← Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
The Brian Walshe Verdict: “We Find the Defendant Guilty of Murder in the First Degree”
00:24:29
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Ed Helms
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Amy (Podcast Host)
Welcome everyone to this episode of Amy & TJ Presents. It is Monday, December 15th, and wow, we certainly got a verdict today quicker than expected. Uh, at least on where we stood. And not the verdict that you.
- [03:06]
TJ (Podcast Host)
And I predicted, T.J. uh, no, I was a little surprised how quick it was and what they finally came back with, given that they had another option. But we have been itching. Alison Driesel, she's been with us the last couple of weeks. Our, our defense attorney, our expert. Uh, let's get your reaction. And I, I, I mean that for the past week, every time something happens, we want, ooh, I wonder, Ooh, I wonder what Allison thinks. And we were tech, we were actually texting you, and you were in the middle of a case. And I said, please, I was.
- [03:34]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
In the middle of a murder.
- [03:35]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Case. I was like, go, focus. This is nothing. One case at a time. But, Alison, good to see you again. Just first, you guys, your reaction to the Walsh.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Verdict? Okay, as we started, when we started this, I said, this case is a stinker. This case is a stinker. Okay. So we started from a place where I said, this is a slam dunk for the prosecution. Then we get this very surprising defense in opening. And the defense was essentially, yes, he lied to the police, he dismembered his own wife, but he didn't kill her, and there is no body, so they will not have a manner and cause of death. Okay, so they took a nothing in, turned it into something for the defense to present to the jury. It was an all or nothing, essentially, because you either believe that he killed or you didn't. They didn't say. And they could have said that he learned that night. They had an argument, things went away, and he didn't mean to kill her. They were getting into it, and they were shooting for a second degree murder. They didn't do that. They went all or nothing. They. And even though there was a jury instruction, and I know that we went over this, I said, look, they're going to add things at the end. And they did include a second degree. Well, at the end of the day, and because the prosecution's closing was not that powerful, but at the end of the day, they had the facts and they had the law on their side. And it is nearly impossible to get over those kinds of searches. Those kinds of searches. And I think Tipton did the very best with what he had, with the cards he was dealt without folding. Right. I mean, he did the best that he could. But I took a look at what, no matter how strong their closing was, this Is the people. They had the facts. They had these horrible searches. They had a motive. I did believe that they proved that he knew about it. I did believe. I found it shocking that the prosecution didn't spend more time. I think her closing was 38 minutes. That she didn't spend more time on the fact that Brian Walsh. Absolutely. I would have argued he absolutely knew about the.
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Amy (Podcast Host)
Affair. How do you think he proved that? How you think. Sorry. How do you think the prosecution proved that? I'm.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Curious. The fact that Brian Walsh called him looking for his wife after she allegedly disappeared. It would have been very weird to me, and I would have made it a central theme that why this guy? Why would he call this guy who. If he didn't know anything, you know, oh, he knew. They knew they had a crush. Well, I think there was much more to that. I think that he was well aware, and it took common sense, and they kept getting back to common sense. Common sense. He called him. He called him and said, where is my wife? You call people close to her, very close to her. So I thought that that was pretty compelling. I really did. And she had talked about it with her friends, and I don't believe that whole idea that the mother. The mother apparently had hired this P.I. and, oh, you know, my mom had this dream or she went to somebody to talk about it. That wasn't believable. That just wasn't believable. And when you're talking about life circumstances, even though you tell a jury, you know, leave it at the door, just listen to the facts of the case. I think that that friend that testified at the end was very, very compelling. And she said, look, my. My friend was upset, and there were problems in this marriage, and he owed a lot of money. So they don't have to prove motive, Amy. They don't have to, but they certainly. She was having an affair. There was marital strife. I mean, for Tipton to get up there and say, this loving couple. This loving couple. I think he sold it a bit too hard. I think he sold it too hard. Um, but I also. I also loved the part where they talked about him purchasing the antibiotic ointment and the band aids before he goes to buy the cleaning supplies. That was that hit for me. That resonated for me. It means that he was injured before the.
- [08:18]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Dismemberment. You know, you just made a point about them overplaying their hand on the love part, being a loving couple. It was something we talked about, Allison, that he said in the closing argument, that there's the only things there's evidence of is love. Right. Talking about the relay. The only evidence is of.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Love.
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Amy (Podcast Host)
Right. It was a huge overstep that.
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TJ (Podcast Host)
I thought that was a bit.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Much. He went too long. And what he did is he. He really fed into the prosecution's hand. And I've been a Tipton fan because, I mean, they took a nothing case and. And he had this really bold defense. Of course, the problem was that. And he did kind of tap dance on that line a little bit. Their client didn't testify, so there was nobody to say that I found her in the bed. Right. There was no one to say it. They didn't call their own medical expert. And the medical expert for the prosecution did go to places like, yes, this happens. And I did feel that the prosecution should have hammered home how rare it was. I wanted numbers. I wanted. So in your 1500 autopsies, how many people died of this sudden, unexplained death? I wanted that. But they gave the. They gave the jury enough to use their common sense. And those videos of him disposing and really doing all he could to crowd. There's tracks. The phone being off was a big deal to me. Telling people the phone was off, that like, 18 digit code that no, child, I would never remember that password code. Right. So that, that whole unlocking the phone with that long. Are you two looking at each other? Because you.
- [10:12]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Agreed. Yes, we.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Agree. I mean, yes, children are great, are really way more techy than people our age, but that code was not 1, 2, 3, 4. I mean, it was, you know, it was like an entire state zip code plus a phone number, plus, I mean, it was too much. So you knew it was him that was unlocking the phone. And like I said in the beginning, premeditation does not need days, months, hours to form. It can be formed very quickly. And so it was. I mean, and the searches, the searches were so bad. And he used the word murder and he used the word crime. And I did think. I didn't. Her tone, the prosecutor's tone, it was a little too monotone for me. I would have been hitting harder. I would have been more, you know, really saying, this man has lied repeatedly to you. He's lied throughout his life. He lied about the. The case, the forgery case. He lied to the police. Why wouldn't he lie to you? Of course he's lying to you. But maybe that's more dramatic style. But she did hit the key points. She did hit the key.
- [11:30]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Points. Yeah. Alison, we were scratching our heads the whole time wondering why she wasn't choosing to be more effective, because she certainly, it was almost as if she was making a choice to be monotone. She was making a choice to be unemotional. She was making a choice not to follow through and actually help the jury connect the dots. I was frustrated watching what she left on the table. It was funny, even at the closing arguments, when we were looking at each other, when Larry Tipton said, the only evidence here is love, when she got up, the first thing I would have said, said, evidence of love. If this is what love looks like, and then start reading the searches again. I mean, I would have taken what he left right there and just ran with it. I was surprised she.
- [12:13]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Didn'T. I, I, I wanted more visuals from her. I wanted like a chart that walked through every search bolded. I wanted a chart that said he hacked his wife up into pieces. Like, I, I wanted that kind of visual. But at the end of the day, they had a very good case. They had a very good case. Amy, most people do not search for how do you dismember a body? And, and, and if you're a juror and you're hearing that now, what, what was interesting was the rulings that the judge made. And I don't think they're going to get very far on appeal. But I want to, I'm going to talk about that in a second, is she made the decision that the jury would not hear, that he already pled to it, that the jury would not hear it. Right. And I, we had talked about, the only way it was really going to come in is if he testified. Right. So on appeal. And we get, let's talk a little bit about the sentencing. This is an automatic, what we call an lwop, so life in prison without the possibility of parole. She's going to add time to it. She's going to add time to it to the accounts that he has already pled to, which from my understanding, is somewhere. Because she's going to find all the enhancements, you know, lying to the police when you know they're investigating a murder. So she's going to add on as much as 30 years to the life in prison without the possibility of parole. And your listeners are saying, well, if you're getting life in prison without the possibility of parole, why on earth are you adding more time plus, you know, plus the time in the federal case? And here's the reason. If, for whatever reason this case gets overturned on appeal, he's still going to be in custody. It is very, very difficult to overturn a charges that you pled guilty to. It's very, very difficult. So for whatever reason, and his appellate attorneys, who are not going to be his trial attorneys, the trial attorneys will probably do a motion for a new trial and they'll argue things like, you know, improper rulings that the judge made on the bench. They're going to argue that think certain things were present prejudicial. But for his appeal on the murder case, you always see an ineffective assistance of counsel claim. And so the people that try the case, who are really trial attorneys and autopilot attorneys anyway, you don't want to preclude any potential issues that they have on appeal. So normally it's another set of attorneys that are going to be the ones to file an actual appeal as opposed to a motion for a new trial, which this trial team will probably, probably do. But I. They came up with something. They came up with something for us to talk about. They came up with something for the jury to talk about in Massachusetts. It's very interesting. And you guys talked about how quickly this verdict was reached in Massachusetts, as opposed to a state like California. They do not take a straw poll before the. They do not take a straw poll, right. When they go in to deliberate in other states, they do here. They're specifically instructed, go through the evidence, talk about the evidence before you take a poll, knowing where everybody else.
- [15:58]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Stands. Is that why? Because I want to ask you about the timing. It's not an exact science or a science at all, really, trying to predict what the jury is going to do. But what did you make of it being six hours that they came back and then knowing that it was first degree. Now, what do you make of the time at.
- [16:18]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
All? Well, I think that. I think that part of it is the way that Massachusetts instructs juries not to take a straw poll beforehand. So they have to actually deliberate. Because in a lot of cases, you take a straw poll, right? They say, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that's when you get those jury, you know, those, those verdicts back in, you know, in less than an hour. I've had a jury deliberate where it was in Orange County. I hadn't even made it to the 5 freeway yet, and there was a verdict on a murder case, you know, so I'm like, wait a minute, you didn't even have time to hand out the pencils and we're getting a verdict. So the only thing I make of it is they had a weekend. They had a weekend. And even though none of them were allowed to talk about the case. Certainly they thought about it. Right. Each of them thought about the case. And it wasn't a lot of time that they spent deliberating. It was a shorter trial than we all predicted, than the judge predicted. But the key witnesses there said what they had to say. Right? They said what they had to say. And if. And that jury thought all weekend about the searches and him going to Lowe's and him going and buying 50 pounds of baking soda. So. And. And the idea that at the end, he didn't even give them a place to go and visit their mother. He chopped her up. He chopped this woman up. God, that's tough evidence to overcome. Really.
- [17:52]
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Tough.
- [17:52]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Yeah. Is there anything the defense missed? Is there anything as a criminal defense.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Attorney? Yeah, he overstated his. He overplayed his. At the end, he should have said, no body, no manner of death, no cause of death. We are left with a question of how did this woman die? He overplayed his hand. I would have stayed away from the love. Love. Love, not so much. She had told at least two people that testified that there were marital problems. She was having an affair. I would have let that go. I would not have used it as a central theme of the.
- [18:32]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Closing. Should they have called any.
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Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Witnesses? I wanted to hear from their medical examiner. I wanted to hear from their medical examiner. I mean, the prosecution's medical examiner. They felt. And that's one of the things I think, that they're going to argue on appeal is he. They can't argue about the him not testifying. Right. They really can't. Because. Because the judge specifically asked him, is this your decision? Is this your decision not to testify? But they over promised at. During their opening. They over promised. And when he didn't testify, there was no one to say what actually happened to her. What actually happened to her. And now he would have been. Tj. You're like, he cannot testify. We talked about this because the first thing I would ask is, well, where's her body? Where's her body? And then it would have gone on from there. Right. So when you were hacking her up. Okay. In your home, with your children. Home. And by the way, it also resonated when she said he used his children to lie to the police. Things like that get you. They get you. That affects jurors.
- [19:48]
Kalpen (Kal Penn)
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- [23:52]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Fossil.Com. The line Is this something that, I mean you can't avoid? I'm trying to remember his line. He said you.
- [24:06]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Cannot passion use.
- [24:09]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Passion, sympathy for her and anger to. For him.
- [24:13]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Right. He uses that, I'm sure in.
- [24:15]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Every case, but he seems like he knew what he was up against. Do you think a juror can't help but bring anger and sympathy and emotion and passion and whatever else after what they just sat through and heard for two.
- [24:26]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Weeks? That's why I said it and that's why the judge repeats it and that's why it's a very, it's a very important jury instruction because you need to be able to put that aside and focus on the evidence that you heard in the case. But we all know that people bring their own thoughts and passion and prejudices and real life experiences to every single event that they're experiencing. So you can't ask them to check all that at the door because that's not human.
- [25:02]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Nature. Alison, I want to ask you what you're expecting to hear on Wednesday. So Brian's sentencing hearing is on Wednesday, but the judge made it very clear she would rearrange what she needed to to make sure she got those victim impact statements, that part of sentencing and that part of the trial. What are you anticipating? I was trying to imagine if, I mean we haven't seen any emotion from Brian Walsh whatsoever. Not when the verdict was read.
- [25:29]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Never. I was watching his reaction when the, when the verdict came in. Nothing. Nothing. But he was stone cold when he was talking to the police. He was stone cold when he was buying the supplies. So. But you know what's interesting is normally you hear from family members, right? You hear from family members. So are we going to hear from Anna Walsh's family? I don't know. I don't know. We know that her mother has been ill and lives out of the country and the children through DCF or whatever that, you know, that, that Matches Juices has, is going to issue a. They're going to have a statement from them, but they're young. They're very, very young. We're going to hear from, I'm sure we may hear from Mr. Fausto, we may hear from her best friend, we may hear from Mr. Mattu, and they're going to be impactful. They're going to be impactful. But what we're not going to hear is the statements from the children and what they have lived and what they have been going through. And that's going to move the judge for.
- [26:41]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Sure. Could Brian, Could Brian speak at this? We were, TJ and I were talking. We thought he could.
- [26:47]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Right? Absolutely. Here's his problem with speaking. He can't own it. He can't accept responsibility because he closes the door to his.
- [26:57]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Appeal. Okay. But at this, nothing the judge is going to hear. The sentences are pretty much set, are they.
- [27:06]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Not? The first degree murder is said. It is life in prison without the possibility of.
- [27:13]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Parole. Remind people why this is always. Even though we know he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison if the sentence goes through, why this is always important, an important moment, an important day to have victims, friends, family, be able to speak in court like.
- [27:30]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
This. It reminds. First of all, it's very therapeutic for, for them. Very, very therapeutic for the victims. They should have a say. You know, it's. It's the state that's prosecuting you, not the individual person. So it's their moment to face in this case, Brian Welsh, and tell them what, what he took from them, what their life has been like without her. And, and say things like, I want you to understand that for the rest of your life you get to live. You're going to be alive. She will never celebrate another Christmas. She will never see her children again. We will never get to laugh with her, call her. And the pain that his actions have caused, that is A. That is. That is very, very important if there's to be any healing for friends and family that this was more than just a murder case. There's a real person behind this. There's a real victim. And the ripple effect that it had on the community and the people close to her, that's always so incredibly important. So the judge knows that this isn't just like any other case. This is a case that someone who they loved and adored has been taken from them. So that is extremely important. And. And in many states, it's a requirement. It's a requirement that, you know, in, like, Marcy's Law, where victims have a chance and an opportunity to be heard. So it's extremely important part of our system that the victims get a voice. They get to have their own.
- [29:12]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Voice. All right, Allison, we. We actually thought we'd be talking to you longer over the next couple of.
- [29:20]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Weeks. Well, we, you know, and we thought, look, we thought the case would. Would be much longer. I was surprised at how quickly the prosecution was. Was sort of ripping through their case. And then we hear that the defense is going to present no defense at all, which, by the way, I'll talk a little bit about that. And that is that if Brian Walsh is going to attack any of it, he may say, well, they might. My attorneys chose not to call any witnesses. Yes, it was on me that I didn't. But that was a decision that they made. So I'm going to attack that. They're going to attack the judge's ruling. They're going to attack that evidence didn't come in. I am curious whether they believed that the judge was going to tell the jury that he had already pled to the dismemberment or, you know, the, the body and the line to the police. And did they think that that would change the verdict? And then ultimately, what are we going to hear from the jurors? And is there anything that the defense is going to be able to pick apart and what. In their.
- [30:27]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Deliberations. More to.
- [30:30]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Come. More to come. It's always so fascinating to hear the jurors and their mindset and what it was like during those deliberations and state to state, as you pointed out, it's very different what that looks like. But how's your murder trial going, by the way? It's.
- [30:47]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Going. I. I love analyzing other people's.
- [30:51]
TJ (Podcast Host)
Cases.
- [30:51]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Nice. I have lots and lots to say. I never talk about my.
- [30:56]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Own. Ah, very smart. That's why you're a great criminal defense attorney. One of the best in the.
- [31:01]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Business. Have a wonderful day you all. Happy Holidays. If I don't see you, Happy.
- [31:06]
Amy (Podcast Host)
Holidays. Happy Holidays. Allison, thank you so much. We appreciate.
- [31:09]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
You. Absolutely. You all too.
- [31:12]
Kalpen (Kal Penn)
Bye. Hey audiobook lovers. I'm Cal.
- [31:20]
Ed Helms
Penn. I'm Ed.
- [31:21]
Kalpen (Kal Penn)
Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook.
- [31:30]
Ed Helms
Club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests. To discuss the latest and greatest.
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Kalpen (Kal Penn)
Audiobooks from audible, listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app.
- [31:48]
Ulta Beauty Announcer
Today. Hear that? It's holiday cheer arriving at Ulta Beauty with gifts for everyone on your list. Treat them to fan favorite gift sets from Charlotte, Tilbury and Peach and Lily. Go all out with timeless fragrances from ysl, Ariana Grande and Carolina Herrera. And you can never go wrong with an Ulta Beauty gift card. Head to Ulta Beauty for gifts that make the holidays brighter and even more beautiful. Ulta Beauty gifting happens.
- [32:15]
Fossil Announcer
Here. Get festive with Fossil this holiday season. As a proud sponsor of Jingle Ball, Fossil has unforgettable gifts for everyone on your list. Surprise them with a limited edition watch designed in collaboration with Nick Jonas. Inspired by Nick's distinct personal style, every timepiece in this collection is a standout. Expertly crafted with statement shaped cases, genuine stone dials and etched with limited edition numbering. You can also shop the Nick list for his favorite fossil gifts handpicked by Nick himself. Explore statement jewelry for everyone, coveted handbags, giftable wallets, and of course, timeless watches. From elegant Raquel for her to rugged Machine for him and meticulously made automatics, there's nothing like a Fossil watch and there's a style for everybody. Add a personal touch, customize their gift with free engraving and embossing, and don't forget to put yourself at the top of the gift list. Get decked out with party ready styles sure to wow the holiday scene. Shop it all now@ fossil.com Saks off 5th is revealing the season's most wanted holiday steals. Whether you're gifting someone on your.
- [33:26]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
List or treating yourself to a designer.
- [33:28]
Fossil Announcer
Score, find deals on McQueen, Valentino, Versace, Stuart Weitzman and more at up to 70% off every day, outshine at every event and outsmart your budget. From shimmer ready party looks to luxe layers and cozy giftable Accessories, Saks off 5th is your secret source for celebrating in style. Your holiday shopping mission starts now@saksoff5.com or a Saks off 5th store near.
- [33:52]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
You. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half the price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price, so that means half day. Give it a try at mintmobile. Com. Switch upfront payment of $45 for a free month plan equivalent to $15.
- [34:18]
Meaningful Beauty Announcer
Per month required new customer offer for first three months.
- [34:20]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network busy taxes and fees extra. See.
- [34:22]
Ulta Beauty Announcer
Mintmobile. Com this is an iHeart.
- [34:24]
Allison Driesel (Defense Attorney / Legal Expert)
Podcast. Guaranteed.