The Diddy Trial: Jury Deliberations Have Begun!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial

Episode: The Diddy Trial: Jury Deliberations Have Begun!

Release Date: June 30, 2025

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1. Introduction to Jury Deliberations

The episode begins with hosts Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes providing an update on the high-profile trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. As of June 30, 2025, the jury deliberations have officially commenced, marking a pivotal moment in a trial that has captured national attention.

Robach:
"Hey there, folks. It is Monday, June 30, and jury deliberations are officially underway in the trial of Sean Diddy Combs." [00:38]

2. Overview of the Trial Progress

Amy reflects on the journey of the trial, which began on May 5th with jury selection. Over the past two months, the jury has been exposed to over 34 witnesses, delving deep into the complexities of the case.

Amy:
"12 people, eight men, four women right now are deciding the fate of Diddy after hearing six plus weeks of testimony. Was it 35 witnesses total?" [01:05]
Robach:
"34." [01:18]

3. Diddy's Custody and Courtroom Dynamics

The discussion highlights Diddy's current status, confined to a holding cell near the courthouse, reading books as he awaits the jury's verdict. The hosts express a mix of curiosity and concern about his coping mechanisms during this uncertain period.

Robach:
"But to consider, folks, as we speak, Diddy is in a holding cell a couple of blocks from where we are recording with his books and waiting to find out if he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison or maybe a few years in prison or maybe be home by the fourth of July." [02:16]

4. Diddy's Behavior and Family Involvement in Court

Amy and Robach observe Diddy's active engagement in court proceedings, noting his interactions with his defense team and family members present in the courtroom. Diddy's demeanor appears focused, though the gravity of the situation is palpable.

Amy:
"In court today, racketeering. He actually, the judge went through the eight different potential crimes that could be a part of the racketeering and made it clear that Diddy had to have committed or they had to believe he committed at least two of them or with a co-conspirator within a 10 year period of time." [07:26]

5. Understanding Racketeering Charges

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the complex nature of the racketeering charges against Diddy. The hosts break down the eight specific crimes outlined by the judge, emphasizing the necessity for the jury to determine if Diddy committed at least two of these offenses in collaboration with another individual.

Amy:
"Exactly. You have to make sense really did he had to have committed, according to the jurors, had to decide that he committed two of these 10 crimes with someone within the last 10 years or within 10 years of each other." [07:46]

6. Drug Distribution and Legal Implications

The conversation delves into the intricacies of the drug distribution charges, exploring whether Diddy's actions constitute distribution under the law. The hosts debate the legal definitions and the judge's instructions, which deem the quantity and type of drugs irrelevant if distributed with intent.

Robach:
"If two people, if you and I take. Go to who I want to name somebody, we got. I don't want to name a real person. But then. Oh, Joe Schmo. Okay, let's say you and I go buy drugs from Joe. No, you go buy drugs from Joe because I asked you to. And then you bring those drugs to me, and I say, thank you, Robach. And then I go give one pill to a friend of mine because they asked for it. I am now a drug distributor." [12:21]

7. Defense Strategies and Witness Credibility

Robach and Amy discuss the defense's focus on challenging witness credibility. They highlight the judge's instructions that if a witness is found to have lied about any aspect of their testimony, the entire testimony can be disregarded. This strategy aims to undermine key prosecution witnesses like Brianna Bonglen.

Robach:
"That's something that the defense was trying to hammer home on their closing arguments. Yes. But the judge made it very, very clear, if you find that any witness willfully testified falsely, you have the right to reject the testimony of that witness in its entirety, even if you find them truthful or credible in other parts." [18:14]

8. The Emotional and Logical Burden on Jurors

The hosts empathize with the jurors, acknowledging the heavy responsibility they bear in determining Diddy's fate. They discuss the unanimous decision requirement and the potential length of deliberations, considering the trial's complexity and the jurors' diverse backgrounds.

Robach:
"I've been called to some jury duties. Never had to serve on a jury. This is just to have somebody's life in your hands. Civic duty is what we're all supposed to do. It's just. It's a lot because you can see sympathy with so many people. What do people deserve? What is fairness? What does the law say? What does my common sense tell me? What does my eyes tell me? What does my heart tell me? I don't." [23:18]

9. Anticipation of the Verdict

As the podcast concludes, Amy and Robach express uncertainty regarding the timeline for the verdict, speculating it may extend until July 4th. They reflect on the intricate nature of the charges and the jurors' daunting task of navigating through legal jargon and personal biases.

Robach:
"If I were a betting man, I would put it through fourth of July. If I were a betting man, I would put it through that." [24:39]
Amy:
"It's exceptionally confusing. That's why I, you know, look, this could. They could come back at any point, but it seems like it's going to take some time." [24:39]

10. Final Thoughts and Ongoing Coverage

The episode wraps up with the hosts reassuring listeners of their commitment to providing continuous updates on the trial's progress. They acknowledge the complexity and high stakes involved, promising to keep the audience informed as new developments unfold.

Amy:
"They will then send that message to the judge. And I'm. I believe the judge will then let the courtroom know who the foreperson is, or at least that they've found or picked, chosen a four person and are going forward from there." [21:19]
Robach:
"We will continue to wait along with all of you, and any notes, any. Anything interesting that comes out of the courtroom, we'll pop back on. So take a. At your phone, keep your eye on it, because we will absolutely be updating our Amy and TJ podcast feed with any new developments that will happen throughout the day today and for the days to come." [27:07]

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Notable Quotes:

• "If you find that any witness willfully testified falsely, you have the right to reject the testimony of that witness in its entirety." — Amy Robach [18:14]

• "This is just to have somebody's life in your hands. Civic duty is what we're all supposed to do." — T.J. Robes [23:57]

• "Every time I was listening to him reiterate or at least reading what he was charging the jurors with, it got more and more confusing." — Amy Robach [07:46]

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Conclusion

In this detailed episode, Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes navigate the multifaceted aspects of Sean "Diddy" Combs' trial as jury deliberations commence. They dissect legal definitions, defense tactics, and the emotional weight carried by jurors, providing listeners with an in-depth understanding of the ongoing proceedings. As the trial progresses, the hosts commit to delivering timely updates, ensuring their audience remains informed about this landmark case.

Transcript

[Amy]

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[Robes]

Hey there, folks. It is Monday, June 30, and jury deliberations are officially underway in the trial of Sean Diddy Combs. Welcome to this Diddy Update episode of Amy and TJ Robes. It's a little bizarre to think it's kind of over after we've been watching this thing so closely for two months. This thing started on May 5th with these jurors not even knowing. Knowing if they would be picked for the jury. They just showed up for jury selection. Jury selection two months ago.

[Amy]

And that's so wild to think. Yeah. 12 people, eight men, four women right now are deciding the fate of diddy after hearing six plus weeks of testimony. Was it 35 witnesses total?

[Robes]

34.

[Amy]

34 witnesses total.

[Robes]

You added another one. Who was the extra you threw in there?

[Amy]

I don't know.

[Robes]

Kanye did not testify.

[Amy]

He didn't count. But then to. They all sat for what, two hours this morning listening to the judge go over in detail how they are expected to deliberate on these five charges that Diddy is facing. And it is complex and it was even tedious hearing and at least reading what the judge was explaining to the jurors.

[Robes]

So as we're recording this, folks, this is. The jury just got the case they got. We'll get into the jury instructions in a sec. But they officially do have the case now. In the meantime, Diddy is not going back and forth. This is interesting as we speak. Diddy is not going back and forth from the jail in Brooklyn to the courthouse in Manhattan. While this is going on, he has to stay at the courthouse. I thought that was interesting. It's okay. You can take some light reading.

[Amy]

Yeah. He asked for some books to take with him in the holding cell with him as he waits. I mean, it's funny. Well, it's not funny, but it's interesting. I'm feeling nervous just waiting or anticipating what the jury is going to do and what they're going to think and how they're going to begin. Can you imagine what he's going to be doing? Light reading, maybe heavy reading. I'd like to know what books he's reading to distract himself or maybe try to take himself to another place while his fate is being determined.

[Robes]

But to consider, folks, as we speak, Diddy is in a holding cell a couple of blocks from where we are recording with his books and waiting to find out if he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison or maybe a few years in prison or maybe be home by the fourth of July. That is not outside the realm of possibilities at all. But this morning, robes we're so used to. We were in. We actually in the car this morning when court first started and I was asking for you to look at the updates as I was driving and I was so ready for there to be a two hour delay. A juror has a transportation issue, a child care issue. I was waiting for something. This is one of the few days it seems in recent weeks that, you know, they just got started like they were supposed to.

[Amy]

Yeah. The judge started addressing the jury, I believe at 9:20. Beforehand we got a little bit of color from reporters who were there in the courtroom saying that Diddy came in and hugged his defense team. His entire family, his six adult children are there in court behind him or were there in court behind him along with his mother. And people just described. He was kind of seemed active, seemed engaged. But gosh, I just can't imagine.

[Robes]

That's always been the report like the whole time. They say this is a very involved client. Yes, but looking at jurors, sometimes we're not supposed to, but certainly engaged. Looking at the juror, looking at jurors engaged with his own. I mean his family members at time, members of his defense team, they say he takes notes, he passes notes, he fidgets sometimes. So he is obviously all that's on the line. You want to sit up and pay attention.

[Amy]

That is not surprising at all.

[Robes]

What about his family? I was surprised to hear, I can't remember which reporter did. Said the family's been passing notes.

[Amy]

Yes, I saw that too on a notepad.

[Robes]

I don't know. That's the first time I've seen that's been going on. I don't know if it's been going on all trial or not.

[Amy]

That's the first I heard. Maybe they had questions for the attorney they were passing up or at least what was to be expected today. Maybe they had questions about timing, all of that as they were waiting for the jury to come in and the judge to come in. But you know, this is. This morning was not an exciting event. It wasn't something where we were. We were expecting anything other than real specific language from the judge that had already been determined and agreed upon between both sides on Thursday of last week. So all of this that the judge read had already been preordained, so to speak, by both sides.

[Robes]

Fought over, it's fair to say they fought over every single bit of language. And as we talk about some of it here, you'll see why they had to get so specific. But I was surprised. I think I want to always want to give them credit. But the BBC reporter I believe was talking about what was going on in this non exciting event in the overflow room today. This is how uneventful it was. People were falling asleep.

[Amy]

She said that there was audible snoring in the overflow rooms. And I didn't realize this, but starting I believe last week they actually had to open up more overflow rooms. There are four overflow rooms now, I believe in addition to the actual courthouse. And that particular reporter from the BBC described this morning outside of the lower Manhattan courthouse as exceptionally busy. That people are starting to get excited or at least anticipate a potential verdict. And so there was. It was just a lot of buzzing and a lot of activity. A lot of folks wanting to get into that courthouse to be a part of it.

[Robes]

What was it? Did you say already one was knitting? Did you say?

[Amy]

Oh, I didn't say knitting. Someone was knitting too.

[Robes]

Yes.

[Amy]

You know, Diddy has light reading. One of the folks who wants to watch the. At least watch the jury come back or not today is knitting. Other people are sleeping. Your choice.

[Robes]

But the reason they were knitting and sleeping and audibly snoring is because the official term is called a jury charge. That's what happened today. Jury charge. You'll see that a few places. All that means is that the jury officially got their instructions. Instructions that Robes was just talking about that were kind of fought over by the attorneys. And he does ropes. He's come in. I've been a part. I've seen these before and I've been a part of like the defendant. But I have seen these and he is literally it is as if you are reading the instruction pamphlet from a TV or an electronic. He is reading every single line about what they have to do. And it does. It takes a while. You have to pay attention. I think some of the they were take. Well, they'll have a copy of the instructions back there with them. But you have to sit and pay attention because he goes through what legally some of these standards you have to meet to find somebody guilty. And that is the part that gets complicated and especially when you're talking about racketeering. And I think that is the one they spent a lot of time on.

[Amy]

In court today, racketeering. He actually, the judge went through the eight different potential crimes that could be a part of the racketeering and made it clear that Diddy had to have committed or they had to believe he committed at least two of them or with a co conspirator within a 10 year period of time.

[Robes]

Say it again for the people in the back.

[Amy]

Exactly. You have to make sense really did he had to have committed, according to the jurors, had to decide that he committed two of these 10 crimes with someone within the last 10 years or within 10 years of each other. See, we see it's so confusing. But here are the eight they have to find that he was guilty of. At least two of these crimes were with another person. Kidnapping, arson, bribery, forced labor, transportation to engage in prostitution, sex trafficking, witness tampering and possession with the intent to distribute controlled substances. And he got very specific about that last one about the drugs because he said it didn't matter how much drugs we were talking about or which drugs we're talking about, it just had to have happened with a second person and an intent to distribute twice. I mean, it's. I'm telling you my mind. Every time I was listening to him reiterate or at least reading what he was charging the jurors with, it got more and more confusing. That's why this is all written down and the jurors will each have a copy with them in the deliberation room. Because I imagine you would have to refer. I'm having to refer back to it. I'm having to say, wait now, which ones, in what time frame, with whom?

[Robes]

So he used that phrase a lot today, the Combs Enterprise. Because it needs to be an enterprise in order for them to find him guilty of racketeering. Again, this is the one he spent most of the time on today was explaining racketeering. So robes, so much of the debate was did they even establish that there was a Combs Enterprise, meaning all this stuff he was doing was personal. So there had to be one other person. So the other. It could be his drug mule, quote, unquote. Could it be kk, his chief of staff? Could it be his security guy? They had to Somebody, at least one of those people had to agree to commit two of these crimes with him. Did they?

[Amy]

That'll be for the jury to decide.

[Robes]

To think. You have to go. Okay, so think about the jury room. How long is this gonna take? All right, Kidnapping. Did he commit kidnapping? You have to say yes or no. They say, yes, he committed kidnapping. But did somebody else in his circle agree to do that kidnapping with him?

[Amy]

The prosecution would say Drock did when he took Capricorn Clark.

[Robes]

Capricorn Kid Cudi.

[Amy]

Correct.

[Robes]

Okay, so if that's the case, that's just one.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Robes]

Now we got to go through all the others. And then, and only then, can you say he is guilty of racketeering. If they decide, Robes, that's the case, that two of these were committed with Diddy, he's going to jail for the rest of his life.

[Amy]

Correct, baby. Because that. That. And that's the reason why it's the most complex of them all. And it's the one that carries the longest prison sentence. So up to life in prison.

[Robes]

It's that simple. If he is found guilty, he is going to prison for the rest of his life. Quite. Oh, my goodness. So. So, yes, it gets complicated. They spend time on that. Yes. Robes, to your point, they're going to have the jury instructions. They got a laptop with them that has all the evidence on it. They have a list of all the exhibits and they have a verdict sheet in there with them. And that's kind of it that they go in. Again, you mentioned as well, speak on the drugs for a second before we move on to this next thing about that we're getting into about disregarding a witness's testimony. The drugs thing, both of us, I think when it happened, the testimony was it Brandon Paul. I think we both were like, wait a minute, drug distribution? Is the jury really going to say this dude was distributing drugs, Diddy is a drug distributor because he told his assistant to come get him some drugs and then he gave one pill to Cassie for the. For the freak off. Is that drug distribution? Well, yes, according to the judge.

[Amy]

According to the judge, he said, yeah, the amount of drugs is irrelevant. That if at least two people agreed to distribute a drug from one person to another, then that falls into. Yeah, that. That's the burden of proof.

[Robes]

If two people, if you and I take. Go to who I want to name somebody, we got. I don't want to name a real person. But then. Oh, Joe Schmo. Okay, let's say you and I go buy drugs from Joe. No, you Go buy drugs from Joe because I asked you to. And then you bring those drugs to me, and I say, thank you, Robach. And then I go give one pill to a friend of mine because they asked for it. I am now a drug distributor.

[Amy]

Yep. According to the way the judge laid it out, that actually is the case. And so when we were listening to the prosecution, when we were listening to people, the assistants describe what they did for Diddy, that seemed like a slam dunk. I don't know.

[Robes]

Now, is that the place where you go into some common sense that a juror thinks. Wait a minute, he was. It was personal use drugs, which is what the defense said. Is a juror going to sit there and say, I am not going to send Sean Combs to prison for the rest of his life because he wanted to use personal drugs? That's. That goes beyond a legal definition. And that's where you talk about what you were saying that his attorney put on such a show.

[Amy]

So here's the other little sidebar that I noticed. Did you see or did you read, I'm sure you did, what the judge said to the jurors about intoxication, because this is what I think is very interesting when it comes to the drug use. So the judge specifically told the jurors before they went away for deliberations that being intoxicated is not a defense for committing a crime, but it can impact your intent to commit a certain crime, like racketeering. So this has been a huge part of the defense saying, hey, he was a drug addict. He needed to go to rehab. He knew not what he was doing because he was so messed up. He was out of his mind on drugs, he was out of his mind on alcohol. And so it's not a defense for the crime, but it could absolutely impact whether or not they believe he was a part of this racketeering.

[Robes]

What did you think about this part? I thought that was.

[Amy]

I thought that was huge as well. That's why I wanted to bring it up now when we're talking about the drugs. Because it's not just about distributing the drugs. He was taking the drugs.

[Robes]

I thought that. Look, I don't know for sure. I don't know if the judge, if it legally has to be in there, but I'm pretty sure his defense team was. I'm sure the defense rooting for that.

[Amy]

Was very happy to hear. That was one of the last things the judge told the jurors.

[Robes]

That's interesting to hear. So this is what I never heard. Does intent to Commit racketeering matter, do you have to have the intent to be a mob boss?

[Amy]

Seems like the answer is yes to that.

[Robes]

Then all this is out the window then, isn't it? To suggest that Diddy was running a enterprise for the purpose of committing. I am a huge music star and the purpose of all this is so I can have drug fueled sex nights.

[Amy]

Yeah, it's for pleasure. He, he, well, he was doing what he did for pleasure. Personal pleasure, sexual pleasure, drugs. You could say yes. He wants to be high, he wants to numb. So that's very different. So that intent seems to be very different. I don't, you know, I don't know how this jury's gonna figure this out. I really don't. Because even when you hear the judge clearly say what this is, what that is, there's still so much room for what you think, what you feel, what your experience is, what you would put on someone else, what you know you've personally done in your life. And would that be racketeering? And by the way, the judge just spoke, most people in this country would be guilty of racketeering. Then with drug use, I mean, even if it's just like a prescription pill, somebody needs a antidepressant, somebody needs a Xanax. How many people have just passed that stuff out? You know what I mean? Like, it's just, I think people bring in their own real life experiences to this too when they're judging. And this seems, ah, this seems so. There's so many gray areas. That's the issue.

[Robes]

And another key point the judge had today was if a witness lied about one thing, then hey, you can assume they lied about everything.

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[Amy]

Slimrank.com so what happened at Chappaquiddick?

[Narrator]

Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Amy]

Left a woman behind to drown.

[Narrator]

There's a famous headline, I think in the New York Daily News. It's Teddy Escapes Blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right that sort of tells you the story really became about ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president?

Kappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

[Amy]

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

[Narrator]

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Amy]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Robes]

We continue here on this Monday, June 30, the first day of deliberations now in the Diddy trial. As we speak, the jury deliberations have officially begun. And before they went in robes, of course, the judge gave them their instructions and a key part of the instruction. And this is something we heard his defense attorney talk about yesterday. But look, if you think one witness, if a witness lied about one thing, you can assume they lied about everything if you want to. That was a key point.

[Amy]

And that was something. Yes. That the defense was trying to hammer home on their closing arguments. Yes. But the judge made it very, very clear, if you find that any witness willfully testified falsely, you have the right to reject the testimony of that witness in its entirety, even if you find them truthful or credible in other parts. The judge is still instructing the jury that they have the right to then disregard every single thing that witness testified to. And so, because especially with that big Perry Mason moment the defense had when it came to the timeline that Mia was giving about whether or not Diddy actually dangled her over that 16th floor balcony on said date once.

[Robes]

That was Brianna. Brianna Bonglen.

[Amy]

You know what?

[Robes]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Wow.

[Robes]

Yeah, it's a lot of.

[Amy]

Thank you.

[Robes]

A lot of names. Brianna.

[Amy]

That was Brianna Bonglen. But that witness, it seems, specifically, if you are taking the judge at what he instructed you to disregard, certainly in that moment, that was not a true statement, and it was proven not to be true that he dangled Brianna from that balcony on that very specific date.

[Robes]

Did you speak of me? Why do I think Capricorn Clark had something, thought she got hung up or got caught in something that wasn't quite clear. Brianna Bonglin, obviously, was the big one. But the defense attorney, Mark Agnifillo.

[Amy]

Yes.

[Robes]

Finally got that right. Agniflo. Yeah. The trial is wrapping up. I finally got his last name right. But he made that point in closing. He made sure he got that in there. He said, the judge is going to instruct you on this tomorrow, but. Or on Monday, but let me tell you. But absolutely. So Brianna Bongley was a key. A key witness, not only because of what happened to her, but because of what she allegedly saw. Because of what she saw, did he allegedly do and how he behaved and even suggested he assaulted her. And then was she smoking a marijuana cigarette or was this a regular cigarette? Like there were little things in there. The days. How many days did she spend on the stand?

[Amy]

Multiple days. Multiple days.

[Robes]

That key prosecution witness, they might take all of her testimony and scrap it up and throw it out because they just say, ah, don't believe me. And the judge says, I got the right to disregard all of it.

[Amy]

And you know that the defense wanted that in there as well. It seems as though with the judge's instructions, the defense got a lot of what they wanted the jury to remember or at least told they were capable of doing when they went into that deliberation room, when they started to look at the evidence and really go. They have the transcripts. They can go back and actually see those moments where some of the witnesses might have been caught up in ambiguous testimony or at least testimony that maybe they later had to amend or change. And yeah, you just need one witness to say nep. I don't believe. I don't believe that.

[Robes]

And it goes. Oh, it all goes away. So the, the. What's next? Now for the next. I mean, we wait. We literally. This is. Okay. And now we wait.

[Amy]

We are waiting, but the clock is ticking. Yeah. The first thing that the jurors are supposed to do is to pick a four person. So they're supposed. We're waiting, I guess, for a message. They will. When they vote and they pick out their four person, they will then send that message to the judge. And I'm. I believe the judge will then let the courtroom know who the foreperson is, or at least that they've found or picked, chosen a four person and are going forward from there.

[Robes]

Yeah. And after that we are waiting for them to decide, for them to let us. Yeah. Two notes he asked for. He said, send me a note, let me know who the four person is. And what was the second one? Let me know what your schedule is going to be. He's asking them, when do you all want to stop deliberating? He said they can go until 5 every day.

[Amy]

He said they can go past 5pm.

[Robes]

If they'd like to say, I've certainly seen judges, I've seen juries like, get us the hell out of here. They still till 8 o' clock, 9 o' clock sometimes. Don't know. This jury could go until three because they've been going nine to three has been what the court's been. I don't even know how to guess that.

[Amy]

No. Because it depends on those jurors individual lives and what their lives are like schools out here in New York, finally, for the first time since they started deliberating, not sure if any of these folks are parents, but that could have a huge impact because up until Thursday, if they had kids, their kids were in school. Now those kids are out of school here in the New York City area. It's a late time to get out, but, yeah, it is crazy timing. And also of note, the judge sent the five alternates home and said, you can go home however you need to keep. They have to have a phone number. They have to be able to be reached at a moment's notice. They kind of have to be on standby, so to speak. And he actually did apologize to them. He said, I'm so sorry. Most of you will not be able to see this through to the deliberation process. And can you imagine, you spent that much time of your life watching, witnessing, probably forming your own opinions and then not actually getting to contribute.

[Robes]

I was waiting on you to say that out loud. And then I figured you'd come to the same conclusion I did. That's the best place to be. I got a front row seat.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Robes]

I got to experience history and see this. And it is. It'll go down in history, this trial. And then I get to go home and I don't actually have to vote and figure this out. This is just too heavy. That's. It's just juries, jurors. God love you. I've been called to some jury duties. Never had to serve on a jury. This is just to have somebody's life in your hands. Civic duty is what we're all supposed to do. It's just. It's a lot robes because you can see sympathy with so many people. What do people deserve? What is fairness? What does the law say? What does my common sense tell me? What does my eyes tell me? What does my heart tell me? I don't. No.

[Amy]

And then the dynamic of those other folks in the room with all of their different life experiences coming in, and then everyone has to find a compromise, because at the end of the day, this has to be a unanimous decision on all five of these charges. So, you know, some. Some cases are more complicated than others. And obviously murder trials, someone's life is truly on the line. But sometimes it's as simple as a murder charge or, you know, a first degree or second degree charge. This is so complicated with so many different types of charges that carry very different punishments. It's exceptionally confusing. That's why I, you know, look, this could. They could come back at any point, but it seems like it's going to take some time.

[Robes]

Be shocked if we get anything. You know, I. If I were a betting man, I would put it through fourth of July. If I were a betting man, I would put it through that. Unless they do some longer hours or if they want to get out of there, fine. But it is so step by step, 12 people we have to go through and listen to 12 people on eight different counts that only lead to the one racketeering count. I mean, it's, It's. I don't know. I don't know how they do it.

[Amy]

I don't either. I was trying to think about it as a parent, like just having a couple kids, trying to figure out what you want to do for the day or what food you want to order. It's. That's hard to get 12 people to agree on something this serious and this complex with the world watching. Knowing you're going to be questioned, knowing you're gonna have to sleep at night.

[Robes]

Which one takes less time? Which charge? Which one you think they would get through fairly quickly?

[Amy]

Well, I mean, I feel like the drug charge, but that's a part of the racketeering.

[Robes]

That's part of the racketeering.

[Amy]

See, that's a part of the racketeering.

[Robes]

I'm actually charged with kidnapping, charged with arson, not charged with drugs. But those underlying crimes go into the racketeering. That's crazy hell to think about. But the prostitution one is the one that. Because yes, he paid those guys, flew to where he was, and they ended up having sex with his girlfriend.

[Amy]

You would have to buy the defense's argument that he was paying for their experience and their time and not for their sex. And I think that's a hard one to believe because the video shows differently.

[Robes]

And so let's litigate the case here.

[Amy]

That's to.

[Robes]

For a second. Yes, this argument. Well, why don't you just shut down all escort services? What's the. Yes, we hired an escort. Escort. They're online cowboys for angels. Okay, I'm just hiring an escort. Why is that business legal and I'm supposed to put this man in jail for the rest of his life?

[Amy]

No, I, And I think that could Be a human reaction.

[Robes]

It's a human reaction.

[Amy]

It's not necessarily the legal one. Because I think if you look at the legal. Yes. Part of this seems like it's a fairly cut and dry issue that he absolutely paid for male escorts and Cassie and Jane to cross state lines to participate in sex parties. And he paid them for it, so that does. But he's claiming he only paid for their experience in time and the sex just happened to happen.

[Robes]

Everybody else who hires an escort, Right?

[Amy]

Correct.

[Robes]

You're hiring an escort. What happens after that? Hey, it's up to you. I'm just saying that. I see that. So the prostitution one seems to be. Look, he paid, they came have sex. Fine. But this is the one that is up to 10 years in prison. So it's the lesser of all the charges.

[Amy]

Right? I think the one. Yes, that. So that one seems like the most obvious one that they could come to a conclusion on, but who knows? Because look again, every juror brings their life experience into that deliberating room.

[Robes]

No guys in there.

[Amy]

Well, there's eight men and four women.

[Robes]

Hope none of them are frequent visitors to Cowboys for Angels or anything. Well, no, they wouldn't be, I guess. Right. Well, Cowboys for Angels, yes. But I'm still confused by that.

[Amy]

Cowboys for Angels. Angels for Cowboys. Cowboys for Angels, Yes. So anyway, we will continue to wait along with all of you, and any notes, any. Anything interesting that comes out of the courtroom, we'll pop back on. So take a. At your phone, keep your eye on it, because we will absolutely be updating our Amy and TJ podcast feed with any new developments that will happen throughout the day today and for the days to come. But in the meantime, thank you for listening to us here on this Monday afternoon. Hope you all have a good one. This is an I Heart podcast.