← Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
The Diddy Trial: Where Do You Stand on the Verdict? (It’s ok to be torn)
00:19:30
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- [00:00]
A
This is an Iheart podcast.
- [00:08]
B
Hey there, folks. Amy and TJ here. We're actually joining you just mid conversation. We have been sitting here going back and forth for about 20 minutes about what we wanted to talk about in this episode. Meanwhile, we just recorded a pretty good episode that wasn't recorded that would have been great if we were rolling on it, but we don't know what to do, folks. We're torn. I think we're recording this now day after day after the verdicts, and we're digesting it. Robes now. And you and I have been going back and forth about what we make of Diddy, what we make of victims, what we make now going forward of how we're supposed to view victims. And the way you put it, robes, any role they do play in the position they end up in. And is it, does that make it any less of a crime? Actually, this is a mess.
- [01:02]
A
It is. Because I think, look, Diddy might be the only winner from yesterday's verdict and he's still behind bars and he's going to serve some time. But I think everyone else lost something. And I know if you go online and you Google reaction to the Diddy verdict, you'll see and hear from a lot of women's advocacy groups, MeToo movements, victims advocates, and they all are. Well, many of them are outraged. They feel like this is set back back victims rights. This set back an opportunity for women to feel free and comfortable to talk about what happened to them, to even seek charges, to go to police to speak out about.
- [01:41]
B
We can't argue with all of that. Are they right?
- [01:44]
A
Do they feel silenced after this because he was not convicted of the crimes against the women who claim that they suffered under his abuse?
- [01:53]
B
So don't we all, and shouldn't we all share in their outrage? Should we all share in at least being in some, even if it's not outrage, but in agreement that it's some kind of a setback on such a high profile case when there's such a high profile abuser that we have witnessed literally on video that seemingly has gotten away with something.
- [02:18]
A
So here's my take and this is what we were discussing. Yes, you're right, it seems like he got away with it. Yes, it seems like he got away with it that he only was convicted for transporting male escorts across state lines to have paid sex with his then girlfriends. And it seems like he avoided facing punishment for what we all saw witness and what he even admitted to when it came to violence against Cassie, violence against Jane. But that was the prosecution, who created the situation that we're now all in, where we feel defeated or deflated expectations.
- [02:54]
B
They set the expectations correct.
- [02:56]
A
Because if here was my issue the whole time and seeing how it all unfolded, I actually feel even more angered by it. Why in God's name? And I understand there'll be a legal reason and a political reason, but come on. Why couldn't Diddy have just been charged with the crimes he actually committed, which was assault, domestic violence, illegal drug use? Those were things that he admitted. Those were things that were absolutely provable beyond the shadow of a doubt, not just reasonable doubt. And those were things that the defense said, yeah, guilty as charged. Why was he not charged with those crimes? Because if he was charged with those crimes, and that's what people were so upset about, obviously, when they saw that video of Cassie Ventura, Fine. Being physically assaulted under a surveillance video, when several people testified to personally witnessing egregious acts of assault and violence, why was he not charged for all of those numerous times that were well documented? If he was charged with that, he would have either pled guilty to those or he would have been convicted. And then wouldn't we all feel good as women and as women advocates that he was charged and convicted or at least paying his dues for those crimes?
- [04:22]
B
I agree. We just can't make sense of. We know and we have seen now what by all intents and purposes has been described as a monster. Some of the behavior. And I don't think any of us don't believe the stories that have about these women.
- [04:42]
A
Too many people saw too many things, okay?
- [04:43]
B
And you could talk about intentions, and if they were there because they wanted to and all, but what happened, happened. Awful, awful stuff. Nobody is saying Diddy is a good dude, but how are we now? And that's what we say. We are torn. How are we supposed to reconcile? I think Diddy should be in jail for the crimes I've heard described. But at the same time, I can be comfortable with the verdict that is going to keep him out of jail for a long, long time. That's the torn part of you want the guy to be in jail, but not for what you all charged him for. Because it doesn't make sense that a guy who was. Look, I know the shirts were cute and everything outside. What was it? A freako is not a rico. Some of the T shirts they were selling outside at the. At the jailhouse.
- [05:36]
A
But that's what that kind of sums it up in.
- [05:39]
B
Well, in one T shirt. Frico is not a rico.
- [05:44]
A
Wow. And honestly, it's catchy and it's true. And I think that's what's feeling off for so many folks. And we can all point fingers here, there and everywhere at who was the bad guy, who was wrong, who did this, and. And whether or not Cassie and Jane were actual. I mean, yes, they were victims of violence, they were victims of assault. But in terms of all of the things the prosecution was trying to prove and say about Diddy and his enterprise and his co conspirators and his racketeering and conspiracy charges, that all just felt like a false narrative that they were trying, they were overreaching, they were trying to put this guy away for life. Why not just charge him with what he actually did?
- [06:28]
B
And folks will argue that the victims didn't come forward, they didn't come forward in time and all of those things. But at the same time, the federal government isn't going to go after Sean Diddy Combs for domestic violence.
- [06:43]
A
Then why not the state of Florida? Then why not the state of New York? Then why not the state of California? Where is their responsibility?
- [06:50]
B
Again, a vic note. We covered this a whole bunch. Did we hear one report of one person calling the police on Sean Diddy Combs? I think the night of the Kid Cudi incident, who called? I think he called. It was a break in at my house. I think that was it. But nobody ever, in all the times of all the beatings and all the people witnessed, nobody ever called the police to say, hey, Sean Combs is over here beating the hell out of his girlfriend. So we talk about now an outrage and people upset and the system has failed. Those jurors failed these women. We started counting when this trial started how many people failed these women because so many people knew what was happening. From a security guard at a hotel, a security guard's wife even knew what was happening. There was a long list of Cassie.
- [07:45]
A
Ventura's own mother, her mom knew her stylist, her makeup artist.
- [07:49]
B
And we do, we want. It's this person's fault and this person did it wrong and they got it wrong and they shouldn't have charged this and that. But there is so much, and I hope we do keep talking about it. There's so much responsibility we all bear in all of this and how we talk about it and joking about baby oil all damn day on social media. It contributes to this atmosphere where we come almost desensitized to what this was. This was a case about monstrous violence against women that became something we couldn't understand. From a legal standpoint, and further complicating.
- [08:25]
A
This to your point, that no woman, and not even the victims themselves, but all of the people around them who knew, who claimed to be in fear of Diddy, and I'm not saying that wasn't true, but that was what they said. That was part of the reason why they didn't come forward. They were afraid of him. And there were people who just wanted to be around him and with him and liked the financial perks that they got from being with him, working for him, or at least being in his circle. So there were a lot of different motivations, but a lot of this is and was. And the only reason why we're talking about it is because of money. Money is the reason why Diddy ended up in court, because Cassie Ventura. Fine. Filed that lawsuit. And if he had just settled with her before that day went by, the lawsuit was filed. Federal officials got wind of it, saw what she alleged, and then pursued it with an investigation. But this was ultimately about money. This wasn't about justice. This wasn't about the greater good. This wasn't about making sure that Diddy could never or would never do this to another woman. This was about money. And so that also further complicates this conversation. I know, and I understand how difficult. Well, I don't understand. I can imagine how difficult it was for Cassie Ventura Fine. To get on that stand and to testify to these horrific things that happened to her and that she participated in. But she would never have been on that stand if she hadn't been seeking money in the first place. And a lot of folks, then that just draws into question the motivation and where her complicity lies. It just. It complicates this whole issue of the MeToo movement and why women do what they do and when and how and why they come forward. It. It just. It creates. I. I feel like, if anything, things got grayer, things got more confusing.
- [10:23]
B
Then take that on. If somebody would respond to you. Who gives a damn? She's a victim because she went through what she went through, even if she didn't come forward as a victim herself. It doesn't take away from. And it shouldn't change anything about the conversation.
- [10:39]
A
I agree that she is a victim. Regardless, without a doubt. What it does is it makes it much more difficult in a court to prove anything. And that is the problem. It's about being able to prove something. Unfortunately, it's. Yes, anything. Any sort of. Look, the assault was not a he said, she said, it was proven. But in terms of coercion in terms of whether or not she was able to say no, in terms of whether or not she was kidnapped or coerced or forced into doing acts she didn't want to commit. That's all very difficult to prove when it began with a civil lawsuit that involved tens of millions of dollars.
- [11:32]
B
Okay, this is, this is when I thought, man, we should just hit record and start talking because you pointed this out. And it is, for me, the point you were just making the biggest what if ever. What if when Cassie Ventura phi went to Diddy and said, I have this book. You can buy the rights to it for $20 million, sign an NDA, you will never hear from me again. If he would have just done that on the spot, she would have been obligated to not speak about it ever publicly. And would we have ever found out about any of this about Sean Diddy Combs?
- [12:19]
A
I don't believe right now. Absolutely not. Could he have continued in his monstrous ways and finally messed, with, lack of a better term, the wrong woman? Absolutely, that's possible. But he had spent decades grooming women, grooming women, picking women who perhaps he found of a certain temperament. I believe he spoke about Cassie. He got them young. He said, she's moldable. I got her exactly where I want her. So, so he was grooming women. He knew to find them, where to find them and at what age, perhaps even to find them. So he, he knew what he was doing. But I, I, I think it could possibly have happened years down the line that the wrong, you know, he picked the wrong woman who decided to speak up and speak out and wasn't going to take that. But short of that, no, I think he would have been able to keep doing what he was doing. So, yes, I understand. You can look at it and say, regardless of how it came to light, regardless if it was about money, initially, thank God it did come to light because this man needed to be behind bars. And I truly believe that. I believe Diddy belongs behind bars.
- [13:21]
B
But the person at the center of this, and again, this was the point I didn't just stop and think about until you hit me with it a few minutes ago, was Cassie Ventura. Fine. Did not want this to come out. She did not want the world to find out about Diddy initially, at least as long as she got paid, because.
- [13:41]
A
She didn't want the world to find out what she did and what she participated in. And I understand that. And so how much of it is regret? Yes, again, want to make it crystal clear. It's not okay, that she was abused and that she was assaulted, and that's all like, that's not even up for debate. But in terms of the freak offs, in terms of all of that, that's something that she did participate in sometimes, maybe not willingly, but other times, yes. And that is in and of itself embarrassing.
- [14:14]
B
So what has happened now, and I guess it's been the trial that we have now turned to examining the victim. Isn't this what we folks always complain about, that we examine the victim as if their complicated background makes the crimes against them any less egregious? That cannot be the case. And that maybe is a problem in this conversation because so much has been exposed, if you will, about what the girlfriends essentially were getting out of the relationship. Now, one argument could be made. They were held hostage, essentially they were under his power and they were coerced, as the word continues to be used. But, and just in just generally as a, just watching it, as a human being, you can't help but think that. And obviously it played a role in that jury, of course.
- [15:05]
A
And yes, because no matter what the law is, no matter what your jury instructions were from the judge, you're still a human being who's lived a certain amount of experience in life and you know, some of these basic truths that are just within us all. And so that had to have played a role in, in the jury's decision to not convict Diddy on these more serious charges.
- [15:27]
B
That's a reasonable doubt.
- [15:29]
A
It is, and I agree with it. And it's so interesting because having had now 24 hours to reflect on the verdicts, I'm actually, I'm actually very much like, they aren't the charges I would have wished he was facing. But I do think the amount of time he's going to be spending in prison, which will be at least another year beyond the nine months he's already served, I think it would be safe to say, and maybe even a little bit more, you know, say he gets another, even two years. There needed to be some sort of consequence and punishment for what he did. I don't know what his time would have been behind bars, to be honest. I don't know what state charges of assault and domestic violence, and I don't think it ever rose to the level of attempted murder. But certainly these were serious violent crimes. I don't know what kind of time he would have been looking at from that kind of a charge. But he, he, he needs to be behind bars. He is a dangerous, violent person who needs to pay for his crimes, without a doubt. I just don't love what he was charged with, and I don't love what he was convicted with, But I'm okay with the ultimate end of it, with the result of it, I guess, that he's behind bars for a couple years.
- [16:52]
B
And you just explained the whole, in one sentence there, what being torn in this thing means. To be happy he's going to jail, to be happy with the verdict, but be unhappy that he was charged with this in the first place, to be unhappy, unhappy that he's not going to jail for longer for doing what we all saw him do.
- [17:13]
A
It's so who's responsible? I mean, the prosecution has to bear a lot of that responsibility. And the question is, now that we've seen what happened in court, will prosecutors, will federal prosecutors, even state and local DAs, will they take notes from this case? Will they say, hey, let's actually just understand that jurors are smart, real people who get it, and they understand when we're trumping up charges or we're creating charges to try and get around something, to not actually charge people with what they. With the crimes they committed. That would just go a long way. I think people are afraid to do politicians, and obviously a lot of these folks are elected officials. But isn't that our biggest complaint? They aren't transparent. They don't say, I'm sorry, they don't say what actually is. They try to create the smoke and mirrors show. And it's kind of treats all of us like we're stupid. And I feel like that's kind of a little bit what happened here.
- [18:10]
B
And apparently 12 people said, hey, we can't be fooled by it. That's. I don't know. I just, I hate that the conversation is going towards this idea, which is a legitimate one, that this was a loss for women, that this is once again a man getting away with crimes he committed. On the other hand, there's an argument he wasn't charged for the actual trial.
- [18:35]
A
And that's where I land.
- [18:36]
B
We saw him commit. And somewhere in the middle, there is this racketeering and this sex trafficking that is just hard, certainly for 12 jurors to reconcile. When I see a domestic abuser, don't know how he translates to the CEO of a criminal enterprise, you just nailed it.
- [18:58]
A
And that's why we're torn. But at the end of the day, it does feel like some justice was served. And just curious. Hey, if you guys want to jump on Amy and TJ podcast, our Instagram page, we would love to hear where you all land on this and how you feel about the verdict and wondering if you're just as torn as we are. But we appreciate you listening as always. I'm Amy Robach. On behalf of my partner, TJ Holmes, we hope you have a wonderful day and a wonderful holiday on the 4th of July tomorrow. This is an I Heart podcast.