: “You don't have a coroner that can get up and say, absolutely not, she was strangled…without a body, without an autopsy and without their client testifying.” (06:43, 14:03)
• Probability of Defense: Treasle discusses how statistically rare sudden unexplained death is in healthy adults, raising doubts about the defense's plausibility.
  • “In 100,000 cases of deaths in an adult that is Latin or white…the probability is like a 0.16 probability that that happens.” (14:03)
• Expert Witnesses: For the defense to work, they need an expert who can plausibly support sudden unexplained death, even with no body or autopsy.
  • Allison: “That’s an interesting evidentiary question…how is this expert, who has no body…going to explain that and make it believable?” (17:46, 42:56)

4. Risks of Defendant Testifying

• Witness Stand Hazards: Putting Walshe on the stand is deemed incredibly risky, as prosecutors would challenge him on his lies, his history of fraud, and press for the location of Anna's body.
  • Treasle: “He shouldn’t, because he is going to be skewered on the stand…as a defense attorney, you say, how in the world do I put him on?” (16:27)
  • “If I’m the prosecutor, I say, all right, you chopped her up. Where is she? ...He can never tell them where the body is.” (37:37)

5. Motive & The Importance of Context

• Potential Motive: The prosecution is expected to argue that Anna was having an affair, planned to leave Brian, and there was a life insurance policy on her—potentially establishing motive.
  • Treasle: “If the prosecution can give them a why and they don't have a body, that's important.” (25:58)
• Jury Psychology: Jurors want an explanation for "why"; even when not legally necessary, motive shapes perception.
• Upcoming Testimony: Anna’s lover is expected to testify, which could be pivotal if he can credibly show that Brian knew about the affair. Otherwise, it might not materially help the prosecution.
  • Treasle: “…unless he says, she told me that she told him about the affair...that doesn't get the prosecution anywhere.” (33:43)

6. The Role of Presentation & Performance

• Attorney Impact: Charismatic lawyering can affect jury outcomes. Tipton’s opening, described as “extemporaneous” with “hands in his pocket, head down,” left a strong impression.
  • Treasle: “The lawyer's performance…matters”, and jurors talk about it during deliberations. (39:53)
• Prosecution Approach: The hosts noted the prosecutor’s dull, monotone presentation weakened the dramatic effect of the search evidence.
  • Amy: “It takes away from the inherent drama of the searches themselves.” (42:15)

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Notable & Memorable Quotes

• On the Defense’s Challenge:
  Allison Treasle: “You have the most damning searches I've ever seen in my life...That is tough stuff to overcome. But…you need one (juror). I don't need to convince everybody. I need to convince one.” (28:50)
• On the Power of Digital Evidence:
  Allison Treasle: “Maybe this is better than a confession because you can't even say it was a coerced confession, his searches. And he can't blame his 4 or 6 year old on it.” (44:36)
• On the Lack of a Body:
  Allison Treasle: “In Massachusetts, you don't need a body...they actually have a jury instruction about that where you don't need a body.” (30:59)
• On Jury Psychology:
  Allison Treasle: “Jurors always want to know the why…And if the prosecution can give them a why and they don't have a body, that's important.” (25:58)
• On Zealous Defense:
  Allison Treasle: “Everyone has a right to be defended. They do. And for our system to work, you deserve zealous advocacy. And that is what Tipton is giving him. Now, does that mean he's going to win? ...Not usually. But everyone has a right to be defended.” (24:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:03] Amy introduces the Brian Walshe case and guest Allison Treasle
• [04:49] Allison: Initial reaction to the defense’s “all or nothing” strategy
• [06:43] Detailed breakdown: What the prosecution and defense have – and lack – with no body
• [11:12] The significance of Walshe’s demeanor and the damning Google searches
• [13:33] TJ challenges Allison: "How do you overcome 'how to dispose of a body after murder' in Google search?"
• [14:03] Allison explains the statistical improbability of 'sudden unexplained death'
• [16:23] Should Walshe testify? The risks of taking the stand
• [19:44] Would Allison herself take such a difficult case?
• [25:58] The weight of search history evidence and motive in trial outcomes
• [28:50] Allison on owning the evidence: “You own it. You have to own it that he did it.”
• [30:59] Massachusetts law: no body, no problem?
• [33:04] Discussing upcoming testimony from Anna's lover
• [39:53] The impact of defense attorney Tipton’s presence in court
• [42:56] Looking ahead: Law enforcement to be cross-examined, questions about the defense expert
• [44:36] Allison: “These were probably the most damning searches you’ve ever seen ever.”

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Allison Treasle’s Perspective: The prosecution’s case appears overwhelming, but the lack of a body leaves a sliver of reasonable doubt the defense can target—albeit a very narrow one. The Google searches are uniquely damning, potentially more so than a confession.
• Dramatic, Complex Trial: The case is riveting, with legal, emotional, and psychological complexities. The rare defense strategy, the digital trail left by Walshe, and careful lawyering on both sides are all under scrutiny.
• Key Unanswered Questions: Can the defense stretch the absence of a body into reasonable doubt? Will expert testimony on sudden death make any real dent? How will the jury respond to unprecedented digital evidence?

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For listeners and true crime followers, this episode delivers an informed, dramatic, and detailed deliberation on a disturbing and highly unusual murder trial—one that exemplifies the strengths and stresses of the American criminal justice system.

Transcript

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[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Welcome everybody, to this episode of Amy and TJ Presents. It is day two of the Brian Walsh trial on this Tuesday, December 2nd. And TJ and I have a very special guest with us that we're going to introduce in just a moment to give us some perspective about what we had been seeing and hearing in this trial. But it's already been a heck of a day in court these past two days, babe.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

A heck of a day is if this is setting us up for what the next couple of weeks is going to be in this trial, then this is it is can't miss. This is a can't miss trial. It's difficult to talk about it and not a sensationalized way, but some of the things, just the idea of what he's accused of, what he's admitting to and how he's trying to explain this as a defense. This is fascinating.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

And for those of you, we'll give you a quick catch up. This is about a 50 year old husband and father of three who has been charged with first degree murder. His wife Anna's body has never been found, but get this, he's already pleaded guilty to dismembering her body, to disposing of her body and he's admitted to lying about it all to investigators, but he says he did not murder his wife. And with that, let's bring in renowned criminal defense attorney Alison Treasle. She may be a familiar face to some of you crime junkies who are listening right now, but she certainly made the rounds and knows her stuff. I got this fun fact about you, Alison. You have represented more than 1,000 clients in your decades long career who've all been charged with committing serious crimes. So I know this case almost certainly has had to have stood out to you.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yeah, I mean, first of all, this is, you're right, this is one of those cannot miss. Not just because the facts and the text messages and the type of relationship these people had. But then yesterday comes along and we hear a defense and TJ brought it up yesterday that you really don't hear often, but, but when you have nothing, this is an actual defense. This is a defense you only need one juror to believe. And my goodness, does it have legs. Well, the case is pretty bad. The pace is bad. And like you said, Amy, I've been doing this for 30 years. I handle really tough murder cases. And sometimes you feel like Sisyphus. You are, you are pushing that boulder up the hill. The ill. The hill is never going to stop. And any moment it can come crashing down on you. And when you look at the, the searches in this case, the lying to the police, the evidence that has been found, you say to yourself, what am I going to do? And Tipton has taken a horse poop of a case and turned it into something. Turned it into something.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay, you're talking about Tipton, his attorney, Walter's attorney.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

So.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

But we're. I don't want to get too deep into the evidence. Okay, just on the surface, tell me your reaction when you hear them lay out in court yesterday, My defense is rid of her body. And we're saying she died from just sudden, unexplained death. Now, the idea there, first of all, is that his only option, almost for def.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

I mean, look, look, you know, I, I heard other commentators who I will disagree with say, well, why don't you try and ask for a second degree murder? Why would you go all or nothing here? Why would you do that? And the reality is, not only do you have the things that you mentioned, all right, but he is now a convicted felon. He's known to lie. He. The kinds of evidence that they found against him is so damning. I mean, so damning. A hacksaw with her DNA on it. I mean, we're talking about facts that, that jurors shudder at the idea that you dismember your wife's body. Those kinds of things make jurors cry. I mean, make jurors hate the defendant. So what are we doing here? What he's doing is he's saying all those things are true. He came out and said the searches are disturbing. They're true. The lies to the police, they happened. He lied to the police. At some point, it's going to come out that he actually has pled guilty to it. I know there's some debate right now, but ultimately someone's going to open that door for the prosecution to walk through. That's what's going to happen. And so, so what you have is back to the basics, and that is they have no body. The motive, which all jurors want to hear, I think they've got a motive. I think that they're going to be able to establish that she was having an affair, he knew about it and she was going to leave him. And that is motive. That is all the motive that a jury really needs. Okay? He's got, they've got $100,000 life insurance policy where he's the benefactory, excuse me, $1 million. And he is, he has to pay that court a lot of money. Okay? So you have all of that, but you don't have a body. And the reason that's important is because when you're using a defense, right, that this was a natural death, if you don't have a body, you don't have a coroner to tell the jury what the cause and manner of death was. You don't have that. So if a, when you're saying, look, she died of natural causes and you don't have a coroner that can get up and say, absolutely not, she was strangled. Absolutely not before she was dismembered. There's X, Y and Z. And by the way, I'm not saying that they're going to win. I am. This is a very difficult case for the defense to win. This looks like by all accounts a first degree murder case. There is, there is evidence of premeditation here and certainly his actions of lying to the police and going to all these different stores and buying the hats on, buying all the cleaning stuff and the £50, you know, I mean, of a baking soda, that really is damning evidence. And Amy, you're shaking your head, but it's true. I mean, this is one of those cases where you go, this is as sadistic and cruel of a case as you could ever imagine. She is the mother of his three young children.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

And what is even more remarkable, as we've just been watching these past two days, is to hear Brian Walsh in those early days. First of all, he doesn't even, he's not even the one who reports his wife missing. But then when police come to investigate, to hear how good of a liar he is, because we now know he is a liar. His attorney said, my client lied. He lied to authorities, he panicked. But when you actually hear, and the jurors have been listening to Brian Walsh in the days after he dismembered his wife's body and disposed of it, how cool, calm and collected he is. He, I would have believed him. He was so believable. He didn't seem nervous or panicked or going into over great detail. He didn't seem emotional. How do like you heard some of this being played to the jury. You're a defense attorney. How do you combat that?

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Look, I, I'm sitting listening to these searches, okay? I mean, I'm sitting listening to these searches. So not. I mean, is it unusual for a defendant to lie to the police? Not at all. Not at all. I mean, that, that's, that's sort of par for the course, right? And I always say to people, look, I can't change what you've said in the past, but we're not going to speak to the police anymore. There's a reason people have a right to remain silent. I, I literally would muffle someone. I would say, we're not. You're not talking ever again, okay? You're. You, have you, you've done enough. And now, now we're not going to speak. But I really, today was so captivating because he's going over line by line, these searches. And you brought up a great point yesterday that that should not go unnoticed. And he used the word murder. And if I'm the prosecutor and I say, wait a minute, someone who innocently discovers that his wife is dead is not going to type in the word murder, are they? He didn't call the police. He didn't call 911. As the prosecutor said, don't leave your common sense at the door. Don't do it. You jurors come in and they're not. They come in with, with life experiences. They come in with a sense of decency and understanding and asking themselves, what would they do? What would be your immediate reaction? Would your immediate reaction be to call 91 1? Would your immediate reaction to see what you can do, to resuscitate her, to call the police or, you know, all of those things? Would it be, can you be charged with murder without a body? Can you identify a body with broken teeth? What happens to hair on a dead body? Those types of things are going to not only make the hairs on the jurors arms stand up and everywhere else they're going to say, who does this? Who does this? An innocent person behaves this way.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Is this a, to your point? Is this a done deal? How do you overcome.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

I don't think it is.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay, you don't think so? Well, how is it, Am I or you as a defense attorney, how do you overcome those messages you're talking about? Can you identify a body with broken teeth? He brought up some of the messages. Blood. How do you clean it off pavement, off concrete? He used the word murder several times. How to dispose of a body after murder. How are you as A defense attorney going to tell me in my common sense in my box.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yep.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

I'm supposed to take that as anything else.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Okay, so what Tipton did is he took the air out of the prosecution's tires immediately. Okay. First thing he does is he said he lied.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Yep.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

He did searches. He owns up to all of that. Okay, so that is not going to. In. In two or three weeks from now. That's not going to be shocking to them. Now the. The defense has owned it. They have owned it. Okay, so then your. The question is going to be, can he really prove this sudden, unexplained death? I did. In preparing for our podcast, I looked up sudden, unexplained death. And in 100,000 cases of deaths in an adult that is Latin or white, the ins. The probability is like a 0.16 probability that that happens. Okay, so they've got to find an expert who's going to say that, no, I have not examined the body, but I do believe that sudden, unexplained deaths from somebody who is a normally healthy person happen with enough frequency that it is believable. They've got to overcome the hurdle of, is their client going to testify to this? How are they going to make the nexus? Because there is a question, and this is specific to Massachusetts law, and it is. It is sort of a general idea for experts to be able to testify. They have to be able to. To explain that. That this is what happened in this case. In this case. And how did they do that without a body, without an autopsy and without their client testifying? So are they just going to speculate, and is a judge going to allow them just to sort of outline sudden death syndrome without some nexus to this case? That's an interesting question. That's an interesting legal question. That's an interesting evidentiary question of how this expert is going to be able to get this information in.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

You said that. Does he have to testify?

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

He shouldn't, because he is going to be skewered on the stand. And look, I don't think that that art fraud case is a nothing burger. I think that it shows a pattern for years of deception, of lies, of stealing from. Of doing bad things. I mean, here he was passing off forged artwork to people and essentially stealing from them. Jurors don't like that he was on house arrest when. At the time. So. So all of these things. As a defense attorney, you say, how in the world do I put him on? And can I put him on for the sole purpose of. Of talking about how he found his wife. Well, it doesn't work that way. The.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

The.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

The prosecution gets a shot at you, and when you testify, you don't get to selectively testify. You then open yourself up to a whole lot of hurt.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay, but, Allison, what do you do if you say you can't, if you don't have a body, and no expert can say they examined the body to have sudden death being the actual cause of death? He's the only one that can do this. So how do you do it if you don't want to put him on the stand? But he's the only one that can prove this point.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Okay, so there are ways. There are ways that. Welsh himself could not testify to the medical idea of sudden, unexplained death. He could not do it. Right. He's not an expert. The criteria for expert testimony in Massachusetts is found in evidence code section 702. And they can testify to their scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge that will help the trier of fact. In this case, the jury, understand the evidence and determine a fact in issue. It has to be based on sufficient facts or data. The testimony is dependent on reliable, reliable principles and methods. And then the last one is the testimony. The expert from the. Has to give testimony that is reliably applied to the principles and methods, to the facts of this case. And I think that is the issue. That's the issue that the judge is going to have to decide. Judge going to be able to say he can testify without Welsh, without a body, without examining a body, without examining the coroner's report, since there is no body, and without Welsh saying, well, this is what I found. Is the expert going to be able to testify to that? And even if they do, even if they do, is the prosecution going to simply get up and say, this is a bunch of poppycock?

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

You know, a potty. You don't have a. You don't have a coroner telling you what a manner of death is or a cause of death is. You've just simply made this up. So, TJ Is this the best case in the world? No.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Would you take it, Allison? Would you take this case?

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Yes.

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[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

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[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

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[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Look, I believe in the criminal justice system. I believe that everyone has a right to be defended. Amy, do I win cases like this? Not usually. Not usually, but everyone has a right to be defended. They do. And for our system to work, you deserve zealous advocacy. And that is what Tipton is getting him giving him. Now, does that mean he's going to win? Does that mean that he sits there as a defendant in a murder case and looks as smug as he does? I would be kicking him a few times under counsel table, just so you know. And I've done that.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

And I'm curious because, yes, there are cameras in this courtroom which we haven't seen for some time. A lot of these high profile cases we've been covering over the years, most of them do not have cameras in the courtroom. This one is really unusual and it's been riveting. We've been watching on Court TV now for the last couple of days. And yes, jurors, we get to see what jurors get to see. We get to see Brian Walsh sitting there listening to himself lying to police, listening to an investigator rattle off all of his Internet searches and see his body language and see how he's reacting, which is not been much at all. How do you as a defense attorney explain those searches? I mean, it has. I have never, and I know you obviously have a tremendous amount of trial experience. Have you ever. It's almost as if he was breadcrumbing the police.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

A road map.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

He left. He left an exact like from, from the timeline where his head was, what he was thinking about, how he was trying to cover up everything. It's almost as if we were there with him minute by minute.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Look, I've certainly had text messages, and I have a case, I have a murder case where text messages before the death are very valuable. They're very useful because they do talk about the state of mind of both parties at times. They do explain a relationship. They are a mirror into the mind and the soul of the individual that's doing those searches or sending those text messages. And here it is dark. It is very, very dark. And let me say that the Instagram search of the man that she was having an affair with will prove to be crucial, because if he knew that they had a relationship going back to what TJ said yesterday, motive, motive, motive. It's not necessary in a case. The prosecution never has to show a motive. But jurors always want to know the why. They always want to know the why. And if the prosecution can give them a why and they don't have a body, that's important. That's really, really important. And these text messages, these. I mean, I'm staring at them, you know, and you've got. What is the best state to divorce for a man? I mean, you know that he's thinking about these things. He's thinking about these things soon after she is not heard from. How long before body starts to smell? I mean, things like this, that. That talk about where his head is. I mean, his. Tipton can do as best of job as he can at tiptoeing around. He's frantic. He's frantic. He's frantic. These aren't just frantic. These are sinister.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

And they went on for hours. And some of them, like rapid fire. He was. They were showing with the timestamps of these. I want to ask you. I guess I'm. I'm putting you to the fire a little bit here in that I am so curious, because we couldn't figure out a way that anybody could defend this guy. But if the jury asks you, as the defense attorney for Brian Walsh, to explain his Google search, is it possible to clean DNA off a knife? The best way to dispose of body parts. And he looked up someone called Patrick Kearney, the Trash bag Killer. Now, if a juror asked you, Allison.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Those three things, is this before or after I crawl under my desk?

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay. All right.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

When is that? When is that okay?

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

If that's the best strategy, own it.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

You own it. You have to own it that he did it. And then in a. In what Tipton did. And I'm telling you, I have been doing these cases. I am a I am a crime junkie, okay? I love criminal cases. I represent criminals or alleged criminals all day. I watch Dateline. I know this stuff well. And what Tipton did, no matter what other podcasters are saying or legal commentators are saying, they do not understand the brilliance behind this defense. And I mean it. Is it going to work? Well, on one hand, you have the most damning searches I've ever seen in my life. You have 10 trash bags full of evidence. You have him going to Home Depot and buying hacksaws. And I mean, that is as bad as it gets, right? I mean, you're. You have. He. He is a. He is a bad criminal. He left the receipt, okay? He left the receipt. I mean, when they're getting. You know me, you talk about breadcrumbs. I mean, he might as well have just laid out all the evidence right there. That is tough stuff to overcome. But when you are defending somebody and it's a really, really bad case and you've given the jury. And you need one, T.J. you need one. Okay? I don't need to convince everybody. I need to convince one. And one person says, well, all of this looks horrible. All of it looks horrible. But they haven't told me how she died. What do you think response is?

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

He told me with the knife and the murder and the blood. Okay. Under the desk for.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

So you're my. You're my 11 of 12. You're my. You're in the 11 of 12.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Okay.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

And by the way, I am not saying that he's not going to get convicted. I mean, but I don't want people to think that this is a slam dunk for the people. They don't have a body. You don't have to prosecute with the body. And in Massachusetts, you don't need a body. And they actually have a jury instruction about that where you don't need a body. You have to show the circumstances that this person is dead and he's already admitted. And by the way, that's one way when it comes down to, has he pled to this? Has he. Has he pled to these two charges that it may come in? Because they don't have to. They have to prove that they're. That this person is dead. Okay? But at the end of the day, the prosecutors have to show that he killed her and that she didn't die of natural causes. Which, by the way, I gave you the statistics. Okay? I gave you the statistics. And they need to find an expert who's going to get up there and say, oh, yeah, this definitely happens. This happens. One of the things that I also did is I looked to see how other, how many other cases in Massachusetts were where sudden unexplained death has been used and hasn't been successful. And There is a 2008 case, Commonwealth v. George Naughty, and he's accused of murdering his mother. He, it wasn't a sudden death case, but he argued that his mother died of natural causes, specifically heart disease, and he was found guilty in the first degree. The crux of his defense was that she was not murdered but died of natural causes related to her heart. And it was outlined in the council's opening statement. He, he did very similar things like, look, you know, there were medical conditions. This can happen. Jury didn't believe it. It has been used. It was unsuccessful.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of defenses out there, including self defense and they very rarely work, as you know. I'm curious when it comes to the motive, you mentioned how important that is going to be, especially when you don't have a body. And we are expecting Anna's lover to testify in this case. What are you. I actually am on the edge of my seat waiting for that day when he takes the stand because that is going to be, I would imagine, a pretty tremendous day for the prosecution.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

I, I'm not sure and I'm going to tell you why I'm not sure. I'm not sure because he didn't know Brian Welch. He doesn't know what Brian Welsh knew about the relationship. So in terms of a motive, he can say, yes, we had this affair, yes, we kept it secret, yes, we did all of these things. But unless he says, she told me that she told him about the affair, I knew that this guy was cyber stalking me. This guy called me, this guy, you know, she was planning to leave. She told me that she told him she was planning to leave all of those things. He may say we had an affair, but he said, she said, I'm never leaving my husband and let's not tell anybody about it. That doesn't get the prosecution anywhere.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

They don't have a body. How do they prove she's dead? How do they prove how she died? I guess.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Well, okay, so that's the thing. Right? So. So he pled. Right, he pled. And they're going to have to. That's why I was saying that, that those guilty pleas. And I want to talk a little bit about that because it's really fascinating to me that they sort of bifurcated this case and had him plead guilty to certain things and not others. And maybe they were hoping that by pleading guilty to that, it wouldn't become a central focus of the case. And the judge has not made that ruling yet on how much of that comes in. But unless I had, and this is where I may have done things differently, unless I had a, a stipulation or an agreement that those were not going to come in as, as evidence at some point that they were not going to be thoroughly discussed that guilty plea. I, I'm, I'm struggling a little bit because they've owned up to the fact that he lied, right? They're, they've owned up to other parts of this case. So the, the, Is it going to do him any favors by pleading guilty? Is it something that they can just gloss over now? I'm not sure. We have two more weeks of this case to go. And the prosecution does have to prove that she's dead.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Okay, but how do you go about proving how she died? If everybody's assuming, yes, she's dead, but how isn't that a key part of the case to prove how she died?

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

That's my point. That's my point. There's two separate issues here. One, is she dead? Okay. Which he admits to hacking her up and, and dismembering her. He admits to that. But the prosecution for a first degree murder has got to explain that he killed her. He. They've got to explain the cause and manner of death. That's why Tipton, that's why Tipton had. I mean, Tipton had one of the greatest days of his career because he has a stinker of a case. And we're talking about it now. Yeah.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

And what made headlines is how do you have a client? How do you have a man admit to dismembering. Dismembering and disposing. Disposing of your wife's body and completely misleading investigators into sending them on this massive search and manhunt for your wife, who you already know is dead because you admit to disposing of her body. That is a crazy thing to admit that. But then to say, but I'm not guilty of murder. That was the first thing that caught our eyes, obviously, when this case came.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Out, by the way, I had a middle of the night thought about this case and I thought, and it was this. One of the problems with Brian taking the stand is if I'm the prosecutor, I say, all right, you chopped her up. Where is she? Where is she? Now, the thing is, he can't Ever tell them where she is? Because if they can find her and if they can do an autopsy on her, no matter how badly decomposed she is. And we see this in the David case, right, where they're saying she had been her bodily, her bat, her body was badly decomposed. But the coroner is able to piece it together. And we have that with a lot of old cold cases where they exhume bodies and do all of that stuff. If they do that, what if they find what the manner of death is? What. What if they find that it was actually strangulation or it was a gunshot or it was, you know, it was cuts to all of those things, he can never tell them where the body is.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

So he can't get on the stand. He absolutely cannot.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

No, no.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Isn't that question one from the prosecutor? What about it?

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Because how can he admit to having.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

And what's the first thing he's going to say? I'm not telling you. I don't like that question. Next.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

And the judge is not going to allow that. Okay, last. This would be the last thing for me, actually. And this, we talked about this a lot with the Diddy case. Even though there were no cameras, we got a sense of just how good Mark Agnafillo was. We got a lot of reports about his personality. And even the jurors were laughing and whatnot watching the opening statements and watching the trial today. The prosecutors, look, they have their own tone, but it's not necessarily entertaining. It's not one that's going to make you jump out of your seat. And one of the prosecutors today, she was even questioning in such a way that it was dragging and she was not keeping up with her own notes and.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Right.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

But to your point, Alan Tipton got up yesterday, the first words out of his mouth, and I shouted into robot. This dude is going to be a star for the next two weeks. Hands in his pocket, head down, speaking extemporaneously. How big of a deal is it to have a Tipton and his personality in that courtroom of his trial?

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

All right, I'm going to tell you an important story about it, but I'm going to tell you that the prosecution, she was monotone and she shouldn't have been, because I would have been. Wait a minute. He did a search on is it better to throw crime scene clothes away or wash them. I would have emphasized crime scenes. So the jury heard that. Now, the answers. The answers may be enough, and their case may be enough, but this is the story that I'm Going to tell you, I was president of the Criminal Court Bar in Los Angeles. And we, you know, we've had great speakers, but the best speaker we ever had was a sign language interpreter. And the reason that she was the best speaker we've ever had is because the only people that are ever allowed into a jury room while they're deliberating are sign language interpreters. Okay. And so she had a front row seat to hundreds and hundreds of jury deliberations. And you know what she said, they talk about she. The clothes that people wear, how the defendant is saying smug or smiles or, or looks guilty or cries, and the lawyer's performance. The lawyer's performance. So to answer your question, it matters. Now, there may be so much overwhelming evidence that the prosecution can stay monotone and it is their job just to present the facts. We all, I mean, look, prosecutors aren't known to be flashy. That's not their M.O. and I get it. But she missed key points today when she's going through the most damning part of their case. I mean, how are you not talking about can you throw body parts away? You know, can you put body parts and ammonia? Like, I would have repeated it and I would have emphasized those, those, those searches that are so best ways to dispose of a body after a murder. That's what I would have done. Yes.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

It's so interesting to have her be reading the page number, then get lost, then be flipping. It takes away from the inherent drama of the searches themselves. And now I'm feeling befuddled and confused. And it really does take. Take away some of the significance. I told. We were both saying that today, listening to that. So this trial still had. They said two to three weeks. We're only on day two. What are you looking. I don't want to say looking most forward to. But what are you looking to in this trial that you think will be the moment? I mean, for this person who right now, obviously we have no legal expertise. But I'm already like, I feel like you could rest your case after today.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

What, what else are we going to be? I'm going to be interested in how the defense cross examines any law enforcement that was. That touched the Karen Reed case. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to be very interested in that because they're going to hammer them for that. They're going to hammer him for that. Okay. I mean, we all know in Massachusetts that was a black eye on law enforcement, the entire case. Okay. So any law enforcement officer, you already have one who was in charge of collecting some evidence. Okay. So I'm going to go after them for that. I want to hear what this defense attorney Tipton is going to do with them because that is something that is fair game that you're going to talk about. Okay, that's number one. But I'm also very, very keen to hear. I don't think that Brian, well, should testify. So I'm not, I'm not going to address that until we know whether or not he is. But I want to know what the defense's expert is going to say. And that's not going to come for weeks. It's not going to come for weeks. But my goodness, how is this expert, who has no body, who has no autopsy report, who has nothing but the word of someone that's not going to testify, going to explain that and make it believable? Wow.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Well, we will be watching and listening as well. Alison Treason, we so appreciate your perspective on this. And actually, I, I cannot believe what we're hearing already. So I know someone as seasoned as you also saying those searches were probably the most damning searches you've ever seen ever.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

We'll try. Ever. I mean, other than a confession, other than a written out. I mean, maybe this is better than a confession because you can't even say it was a coarse confession, his searches. And he can't blame his 4 or 6 year old on it.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Good point.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Exactly.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Exactly.

[TJ (Podcast Host)]

Great point.

[Amy (Podcast Host)]

Well, we would love to check back in with you because we know you're watching just as for Feverishly as we are and so many others following this case. But Allison Treel, thank you so, so much for being on the podcast and we certainly hope you come back soon.

[Allison Treasle (Criminal Defense Attorney)]

Have a great day, everybody.

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