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Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
The Terrill Swift & Dave Thompson Interview: False Confessions
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- [00:00]
Emily Simpson
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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- [00:57]
Terrell Swift
12 months.
- [00:57]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [01:00]
Terrell Swift
Liberty. Liberty.
- [01:01]
Emily Simpson
Liberty.
- [01:02]
Terrell Swift
Liberty.
- [01:03]
Podcast Promoter
Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guests, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter.
- [01:22]
Dave Thompson
Where does your group do some retirement homes?
- [01:25]
Podcast Promoter
Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:34]
Emily Simpson
Wanna be a star? No problem. Anyone can shine on TikTok. Post your first video today. Real life, real story, real you. Download TikTok and get started. Hi guys. Welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane. Normally we get very excited about doing episodes on true crime and legal things and breaking it all down for all of you guys. But today this is a very, very special episode. Very near and dear to my heart. We have two special guests today and we're actually recording from the I Heart Studio here in la. So we have Terrell Swift. I don't know if you guys out there that are listening are big Housewife fans, but Terrell has been on an episode of Housewives with me. It was a few years ago, but we actually had to sit down and we had a great conversation, just talking how Terrell was wrongfully accused, spent time in prison. 10 years, right?
- [02:32]
Terrell Swift
Terrell 15.
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Emily Simpson
15. 15 years. And then kind of where he's at now just for Our listeners that don't know a lot about your background. Terell, I'm just going to read a little bit and then, you know, you add whatever you would like to. So Terrell Swift was arrested in 1995 at just 17 years old in connection to the 1994 rape and murder of Nina Glover in Chicago. His arrest came after another teenager gave a statement to police and named several individuals, including Terrell, despite no physical evidence linking any of them to the crime and even early DNA testing excluding them. All of the boys, including Terrell, ended up signing confessions after police interrogations. Those confessions became the central evidence used to convict them. Years later, more advanced DNA testing identified a different perpetrator, leading to Terrell's conviction being vacated in 2011 after he had spent 15 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Before we get into that, let me just introduce. Dave Thomas is here with us as well. I met Dave not too long ago. It was at the Hulu event right where Amanda Knox was there and I was interviewing her and I met Dave and Dave has an interesting bio. I'm just going to read a little bit and then you add whatever you would like. So, Dave Thompson, cfi. Do you want to tell me what that is?
- [03:53]
Dave Thompson
Yeah, it's a certified forensic interviewer.
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Emily Simpson
Okay. Certified Forensic interviewer is a nationally recognized expert in investigative interviewing, police interrogations, and the complex issue of false confessions. Dave has trained thousands of investigators, law enforcement professionals, attorneys and corporate leaders, and ethical science based methods of truth seeking grounded in research and practice. Dave frequently serves as an expert witness in cases involving police interrogation practices and disputed confessions, offering insight into interviewing methods, psychological coercion, statement reliability, and the science of influence and decision making under pressure. So I think it's really exciting that we have you here today, Dave, along with Terrell, because we've done several episodes in the past, I just to name a few. I mean, Amanda Knox was one of them. She. She made a false confession. And then also I just comes to my mind, we did, I don't know, do you remember the yogurt shop murders? You remember that case? And the young men that ended up giving false confessions. And I tell you, most of the feedback I get when we do episodes like that, people will say to me, that makes no sense. Why would someone ever say they did something they didn't do? And it's very black and white to people. So I think it's so exciting for you both to be here because let's not. Let's get rid of the black and white and really dive into why that happens, right?
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Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
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Dave Thompson
I think it's when you try to explain to people like why would somebody confess to a crime? Or people say, I would never confess falsely. That's the wrong question.
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Emily Simpson
Right.
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Dave Thompson
It's instead, like, let's understand what's the human decision making process that these psychological tactics have. And you know, when, when you hear stories like Terrell's and he shares his experience and Amanda's and all these other cases, you see so many commonalities that it is pretty obvious we know some of these contributors that result in false confession.
- [05:40]
Emily Simpson
And Terrell, take me back to when you were 17 and you end up in a police station and you're being interrogated for something that you didn't do. What, where, where's your head at? Why do you end up saying did something that you didn't do? How does that happen?
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Co-host/Interviewer
And how long were you there as well?
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Terrell Swift
How long was I in the police station? Yeah, I think maybe or three days, I think. Not sure. I can't remember how long I was in the station. But to answer your question, you know, people always say I get that a lot. You know, how could you sign a confession to something, to a crime that you didn't commit? And it's a, it's a very hard question to ask. It's like you would have to be there. And I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Right. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. To be in a position to where you're literally, you're threatened with your life to save your life. You know what I mean? So it's like you, you. It is a very, very, very heavy, very heavy, heavy load on the set. I was 17, haven't experienced anything in life at all, pretty much. And you're telling me that I'm going to die in jail for something I know nothing about? And what gets people to. I guess the false confess is you get a officer that says, hey, I believe you. And that's all you're trying to do is get someone to hear you, right? Hear me out, I didn't do this. I need some help. And that little bit, right, causes someone to sign a confession to a crime that they didn't commit under the pretense that this officer is saying that we're gonna get you home because at the end of the day you just want to go home because you had nothing to do with the crime that you're accused of.
- [07:27]
Emily Simpson
And I would assume because you had nothing to do with it, you're thinking, okay, I'll sign it in this moment and I'll get home and I'll talk to my parents, and then it'll all work out. I assume that's psychologically what's going on too, because you know, you didn't do it. So you're thinking in the end it's all gonna work itself out anyway. And then it doesn't. So, Dave, how do you become involved and end up training police officers to not do the wrong thing?
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Dave Thompson
That's a great question. And what you just said, too, what's kind of ironic to think about is somebody's innocence almost works against them.
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Emily Simpson
Right?
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Dave Thompson
Because. And Terrell can obviously speak to this better than I, but what we've seen is people who are innocent believe in the justice system. So they believe that investigators are going to pursue the investigation, they're going to collect evidence, they're going to realize what I said isn't true. But Terrell's point, if somebody can just cooperate or be compliant, and that means they can then leave the room, they'll let, the attorneys will figure it out afterwards, people will see through this, and then it just doesn't happen. And so I think that's just a phenomenon we've seen is innocence actually works against innocent. Yeah. My personal experience was the first exposure I had to kind of wrongful convictions and false confessions was thanks to media and platforms like yours, learned about Brendan Dassey's case from making a murderer. And I watched it and thought, I mean, this, I was kind of sickened by the interrogation and got a youthful person with some vulnerabilities. And when I saw the interview and the interrogation, I thought, as somebody who represents a leading training firm, we have to stand up and say something. Because if we don't, we're basically just kind of condoning and endorsing that. And so from there, I started to learn more about what is the social science behind this. Why every time we look at a false confession case, does it contain the same elements each time? We should learn from that. And so since then and over the last decade plus, we done a great job working with groups like the Innocence center and our training organization to make sure that we're educating investigators because they do want to do it the right way.
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Co-host/Interviewer
What are some of those elements, those common elements?
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Dave Thompson
I think one of. Well, we know one of the most common contributors to a false confession is the use of what's called the false evidence ploy. Or when an investigator lies about evidence or maybe even lies about potential consequences and been a great movement. Terrell and I actually our first connection was working on legislation like this because in the United States, police are legally allowed to lie about evidence. Yeah. Supreme Court allows it since 1969, Frazier vs. Cup. Supreme Court ruling since then in the last few years. And I first connected working on a bill in Illinois and Oregon, I think it was 2021. 2021, first passed some legislation specifically to protect youthful people and to eliminate this ability where police are lying about evidence. And just one. I mean, there's a lot we can talk about about that. First of all, if you're lying about evidence, that means you must not have the evidence in the first place. Which we have a gap. We have a gap here. You lie about evidence, it's going to cause some more police community distrust, which we already have across this country. And if you lie about evidence, it causes somebody to start to have memory distrust, start to think, well, maybe I was there. If the evidence says that maybe. Maybe that's what.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Or I have to have an explanation for why this. My right. The blood was there at the scene of the crime. My blood or something or fingerprints.
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Emily Simpson
You mean whatever they're telling. Whatever.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Right, whatever. Whatever the lie is, they feel they have to have an explanation for it because they said it was there, so it must have a reason for it. And so they start talking about it,
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Dave Thompson
probably, and then the explanation is going to contradict reality, which now somebody looks like a liar.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Liar, right.
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Dave Thompson
Yeah. And it goes back, I think, to what you're saying before is if. If an investigator tells you that we've got an eyewitness, we've got fingerprints and we've got video surveillance. And so now you know, okay, I didn't do it. So if I confess just to get out of the room, at least the eyewitness, the fingerprints and the video surveillance will exonerate me. That evidence never existed. Now all you have is confession.
- [11:16]
Emily Simpson
Right. And then I assume, because we talked about this before, that false confession you signed followed you just. It would never go away, no matter what happened. It was just. Every time you were before a judge or you were presented with any way was just the false confession just followed you throughout this 15 years that you were in prison.
- [11:34]
Terrell Swift
Yes, that was the biggest obstacle. The. The false.
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Emily Simpson
Because there was no DNA, there's no forensics. There's. There's. I guess there was an eyewitness, but I don't even. They just named some four people.
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Terrell Swift
And yeah, it was one of one of the young men that was falsely arrested, you know, with us.
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Emily Simpson
He was.
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Terrell Swift
He supposedly had gave my name. Right. But none of us had anything to do with the crime. Right. None of us. But that was the only thing that ultimately convicted us, right. Was the false confession. Nothing else to support anything that we said in our false statements because it wasn't true. You know, these were things that was fed to us by law enforcement at the time. But the false confession was the ultimate nail in the coffin for us being convicted.
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Emily Simpson
It's not mandated that police departments learn better tactics. Correct. So how do you convince them? Or how do you get in there and say, okay, you guys need this training because it. What you're doing is an ethical. Or how do you convince them that they need to do that first?
- [12:47]
Dave Thompson
I would say police want training. Right? They want to do it the right way. An investigator is in this position to help protect the community and public safety. And so a lot of these tactics we're talking about, like false evidence ploy and some others we can get into are what they've been trained to do historically. And whether it's law enforcement, military, everybody's very scripted. What's the manual say? Like, what's step one, two and three? And so thankfully, we've got science the last two decades that have allowed us to now re educate investigators. And so when we're out there training police, they're embracing that. They're asking more questions. It's not. It doesn't feel comfortable to lie to somebody or convince somebody that they're not being cooperative. Police want to get the truth. And so a lot of our training is just to try to give them these aha. Moments of a confession might seem really reliable and truthful on its surface, but when you dig into how did we get there, maybe you should investigate a little bit, a little bit further. So one of the favorite slides that we have in our presentation is if it. If it ain't broke, break it. And part of that is trying to educate like this. You may not think there's a problem because it's been successful for you for 20 years, but let's look at experiences like Terrell's and learn how we can do it better.
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Emily Simpson
Can I just get back to the legislation that you guys worked on together? Because I have that in my notes because I think that's so interesting. I know you started in Illinois working together on that, and now it's. It's the same. I don't remember what it's called. What is it? Bill 2644. That's the one that's in California now. Is it mimic the One in, in Illinois, I think it's basically the same. It's just now California has adopted it as well.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Why was Illinois the first state? Was it an easier one to get your kind of your foot in the door and in passing that or I'm probably gonna.
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Dave Thompson
Between Illinois and Oregon, they fought to make sure who was gonna be the first governor to sign the bill.
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Emily Simpson
Oh, really? Oh, so it was like a race.
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Dave Thompson
Yeah, but it was good. We just had really good support in both. In both states and some really good leadership in both. And bipartisan support, which was neat. We had law enforcement representatives and, you know, I was excited to be a part of that voice of saying we need more training. We wanna make sure we're doing it the right way. And so those two states initiated that bill. And every bill, I think we're 10 or 11 states now, have something similar. Some have some kind of different language in there on what's allowed or not allowed or if a confession's presumed inadmissible or not. But it's rolling across the country. And I think even if there's not legislation yet, departments are adopting new training and policy to reflect what the legislation
- [15:09]
Emily Simpson
looks like, you know, for our listeners. Just so we break it down into simple terms. What are some of the big basics like that we can take away from the legislation? What were the. The meat of it that is really effective.
- [15:22]
Dave Thompson
I think this an easy way to explain it. When the, when this legislation in Illinois first got passed was really to remove the ability or even if investigators lie about evidence. So if they're sitting with somebody of a youthful age and they say we have fingerprints on the weapon, and if that's false, if that's not true, if that results in an admission or a confession, in some states, that confession is now presumed inadmissible, cannot be used, which. So now if you're cutting it off at the court level, that's going to reeducate investigators, that I'm not going to use this technique anymore. As it's been growing, there's other tactics, things like when investigators threaten severe consequences if you don't cooperate, you know, you're going to get the death penalty, or if you don't cooperate, you're going to spend life in prison or the opposite. And I'm curious if Terrell experienced this. But minimizing consequences like, hey, if you just tell me what happened, it's probably not that big of a deal. We can figure this out between us. And so three of the main categories I've seen is deception, which we Just talked about. And then maximization and minimization and trying to remove those, those tactics and this.
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Emily Simpson
And it applies to, it's 18 and younger, but then also 18 to 25. Is that correct? That's the way I kind of interpreted it because I read that even up to 25, your brain's still molding or forming. And so that's why it's applicable to 18 and younger minors, but also then 18 to 25, is that correct?
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Dave Thompson
Youth, yeah, every state's a little different. That's why I've used the term youthful. I've been conditioned that way because.
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Emily Simpson
Right, because then it's, then it just applies.
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Dave Thompson
Well, we all, like you think when we all turn from 7 or 17 to 18, there's not like a switch that goes off that all of a sudden we know what the hell we're
- [16:53]
Emily Simpson
talking about, especially men now I can sign a contract.
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Dave Thompson
And so yeah, the social science, like our developmental maturity is more around 25. That we're, we're kind of overcoming these things. But a lot of the laws are right around usually 18. But at the end of the day, the same thing should apply to everybody. I don't care who we're interviewing. We should be using evidence based tactics to get reliable information.
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Emily Simpson
Do they have to have an attorney or a parent present? Does there have to be some kind of adult as well or.
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Dave Thompson
No, I'll let Trill speak to his specific experience because I know it's inconsistent across the US right now.
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Terrell Swift
I mean there should be. Right. A parent there because in other countries, you know, some law enforcement, they don't even speak to children without a parent being there.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, that's how it should be.
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Terrell Swift
Yeah. But here we tend to do it and we see the repercussion behind it. You have people like myself, young, going in, being interrogated and being tricked and losing half your life. And a lot of us don't come out and not able to do a podcast with you. Right, right. Because it's too damaging, it's too stressful, it's. The trauma is too unbearable to even proceed with life. So you know, we should, we definitely should take a look at it to make sure that they, that there is someone there, which it should be at all times. Right. But sometimes it doesn't happen. And that's the unfortunate.
- [18:14]
Dave Thompson
When that legislation in Illinois first got announced, that the governor signed the bill and it passed and we were kind of watching the press afterwards, like what's the reaction of the, of the community? And I couldn't believe how Many people were responding of, I didn't know we needed to make that they can do this. What do you mean? We have to have a law that you can't do this. And so what that told me is most people don't realize that the police are, are able to lie, which is why that tactic was so powerful.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
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Dave Thompson
You don't assume that's the case.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah. Because if you don't believe a police can lie, then when they say we found the finger, your fingerprints on the weapon or whatever, now you think it's real.
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Dave Thompson
Right. We're trained.
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Co-host/Interviewer
And so again now you have to have an explanation or you start to think I did do it or.
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Dave Thompson
Exactly.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Or you know, I'm gonna get busted no matter what. Now.
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Terrell Swift
Yeah.
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Emily Simpson
What would your advice be to parents to tell their children, like if I have a 13 year old daughter, if she gets taken into, not that she would at 13, but I'm just saying as a minor, if she's in some situation where she gets taken into a police department, what advice as parents should we give to our children in a situation not to say anything? Right. Like don't, don't say a word. Just.
- [19:16]
Terrell Swift
Yeah.
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Dave Thompson
And when I say that if you got police like listening and they should be, and they think, okay, well that's great. But at the end of the day, if a investigator is being interviewed by internal affairs or by anybody, their first call is to their union rep or to an attorney.
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Terrell Swift
Right.
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Dave Thompson
They're going to do the same thing. And so yeah, you're a parent. We all assume that everybody is doing this with the right intent.
- [19:38]
Emily Simpson
Right.
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Dave Thompson
But even well intended investigators can go down the wrong path. And so, yeah, protection with advice of counsel. And even parents are not always the best people to be an interviewer either.
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Co-host/Interviewer
No, it's a step in the right direction though. It certainly, certainly is a layer of protection for the child, for the minor. But you're right, it's not foolproof.
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Dave Thompson
Well, and don't always have parents who are attorneys where part of the problem is sometimes if you get a parent who might actually facilitate a false confession by saying, you know what, hey, just tell the, tell them what they want to hear. Like just cooperate. Why are you not withholding, you know why withholding information. And so parental advice might often conflict with legal advice. And so it's definitely a layer, but sometimes actually works against the best interest.
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Co-host/Interviewer
So then, then the, the best result would really be having an attorney representing them, looking out for their interests and they're not emotionally invested in it. They're Just protecting them.
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Dave Thompson
Right.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Legally. But that's never going to happen. Huh? It's never going to be a case where the law requires legal representation during it.
- [20:39]
Dave Thompson
Yeah, we're getting there. Especially with youthful people.
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Co-host/Interviewer
So it's possible.
- [20:42]
Dave Thompson
I think it's possible. It's, you know, when you look at the practical application, there's going to be some situations where there's urgent need to talk to somebody but.
- [20:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
Or someone insists I don't want an attorney.
- [20:51]
Dave Thompson
Right, yeah, yeah, but I think we're getting there. And the other piece of legislation that seems like a no brainer to, to me is recording interviews and interrogations. Like we, a lot of these cases we have to rely on what did a police report or an affidavit say happen in that interview? What did the person being interviewed say happened?
- [21:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
What were the conditions? Like. Right, right. How long was it?
- [21:11]
Emily Simpson
What time was it?
- [21:12]
Dave Thompson
Right.
- [21:13]
Emily Simpson
I remember watching like the, the yogurt shop murders and they were interrogating them at like 4am or something. And I'm thinking, I go to bed at 9pm if you're interrogating me at 4am I'd be likely to sign a false confession if you tell me I can go home and, and be in bed. And I mean, because, you know, the exhaustion, you just want to leave the time. It, you know, it's unreal to me that you can interrogate people for that. And you said that you were there almost three days. Like was the, were they questioning you through the middle of the night?
- [21:45]
Terrell Swift
I was gonna, I was letting you finish.
- [21:47]
Emily Simpson
Okay.
- [21:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [21:48]
Terrell Swift
That's exactly how they do it. Right, right.
- [21:51]
Emily Simpson
Because they want to wear you down.
- [21:52]
Terrell Swift
Scare the hell again. I'm 17, right. Never been in any trouble, baby. Yeah. I'm like, what do you mean? I raped and killed someone. Like, no, let me call my mother, let me call my somebody because I didn't do this. Right. They throw you in the room, then you take a nap where you try to on a steel bench. They wake you up, they're taunting you coming back and forth. So it's like, it's a constant. It's a psychological torture is what I call it. It's literally a psychological torture. And again, adults can't handle it. Or a 17 year old, you know, youth. You're gonna put me through that? Tell me I'm gonna die one minute and then tell me you can go home the next. I want to go home. You just told me I can die. You know, what do I have to do to go home? I didn't do anything. So it's that easy, right? I can say that. That easy for someone to say, okay, I'll sign a confession because I want to go home. I didn't do that.
- [22:49]
Dave Thompson
So especially when you trust the investigator, when you have faith that, like, let me just get out of the situation and they'll figure it out. Right.
- [22:54]
Terrell Swift
The evidence will again. When I was going to try, I never had one doubt that I was going to get convicted.
- [23:00]
Emily Simpson
Right, you didn't do it. And you're thinking, here's the justice system. I'm going to get justice. They're going to understand that I wasn't there and there's no DNA and there's nothing linking me. So. And then it doesn't work that way. How did you, because you were in prison for 15 years, did you always hold on to the hope of that you were going to eventually be exonerated? I mean, how did you stay positive through those 15 years? How did you make it through day to day?
- [23:25]
Co-host/Interviewer
What was the light at the end of your tunnel and to stick it out?
- [23:29]
Terrell Swift
I give all praise to God because I was 17, I think I weighed like 120 pounds. I had no clue. Right. I got convicted. I was in my, my penitentiary cell and I, I was pretty much lost. I was numb from being convicted of a crime that I didn't commit. So I'm numbing in my jail cell and I was watching the news and I saw a guy get exonerated and his story was similar to mine and I'm like, holy smoke, it's not just me. So I started just writing. I called home, got some information from my mother to Northwestern center on Wrongful Convictions and Cordoza Law School in New York and just started my quest of writing. And then over the years, I would see people come home and that's what gave me hope. Like, there is light at the end of the tunnel. So what I did when I was in prison, I just went to school, put my head down. I went to college and just wrote and tried to better myself for whenever the opportunity would present itself for me to come home, and I was able to do it.
- [24:36]
Co-host/Interviewer
How long were you in prison until that came about, where you started to, to research and started to, you know, better yourself and make the, and write the letters and kind of have that
- [24:47]
Terrell Swift
hope, Wouldn't that start. I got convicted in 1998 and that started in 1999.
- [24:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Okay, so just about a year later you started to.
- [24:55]
Terrell Swift
Yep.
- [24:56]
Emily Simpson
What was the first response that you got back where someone, someone listened.
- [25:02]
Terrell Swift
They all Would listen, but they would respond with, our caseload is a little too heavy right now. Could you write us back in the spring, summer, fall, whatever? And I would do just that. I would write back. And it wasn't until 2009, mind you, I was scheduled to come home in 2010 that I actually got a letter from Northwestern saying, hey, we want to come interview you about your case. And once they came to interview me, which was In January of 2010, you know, they took the case shortly thereafter.
- [25:35]
Emily Simpson
Okay.
- [25:35]
Terrell Swift
And I was scheduled, but I came home in May of 2010, and that was on parole.
- [25:39]
Emily Simpson
Is that on parole? Correct?
- [25:40]
Dave Thompson
Yes.
- [25:41]
Emily Simpson
Okay, so when. So you knew you would be up for parole, and then I assume you went to the parole board, and then you were granted parole because you were. I assume you were a model.
- [25:53]
Terrell Swift
No, I mean, in Illinois, they don't have. They didn't have the process of going to the parole.
- [25:57]
Emily Simpson
Okay, you were just eligible for parole.
- [25:59]
Terrell Swift
I was eligible for parole, but given the nature of the offense, sex offender. So I had to register, and in order for me to come home, there were certain guidelines. Couldn't be by a park, couldn't be by school. Couldn't live with. Just really weird, right? Which, yeah, that's a whole.
- [26:17]
Emily Simpson
You weren't really free. It was like, you're on parole and you're. You're allowed to leave prison. But then, because this was a sex
- [26:23]
Co-host/Interviewer
offense, well, then he had all these restrictions that really didn't apply to you because you weren't violent in any nature.
- [26:29]
Terrell Swift
Regardless, you know, honestly, the prison was definitely hard. But when you're in prison and you try to better yourself, but when you come home, and then only to come home, couldn't do anything, it was worse than jail, in a sense. I was at home, couldn't go to. I mean, I had to fight to get a job. When I did get a job, I was terrorized at the job by law enforcement. They would come check on me, like, took me to jail from my job, went and told my boss all type of lies about the case. It was really, really difficult. I had to go to counseling, had to attend sex offender counseling.
- [27:11]
Co-host/Interviewer
It's almost less stressful in a cell, right? Because you didn't have to listen, Shane.
- [27:15]
Terrell Swift
I had to pay.
- [27:16]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Terrell Swift
I was broke, fresh out of jail. I had to pay and listen to people who have actually committed sexual offenses. And I couldn't relate to it. I was like, what? What do I want? And I had to sit through that. If not, I would go back to jail. They sent Me back to jail for that, because I'm like. They told me part of my rehabilitation was to con. You had to admit to get the treatment that you want. Right. I'm like, never. I'm 32 now. I'm like, never again will I admit to something I didn't do. You can take me back to jail. And they took me back to jail.
- [27:53]
Emily Simpson
Really?
- [27:54]
Terrell Swift
Really.
- [27:54]
Emily Simpson
I didn't know that part of your story.
- [27:56]
Terrell Swift
Yes.
- [27:56]
Emily Simpson
So you got out on parole, you had to do all this therapy and things because you're a sex offender. I mean, you're labeled. You're labeled a sex offender. You have to pay to go to these classes. And then you have to admit that you're a sex offender. And you refuse to do that.
- [28:13]
Terrell Swift
I refuse to do.
- [28:14]
Emily Simpson
So they took you back to prison?
- [28:15]
Terrell Swift
Yes, and my attorney raised all type of hell and got me out in like, seven days. But I had representation to help me. People that don't have representation. You know what, you're going back to jail.
- [28:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
And you didn't know it'd only be seven days. You didn't know if I thought I was gonna.
- [28:33]
Terrell Swift
Thought I was gonna be there until my parole time was up.
- [28:36]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [28:37]
Terrell Swift
And at that point, honestly, I couldn't do anything. I was so frustrated. I was scared to drive. Right. Law enforcement get behind my mother's car. I'm scared. I'm thinking, they're gonna pull us over. Right. So it was. I was almost like, should I just go back to jail? Because I can't do anything in. Out here in society because you won't allow me to do anything. So it was. That was being released on prison, on parole was in a lot of ways, a little bit harder than jail, in a sense, because in jail I had school, I had a routine. Right. That I could do. Here I had no routine, couldn't go anywhere, couldn't do anything. Every movement I would have to call. I need. I want to go to Ralph's. I'm going at 11 o', clock, and I'll be there from 11:30 to. To 12. And have to request the movement for
- [29:31]
Emily Simpson
every time you wanted to leave.
- [29:32]
Terrell Swift
Every time I left that.
- [29:33]
Emily Simpson
And then I assume you also had to make sure that. That Ralph's wasn't.
- [29:36]
Apollo Advertiser
What.
- [29:36]
Emily Simpson
What is it, 100ft or whatever? 100 y. A school zone or something.
- [29:41]
Terrell Swift
So it was, it was really. It was. It was really. It was difficult.
- [29:46]
Emily Simpson
So then you got to the point, though, where you weren't only just out on parole, but you were actually exonerated. That's Correct. Was that through. What organization was that through? That?
- [29:55]
Terrell Swift
It was through Northwestern center on Wrongful Convictions of you.
- [29:59]
Emily Simpson
Okay, so they actually had your conviction overturned.
- [30:02]
Terrell Swift
Correct? Yeah.
- [30:03]
Emily Simpson
Right. And then once that happened, then you could. Was it more. Did you move more freely at that point? Were you.
- [30:09]
Terrell Swift
Yeah, I was able to move freely at that point because I had a. Again, I had a monitor on and then I had a GPS tracker, which was like the old cell phones. Right. The brick phones back in the 80s
- [30:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
that you had to carry with you.
- [30:21]
Terrell Swift
I carry that with me everywhere I went. But after that, I was able to, you know, get that normalcy back, so to speak.
- [30:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
I imagine it wasn't overnight, though. Right. Like, the next day you didn't just wake up and felt free to move about. Did it take a while to feel that you were free to move about however you wish without having to call and someone looking over your shoulder, getting pulled over and.
- [30:45]
Terrell Swift
No, that first day I was like, I'm free. I'm out.
- [30:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
Oh, wow. Okay, good.
- [30:49]
Dave Thompson
Oh, good.
- [30:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
I'm glad I was there.
- [30:51]
Emily Simpson
There was no ramping up period.
- [30:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
You've been waiting for that day.
- [30:56]
Terrell Swift
I was on house arrest for. I came in May. May of 2010, and I was. The case was overturned in October, about 2011. So it was like 18 months.
- [31:09]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:10]
Terrell Swift
So I was like, I'm gone.
- [31:11]
Co-host/Interviewer
Good.
- [31:12]
Terrell Swift
Let me go out because I've been wanting to go out. Right. Couldn't even go out past 12. So I stayed out, actually. Just went and stayed with my grandmother the first night. My first full night of being free.
- [31:22]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah. Sleepover, huh?
- [31:23]
Terrell Swift
I just went and slept over with my grandmother and just hung out with her, so, yeah.
- [31:27]
Emily Simpson
Oh, that's really sweet. How was your mom during all of that?
- [31:33]
Terrell Swift
It's still a struggle.
- [31:34]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. Is your mom and your mom still alive?
- [31:36]
Terrell Swift
Yeah, she is. She's still alive, thankfully, and doing well. Her and my sister, they live in Las Vegas now.
- [31:42]
Emily Simpson
Okay.
- [31:42]
Terrell Swift
But it was a struggle. It still is. You know, my mother is still dealing with trauma from what happened to me, from her baby being snatched away from her and her not feeling like she's not. She wasn't there to protect me.
- [31:56]
Co-host/Interviewer
The helplessness that she felt, she feels.
- [31:59]
Terrell Swift
She still feels that no matter what I do now, as far as passing legislation, what I do, as far as speaking, she still. There's nothing I can do to fill that void. Right.
- [32:10]
Emily Simpson
Well, she missed so many years with you. I mean, you were taken away at 17.
- [32:14]
Terrell Swift
Yeah.
- [32:14]
Emily Simpson
And you were gone for nearly 15 years.
- [32:16]
Dave Thompson
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Emily Simpson
I mean, I can't imagine I have three kids. I can't imagine just one day they. They end up in a police station.
- [32:24]
Co-host/Interviewer
Like they say, survivor's guilt. Right. So almost like I would feel guilty as a parent. Like, am I supposed to go out and have fun? Am I allowed to have a nice dinner when my child is wrongfully, you know, incarcerated? It would be very hard. So I imagine your mother had a really tough time just being able to be herself without having that on her mind. And the emotions. That would be really heavy.
- [32:46]
Terrell Swift
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Dave Thompson
What inspires me about this guy among everything you just heard? But you hear that story and think you'd be full of hatred and anger.
- [32:54]
Emily Simpson
He's not, though.
- [32:55]
Dave Thompson
No. And we've become close friends and done so much stuff together. And when he talked about, like, nobody. Nobody would listen. You want somebody to listen. Like, people listen now to this man. And he's making an impact. When. When Terrell shares his experience was. It's traumatic every time you share it. Like, it's. Even though he said it a million times, I'm sure there's. There's trauma there. When he shares that in front of other law enforcement, investigators, legislative bodies, other people who are in similar situations, like, it just sends shockwaves through the system.
- [33:22]
Co-host/Interviewer
Now they're listening.
- [33:23]
Dave Thompson
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
- [33:25]
Terrell Swift
Especially because that part. There's no. You can. There's no hate. I don't hate law enforcement. Right. I dislike the people that did this to me. Right. And my hatred is not gonna push the needle forward. Right. I figured, like Dave said, it's people who have enough resentment towards law enforcement. I don't need to add to it. I wanna make the situation better.
- [33:47]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [33:47]
Terrell Swift
And me making it better by me being able to come out and speak to law enforcement, with law enforcement to help push the needle forward is. I feel like what God has put me through, what I went through to get out and deliver this message.
- [33:59]
Emily Simpson
That's such an inspiring message that you walked away from that situation not hateful, but wanting to make a change. And the fact that you. How did you meet Dave? How did you guys end up working together and working on the legislation?
- [34:13]
Dave Thompson
And then we did another TV appearance thing. He always looks better than me.
- [34:16]
Emily Simpson
Yeah, he does look good.
- [34:18]
Dave Thompson
I'm sorry. This brick phone you're talking about. That's why your biceps are so damn big. No, but we. We got to work on that together. And so cool to hear, you know, Especially if you're trying to pitch something to a legislative body and you're hearing it from an academic Space, maybe at law enforcement training. And you hear from somebody with a lived experience, it's just so much more impactful. And you're just connected over the years. And it's always cool to do this. This kind of thing together because. And then when you use the. The platform of media, which you guys have, it just helps educate the juror, like the public. And I think that's what all these. This exposure is just so good to change the system.
- [35:02]
Emily Simpson
What do you want the listeners takeaway to be? Terrell, when you tell your story and Dave, when you tell what you're involved in, what do you hope people take away after listening to this?
- [35:11]
Dave Thompson
I think there's two. Two separate things. One is, understand investigators do have a difficult job.
- [35:16]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [35:16]
Dave Thompson
You have to try to sit across from somebody and you have a lot of pressure from the community from representing the victim for public safety. How do I get reliable information? What are the tools? And so that's what we're here trying to help educate investigators. So there's that piece. And then the second piece is don't take a confession as gold evidence. Right. We talked about that earlier. You can have DNA evidence and witness identification, but if somebody said I did it, it's so hard for people to get past the idea. True. Yeah. And so I think if you have a chance to be on a jury or even if you're just sitting on your couch watching a movie about a case just because somebody said I did it, try to figure out how did we get to that process. Right. How did we get to the end result? And that might give you a little more skepticism about the reliability of it.
- [36:02]
Emily Simpson
So you're saying the takeaway should be for listeners out there, if you ever have the opportunity to sit on a jury, to be more mindful, to be more analytical, to listen more, to dig deeper, not to take everything at face value, I think. Is that what the takeaway would be?
- [36:16]
Dave Thompson
You think if you're just watching true crime, you're saying, okay, there's fingerprint evidence, and there's usually an expert that says, well, here's how we lifted the fingerprint and here's the type of match that we use when it comes to confession evidence. Start thinking the same way. Like, how did we get there? What was the process that was used? And investigators should do the same thing. So, yeah, a little more skepticism. Information.
- [36:35]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [36:35]
Dave Thompson
And we're all guilty of it. Like, we're talking about police. But parents have told their kids, my parents told me that my mom's got eyes on the back of her head forever. Yeah, that's the false evidence ploy. Like we've lied to our kids to get confessions. Like it's gut feelings and things that we've.
- [36:49]
Emily Simpson
I mean, I tell my kids McDonald's is closed.
- [36:51]
Dave Thompson
Exactly.
- [36:53]
Emily Simpson
It never is.
- [36:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
You know, you make a good point, though, about, like, if they want to show a fingerprint or something, they have to have an expert. Right.
- [37:01]
Emily Simpson
Or.
- [37:01]
Co-host/Interviewer
Or blood splatter samples or whatever. They have experts come in and really dissect it a lot. So much that I think a lot of it goes over our heads. Right. We're like, I don't know, they crack the skull, crack. So we died. That's all I know. Yeah, but same with a confession. But you read a confession or you hear confession, you just. That you run with it. Oh, okay. He said he did it. She said he did it. That's it. Yeah, but you. Why not? Why not dig further? Well, what's it actually say? I don't know if you hand wrote it, but what did it actually say in the video when they confessed or when they wrote it down or what were the circumstances surrounding that?
- [37:34]
Dave Thompson
Right. And watch the whole movie, not just the end.
- [37:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:37]
Dave Thompson
So a lot of courts are now allowing experts to talk about confession evidence and social science, which is great. But when it's recorded, we've also seen. All right, let's just watch the end of the movie. You know, here's the. Here's the confession versus let's watch the whole thing.
- [37:50]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right. The 72 hours that he was.
- [37:53]
Dave Thompson
The first time I taught a class to police on false confessions. I was trying to think, how do I. Like you mentioned, I don't want to offend the investigator. I want to help educate on the change. So I showed just the end. I said, here's a confession. What do you all think? And it seemed it's reliable. There's details. It's like, how would you not believe this to be true? Then I went through all the clauses of false confessions, lying about evidence and leading questions and threats and promises. And then we watched the first two hours before the confession and after the class. Nobody believed this confession to be true. And it's the same thing that juries have to go through. And triers of fact is like, what led to that.
- [38:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's crazy. You got them to draw their own conclusion. Oh, my gosh. I thought this was valid.
- [38:33]
Dave Thompson
Right.
- [38:33]
Co-host/Interviewer
And legitimate. And now I've seen that it's not.
- [38:37]
Dave Thompson
That's how I. I feel like you need to impact change. People need to experience it versus just being told to do it. Yeah.
- [38:42]
Terrell Swift
And that's how the jury gets it. Right. Just the package. Here's the, here's a statement. This is what it is. But not taking into account things that the stress or the pressures that were the things that was promised leading up to this confession that got them to this false confession. So very powerful.
- [38:59]
Emily Simpson
What, what for you, Terrell, is the most rewarding about what you do Now I know that you're pushing for legislation. I know. Do you, you also work with, I think both of you. Do you work with new exonerees on just working to assimilate back into life and do you mentor and what is it that you're doing now?
- [39:15]
Terrell Swift
Yeah, I mean I've been doing a couple things now. Have worked for organization Life after Justice. All exoneray lived, experience led organization that's trying to exactly that attack this problem through the mental health aspect. We're trying to, you know, have you know, mental health resources for people that come home. We're trying to, you know, we have a survey where we're compiling just different, different information and feedback from the community on things that's really needed because the community is. We're missing a lot. Right. We don't, we don't have, we don't have resources. Come home. It's crazy to say this, but a person who has actually done a crime has more resources at his disposal than someone who has not who has.
- [40:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
It triggers a lot of. Of programs.
- [40:03]
Terrell Swift
Yeah, you have, you have re entry programs and stuff like that. You know, they may not be the best, but at least you can.
- [40:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
But it's something.
- [40:09]
Terrell Swift
You are, you have something. When you're exonerated, you are.
- [40:13]
Co-host/Interviewer
No, you're not eligible for any of that.
- [40:15]
Terrell Swift
Yeah, you're not eligible for. Not to go.
- [40:16]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's some irony, right?
- [40:17]
Terrell Swift
Good luck with life. You know, you go get a job. Where have you been last 15, 20 years? You have to go through what is going what. What happened to you, right. So you have to explain it and
- [40:30]
Emily Simpson
try to lay it all out and make it make sense to someone.
- [40:32]
Terrell Swift
And it's triggering, right. And it's like you want to just get out and live and move on, but every step get an apartment, you know, job, whatever. Where have you been these last X amount of years? And again you have to reopen those wounds. So we're trying to with Life after Justice. We're trying to make it a smoother Runway for you know, exonerees and free people when they come home to have something to you know, to hold on to. I also work with, back in Illinois, the wrongful conviction. It's called wrongful conviction avoidance and awareness. And we go out and we speak to cadet law enforcement in Illinois. We're trying to get this class pushed in different states. But that is so. That has been so rewarding. It's myself and a host of other exonerees, and we go to speak to different cadets that, you know, that gets hired throughout the Illinois region, whether it be Chicago Police Department, southern Illinois. We go out and talk to them and let them know our experience so that they can avoid the same pitfalls that led to us being wrongfully convicted. So I'm truly happy to do that. I mean, I love doing that because that's pushing the needle forward. Right. I love doing the legislative work to ultimately, you know, put barriers to not allow law enforcement to lie to the youth. But we shouldn't be lying to anybody for that matter, especially, like Dave said, with the technology that we have now. But the most, you know, I'm happy about that and most happy about, you know, I'm a proud new dad. You know, that's right. I am a proud new dad of my son born May 3rd.
- [42:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
And is it a Terrell Junior?
- [42:09]
Terrell Swift
No, Terrell Little. Nasir. Nasir Amari Swift. That is my son's name. So he was born May 3, 2026. And I was released from prison May 3, 2010. So that's a lot of wisdom.
- [42:25]
Emily Simpson
That's. That's so interesting. Coincidental. Maybe not. I don't know, but that's really cool. And Terrell, also, he. You have three daughters, too. So I've met Terrell's wife. He has a beautiful wife named Lynette. And he has three daughters that I've met. Gorgeous, polite. You have such a beautiful family.
- [42:44]
Terrell Swift
Thank you. So, yeah.
- [42:45]
Emily Simpson
And I'm so. And congratulations on your new son. And every time I see you and I see your girls and I. And I see Lynette, I just. It makes me so happy that you took such a horrible situation that you had to go through, and you have created such a beautiful life. And the fact that you've taken your beautiful life and then you go out there and you continue to speak and like you said, push the needle forward and educate and talk about what you went through is so inspiring. So thank you so much for what you do.
- [43:14]
Terrell Swift
Thank you.
- [43:14]
Emily Simpson
And thank you for being here and sharing your story. It means so much, and I'm sure that our listeners will be impacted by it. And, Dave, thank you for sharing your knowledge. And if there's anyone out there in a police department that would like some education, please reach out to us because I think it's so important what you do, Dave.
- [43:31]
Dave Thompson
So thank you guys for the platform. And my job's easier because of trail. Sharing stories like it so makes it makes it much more impactful.
- [43:38]
Emily Simpson
You guys are a good team. Yeah. Great working with you. So thank you guys, both of you, for being here. We appreciate it so much. All right, thank you guys so much for listening to Legally Brunette. As always, you can follow us on our own feed. If you have any recommendations of cases or anything you would like to hear about, please DM me. I appreciate it. And also, please tell your friends and family also, if you would like to donate, you can donate to the Innocence Center. When I post this clip, I'll put up a link to donate. As always, the Innocence center needs money to be able to function and to provide services and legal support for people that are wrongfully convicted.
- [44:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Center, is it Innocence center?
- [44:15]
Emily Simpson
It's innocence center.org $5, $500, $5 million. Whatever you have, you know, it's. It's always helpful and we appreciate it so much. So thank you for listening. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.