The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Branded, Breaking Free and Blowing the Whistle (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode: The NXIVM Sex Cult Scandal: Branded, Breaking Free, and Blowing the Whistle (With Survivor Sarah Edmondson)
Date: January 27, 2026
Host: Alisa Donovan
Guest: Sarah Edmondson (NXIVM survivor, activist, author, and host of "A Little Bit Culty")

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Overview

This episode is the second part of Alisa Donovan’s deep-dive interview with Sarah Edmondson, a prominent whistleblower and survivor of the NXIVM cult (often stylized as "Nexium"). Sarah recounts harrowing moments from her time in NXIVM, focusing on her indoctrination, branding, the psychological control wielded by leaders, and her hard-fought journey to freedom. The episode moves through the emotional, psychological, and logistical challenges of escaping NXIVM, touching on the fallout for fellow members, public figures like Allison Mack and Nancy Salzman, and offers advice for others who may unknowingly find themselves in cultic or controlling environments. Sarah also previews her new book "A Little Bit Culty" and shares ongoing efforts to support other survivors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motherhood and the Road to Leaving NXIVM

• Sarah credits the birth of her son as a grounding influence that catalyzed her gradual disengagement from NXIVM.
  • “Having him not only grounded me in reality and forced me to heal... He was almost three at the time. He was such a gift.” (03:23)
  • Prioritizing her family put cracks in the intense demands of the group.

2. Hierarchy, Manipulation & Rewards

• NXIVM’s ranking system (sashes, stripes) mimicked self-help or martial arts but was used as a manipulative tool to keep members engaged—Sarah was promoted at convenient times to retain her loyalty.
  • “They promoted me to green sash at a time when... I think they just were trying to give me the thing I was going for so I’d stay involved.” (04:21)
• The notorious “master-slave” structure was pitched as “metaphorical” yet operated with real psychological coercion.
  • “To anyone else listening, it would be like, that’s so fucked up.” (05:16)

3. The Branding Ritual

• The branding ceremony was presented as a meaningful initiation, not the brutal act it was.
  • “Up until the night of the branding, I didn’t know that humans could be branded. I thought that was something that just happened to cattle.” (07:30)
• Participants were made to be naked and were held down by other women. The process was filmed as “collateral” for blackmail.
  • “It was designed to trauma bond us... That was filmed. That was more collateral that was used against us.” (11:04)
• Sarah highlights the depth of psychological coercion, comparing the “collateral” to a “gun to my head.”
  • “In these situations with coercive control, the collateral is used as a gun to my head... if I didn’t follow my commitment.” (11:34)
• The actual branding was excruciating, requiring Sarah to dissociate to endure it.
  • “I disassociated so hard that I don’t know... There were times when I was like, floating above my body.” (13:52)

4. Discovery of Keith Raniere’s Involvement

• Sarah only discovered the brand was Keith Raniere's initials (KAR) two months later.
  • “Even if I said okay to all these things, I did not agree to having Keith’s initials on my body. That information was held for me.” (14:49)
• Realization of Raniere’s sexual exploitation and the full extent of DOS came through conversations with fellow whistleblower Mark Vicente.
  • “That was the end... We’re out. Holy shit. I’m in a blackmail pyramid scheme, right, involving sex slavery.” (19:41)

5. Reflections on Allison Mack & Nancy Salzman

• Allison Mack: Sarah expresses complicated feelings about Mack, noting her podcasts and public apologies lack true accountability.
  • “It’s just hard to know... I don’t know how much she fully understands the extent of [her harm].” (25:37)
  • Alisa criticizes Mack as potentially “priming herself to start her own freaking cult,” expressing discomfort with her public persona. (26:01)
  • “[She says] it was hard... My family had to hear that. I’m like, how about it was hard because you did it?” (27:24)
• Nancy Salzman: Sarah criticizes Salzman for refusing to take responsibility in her podcast appearances:
  • “There’s zero responsibility taken... [She says] ‘DOS was where the problems were. My company was perfect.’” (31:45)

6. Impact on Other Members and Remaining Guilt

• Sarah still grapples with guilt and sadness over those still loyal to NXIVM—some of whom were recruited through her network.
  • “The thing that takes up most of my space... is some of the people that remain loyal, even if I didn’t directly recruit them... in my pyramid.” (46:21)
• She mentions Nikki Clyne’s recent exit and reflects on the complex legacies for survivors.

7. Warning Signs & Advice for Identifying Cultic Control

• Cultic or high-control environments are diverse—from fitness groups to spiritual movements.
  • “Let’s not even use the word cult, people get all up in arms... Is this healthy for you?” (41:12)
• Red flags:
  • Increasing demands for time/money/commitment.
  • Punishing dissent, isolation, or shunning.
  • Love bombing, dependency, and slow erasure of outside relationships.
  • Secretiveness about leadership or purpose.
• Advice:
  • Don’t seek clarity from group leadership; seek out ex-members or independent resources.
  • “If you’re questioning if what you’re involved in is a cult, it probably is—or at least something you should check in with yourself about.” (45:00)

8. Life After NXIVM, Healing, and New Purpose

• Sarah discusses her own recovery, ongoing advocacy, and the importance of putting one’s pain into purpose.
• She previewed her new book, A Little Bit Culty: Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion, which distills learnings from her podcast and personal experience into a practical resource for survivors and their families.
  • “My knowledge base grew and I realized: if I had this information before, I wouldn’t have joined. If I had it during, I could have gotten out. And if I had it after, I would have had a playbook for leaving.” (50:16)
• The book addresses media navigation, whistleblowing, and practical guidance missing from most cult recovery memoirs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On motherhood as motivation:
  “Having him not only grounded me in reality and forced me to heal…he was such a gift.” (03:23, Sarah Edmondson)
• On manipulative promotions:
  “They just were trying to give me the thing I was going for so I’d stay involved.” (04:21, Sarah Edmondson)
• On the “master-slave” dynamic:
  “To anyone else listening, it would be like, that’s so fucked up.” (05:16, Sarah Edmondson)
• On the horror of the branding ritual:
  “Up until the night of the branding, I didn't know that humans could be branded. I thought that was something that just happened to cattle.” (07:30, Sarah Edmondson)
• On psychological coercion:
  “The collateral is used as a gun to my head…if I didn’t follow my commitment.” (11:34, Sarah Edmondson)
• On covering for abuse/lying in leadership:
  “Both Allison and Nancy would not have done any of that had it not been for Keith Raniere… but both of those people actively lied to people like me.” (32:58, Sarah Edmondson)
• On survivor’s guilt:
  “The thing that takes up most of my space in my head is… people that remain loyal, even if I didn’t directly recruit them… in my pyramid.” (46:21, Sarah Edmondson)
• On advice for those worried about control:
  “If you’re questioning if what you’re involved in is a cult, it probably is…or it’s just something you should check in with yourself about.” (45:00, Sarah Edmondson)
• On her purpose after leaving NXIVM:
  “If I could picture myself in the 90s knowing that, like, oh, in 20, 30 years, you’re going to be in a podcast with that cool chick from Clueless… [it’s] a weird way to get there, but I do hope our paths cross in person.” (53:33, Sarah Edmondson)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:10] Motherhood’s role in helping Sarah leave NXIVM
• [04:21] The manipulation of rank/promotions in NXIVM
• [05:28] The “master-slave” dynamic—‘it’s just a metaphor’
• [07:17] How branding was explained and misrepresented
• [10:28] Psychological trauma of the branding ceremony
• [14:49] Realizing the brand was Keith Raniere’s initials
• [16:42] Piecing together the truth—conversations with Mark Vicente
• [23:42] Discussion shifts to Allison Mack’s public statements
• [31:45] Critique of Nancy Salzman taking “zero responsibility”
• [40:10] Warning signs: How to tell if you’re in a cult or a high-control group
• [46:21] Sarah’s ongoing guilt and concern for those still loyal
• [49:07] New book announcement: "A Little Bit Culty"
• [53:33] Reflection on her journey, new sense of purpose, and hopes for the future

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Flow & Tone

The tone is deeply personal, candid, and often emotional, featuring moments of reflection and self-critique mixed with humor and resilience. Alisa offers both empathy and pointed critique of public figures, while Sarah’s honesty and self-awareness provide listeners with an authentic survivor narrative that is grounded and actionable.

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Closing

Sarah Edmondson’s harrowing story is a cautionary tale but also a hopeful one—showing that recovery, activism, and meaning are possible after the most coercive forms of abuse. The episode serves as a practical primer for identifying the red flags of unhealthy groups, understanding the lived impact of coercive control, and empowering listeners to seek information and support.

For support, resources, and news on Sarah’s new book and podcast, visit:

• A Little Bit Culty Podcast
• Sarah Edmondson’s website (resource list, book, and more)

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Transcript

[Sarah Edmondson]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

So here's the idea.

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

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[Bowen Yang]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

What do you have to lose?

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

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[Alisa Donovan]

Per month when network is busy See Terms what if mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Alisa Donovan]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Sarah Edmondson]

When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Alisa Donovan]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Can you get someone to jo NLP was used on me to access my subconscious mind games.

[Alisa Donovan]

A new podcast, exploring nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic Programming. Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

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[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

Amy Robach and T.J. holmes present killer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.

[Alisa Donovan]

Hey everybody, Elisa Donovan here, back with a new episode of Killer Thriller. This is our second part of my interview with Sarah Edmondson, where she talks about getting out of Nexium, the branding that they went through, and all of the work that she is doing today to help people escape cults, and ideally never get involved with one. How much do you think actually being a mom in the midst of this helped you get out of it? Because you must have thought, oh, my gosh, wait a second.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It definitely helped me having Troy. And I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit in the timeline.

[Alisa Donovan]

I know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sorry. No, I'll try to. My fault, my fault. Perimenopause. I'll come back to it.

[Alisa Donovan]

Me too.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yay. To talk about the supplements we're taking later, but. Right later. But having him not only grounded me in reality and forced me to heal. Like so many things, I. I tell Troy that all the time not to put too much pressure on him. He's 11 now, but he was. He was, you know, almost three at the time. And he was such a. Such a gift. But I do think that the last two years before I left, I had been ref. You know, focusing on him and my. And my marriage and, you know, we were traveling a lot, so we were also a bit stressed. But I think ultimately in the growth of the stripe path, which was the sort of backbone of an exam, I was not growing and Right. The. You know, and they used to give me things to kind of keep me hooked. Like, they promoted me to green sash at a time when I was like, I think I'd just given birth to Troy. And if anyone knows, for the Nexium nerds out there, I was an orange three stripe proctor. In other words, I had to get another stripe. And then I would get my green sash and I. That was taking so long. And then, oh, my gosh, they skipped me. They skipped a rank and promoted me to proctor or to senior proctor, which is green sash, which is like. Was great. And I was really happy, but I was like, did I earn this? Like, how did I like, I think they would. They just were trying to give me the thing that I was going for so I'd stay involved.

[Alisa Donovan]

So you'd stay. Right. And keep recruiting people and keep doing recruiting.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So that had happened a few years earlier, but I hadn't got my first stripe on my sash and I wasn't working through my issues and I was. I had stagnated. So when Lauren invited me, it was. The main selling point for me is that I'd get to spend time with Lauren and work with her and she. We get to check in daily and it's called a master slave relationship. But that's not, you know, it's not really a master slave. Like, that's how she. That's how she painted it. It was like, you know, we call it master slave. Like, you're gonna. You're gonna, you know, text me as master, and I'm in your slave. But, like, right. Which to anyone else listening would be like, that's so fucked up.

[Alisa Donovan]

Well, when you see the actual, you know, the. They share the text messages and the vows, you can see them. It's like, yes. From the outside, you say, this is ludicrous that these people would do this. But then you also think, oh, okay, you know, it could be sort of like a joke. And I think, you know, at one point, this is like a metaphor. This isn't a real master slave thing, but it really was because you. All right, let's talk about the branding that everyone. I. I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, please let me just finish. Just to say one more thing about master slave, because I think that one talking point that I've come to recently, when people tell me about, like, well, that's crazy how. But then they tell me how they did hazing in a sorority.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And.

[Alisa Donovan]

And they did stuff, and you're like, well, that's crazy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, that's crazy, too. And also, it's the same thing. Like, I lived in Vancouver. Lauren is in Albany. It's not like I'm in a cage and she's got me on a leash. Do you know what I mean? Or a dog collar. Like, we're in separate places. So it is a metaphor. It's a game. It's an exercise in, you know, putting someone else above you and. And honoring them and doing something for them. And then they were gonna have people doing that for me eventually, which, you know, as you. As, you know, because you followed, like, didn't really pan out, which is great. But that was. That was really, like, the main reason is being able to work with her. And the master slave stuff was, like, just weird. But the branding was something that was pitched as. As. As I understood it as like a mark on my body, like a tattoo. Now, in the trial, Lauren verified that everything I said was true. But she said that she did tell me I was going to get a brand, which she may have, but I.

[Alisa Donovan]

Think you would never think I'm going to be branded like cattle. I think I can imagine where, if you hear that word, it would sound like, oh, a brand of, like, a. Like a symbol, you know, something.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, that's. That's what I've come to realize because she may have used the word brand, but up until the night of the branding, I didn't know that humans could be branded. I thought that was something that just happened to cattle. She said, she said that. She told me branding. But what I remember is a. My body like a tattoo. And then I was like, I don't want to get a tattoo. I never don't have any tattoos. I don't. I had a whole thing about. That was my main sticking point. Master slave. Fine tattoo, but doesn't that.

[Alisa Donovan]

And forget you. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's also. As a Jewish. Of the Jewish faith. That's pretty. A lot of people have feelings about tattoos in general, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, there were times when I was a teenager that I'd considered it, but ultimately that's, that's one of the reasons. Yeah. So I was Jewish. I, I, I stalled for a while, committing to dos mostly because of that. And also I just felt really uncomfortable. And one of the things that kind of tipped me over the edge to help me say yes, and this is so dumb, but. Because Lauren was staying at my house and we were doing an intensive together that, that week, but I ran into another proctor who was like, lower rank than me and much less committed, and she, she like, kind of winced and like, tugged at. Because Lauren told me where the mark was going to be. Like, right here under my, under your bikini line. And then I, the next day, or maybe even that day, I saw this friend of mine kind of like. And I was like, are you okay? And she's like, oh, yeah, it's just like a little cut. And she was, like, all sketchy about it. And I was like, she's in this thing.

[Alisa Donovan]

Like, oh, wow. Right? So then you felt like, wait, I should be, I'm. Yes, I'm higher up. I should be doing this. Or how. If she can do it, certainly should.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Exactly.

[Alisa Donovan]

So twisted. So. So you fly to Albany then, and knowing that this is what you're going to do is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So, yeah. I got recruited in January, and in March, I flew to meet my sisters and have my initiation ceremony is what is what they called it. So that was the, that was the big plan.

[Alisa Donovan]

And this is for people who don't know. I, I can't express enough how disturbing this is. It is like a cauterizing iron, right. That is put on your body. And I mean, tell me about that. You all have to be naked. The subversive, the controlling aspects of this entire ceremony are so despicable to me. And they're so insidious and so twisted. Can you explain it with as much as that you're comfortable that you're being held down by other women who are. Then you're supposed to feel good about that somehow and then are branded with this thing that a woman is also a female doctor is doing with no anesthetic. I am like, I just. My heart breaks for everyone who went through that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you. I'd love. I'd love to just leave it at that because you summarized it so nicely. But it is. I have to tell you, sometimes I'm. I feel great. Not great, I feel fine in. In walking through it. Other times I just like, I don't have the capacity because it does, like, bring up stuff and it's sort of re. Traumatizing. So I'm going to kind of like, talk about it loosely.

[Alisa Donovan]

But I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

If I really. If I really think about it, I break down. So I have to just sort of like. It's almost like I have to dissociate a little bit to talk about it.

[Alisa Donovan]

I understand. 100. Yes. So only what you feel you would like to say?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I guess I feel like when I talk about it that way, it just comes across as kind of callous and like. Like I'm right flippant. You know what I mean? And I don't want, like, everything you just said is really true. It's, you know, it was designed to trauma bond us. It was designed to, you know, make this commitment that would not only bond us, but like, it was. We were naked. Like, that was filmed. That. That was more collateral that was used against us. And so people were. If they were ever. Like, once you're there, it's really hard to go back. And. Yeah, this isn't. This is actually how my book starts, is like, I'm on. I'm supposed to get on the table and. Or maybe I'm on the table. I don't remember. But like, I. I want. I don't want to be there. I'm trying to figure out how to leave. I'm, you know, gaslighting myself, going like, Sarah, you said. You said you were going to do this. You're gonna do it no matter what. And I'm also like, I don't. I don't want this. Like, I don't want it, but I have to do it. And I had the. What people don't understand is that in these situations with coercive control, the collateral is used as a gun to my head. Like, that was going to be released and if I didn't follow my commitment, which is to do whatever my master told me. Now, when I agreed to be her slave, I said to her very specifically, what kind of things are you going to ask me to do that I have to agree to, like, rob a bank? That was the. Specifically what I said. She says, no, these are all going to be things for your growth. I'm only going to ask you to do things and I'm only going to ask you to do things that I've done myself and that are good for you. And so the way that this was presented is I was going to do something difficult and painful and without anesthetic that if I got through, it would build my character and give me strength and experience the kind of pain that is the backbone of this loving master slave relationship. I know this towns, like sounds like total garbage, but, like, all of those words have years and years of indoctrination and, yes, belief behind them.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right? Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Trainings, like hours and hours and hours of trainings you can't even imagine. So for me, you know, the. I was there for hours. I was there. My particular branding, I think, was somewhere between 20 and 40 minutes. Some people took closer to an hour. It was a cauterizing pen that was dragged along your skin over the. Over a stencil. So there was a stencil of the symbol on my body. And then every line took like, you know, five to 10 seconds. And then they'd stop and there'd be some, you know, some mumbo jumbo about commitment and honor and guru. And I don't, you know, holy.

[Alisa Donovan]

So like in the middle of it, then it's like, this is why you're doing this. Like some spiritual readings or something. Like, what was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't even remember. I can't. Like, I'm so. I disassociated so hard that I don't know. Of course I. I know that, like, there were times when we were laughing. It was so uncomfortable. There were times when we were crying. There were times when I was like, floating above my body. I mean, it was, it was very, very, very painful. And.

[Alisa Donovan]

And who is leading the process? We.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So Lauren. Lauren was leading the process. And there was a woman who is the. Who is an osteopath who was doing the branding.

[Alisa Donovan]

She was also arrested. Right. The doctor not arrested. Certainly should have been.

[Sarah Edmondson]

If she wasn't. She. She. She lost her license.

[Alisa Donovan]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And I, at least I can't. Yeah, I can't speak too much about that because there is a civil case. But needless to say, she still believes that I am in the wrong.

[Alisa Donovan]

Well, I meant to differ with her.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. She says that I chose it and knew everything that was going to happen. And. And to which I say, even if I said, yeah, you know, master, would you brand me? It would be an honor, as instructed. And even if I said okay to all these things, I did not agree to having Keith's initials on my body. That information was held for me.

[Alisa Donovan]

When did you realize that is what, in fact the symbol was?

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was months. That was. I would say, I think it's like less than two months later. So between the time that the branding and that and that a whole bunch of other stuff went. Went on, like, dos, amped up. Lauren asked for the deed to my house. She said that there was going to be new collateral required every month.

[Alisa Donovan]

And did that tell you. Was that like, wait, that's when you started to say, I've got to get out of here? Yes. Like, what was the thing that made you. What was really the thing that. That. That put you over the edge? When is. I have to leave. This is bad.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There were so many things, and one of the. One of the things that we talk about with our. With our guests when they come on the podcast when they're leaving, it's never necessarily one thing. It's a whole bunch of little things, moments, interactions, thoughts that you put on a metaphorical shelf. And then often there is the. The last thing that causes the shelf to break. But it's not one thing. I mean, the. The moment when I was able to piece it all together and see the full picture was after a series of. Of those moments, a couple months of. And really 12 years of things that I couldn't reconcile. Like, why is Keith walking into this event with two women beside him? Oh, that must be his executive team. Oh, like, you know, like just all these. All of these things that were, like. That's weird. Why is everybody late coming back from lunch? They must be busy. Oh, never wouldn't think that they were all going to have threesomes while we were all doing training sessions, you know, like.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Found out later. Right. So all of these things came to a head when Mark Vicente and I. And keep in mind, Mark Vicente is the filmmaker who brought me in.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes. Who had done this film called what the Bleep Do We Know that is about quantum physics. And it was quite successful. It was huge in theaters. Huge documentary.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So he. In those two months where things were, like, falling apart, his wife had left. And this is in the vow. Not so much in my book, but in the vow.

[Alisa Donovan]

She'd left Bonnie, who was a well known actress at the time as well, who had been in Star wars and a couple of very big projects.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And sidebar, inside, my inside voice was like, yay, Bonnie, go back to la, pursue acting. That's what you should be doing. That's what was going on for me internally, externally. I had to be like, hey, Bonnie, can you like sign this NDA? Like, it's just there was so much going on, I didn't know if Mark was gonna leave. Mark was. We ran the Vancouver center together. Everything's falling apart. And he finally tells me why he's leaving, which is that he had heard and is aware of some secret thing going on in, in Albany with all the women. So he knows about that. I didn't know that he knew. He shares that. And this is where my book kind.

[Alisa Donovan]

Of turns into a bit of a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thriller because it's like it moves very fast at this point because he knows about that. And he tells me that he's heard that women have had been giving assignments, which I knew about because I'd had assignments, but he said some of the women had assignments to have sex with Keith. So that is when I put everything together. I was like, oh, that's what this is. And Lauren had told me, right? Lauren had told me this. Nothing to do with Keith. Keith, like he doesn't know about it. No men are involved. And now it's like, oh, Keith's pulling the strings. That's. That's what it is. Oh, and another moment that had been on my shelf that I forgot to say during the branding, Lauren asked me to film. We took turns filming.

[Alisa Donovan]

Filming the actual branding process.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, Every woman was filmed with Lauren's phone. Oh God. And I was holding her phone and a text came through from K A R that said, how are they all doing with each other? And I didn't know if that was K A R Keith Allen Ranieri or K A R Karen, who is a friend of. Was another high ranking person. So I thought, oh, does Keith know about this?

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh my God, this is in the middle when the branding is happening.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Or does Karen. Is Karen involved? I don't know. Put it on the show. You know, texts come through and they go, right. Like it was gone. And I'm not going to go like looking for. Yeah. So I was like, oh, okay, so Keith is now. Now I know. Okay, well, Keith has seen my naked body now I know that Keith, you know, Keith is fully aware of, like, oh. So anyway, Mark and I have this conversation, he tells me what he knows, I tell him what I know, and together we're like, that. That was the beginning of the end.

[Alisa Donovan]

I mean that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, that was the end that was. We're out. Holy shit. Where? I'm in a blackmail pyramid scheme, right, Involving sex slavery.

[Alisa Donovan]

Thank God you had one another though, right? It must have helped to have somebody that was like, I'm here too. We're gonna, we're gonna get out of here. Like, we're gonna somehow do this.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resources with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness. It's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions. It's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors, from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater, cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein dot com. Or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Mind Games Narrator]

What if mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Sarah Edmondson]

When you look at your you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you get someone to join your cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Nlp, AKA Neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's about engineering consciousness.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, nlp, might actually work.

[Bowen Yang]

This is wild.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart Apple and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

The Volkswagen Beetle started out as Hitler's dream car. It wound up as a beloved hippie icon and the best selling car of all time. How did that happen? I'm Jacob Goldstein. And I'm Robert Smith. On business history, we tell the surprising stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy. And the story of the Beetle is truly surprising. It has so much in it. It has Nazis, it has the German economic miracle. And it features one of the most famous ads of all time, an ad that really redefined what advertising was in the United States. The calculation was that there was some number of Americans who were ready for something different, who were ready for something that was counter to the culture, if you will. Perfect timing in this decade of the 1960s. Listen to Business History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and watch episodes on YouTube.

[Alisa Donovan]

It's very important that we get into what you're doing now and how you're helping people. But we need to talk about Allison Mack and her position in all of this. I don't know if you are allowed to talk about her or if you aren't allowed to talk about her. I have my own personal feelings. She has just started. She went to prison for several years. She was convicted of racketeering and some sex trafficking and some other things that you might know the specifics of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Can't remember them. I'm sorry, I'm so bad with that stuff.

[Alisa Donovan]

She was very much complicit in this, but also a victim, as everyone was. So that's a very complicated position to be in. Have. She spoke in on a podcast in the fall called Allison After Nexium. And then she just spoke with Michael Rosenbaum, one of her former castmates in Smallville 1. I want to know if you have listened to those two. I want to know how you. I've. I've got like seven addendum questions.

[Bowen Yang]

So.

[Alisa Donovan]

So first, have you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Alisa Donovan]

Listened to them?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. You have? Yes.

[Alisa Donovan]

Can you say how you feel about it? Your response?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I mean, I feel very comp. It's Very complicated. Like, it's. There's not like a. It's not a binary like yes or no or good or bad. It's like I have many feelings. Like, I'm, I'm thrilled for her that she's found love with somebody who has had a similar background. Like, what are the chances? I would love to say that I'm. It's a bit calm. It's. It is. I'm a bit. I'm a bit hog tied because of the civil case, so.

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But, but, but the, but the long and short of it is that it's just hard to. It's just, it's just hard to know how you know what goes on in people's heads. I, I wish her well. I hope that she can get her life back on track. I, I don't. I don't know how. How much she fully understands the extent of.

[Alisa Donovan]

That's how I feel in listening to it as an outsider. I'm like, this is not a healthy person. This is not a healthy person. And she doesn't know that she's not healthy. And it sounds very performative to me. It sounds like someone who is. Thinks they're far more educated and capable than they actually are. I do not think that she understands what went down here. She sounds like she's priming herself to start her own freaking cult. I don't, like, I don't know how to say this enough, but my. It was alarming listening to her. I feel like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why. Why are we allowing this to be. This person is not okay. And I, and I don't think that she is capable of truly understanding or being accountable. And I also get. It's complicated. It's like, damned if you do, damned if you. You don't. Like, it's a hard. I do appreciate that. And I clearly don't know what it's like to be in that position. I'm just saying instinctually, what I feel on my insides when I am hearing her speak, it is not healthy. And I don't think she should be speaking publicly. That's my feeling.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I'm with you. And I think that sort of the key moment that kind of exposed that for me is I don't remember when she was talking about how people read victim impact statements about everything that she did.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Natalie was like, how was that? And she's like, well, it was so hard. Like, my family had to hear that. I'm like, how about it was hard because you had to Write. Because you did it. Did it? Yeah. Yes. That was. That was a yes.

[Alisa Donovan]

Like, there's no culpability in that statement. There's. There's no accountability. And I. I think that she is smart enough to know how to. And the fact that she went back to college and expected to take psychology courses and gender studies and not have people be upset that she's in their class and she's going, hey, why don't you read this for your. Your paper? This might be helpful. Like, it is grandiose beyond description to me, and I. I hate. You know, I feel conflicted in speaking about another woman in that way, but I really feel like that's dangerous. Whereas. And again, I'm not trying. I know I'm interviewing you and not her, and. But I really. I meant everything I said in the beginning that you. There. There is an integrity and a groundedness and a humility about the way that you speak and the things that you say. That feels very authentic to me and feels like you are healing through this and understanding your position and the others and actually putting the pain into purpose in a real way and in not a performative way. Like, it just feels very different when I hear you and when I read the things that you write and the things that you say, it feels different to me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I appreciate that.

[Alisa Donovan]

I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's. It. I mean, I try to be myself. I. I feel like I'm myself. And I know that in Nexium, being performative and authentic was something that Allison was ironically, was working on and, you know, interesting. That's. So that when I see. When I see it, I'm like, that's like, she's still Alice. And still. And I also felt, truthfully, that kind of. Natalie got a bit caught up in that.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes, I did, too. I was like, wait a second, what's going on here?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was like, do you fell for the Allison show? Like, I don't know.

[Alisa Donovan]

This is exactly. This is how I felt in listening to it. And I was very confused by that. And then like, oh, you're not going to talk to anyone else. Oh, but I will. I'll talk to the. My. My castmate who is famous and on television. Oh, okay. I'll talk to him, too. I just like. Like, it gives me. It doesn't sit right with me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I did tell. I did tell Michael because I'd been on. On his podcast too, and so.

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh, you had been.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, like, a long. Like, when I first came out and I. I told him that I thought I did, like, for The. For his podcast, I think he did what he. Like, he's not a cult specialist. Like, he's right.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Like, that's. That was his. He was in his lane. And it was certainly. Yes, it was. It was. It was totally fine. Had I been there, I would have been. Like, when she. He says, like, what were some of the red flags? She missed an opportunity. Like, there were so many red flags that she experienced. You know, like, that would be something to share. I mean, I think the podcast has. Even though it was hard for me to listen and for you and many others to listen to, I had. I think it has value in showing kind of like, how these things happen and what her journey was and how she went from A to Z. But, yeah, in terms of, like, her culpability and her awareness level and all that stuff. Like, time shall tell.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right, Right. You know, sometimes we need to just listen a little bit.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I wish. I wish I could speak more freely. I know.

[Alisa Donovan]

I'm sure. And I'm the same page. Certainly not trying to, like, exploit you in any way. So we. We want weekend. I just had to. That's my own feeling.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Have you listened to Nancy Salzman on Kate Casey?

[Alisa Donovan]

No, but I did listen to her because again, I just watched the Vow again, and I was watching her episodes of, like. No, tell me about that one. What do I need to listen to?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wait, Casey does an episode with Nancy, and she's. I mean, that was very difficult to listen to because there's zero responsibility taken. And talks about how, you know. Yeah, my company had no problems in it. My company was helping people. DOS was where the problems were. My company was perfect. And I was like, are you kidding me?

[Alisa Donovan]

That's a whole other episode for. For you and I to talk about, because I just, like, from top to bottom there. Again, I also want to say, you know, we're all a product of our experiences, and it's what we choose to. To do with that. And I. I can appreciate that Nancy talks about her. Her growing up and the problems that she had as a child and with her mom. Like, I get that we all, you know, those things imprint us, and then we, you know, go through life. So. But we have to be accountable at a certain point. Like, we all have baggage. We all have things that we've been through, and then, you know, we can't. You have to say, she is 100 culpable. But, yes, she's also a victim of his, like, again, very complicated.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But, yeah, both Allison and Nancy would not have done any of that had it not been for Keith Ranieri. Right, so that's. That's clear. Right.

[Alisa Donovan]

And.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And yes, it's very interesting to look at all the things that shape you in your childhood and what, you know, makes you. Like, if you're an actress from age three and you, you know, your dad's an opera singing narcissist or whatever, whatever her thing is, like, yeah, that' to shape her in a certain direction. But both of those people actively lied to people like me.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And said that, like, Keith Renery was a celibate Renuncian. Like.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right. That's a flat out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

To my face.

[Alisa Donovan]

That is flat out a blatant lie.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Right. I made a lot of mistakes. I missed a lot of red flags. I got caught up in stuff I loved. There's so many things that were. I can own. I never lied to anybody. I never said, you know, yeah, Keith is so great. He's a celibate, but knew that he was king, everybody. Like, that's something I know, right? For certain. Anyway. I'd listen to it just for your own. If you just want to get riled up.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yeah, I definitely will. All right. Before we close and talk about the. Your new book that you have coming out and all the great work that you are doing, we should say that Keith is in prison, in jail for like a bazillion years. It's 120 years plus life or something like that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like.

[Alisa Donovan]

Or it's. He's not getting out, which is great. And another quote, like these walks that he would go on with people again, like the disrupting people's sleep and making them get up in the middle of the night and go on these walks with him and. But in particular, he's talking to Bonnie and says something that she's left the cult. Right. Or she's trying to leave. And he's like, you know, you'll. He says something to the effect of you'll pass out. But when you're serving humanity and your inner self, you know, you're blowing it. From a spiritual perspective, feeling enslaved is a good. You know, it's a good first step.

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

What.

[Alisa Donovan]

It's just like. And thankfully she was like, I think I'm still gonna go. I think I'm still gonna exit it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank goodness.

[Alisa Donovan]

So I. Do you. Do you ever think about Keith? And if you do, what. Actually more than that, do you think there was a. A moment. Did you have a moment when you were like, oh, he's left my psyche. Like, he's left my brain or do you think about him at all still?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't really think about him, to be honest. Every now and then, either Nippy or I will be like, what do you think Keith's doing right now? And I'll be like, he'll be sitting. He's sitting in his dorm and he's looking up at his mattress and he's looking at the, like, the metal underneath the mattress and he's counting it and looking for patterns and figuring out how to get out of jail. That's what he's doing. Or apparently he's been, like, running a little group. Like, he's been, you know, he's. He's always up to shenanigans. He's always getting in trouble. So I don't really think about him that much. I actually have this kind of sick fantasy of going to visit him in prison and just looking at him because I never got to go to court and see him because I was. Yeah.

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh, I get that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I get that in a movie way. Like if. As if my life is a movie, I should do that. But I probably never will. But, yeah, he doesn't take up much space in my head. I'm done with him.

[Alisa Donovan]

Mm, good.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness. It's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions. It's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors, from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater, cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein dot com. Or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers.

[Mind Games Narrator]

What if mind control is real?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Bowen Yang]

When you look at your car, you're.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Can you get someone to join your co cult?

[Sarah Edmondson]

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Nlp, AKA Neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's about engineering consciousness.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Mind games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This is wild.

[Mind Games Narrator]

Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

If you're seeking to try to understand the forensic science behind these cases that we hear about in the news, body bags is where you need to turn. There's no fluff. We do a deep dive into the forensics. Listen to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan and start listening.

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

The Volkswagen Beetle started out as Hitler's dream car. It wound up as a beloved hippie icon and the best selling car of all time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

How did that happen?

[Podcast Host (e.g., Jacob Goldstein or Robert Smith)]

I'm Jacob Goldstein. And I'm Robert Smith. On business history, we tell the surprising stories behind the inventions and entrepreneurs that shaped our economy. And the story of the Beatle is truly surprising. It has so much in it. It has Nazis, it has the German economic miracle. And it features one of the most famous ads of all time, an ad that really redefined what advertising was in the United States. The calculation was that there was some number of Americans who were ready for something different, who were ready for something that was counter to the culture, if you will. Perfect timing in the decade of the 1960s. Listen to Business History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and watch episodes on YouTube.

[Alisa Donovan]

Let's talk about. You said there's no playbook for leaving a cult. Can you talk about some of the warning signs that people should look out for and what advice you would give to people listening who could be in one right now?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I mean, ultimately what I've learned since leaving is that so many people are either in a cult or something culty. That something's not necessarily a full blown cult in the traditional sense, but it's just toxic, you know, or problematic. And it could be something as benign as Orange Theory or something where like. Or CrossFit, where it's like Obviously that's not a, a cult, but it's called Tea and I've now since like eight years out. Like, let's not even use the word cult because people get all up in arms or it's overused or, you know, people don't understand or they're like, well, my group doesn't have a charismatic leader, therefore it's not a cult. I'm like that. It doesn't have to have all the things. It has to have some of the things. And again, let's just forget the word cult. Is this healthy for you? So like with just Back to the CrossFit example, you know, it's all or nothing. Like you, if you don't go, you get shamed. Like people change their name names to have special CrossFit names. Like all of those things are red flags of like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want to, I don't, I don't want to push myself to injury. And if I don't, then like I'm a. Like that.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like that's, that's what, that's what not all of them. I've heard that some people do that. Like that forget cult. Like that's just not something that how I want to live. That's how you want to live. You know, all the power to you. But a lot of groups know that they're not going to. Like you said, you don't join a college on purpose. They have to provide value. People join good things. Right. They join something and it feels great at first. Personal development, a church, a wine club, a yoga studio. All of these things are, have value and are, are great. So like, what are the red flags? Well, starts. Starts benign. Like, you know, more intense commitment or more money or asking for to like to make the thing become more your life, to be more of a commitment towards a particular thing. Other red flags are like, you know, let's say you get involved and then like you feel like you can't question or if you're ashamed, if you're questioned or if people leave and everyone talks about them or you can't talk to them because people love, like shunning is involved. I mean there's, there's, there's so many things that I feel like you can isolate them. And even with Nexium, like people would say when I was in it, like, yeah, I think that might be a cult. I never had. No one ever did a proper intervention with me, but they said that I was in a cult. It's like, yeah, it's a cult. It's a group of people. And we're a group of, like, highly successful, happy people. I don't care if you think I'm in a cult because I love my culture. And that's what a lot of. A lot of people are trained to say. They don't see what's bad about it. So the bad thing is always some kind of bait and switch. You think you're doing personal development, which is what I was doing for a long time. But then when you're fully committed, you'll become a spiritual wife for the leader. And in Albany, like, that's really.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right. That's actually the end game.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right, the end game. But for a lot of people, that wasn't the end game. They were just taking trainings all around North America. And for them, they weren't in a sex cult. Right. They were in a personal development program. To this day, they're like, oh, like, I don't want to be associated with that thing because they just took trainings and we're fine. So for, for many people, the end game is just to have recruits that are bringing in money. So a lot of people are involved in things on the periphery and they think it's fine. And I'm going to say something controversial because I know a lot of people in LA do transcendental meditation, for example, and they have a mantra and. Or like you said, they do the forum and they take trainings. You're probably fine. But in the inner circle of these organizations, those are legit cults, in my opinion.

[Alisa Donovan]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So.

[Alisa Donovan]

Well, because there's a certain thing you have to do, right? Like, you have to give a certain amount of money and you have to do it X amount of time a day for tm, for example. But right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

If you're gonna, if you're gonna meditate and have a mantra, there's nothing. There's. That's not a problem. It's when you, like, go to the training session center and you become a teacher and you start dedicating your time and volunteering because you're doing something for service. And next thing you know, like, you're cutting off your family because they don't really get it. And then you're asked to, like, you know, move and be more like. So cults work in very specific ways.

[Alisa Donovan]

They.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They draw you in with something good. They have to dangle a hook, something of value. Then they isolate you from the rest of the world, and then they create a dependency. I mean, it's not Even like, linear. These are all sort of happening at the same time. Like the love bombing is happening while you're getting isolated and more dependent in creating a system that you have to commit to and everything else slowly gets cut off. And the more that people do that, the harder is to, to go like, oh, I made a mistake. I better. Right, like, reach out for help. Because also we tend to burn bridges for people who don't support us and get it. And I mean, my thought right now to anybody is like, if you're questioning if what you're involved in is a cult, it probably, it probably is. Or it's just something that like, check in with yourself. What is it about it that I don't like? And if you're not sure, don't go to the leadership. Don't talk to people who are still really dedicated because they'll bring you back in. Find people who've left. Go on Reddit, see if there's a documentary made about it. Google is so and so is. Is the forum. A cult is transcendental meditation. A cult is next to him, occult. Like, there's going to be a lot of information and it's that I wish I'd researched before, you know, before I did my five day.

[Alisa Donovan]

What's the hardest thing for you personally to sit with now? Just knowing the, the, the, the people that you brought in, do you still feel like or just with the entire thing? Like, what's the hardest thing for you to sit with or isn't there. Is there nothing?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think the hardest thing is for the people that remain. The thing that takes up most of my space in my head is like, some of the people that remain loyal even if I didn't like, directly recruit them are there because of people that I recruited. So like, in my tree, in my. They called it the organization, my pyramid. You know, I recruited people who recruited people who are still loyal and are still dedicating their life force.

[Alisa Donovan]

There are still people dedicated to him and to this. Are people still outside? There's. I know there's a point when, like, women were dancing outside. It's like very Charles Manson also. I know, and the Family, for the record. But is that still happening? Are people, like, dancing outside of the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They're not dancing. They have a, A group that gets together and they zoom and they, and they, sometimes they post stuff. They haven't been very active since Nikki Klein left. And Nikki was the main person that I was thinking about and praying. I don't, I'm not even really just like, just and having reoccurring dreams. She is out. She, she's woken up, but she's not. We can't talk yet because of the civil case. Okay. But there were she. And she was part of that dancing group.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yes. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So there, there are women there who are still in, and I just like, I, I, I, I would love for them to wake up and get on with their lives and, and there's also a lot of people who I know left who were like, at my wedding and I was at their wedding, and we have not spoken and I don't even know how to reach them. Like, people that kind of disappeared. I'd love to have closure, you know, I'd, I'd love to. Yeah. You know, even. I don't need like a, I don't need like a gratitude call. Like, hey, thanks for freeing me from the, you know, from this, from slavery or whatever. Like, thank you card.

[Alisa Donovan]

Here's a, here's a Starbucks gift card. Thanks for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I will take that. But no, I just, I just would like some closure with a lot of people. People. That eats me up. I feel like I've made amends as far as I know with anyone that, like, I brought in in terms of helping them get on their feet or get legal support or therapy. If I miss somebody and they're listening to this, please reach out. Like, I don't know what I don't know, but I feel like I've cleaned up my side of the street in that way.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But I mean, it eats me up. Also, separate from Nexium, that there's just so many things out there and people don't know. And it's so easy to get hooked.

[Alisa Donovan]

To get wrapped up.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So easy.

[Alisa Donovan]

So this is, brings us to our book. You have a new book coming out very soon. Yes. It's called A Little Bit Culty. Also the name of your podcast, which is a phenomenal name altogether, let's just say. So the book is called A Little Bit Culty, Navigating Cults, Control and Coercion. So tell us a little bit about that and when it will be out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'm so, so you're like the first interview I kind of air striked like, I'm kind of like drop little hints about it. Yeah, it's going to be available actually on Amazon very shortly and we don't have a. It depends on, on a couple of things because I'm self publishing. This one. I, I traditionally publish Scarred, but I'm, I'm doing this myself, which means I don't have to wait six months for it to be out. Like, it'll be available on Amazon, but probably by mid February. And then Nippy and I will be like, all the pre orders are going to get an autographed. An autographed signature from us and some ALBC merch. But we're just like, we're just so excited because we've inadvertently like, our podcast came out of COVID and the Vow and it was not something we planned as like our career move, but it just sort of. It grew and it was organic and it was beautiful and we, you know, talk to all these people who had endured similar things to us and it was cathartic and we, we learned and then all of a sudden we, we had all this information and people were coming to us like, oh, oh, I have a friend and what do I do? And I was sending people resources. I have a resource list also on my website.

[Alisa Donovan]

Amazing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

By which is. Yeah. Been great to be able to send to people. Be like, okay, there's this website for therapy and there's this website for legal and there's this. But so that's there. But my, my knowledge base grew and I realized if I had this information before, I wouldn't have joined. If I had it during, I could have gotten out. And if I had it after, I would have had a playbook for leaving. I would have had that. And so that's what we tried to do is put it all.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yeah. Because I think some people don't understand how hard it is to like the, the, the repercussions of getting out. Even the financial ones getting sued. Like NXIVM is huge on suing people, which takes a ton of resources to combat when you have Claire Bronfin, her bank account financing the entire organization. It's just endless funds. And very few people have that, if any, that are in, in involved. So there were just. So aside from even the emotional difficulty and that sort of separation, and it's actually financial and quite physical and literal often.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And nobody lays. There's. There's. There are books on cults, obviously. There's tons. There's tons of memoirs and there are some books on recovery and healing, but there's no book on how to navigate the media. You know, how to be a whistleblower, how to know the difference between a podcast versus Dr. Oz versus, you know, right. Being in doing Fox News. Like, there's just. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a show. I had to learn fast. I had. I Had a great team. Like, I. I want to put out information so I can give it to people. And. And that. That chapter might not be relevant to you. Right, right. But. But the chapters may be on, like, what to say to a friend who's involved in something a little bit culty or, you know, just out of curiosity, all the different red flags and all the different tactics, and we. We drop every tactic. Every chapter draws from our guest experience. So it's. It's very. It's very personal, and it's very, very real. It's very. It's us. It's. It's funny. I'm very proud of it. It was a real labor of love. Nippy and I tested our relationship to a new level writing a book together.

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I bet.

[Alisa Donovan]

I mean, you guys have sort of weathered quite a few storms, so.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Alisa Donovan]

That is also very admirable and impressive.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I feel like if we got out of a cult together, can do a cult podcast together and write a book about a cult, then we'll probably last a few years.

[Alisa Donovan]

Yeah, you'll probably stay together.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I hope so.

[Alisa Donovan]

I can't believe that we have to end. I just have such an incredible amount of admiration and respect for you, and I am so thrilled that you took the time to talk with me, and you just have a great spirit, and I hope everyone buys your book and reads it. And again, the podcast is a little bit culty. Best name ever. And I hope we get a chance to talk again, and maybe our kids will play basketball against each other at some point.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I would love that. Are you in San Francisco? San Francisco? Yeah. Okay, well, we'll have to make it happen. My life is cults and sports. And like you said at the beginning, you know, it's. Maybe this is my purpose, but it's what one of the crazy silver linings. Like, I. If I could picture myself in the 90s knowing that, like, oh, in 20, 30 years, you're going to be in a podcast with that cool chick from Clueless talking like, you know, like, the full circle. Like, what are the. I never. I would never have this. Like, that's so, so cool. It's so. I mean, it's a weird way to get there, but I do hope our paths cross in person. And it's always. It's always nice to talk to people who have good questions and aren't judgy and want to get into the nitty gritty. So I really appreciate the time and the. And the thoughtfulness you put into this.

[Alisa Donovan]

Oh, thank you. I'm glad. This really has been a pleasure. Thank you so much, Sarah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you, Lisa. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.