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- [00:00]
Aubrey O'Day
This is an iHeart podcast. Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day.
- [00:08]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Covering the Diddy trial.
- [00:11]
Aubrey O'Day
Okay, so, hey, guys, we are. We are back. We are now in the home stretch. Officially, the government has rested and the defense has rested. But let me first introduce my guest, Elizabeth Wagmeister. She is my favorite. Favorite journalist of all time. The most epic ever. Elizabeth was the one that obtained the video of Cassie being horrifically beat in the hallway and was able to bring it to the forefront and start the really big discussion that has become this trial of Diddy and his behavior. That video was a it for me. I'll just speak from on my own end. That was the first time anyone on the victim side got to breathe. A lot of lawsuits. A lot of things were going on during that time. That video was the very first thing that I noticed. A majority of my cell phone was like, oh, my God. Like, I can take a breath. A majority of people that write me, they felt like maybe people will believe them a little bit. And it was the first time they had ever gotten the chance to feel that in their life.
- [01:32]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
What's so interesting about that? And, you know, I'm hearing you speak from your perspective and the perspective of other people that you had been in touch with. But what's so interesting, and this feels like such a long time ago because now we're at the tail end of the trial. But remember that when our team at cnn, when we broke that footage, remember that Sean Combs had denied everything in Cassie's lawsuit before that he released a statement denying the claims. Now, he did not get into the specifics, but when her lawsuit came out, he said that it was entirely untrue. That's not a quote. I'm paraphrasing.
- [02:11]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah, I guess. I guess him paying her off within 24 hours kind of killed that for all of us in the streets.
- [02:16]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
But here's what was so interesting. I'm glad you brought up that there was a settlement, because you remember that his attorney at the time, who's no longer representing him, released a statement to the media at that point saying that a settlement is in no way an admission of guilt. And then, what do you know? We released this video, which is obviously horrific in every which way.
- [02:37]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah.
- [02:37]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And it wasn't until then that we got the apology.
- [02:42]
Aubrey O'Day
Well, here's. Here's what's crazy, too. Were you not tripping when you were in court? Because another thing, for everyone listening, she's in court every day. So this is my first chance to really get to speak with someone that is. Of course, I speak to people inside the courtroom every day, all day. But for my audience, this is the first time we're getting in a true insider's perspective of the room. So I wanted, I do want to spend a lot of our time asking you about the way that things are looking.
- [03:06]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I didn't realize that. I honestly didn't realize that I was your first guest who's inside the courtroom.
- [03:11]
Aubrey O'Day
So, yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, lot of journalists that come forward or that talk about this are not sitting there like you are watching every single thing. Like, even for your own company, you'll go in and do reports on scene or you see reports on scene when you watch any. Any news company. But to sit down and like, have a heart to heart with somebody that's truly observing everything, it really does open your perspective much wider. So tell me what it looked like for him to stand up. I heard he's skinnier than normal. There's reports about gray gums. I don't know what that means or doesn't mean. My people have been telling me different things. The hair being very gray.
- [03:54]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Haircut this week, by the way.
- [03:56]
Aubrey O'Day
Oh, there was a haircut this week.
- [03:57]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
There was a haircut this week.
- [03:58]
Aubrey O'Day
Maybe that helped with the energy, because today's energy in writing came like a bullet through my heart with the. I'm great. Thank you so much, Judge. You're doing a great job. Are you in charge of the whole jury and room and are you congratulating the judge on doing a great job?
- [04:18]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, the first thing is that's really important. The jury was not present for that.
- [04:23]
Aubrey O'Day
So the jury didn't even get to hear him say, I'm choosing not to testify.
- [04:28]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
No.
- [04:29]
Aubrey O'Day
Why?
- [04:30]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
The jury was on the lunch break. And then that is when, as you said with this Rule 29, that his defense filed a motion for acquittal. They are asking the judge to say that he's not guilty on all five charges. That happens not in the presence of the jury. And then, as you said, the judge didn't make a decision. So the judge basically said, I'm not going to rule on this right now.
- [04:53]
Aubrey O'Day
But in 99% of the times, judges never rule on Rule 29 motions. They want to leave it up to the jury. I highly doubt it's going to happen here.
- [05:02]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Oh, no, it would be. It would be the biggest shock.
- [05:05]
Aubrey O'Day
It would be the biggest shock. By the way, I wanted to say to you, tell them, tell me exactly how it looked. But also I wanted to say to you Before I forget, so analyze this. When you come back with your response. It felt scary, like a freight train, like a bullet through my heart. But then when I sat with it for a second, I thought, if I'm a judge and you feel mighty as a judge, you go through a whole lot of schooling, a whole lot of test taking, a whole lot of mastering in order to get that position condition. To have somebody who you've had to watch and freak off and watch women testify, all kinds of different things. To have to watch that with a straight face and then have that same man first words over to you be, hey, great job. You're doing a good job, bud. Go home and feel some kind of way about that type of arrogance. Did he receive it with arrogance? Was there any of that in his facial look?
- [05:58]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
So here's what I'll tell you. This judge, I've covered a lot of trials. This judge, incredibly fair, and he has complete control over the courtroom. He has control. He's very jury conscious. He has control over both parties. So he kind of chuckled when he said, you know, thank you to him. Wow. But you wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to tell if he found it arrogant or if he found it endearing. But all that I have to tell you is this is a judge, as all judges should be. But this is.
- [06:27]
Aubrey O'Day
How long was the chuckle, Elizabeth?
- [06:29]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Oh, it was quick. Like, it, like, this was a comment of like, okay, moving on. You know, like, he responded to be polite because as a human, you have to respond to someone.
- [06:37]
Aubrey O'Day
No, he definitely felt the narcissism on it. It's off putting. I feel like that's a stumble of off put. That's not like a, wow, I feel so lucky that the guy that was just in that video pissing all over people is telling me I did a great job.
- [06:51]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, remember, this is also the judge who. Remember when Diddy was trying to be released on bail as he was awaiting him.
- [06:58]
Aubrey O'Day
Yep, three times.
- [07:00]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Three times that. This is the judge that. The third time, he would not release them on bail because he agreed with prosecutors that Diddy was a danger to society. So I think this judge is very focused on the fact, very focused on the evidence, the testimony. Something like a polite comment is not going anywhere. It's not the judge's decision.
- [07:20]
Aubrey O'Day
What's. What's crazy is, is like, it's almost. I know, you know, as well as I mastered, as a student of people, I would say I do that better than singing as a student of people. I watched Diddy for many years People are going to look at it like, oh, he's so arrogant. He thinks he run things like how I said, wild king night. You're in charge of the room. He must just never be able to get out of that mind state of. He's the boss. It's in there. But I read it as a tell in a negative way. I read it as a tell a little bit in. I really need your help tomorrow. I need you to give my attorneys a little bit of. Of the okie doke when they come at you with how we're wording some of these things.
- [08:09]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, look, I mean, this is.
- [08:11]
Aubrey O'Day
It's gonna come down to how they word things. This trial is not a slam dunk, unfortunately. And a lot of people are confused by that. A lot of victims are pissed off by that, but it's just not a slam dunk, unfortunately.
- [08:25]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
It's not. It's not at all. And look, sex crimes are incredibly difficult to prosecute. It is a staggering small percentage of how many sex crimes are even prosecuted. So the fact that this is even in a courtroom is really unbelievable.
- [08:45]
Aubrey O'Day
Truly, if I take my emotions off of it, it's just coming down to consent. And here's what I'm finding. In a lot of the things that were submitted by defense, there was a lot of, in writing proof that Sean was paying for the escorts.
- [08:59]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
There was. And actually, so can we talk about that?
- [09:02]
Aubrey O'Day
Because you just really hurt your. You guys stumbled a little bit. The prosecution had a point where they came in and were like, wait, so did you just say that he paid you to transport somebody over across lines to commit, like, whoops, today I fucked up.
- [09:17]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right? So let me tell you exactly how that went down, because, you know, there's five charges. There's racketeering, sex trafficking, and transportation to engage in prostitution. So this summary witness who's been on. Was on the witness stand for three days, the prosecution's final witness, as you know, and I won't bore you with this, but basically he went through charts and charts and charts and charts. And in the courtroom, it's actually really boring.
- [09:41]
Aubrey O'Day
But I heard people are falling asleep.
- [09:43]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
But here's the thing. It actually can prove to be one of the most crucial witnesses because he. It may be boring to listen to, but this witness presented evidence. And now where's that evidence going into the hands of the jury when they're in the deliberation room. So when they see that there's thousands of pages of phone records, hotel records, flight records, text messages, bank statements, and those flight records are showing that male escort, you know, number one, whatever, you.
- [10:11]
Aubrey O'Day
Know, being flown from here to there.
- [10:13]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
From here to there. So the moment that you're talking about, which I would say for the prosecution.
- [10:19]
Aubrey O'Day
I heard it woke everyone up.
- [10:21]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
It was a mic drop moment. So on redirect, of course, the prosecution goes first. Then cross examination was a day and a half. And then the prosecutor, Maureen Comey, she gets up there. This is not an exact quote, but she looks at the witness and she said, the exhibits that you showed, wasn't that proof of traveling Cabral across state lines? And then you hear objection. And then the judge. And then she asked it in another way. And then, objection sustained. And then she finally said, didn't Cabral fly from Atlanta to Miami on a flight paid by Mr. Combs? And they said, yes. What is so strategic and smart of both? When the prosecution and the defense does this, they ask questions that they know there's going to be an objection to. They know it will be sustained. It will not be in the testimony. Meaning when the jury's deliberating, they're not.
- [11:13]
Aubrey O'Day
Looking at that, but they don't forget it. You don't ever forget it.
- [11:17]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
There's a phrase in courtrooms which is, you can't unring that bell, by the.
- [11:31]
Aubrey O'Day
Way, A lot of court cases are just decided by that little tiny word you just said, that little tiny pocket. If you were to be looking at a pie chart, it's like a little sliver of cherry pie. But really, it's where a trial's guts are.
- [11:45]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Exactly.
- [11:46]
Aubrey O'Day
Then those objections that are not going to be put on record. But you still heard as a jury.
- [11:52]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Exactly right.
- [11:54]
Aubrey O'Day
Brian still is a genius at that. Actually, all of Diddy's team has been killing that this entire trial. They've been doing a great job at that. What you're seeing in a lot of the writing are moments of consent. But what you're hearing on the stand is that moment of consent is this is actually where I was and how I felt when I wrote this message. That looks damning if you just were to see the message in black and white. But when you have the person on the stand saying, when I said, oh, I want to be extra dirty this time, in my head, I was in my room knowing that he was with the other girl and that he loved me when I did this and that he was going to leave me or go off with this other person or that he wouldn't even spend time with me this week, and I would feel like low self worth, no value as A person. My whole life, my identity was attached to him. I couldn't even literally drive a car, leave a house without being reported on. And I wanted his attention. And so I offered him up some free pictures or sex talk or chat in order to engage him, because he showed these women exactly what their value was enough times to know what it is they have to do in order to be exciting to them. And when he loses interest, which basically is coercion, that's what music industry coercion looks like. Baby girl, let me tell you what this is, that baby girl line of his. Oh, man, we all know it so well. Baby girl, this is what it is. This is how your body needs to look, and this is how you need to be if you want my attention, this is what you need to do if you want a platinum album. This is what you need to do if you want to have daddy's money and attention. It's all coercion in one way or another. It's somebody very powerful against people that are so don't even understand the power system.
- [13:41]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And, you know, this is exactly why the prosecution has spent so much time on baby oil. Baby oil, baby oil, hotel rooms, hotel rooms, you know, all these things. And I obviously follow all the commentary on TikTok on social media everywhere. And a lot of people are saying, we get it. He had the freak off. Like, why do you keep bringing this up? But you bring up a really smart point, because if a juror believes that this pattern, when you have done this to multiple women, even if they're girlfriends, consensual girlfriends, if this is the behavior that you expect from these women, and it may not seem normal to a lot of these jurors, then they may think exactly what you're saying, Aubrey, which is, wow, that does feel like coercion. And even if these women, in text and in person, agreed to it, seem willing, I keep saying throughout this trial, this is going to come down to, does the jury believe what they see in evidence, or do they believe what they've heard? And that's why these things are so hard to prove, because it can be very, very confusing and complex.
- [14:45]
Aubrey O'Day
Cassie and Jane, for me, I mean, I know them both. I've been around them both. I've seen how both operate and maneuver. Two different. Totally different human beings, two totally different women. I. I know what the jurors are seeing because I know who these people are. I know how they act. I know what their mannerisms are. I've studied them. I've been around them enough to Understand them. I know how they come up. I don't know how they came up in the room. But you, as somebody who was an observer, who don't. Didn't know them in a prior life and was just observing them during this trial, if you're a person in the jury or a bystander in the room in general, were you able to see that these two girls may have different intentions when they operate?
- [15:26]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
These are two completely different women.
- [15:28]
Aubrey O'Day
And it was clear to you you wouldn't get them mixed up even if you were a man who doesn't think about women in that many diverse categories potentially, I believe it's as clear as.
- [15:38]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Day that these are very different women. Now, is there crossover? Yes. If you are maybe a more, you know, a juror with more conservative belief. And I'm not saying that politically, I mean like conservative meaning that you would never go to a sex party and that everything you're hearing is disgusting to you. They may say, and quite frankly. Sorry, I'm going on a tangent now, but something that I have been thinking of, knowing these jury behaviors and how they deliberate, there can be a fair amount of slut shaming from these jurors on these women because they.
- [16:15]
Aubrey O'Day
I want to. I want to be honest with you. I'm doing it at home. I'm just going to straight up say it as a woman. I don't believe in it. I don't like it. I stand against it. I. I absolutely despise any thoughts like that. And I want to be honest. I've had thoughts like that during this trial. I don't go and broadcast them. I have personal friends that I'll express them to that I know will hold that discretion for me to be able to get something out of my body that is necessary for me to be able to keep my bias in check all the way up until the first person got on the stand. I judged that person too many times. And I am the first celebrity that forward and took up for her. I don't even know how many did after me. Frankly, not many. But I was the first person to come forward in this industry and say, I back, Cassie.
- [17:07]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
You were. I remember I was on air and I saw what you wrote and I read it on air.
- [17:12]
Aubrey O'Day
Correct. And I had moments where I had to. Where I really had to, like, make sure I was standing on 10 toes. Because there were things I saw. There were willing days and I was sitting all the way up to her taking the stand. Like, man, oh man, I hope she is honest and I hope it is what I thought it was when I saw it. You know, this is somebody that was so naive, was so young, was so unaware of so many things and got swept into this world that is like a. Is like Disneyland on crack and then it hands you crack.
- [17:45]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right? Okay, so actually, this is the difference. This is the main difference between Cassie and Jane. And if I'm. This is from my observation in the courtroom, and if I'm a juror, this is what I'm thinking. The main difference is Kathy was 19 years old. She was signed to Bad Boy. She was given a 10 record deal, which is not something that exists. And then suddenly she's on the label. She comes out with this huge hit, which only he can control, and then she's his girlfriend. Jane, on the other hand, was not 19. She was a grown woman later in life, and she was girl. She said she was a girlfriend. So whatever you want to call it, she was not a musician. She was not on his label. Her career was not in his hands.
- [18:32]
Aubrey O'Day
She.
- [18:33]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
She testified to this. She was. He was pursuing her, and she was pursuing him. So very different women in very different stories. And that's why, you know, after Jane's testimony, a lot of our legal analysts on CNN were saying, why would the prosecutors call Jane, she is now damaged. Cassie's testimony.
- [18:54]
Aubrey O'Day
What were their responses to that? Because I feel. I felt like they. First of all, I felt like she was on longer than Cassie. I don't know if she was, but it felt like she was.
- [19:01]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
No, she was Cassie with four days and Jane was six days.
- [19:04]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah, like, I didn't need six days of her, number one. Number two, once she started getting past a certain point, I was wondering, like, why are we continuing this? Like, it's starting to bleed into Cassie. I was feeling it's starting to take over Cassie and Cassie's. She got done. And I was like, I am so glad that I stood by her. She told the truth. She told the hard truths. She told the days where she wanted things right. She agreed to things. She was transparent about who she was and able to identify who that hurt person was. And she's been able to grow enough to be able to reflect on that. And I felt all of it was like. It all felt like. It felt like it sat right in my heart. In regards to defending it being in.
- [19:51]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
The courtroom, it really resonated now.
- [19:55]
Aubrey O'Day
Now, did Jane resonate with the jury?
- [19:58]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I think Jane is so complex because she's sitting there on the stand saying that my attorney representing me today is being paid by Sean Combs, the home in which I'm living with my kid is being paid.
- [20:08]
Aubrey O'Day
You can take her off the stand right then and there. Why the fuck is he there?
- [20:12]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
This was a gift to the defense, and that's why she was on the stand for so long, because the defense had a field day with her and they weren't going to let her off the stand. And that's the risk you run anytime you bring on a complex witness. But I bring up these patterns, which I said a few moments ago. Even if many people think that Jane was a very problematic witness, and she certainly may prove to be, there is an element of pattern that shows. I'm not talking about the women's conduct. I'm talking about Sean Combs.
- [20:45]
Aubrey O'Day
There were patterns in the. They want. He wants them in costumes, he wants them lubed up. White nails, the hair a certain way, the nails a certain way. The. The scenes, the scenarios with the escorts. The same patterns of behaviors, the same setups. The constant desires and text messages and communications to. For them to reach out to these men and get dick photos and. And that even sexual interactions with that.
- [21:13]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Based on their testimony is a form, a major form of control where they are the ones who are now making these arrangements.
- [21:29]
Aubrey O'Day
I have a question. When you watch the jury and they had the headphones on and they were watching the videos that you don't get to see. Correct?
- [21:36]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Correct.
- [21:37]
Aubrey O'Day
What were the visuals? What were the facials giving?
- [21:39]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I have to tell you, this jury, like, they have poker faces. Let me put it this way. When the headphones are on, there's really no visible reaction from any of the jurors.
- [21:50]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah.
- [21:50]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Now it's a fool's errand to guess what a juror is thinking.
- [21:53]
Aubrey O'Day
I know.
- [21:55]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
After we'll do an interview and we'll be totally wrong.
- [21:59]
Aubrey O'Day
I heard the same thing you said. The videos, there wasn't anything to grab. Nobody was moving their faces like that. You didn't see anybody show horror.
- [22:07]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
So do you remember the jury didn't see the Freak off videos until really the past week. Before, they'd only seen. Still.
- [22:16]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
That first time, which, again, was the first time they had seen any sexually explicit content. That was the first and only time, really, that I saw one of the jurors, a woman, seemed a bit horrified and shocked by it. But I think, as it goes on, a, I think they could be a bit desensitized to this, or B, they know that they should have a poker face because they know that the media is in there and they know that we're looking at them.
- [22:43]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah. And you don't want to be sitting there having. First of all, you don't. You got to be real careful with the facial when you're watching pornography in front of the world.
- [22:51]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And also, can I tell you, that is something I thought of. I mean, they've watched a lot of footage over the past week. Like, how uncomfortable you. Eighteen jurors sitting next to each other and they're all watching porn.
- [23:03]
Aubrey O'Day
I mean, listen, I've opened up porn before in my lifetime. I'm 41 years old. I've watched porn before. If I come across a girl getting on her knees with her mouth open, dressed up as a dolly and heels getting pissed, men pissing in her mouth, I'm not getting. I'm immediately off of that entire site and onto something else. And I'm having, like, horrified thoughts for a few days. And I'm not really even going to go near anything for a hot second because it's just a little traumatizing a bit like, just yuck.
- [23:34]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, so here's what's interesting. So I don't know nobody besides the jury and the attorneys know what is in those videos.
- [23:40]
Aubrey O'Day
And I've had people that were in the courtroom that had hearing like I do and did hear some. And some groans and some.
- [23:46]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
There was a day where you could hear everything smacking on.
- [23:49]
Aubrey O'Day
I heard baby oil smacking on walls a lot.
- [23:53]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Yeah, no, you could. There was one day in particular that you could hear and then they realized that you could hear. So then they started turning off the mics.
- [24:02]
Aubrey O'Day
I mean, there was a moment in Cassie's testimony where I was like, dead sold. And I didn't really even need to hear anything else. I would just believe whatever she wants to say in the charges and just go from there. She said we were all. I was dressed up like a doll. However, in the costume, he wanted my hair right. And these hooker. The hooker heels he wants them wearing, though, I think of like tripper heels or whatever. You have to go to a special place and get these heels. I only know this because we had a dance in them half the time in a girl group. But you have to like, go to custom places. You can't just get these heels at Steve Madden, right? And, like, they have these custom heels. And she's like, we're all standing in this fucking pool, inflatable pool with like. And Cassie was like, I don't know. We were standing in there. We kept asking us to get down and bathe in the. In the oil. And we were Just standing there and like it. We were like looking at each other like what the fuck are we doing? This is stupid.
- [24:57]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right?
- [24:59]
Aubrey O'Day
For me captivated me because it wasn't sexy, it wasn't hot, it wasn't even. I'm attempting to do a look in a moment for my man. I love it was giving everyone in the room is uncomfortable and feels this is weird as bro with the camera weirdo over there. What do you want us to do? What are we doing? We don't know what to do. This is weird.
- [25:19]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well that's why these women have said that they felt like they were there to live out his fantasy. I from sitting there every day. You know that's what the defense has been doing is anyone who worked for him it was didn't he do great things for your career and how do you feel about him today? And with the exes, you know, how do you feel about him today? No one on the stand, not even Cassie said I hate his guts. Not one person.
- [25:42]
Aubrey O'Day
What did she say?
- [25:44]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
She said something to the effect of God, I wish I had the transfer in front of me. But something to the effect of I don't hate him, it's just not in me. And it was very powerful because she was basically showing I don't have I'm rehashing her testimony and summarizing. She was basically trying to make the point. I don't have a vendetta. This is not out of sight. But I'm here to do what's right and what happened to me is not okay. And remember when she was asked why she was there, she said it was to right wrong. Because even though she is testifying that she was victimized, she also feels participated in criminal behavior.
- [26:25]
Aubrey O'Day
She even said it on the stand. I didn't know was criminal when I was doing. And then they tried stopping her.
- [26:31]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Exactly. Exactly.
- [26:32]
Aubrey O'Day
Wasn't aware that every there was a point where she started realizing what was criminal and what wasn't. That's what troubled me with Jane's testimony so much is girl. If you were confused when it was made black and white and writing in a lawsuit, you should have unconfused yourself. And then when you actually saw the video on cnn you really should have unconfused yourself. You shouldn't have been looking at takes of his apology videos. Did you notice that? Did you also trip out on that? Because I was thinking of you in that moment. Like you were sitting there knowing what you had in your hands and what was about to be shown to the world while another girl Was sitting there combing through his apology videos, trying to figure out which one seems more most since she even says that he showed me a video and I felt he didn't seem sincere in it. A different one was posted.
- [27:20]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I will tell you for me has been pretty wild sitting in court and putting the pieces together because there's a lot that even I didn't know, which is finding out, you know how Sean Combs found out about that? You know, of course.
- [27:36]
Aubrey O'Day
What did they say? How did he find out? I didn't know that part.
- [27:40]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
So he was in bed with Jane in his home in Miami and one of his sons walked in the room and said something has happened. And that's how he found out that it had aired. Now, what's interesting from my standpoint is of course, you know this.
- [27:56]
Aubrey O'Day
That's crazy journalism on your part because normally things are so messy. Everybody knows something. That's wild. How did you do that?
- [28:04]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, can I tell you, this is what was so interesting to me as all these pieces are falling into place and I'm kind of the puzzle is being filled out for the pieces that I did not know. Of course I did my beyond due diligence, of course comments from his team. When you saw our report, it said that we had made numerous attempts, but of course I was not reaching out directly to Sean Combs. Like, that's not what you do. He has representatives that he pays a lot of money to speak for these things.
- [28:44]
Aubrey O'Day
And how do you learn who those representatives are? They don't like I always wonder how do people know who my reps are? Is there like a www.com this is who reps this person. How do you know that?
- [28:52]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
There's a few things. So yes, there is. But that when you are in a scandal, a crisis, you often bring in crisis management. So like there is databases that you can pay for to basically see who rep celebrities like who their agents and publicists like all of the news organizations.
- [29:09]
Aubrey O'Day
Did you have to write kk?
- [29:12]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Not for that, but I have made numerous attempts with her for other things.
- [29:18]
Aubrey O'Day
Where is she hiding? Do we know?
- [29:20]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
We do not know. And I will even in this country. So I had reached out to remember when she released that statement saying that, you know, she's not involved in anything and all that.
- [29:32]
Aubrey O'Day
When did she release that statement? I didn't realize that in March.
- [29:36]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
So two months before the trial, she released a statement that said, you know, all of the wrongdoing that has been alleged aside my former boss, you know, I have nothing to do with EGREGIOUS claims have been made about me, blah, blah, blah.
- [29:47]
Aubrey O'Day
Did she know that they had her phones by that point when she made that statement?
- [29:50]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
She did. So I reached out to offer her an interview because I would like to hear more of her story. And I did make contact with her attorney who said.
- [30:01]
Aubrey O'Day
Who's her attorney?
- [30:02]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
It's not. I don't want to say it on here.
- [30:05]
Aubrey O'Day
Okay. Is it somebody that I would know or is it. Is it a big name?
- [30:08]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Okay. It's not like one of the, like, celebrity, like criminal attorneys, because if it was, I would say it. But they said to me that until the criminal case is resolved and all of the civil cases are resolved, that she can't speak. And throughout the trial, I've reached out more and more and more. A, for an interview, but B, to seek comment. And now they have gone radio flatline.
- [30:31]
Aubrey O'Day
I think there's. I think there's going to be more indictments. I think I'm predicting it now. There's going to be more indictments, and she's going to be hit with a co conspirator.
- [30:42]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Remember that when the first indictment came out and there were numerous superseding indictments, but the prosecutors had said, and I have been reporting at the time, that their investigation was still ongoing.
- [30:54]
Aubrey O'Day
And this whole battle of everyone not understanding if it was just him or an enterprise. I saw an enterprise. I saw other criminals and I saw other crimes. I don't understand why they aren't in this case.
- [31:08]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And what, what do you mean by that? If there's anything that you're comfortable elaborating, like, what do you mean by that?
- [31:13]
Aubrey O'Day
I. I saw a whole bunch of people running things, not just the people that are taking. The people that have taken the stand are very. A very minor part or a different era.
- [31:27]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right.
- [31:28]
Aubrey O'Day
There's a whole lot of people. I didn't see any of them on the stand. And to me, I said to this person, you know, and he would. They were basically saying, like, you know, kind of saying, this is just all girlfriends over here in this trial area. And that's a slippery subject for many reasons, in many ways. And. And that's not just a music industry thing. Every industry's got a sleazy boss. Every industry's got somebody that doesn't know any better and wants to advance. Like, every job has forms of this going on. And I was like, no, we need. I don't. I don't know that we can look at this so wide and so systematically.
- [32:08]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
First of all, make it okay. Like no.
- [32:11]
Aubrey O'Day
And that's what I said. Well, I said, well, if everybody has this and people are just paying more attention because we're in the entertainment industry and people watch us more and this is a huge mega star, then shouldn't we make an example and show everybody else that this is not allowed in the workplace? Like couldn't we be, shouldn't we then be really showing people? Because what are we going to be showing them if we don't? Do you know how many people fly people in sex working jobs across state lines for their satisfaction? Like that's a very scary thing that you're putting out there on the line right now for a whole lot of fucking people. And frankly, we need to nip it in the butt. A lot of people are not safe because a lot of people in these settings clearly, as you are learning, are inebriated. You can't make good calls on other people's lives, let alone emotional souls, spirit, all the other things that we are not even discussing right now. Cassie will spend the rest of her life trying to clear the emotional soul side of the what that of what she had to testify she did. She may be able to vocalize it. 10 something years after cleansing it from your soul is life work. We're not even discussing that prison sentence. Everybody in this industry understands some form of identifying this person as a fucking criminal. Everybody's dis understanding it from different lenses depending on what decade you were in, depending on who's around you, who you knew, what bodyguards and assistants were in place at different times. I didn't know kk, but I sure as fuck new Capricorn. And I knew Fran even better, but she was found dead on her couch after she sued Diddy for millions.
- [34:13]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, so here's what I keep telling everyone because I'm asked about this case everywhere. And even just like my friends and family ask me and I tell them what Diddy has been accused of is this Big, you know, like I'm putting my arms up like.
- [34:28]
Aubrey O'Day
And Elizabeth, by the way, that's not even big compared to what the industry is discussing.
- [34:33]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right?
- [34:34]
Aubrey O'Day
Very minor. That's a. That's that little tiny piece of the pie. That's how crazy it is for me to watch this.
- [34:39]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I'm sure, I'm sure.
- [34:40]
Aubrey O'Day
Go ahead, keep going.
- [34:41]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
So, you know, the accusations against Big all what she denied, by the way. But the accusations against him could like fill up, you know, every room that you're in. Right? But this case is minuscule. It's this big. It's centered around three different women, two former girlfriends. I hate that. There's so many reasons why it's because. Statute of limitations.
- [35:06]
Aubrey O'Day
So it's, it's insane to me, to me, and from my own degrees of my own story, I have things that I still don't have answers to. Right. So I in, in some way, shape or form, even though I report on this trial, even though I'm somebody that everybody talks about in regards to this trial, makes up fake headlines about whatever they're going to do to me, they do. Right. But I'm also a human in this. I have had feelings for everybody across the board. I am somebody who, who had an entire career built by this man that may lose his entire life. Freedom. I don't take that not seriously. I, I, I don't know that I would offer a hand to save him. But I don't have any particular feeling that I want him to go down. I want, I want the prosecutors to prove their case. And I'm a bit underwhelmed in this moment.
- [36:10]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Being in the room is so different, and it's hard to explain.
- [36:14]
Aubrey O'Day
Explain that to me as best you can.
- [36:17]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
But the thing is, is there's a lot of gray area. Nothing is black and white. You know, all the reasons that we just spoke about with Jane for, for particular, you know, you could see that a lot of these jurors are going to not believe some of these women. Right? There's a lot of loopholes here. However, when you have sat in a courtroom for two months and you have heard these patterns of alleged behavior, isn't.
- [36:42]
Aubrey O'Day
It crazy that proving consent takes this much? You can't just be one person that says, hey, I didn't consent to that. Imagine as one woman, you know, that we talk about how victims are so scared to come forward, yet 80 plus have 80 plus against the biggest fucking star there is in the goddamn world.
- [37:01]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Men and women.
- [37:03]
Aubrey O'Day
Men and women. And by the way, I even said this to a man that's very powerful today. I would never in my life sue this man. And I am out here with my voice. I use it all the time. I was fired on national TV because I was using it. I was blacklisted and I still used my mouthpiece. I'm somebody that people consider has balls in this specific setting. Definitely I would never go after him in any type of legal way unless I had video from A to Z. So I could just leave all bystanders and opinions of everything aside and be able to prove it from A to Z. Okay? But there are 80 people who aren't even necessarily seen as the girl with balls like me that have come forward and alleged horrifying things which has happened to no other mega celebrity in my lifetime that I have seen. It can't even be brought in. And yet we're going to come down to a jury of people. We're going to come down to knowing that they're going to go into a room and decide whether they believe exactly in the consent. Because this thing is going to come down to consent. That's all I hear anyone saying. Why did the girls come back and ask for jobs? After that, the consent piece all anyone continue continues to talk about. No one is. Nobody's asking whether the baby oil is real. Nobody's asking if the astro guys real. Nobody's even asking if the stripper heel part is real. Nobody's asking. It's just did they want. Did they all want this or did they not? And in writing, you can see everybody say they don't want it. They feel you, they feel this. And they're. And in writing they can see them saying, I want to be sexy for you tonight, daddy.
- [38:41]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right.
- [38:42]
Aubrey O'Day
You can see both in writing. But what's crazy to me is we are not moving the mark forward for any victim in this world to feel comfortable on their own merit to say, I did not ask for this. I did not want this. This one time I wanted it 20 times. But this one time are these three times I was raped or I was violated or I didn't want this. It doesn't matter if you did it 20 billion times before. If one time you did not want it, that is rape. That is violation.
- [39:23]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And that is what it's so hard for juries to understand.
- [39:27]
Aubrey O'Day
But. But with that being said, that that feeling of like believing someone on their merit. And I said, do you know how difficult it is to go against this human.
- [39:38]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Remember, the justice system, even if it should be and is designed to be, it's not about the truth. It's about what 12 people believe.
- [39:47]
Aubrey O'Day
Correct. It. It's a theater. I literally said on the first day of trial something on Twitter. I had to go back and bookmark it. Like, let's see the theater begin. Like, this is it. This is going to be a master class in theater. But beyond all of this, these charges are so very big. There are so many of them, so many of them that weren't even brought into this case. But this case is the one not to miss on. That's where the feeling of a little. A little dissatisfaction with the prosecution's case. And by the way, I don't even know that they feel satisfied because they had a lot of things blow up on them during jury selection. It's not a slam dunk.
- [40:44]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And part of the reason for that.
- [40:45]
Aubrey O'Day
And it should have been, and this.
- [40:47]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Is what I was going to say as well, there are severe limitations that are put on prosecutors and the defense. So this is the prosecutor's case to prove. There are serious limitations for the scope of what they can do and what they can't do. And the scope of this case is so limited, even though it's allegations spanning 20 years.
- [41:07]
Aubrey O'Day
It's like you watch our president do an amazing speech. They've written their own speech. Both sides have written their own speech and they're trying to fight to get as many words of their speech in before the time runs out.
- [41:17]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
That's exactly right for both sex.
- [41:28]
Aubrey O'Day
What's so sad about all of this is is there were no limitations on any of this behavior when it's tried. There's tons.
- [41:41]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Of course that's how it is.
- [41:43]
Aubrey O'Day
But this has been going on since the 90s. I know people that were swirling and twirling in the freak offs in the 90s. So. So it took this long for us to get here and now we still have the the world centered on Is anyone a hoe? But training doesn't. Isn't this all just industry fodder? Everybody wanted it. Entertainment as usual.
- [42:10]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
We are still.
- [42:11]
Aubrey O'Day
And we've never seen anything like this. The magnitude of what this is. This is a 9.7 earthquake happening in front of us. We've got a few of them, by the way. I'm sure you're real busy over there. We're at war. Ice is down the street and we got Diddy coming through. There are earthquakes shifting, big shifting things occurring. Does the way that this time feels give us a bad outcome because we're normalizing so much chaos that the jury will just do a little bit more of that when they decide on this. Because you know damn well when you go look back at history at let's just bring up a case like O.J. simpson. It's documented on Netflix now by the lawyers themselves of how much tomfoolery they played, how much scripting and narratives and bullshit they came up with and how they truly depended on a sign of the times. Get them through. The sign of the times right now is we are at war in the Middle East. Ice is down the block detaining people that you don't even really dislike or have any issue with. And we are. Everybody's wondering if they're going to have their job in a year. I think because technology is moving so fast, I don't even know if I'm watching a real person when I watch it. People online anymore.
- [43:35]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Look, it is a scary. It is a crazy time. And you're absolutely right that all of these trials, it depends on the world in which we're living so culturally, politically, socially, how things are different. I mean, when I covered the first Weinstein case in 2020, it was a completely different time of the world. But I want to. I want to leave you with something that resonated with me. I recently did an interview with Tarana Burke, who is the founder of the MeToo movement, and her life work has been advocating for survivors of sexual violence. And I was talking to her about this case, about the Diddy case, and she said to me, it is such a win that he is even in a courtroom. And what I'm about to say, I thought was so poignant of her. She said, the criminal justice system has never been set up for victims, and we should not put all of our eggs in that basket, because if you do, you will just be disappointed. I thought that hearing that from her and hearing her perspective, it shouldn't be the perspective.
- [44:39]
Aubrey O'Day
I refuse it. I rebuke it. We did not go through. I. I will just speak for me, as a woman that has been in the music industry for 20 some years, my life's work will not go in vain. We have to do better as a system. We have to hold ourselves accountable and be responsible for our behavior, for the behavior that we witness. Call the cops, tell on people, normalize using the justice system more, normalize believing in it. That way, when you sit on a jury, you will hold yourself to a higher standard, because people that are sitting on there right now are holding a whole lot in their hands. And it's so much bigger than Diddy or any Jane Doe.
- [45:33]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
And I will tell you, from my coverage of trials like these, I have learned, of course, the verdict, it's not just symbolic, but it's quite literally put someone behind bars or not. So it is. I don't want what I'm saying to be taken out of context, but it's not important. Of course the verdict is important, but what I have learned from my coverage is it's not just the verdict. It's also how these trials and the awareness of it and the discussions and the discussion we're having now, how it impacts society and how it impacts culture.
- [46:07]
Aubrey O'Day
The discussion, if he gets off is so damaging. I don't know that I'd want to stay in the fight. Liz. Okay, let me ask you this. How are you going to feel as the journalist that first had their hands on watching him drop kick Cassie, and you knew what the impact it would have that you had in your hand, and you saw it before it was put on cnn.
- [46:38]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I think the work that we have done speaks for itself. And I think, again, verdicts are so important, and verdicts are symbolic of what people think is right or wrong. But for Sean Combs, there's no going back. Domestic violence is absolutely unacceptable. And what we saw in that video was horrific on every which cellular level. And even his defense said that that is their whole defense, is that what he's done is indefensible. However, he's not guilty of these charges because they knew there's no way around it. So there's two ways to think of it. There's a court of law and there's a court of public opinion. And Cassie, back in 2016, when she was violently beaten in that hallway, well, guess what? The people at the hotel didn't do anything. They were paid off. The police did not do anything. So you have these different systems, people that are supposed to help when bad things happen.
- [47:39]
Aubrey O'Day
Yeah, I literally shout hotels out on my Instagram now that weren't involved in any of the transportation. Every time I learned a new hotel's name, I was heartbroken because I will never stay there.
- [47:49]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right. But to me, to answer your question, you have these different systems that are supposed to protect us all in society. If something bad happens, you call the police. They're supposed to help you. Something bad. That's why they're supposed to do something. And what I've learned is the power of journalism and the power of people just using their voice and being truth tellers is so impactful because as you're saying that that tape is the most important piece of evidence. By the way, the defense said that, too. They were working very hard to get it out of the case.
- [48:25]
Aubrey O'Day
Well, guess what?
- [48:26]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
The prosecution wouldn't have that tape if it were not for our teams work at cnn. And that shows to me the power of journalism and again, the power of people using their voice.
- [48:39]
Aubrey O'Day
So that is what I pray to God that the exclamation point doesn't stop at you. But exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point.
- [48:47]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
I will also say the final point I want to make is this case, no matter what happens, has put such A spotlight on domestic violence and violence against women. Which 1 in 4 women in America experience some form of intimate violence, intimate partner violence throughout their life. And I know that from my reporting, and I also know from my reporting that after we broke the Cassie tape and then after Cassie posted about it on her Instagram, numbers were skyrocketing at Rainn, which is the rape hotline, and at the domestic violence hotline. So it shows there is real life impact. And this is not in this case. This is a celebrity issue. It's Sean Combs and Cassie, but it's not a celebrity issue. This is a systemic problem around the world. And this case has really put a spotlight on that. And that's why, regardless of the verdict. And again, I'm not trying to discount the verdict. It's incredibly important for everyone involved in this trial on both sides and for people watching.
- [49:55]
Aubrey O'Day
And 80 plus civil suits that are.
- [49:59]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Well, that's the other thing too is what I will be watching with my reporting is what happens in this verdict will greatly impact all the civil accusers. We will either see suits being pursued or we will see suits being withdrawn.
- [50:11]
Aubrey O'Day
For some reason, I don't know what life looks like at the end of this one, and I should. But somehow this greatly changes so much. Maybe because my whole entire life has been in the music industry. We're either gonna like, allow this stuff or we aren't.
- [50:35]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Right? And that's the truth and not as nothing.
- [50:38]
Aubrey O'Day
I don't see anyone else getting tried that's going to bring this back up in my lifetime. It's like watching a nominee for as a female president go. It's like, we're not gonna probably get another one in my lifetime. Like, this sucks. Maybe, Maybe, you know, it's like, this is a big one. I don't know who's bigger that's coming next. This is pretty big. Everyone should be paying attention. Thank you, Liz.
- [51:07]
Elizabeth Wagmeister
Thank you.
- [51:17]
Aubrey O'Day
This is an I Heart podcast.