“This is How Grooming Works”…. (From the Epstein Survivors’ Therapist)

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present
Episode: “This is How Grooming Works” (From the Epstein Survivors’ Therapist)
Guest: Randy Kogan, Licensed Psychotherapist
Date: September 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes delve into the enduring trauma faced by survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, with a focus on the psychological impact of grooming and ongoing revictimization. Their guest, Randy Kogan—a psychotherapist who has worked with Epstein’s victims for two decades—illuminates the mental and emotional fallout survivors endure, the persistent failures of the justice system, and what real healing might look like amidst sensationalized headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Ongoing Trauma of Epstein Survivors

• Press Conference Context: Recent events prompted many previously anonymous survivors to reveal their identities, risking further trauma and unintended consequences. (Amy, 02:58–03:33)
• Persistent Revictimization: Media coverage and repeated legal setbacks disrupt healing, reopening old wounds repeatedly over the past 18 years. (Randy Kogan, 05:27–06:52)
• Impact of “Sweetheart Deal”: The 2008 legal deal, which labeled girls as “child prostitutes,” was devastating and marked the start of public revictimization. (Randy Kogan, 05:27–06:52)

Randy Kogan’s Background & Involvement

• Entry to the Case: Began working at Palm Beach County Victim Services in 2004, received victim referrals from FBI. Was the primary therapist due to similar patterns of victimization. (Randy Kogan, 07:02–08:15)
• Early Red Flags: Only seven clients initially, but deposition by Epstein’s lawyers and the plea deal signaled unusual scale/complexity. (Randy Kogan, 08:39–09:41)

Understanding Grooming & Mental Manipulation

• Mechanisms of Grooming: Epstein established “deceptive trust,” exploiting victims’ needs and vulnerabilities—promising dreams, help with immigration, or college. (Randy Kogan, 10:30–12:43)
• Victims’ Guilt and Shame: Many believed they were to blame, expecting arrest themselves, because of how manipulation entwined their self-perception with Epstein’s actions. (Randy Kogan, 10:30–12:43)
• Therapeutic Challenges: Major hurdle was convincing clients they were victims, not complicit—a theme still persistent 20 years later. (Amy/Randy Kogan, 12:43–13:50)

Scope and Impact

• Hundreds of Victims: Many remain silent. The legal betrayal pushed women into hiding, which only began to crack open again with renewed FBI interest in 2019. (Randy Kogan, 14:19–16:20)
• Grief and Lethality: The suicide of prominent survivor Virginia Giuffre was a devastating blow, raising existential fears among other survivors about their own futures. (Amy/Randy Kogan, 16:20–19:09)

The Search for Closure, Justice, and Trust

• Justice Vs Closure: Legal outcomes provide distractions, not healing. True closure must come from within, but is undermined by loss of trust in institutions. (Randy Kogan, 24:44–26:44)
• Transparency Demands: Survivors want accountability for enablers (e.g., mansion staff, legal team, Alex Acosta), not just a “list.” The constant “dangling” of files deepens disempowerment. (Randy Kogan, 27:13–29:31)
• Ghislaine Maxwell’s Role: Her sentencing gave some hope, but transfer to a lighter prison and potential pardon discussions revived anger and mistrust. (Randy Kogan, 30:15–31:57)

Political Exploitation & Media Sensationalism

• Political Weaponization: Survivors feel their suffering is used as political fodder. Many were crushed when the President dismissed the case as a “hoax.” (TJ/Randy Kogan, 32:32–34:28)
• Harmful Public Conversation: Media often mischaracterizes victims (“they could have left,” “it was about money”) and trivializes their pain through jokes, rumors, and conspiracy theories. (Amy/Randy Kogan, 44:32–47:52)

Survivor Demands & Appeals

• Accountability & Peace: Survivors want prosecution of enablers, the chance to “heal in peace,” and an end to the cycle of headlines, speculation, and sensationalism. (Randy Kogan, 39:36–41:00)
• Meeting With Trump: Some seek recognition and basic belief from the President, but Kogan fears further re-traumatization due to lack of displayed empathy. (TJ/Randy Kogan, 41:00–42:57)
• Support Structure: Kogan chose not to accompany survivors to DC, remaining available for emotional support during and after the press conference. (Randy Kogan, 43:36–44:32)

What Society and Media Get Wrong

• Misunderstandings About Grooming: Lack of understanding on how “brainwashing” and deceptive trust work leave the public blaming victims unfairly. (Randy Kogan, 45:13–47:52)
• Ripple Effects: Public scrutiny affects every aspect of survivors’ lives, from daily phone use to interactions with culture and media—reminders of Epstein are inescapable.

Final Reflections

• Epstein’s Legacy: Kogan asserts he’s never seen anything with such widespread, ongoing trauma—Epstein was “perhaps the most prolific pedophile” in US history, “sensationalized and celebritized” while survivors remain overlooked. (TJ/Randy Kogan, 47:52–48:44)
• Therapist’s Role: Kogan underscores the critical importance of compassion, constant support, and the humility of the ongoing fight—“Thank you for supporting and having the compassion that they so desperately need.” (Randy Kogan, 49:30–49:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Repeated Revictimization:
  “There hasn’t been a steady stream of that healing process that we would like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited, and groomed as young teens.” — Randy Kogan [06:43]
• On Grooming:
  “Epstein used his caring relationship—with each one of his victims as his weapon.” — Randy Kogan [10:33]
• On Guilt and Shame:
  “Many girls felt that they really didn’t have a choice because they didn’t want to disappoint him…Grooming makes the victim believe that they are part of the abuse themselves.” — Randy Kogan [11:05]
• On Justice:
  “Justice doesn’t come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn’t come from a 20-year-to-life sentence…closure can only come from within.” — Randy Kogan [24:44]
• On Institutional Betrayal:
  “Who can they trust now? Law enforcement, the government, the legal system…each element…let them down.” — Randy Kogan [25:21]
• On Media and Public Perception:
  “Grooming is a very dangerous weapon because there’s no force involved. So people just assume that, well, you can just get out. And it’s a form of brainwashing…they did not know what they were getting into.” — Randy Kogan [45:13]
• On Survivors’ Demands:
  “Hold people accountable who knew about it, who didn’t do something about it…then put it to rest. These women need to heal in peace.” — Randy Kogan [39:50]
• On Trump’s “Hoax” Comments:
  “It is devastating to so many of them that our president is the one calling it a hoax. The president.” — Randy Kogan [33:22]
• On Epstein’s Legacy:
  “Jeffrey Epstein has been sensationalized. Jeffrey Epstein has been celebritized in many ways. And it is just tragic that this is how we treat predators and this is how we treat survivors.” — Randy Kogan [48:19]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:33] The public unmasking of survivors and risks
• [05:27] Ongoing disruption and the “sweetheart deal”
• [07:02] How Randy Kogan began treating Epstein victims
• [10:30] How grooming manipulates trust and self-blame
• [14:19] The scope: hundreds of victims, most still silent
• [16:20] Mental health impact and loss of prominent survivor
• [24:44] Why legal outcomes rarely yield closure
• [27:13] The “client list,” transparency, and feelings of futility
• [29:31] Ghislaine Maxwell’s sentence and feelings of betrayal
• [33:22] Survivors’ reaction to political and public dismissal
• [39:36] Survivors’ current demands for accountability and peace
• [41:00] The risks and hopes of meeting President Trump
• [45:13] What the public and journalists get wrong about grooming/trauma
• [48:19] Epstein’s haunting legacy

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare, unfiltered look at the challenges facing Epstein’s survivors: the deep scars of grooming, the compounding harm of institutional betrayal, endless media scrutiny, and the bitter quest for justice. Randy Kogan’s expertise lays bare how misunderstood, undermined, and relentlessly tested these women are—and calls listeners, journalists, and leaders alike to a higher standard of empathy, accuracy, and action.

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Transcript

[Liz]

This is an I heart podcast. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tied, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Melgar. I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered and her mother found locked in a closet her her hands and feet bound. It didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands tied on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

It was an unimaginable crime.

[Liz]

It's four consecutive live terms for Brian.

[Randy Kogan]

Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students. Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.

[Liz]

Bryan Kohberger has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony.

[Randy Kogan]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Amy]

This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

[Randy Kogan]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that mean for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hunter, host of Hunting for Answers on the Black Effect Podcast Network.

[Randy Kogan]

Join me every weekday as I share.

[Liz]

Bite sized stories of missing and murdered black women and girls in stories like.

[Randy Kogan]

Erica Hunt, a young mother vanished without a trace after a family gathering on 4th of July weekend 2016. No goodbyes, no clues, just gone.

[Liz]

Listen to Hunting for Answers every weekday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.

[Liz]

Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts.

[Randy Kogan]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy]

Hey there folks and welcome to this latest episode of Amy and TJ Presents. Today. It's about the Epstein survivors who robes. Last week, just last week, we saw that press conference, powerful press conference outside the US Capitol with many victims stepping forward, wanting more Epstein files to be released. And it's wild to think that these are victims who suffered, in some cases decades ago, who are still healing after decades, but are still as well, being victimized, they say, by what we're seeing in the press.

[TJ]

That's right. And there's a reason why we're just now seeing their faces and their names. They have been anonymous. They were Jane Doe number one, two, three, whatever. Because of all of the reasons why you tend to protect, obviously a victims of sexual abuse, sexual assault. But also there's just so much fear surrounding this case, so much talk about powerful men and powerful people being able to exact revenge and just honestly, for decades, not being believed, not being heard, not being listened to. So it's a huge, huge deal that these women are finally stepping forward and putting their names and faces out there. And that's scary. And it can have. It can have unintended consequences.

[Amy]

And look, we've talked for you. It's hard to even imagine the trauma, the healing psychologically that is necessary, I guess, to continue on with life. Unfortunately, Virginia Giuffre, who of course we know is a young lady who took her own life just this year, who was a very outspoken Epstein survivor. But we wondered, like, how are they getting help? Who is helping these women sometimes from their teen years, who has helping them and who is continuing to help them along their path? And that is why we have Randy Kogan with us today, a licensed psychotherapist who has worked with a number of these victims for decades now and continues to do so. Randy, did we. We thank you for being here. But do we get that right, that what happens if you have been doing all of this healing for all these many years and even decades, and then boom, all of this press coverage, all of this back and forth is happening. Are you being victimized? Does it really open up a whole new avenue of healing that is necessary?

[Randy Kogan]

Yes, it does. And throughout the years from 2008, from before 2008, healing has been disrupted over and over and over again. You know, first it was reported and Epstein was arrested. Okay. Now we're moving towards justice. There's a chance here that they can feel some sort of justice. Then the sweetheart deal came about, and the legal team, the prosecutor, Alex Acosta, nobody informed the victims of this sweetheart deal. So in 2008, 2009, the survivors that I was treating, I was the individual who had to let them know about the sweetheart deal. And it was quite devastating, because what came out of that sweetheart deal is they were looked at as child prostitutes because he was charged with the solicitation of child prostitution. So the revictimization started right out of the gate when he was initially arrested, and it continued throughout the past 18 years, up and down, on and off. So there hasn't been a steady stream of that healing process that we would like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited, and groomed as young teens.

[TJ]

Randy, can I ask you how you first got involved with some of these epstein victims? How were you first introduced, and how did you begin to work with them?

[Randy Kogan]

I. Starting in 2004, I was working at palm beach county victim services. And at victim services, we worked in the courthouse, and we worked with victims of violent crimes in palm beach county. So we worked very closely with law enforcement. We worked very closely with the legal system as well as the FBI. When epstein was initially arrested and the FBI began the investigation, the victim specialists through the FBI referred the victims to victim services. At that time, the team at victim services felt that it would be in all of their best interests if I was the main therapist who worked with the victims, because everybody's story was similar. The trauma. Trauma. The victimization was similar. I can't say the trauma was, but the victimization was similar. So that's how I started getting involved and treating the survivors. And then as more individuals came about, when attorneys started getting involved and started picking up clients, they, too, began referring their victims to me as well.

[Amy]

How many, initially, I want to ask, were you working with, and when did you know this was? I guess you probably couldn't imagine it was going to become what it now has become. How big of a story? But when did you first start to start getting a little indication of this thing was going to be much bigger than maybe a case you'd ever worked on before?

[Randy Kogan]

Well, at the time, I probably, if I'm not mistaken, I was treating about seven victims at the time. Seven girls, seven teenagers. They were teenagers at the time. I thought it was strange that I was deposed pretty quickly by Jeffrey's attorneys. I thought that was a red flag, that they were deposing me so early as well, that I just started seeing them When I heard about the sweetheart deal and that myself, brad edwards, and other attorneys had to inform their clients. That was a red flag for me. When I saw the charge of prostitution, I knew that this is a whole different ball game now, because they just kept revictimizing and accusing and accusing. And the only individual who was seeking support at that time was Epstein. So it was a huge red flag for me right at the beginning when they made the sweetheart deal.

[TJ]

You know, Randy, it's. It's so. It's mind blowing to know that here in 2025, this is the story that it is. And these women now who were girls then, are just now feeling strong enough and safe enough perhaps even to come forward and to hear them have to explain the guilt and the shame. We've heard this in other cases, but this one is significant because people keep asking, well, why would you keep going back? Why would you fly on a private plane? Why would you go to the island with him? Why would you not have run for the hills or run to a police station? Once that massage became more than a massage, what do you say to those people who have those types of questions about these young girls?

[Randy Kogan]

Well, the first thing they need to understand is what it means to be groomed by an individual. Okay. Jeffrey Epstein used his caring relationship, and of course I use that term loosely, caring relationship with each one of his victims as his weapon. So right from the start, he got to know each of them. He got to know their families, he got to know about their dreams, their goals. And he used that to manipulate them, to exploit them the way that he see he saw fit. And that made him feel good. So once you develop that relationship, there's something that's called deceptive trust development. And that was something that Epstein banked on, was that deceptive trust that he built in each of these girls. Now, remember, we're talking about the ages of 3, 13 to 16. So what do we expect from a 13 year old girl, a 16 year old girl? Should we expect them to understand when they're being groomed and manipulated? Many girls felt that they really didn't have a choice because they didn't want to disappoint him. He was such a nice, caring man. He assured some of them that he would help families with immigration, would help dreams come true, help them become models. He wrote reference letters to colleges for some of these girls. They didn't want to hurt him, they didn't want to betray him because they had this deceptive relationship that Jeffrey built with each of them. So it's not easy. Along the lines with that grooming is a form of mental abuse. Grooming makes the victim believe that they are part of the abuse themselves. And that's where that guilt and shame comes from. What was my role? Am I going to get in trouble. Too many victims in 2008 were waiting to get arrested because they believed that they were just as much to blame as Jeffrey because of that manipulation that I'm speaking of.

[Amy]

Randy, was that job one for you? Almost. When these victims first came in, you, had to almost break down and convince them that they were not the problem, that they had to be convinced to. I think I'm using the word convinced, but you explain it. It make it sound almost. They had to be convinced that they were actually victims. Was that a common theme in these young women when you first started talking to them? Is that was like, that was the first work you had to do.

[Randy Kogan]

That is the theme that has been ongoing for the past 20 years because they still second guess at times. There are some girls that want to speak but are afraid to speak. Even when. When epstein d, There were these conflictual feelings, because what about all the times that he was good to them? What about all the times that when some of them needed money, they were in a pinch, Jeffrey would show up for them. So there's a lot of inner conflict that goes on with grooming and manipulation and mental abuse. So, yes, that is an ongoing feat that we continue to work on.

[TJ]

Randy, you said you started out with around seven young women who you were counseling at the beginning of this in 2000, early 2000s. I don't even personally have an idea of the scope of the number of women and young women we're talking about. Has that number grown in terms of your circle of clients? And do you even have a concept of how many young women we're talking about who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein?

[Randy Kogan]

We're talking hundreds, hundreds of women. So many still will not speak about it. So many are still suppressing between 2008 and 2019, after that, that deal came out, Obviously, the victims were just distraught. They felt betrayed. They felt devalued. They felt like they didn't belong. They felt like the predators were more important than the victims. So a number of them hid for many years. They wanted to put everything behind them. They wanted to completely, just completely wipe this from their memory and from their experiences. Well, in the psychological world, we know that when we suppress something, it stays inside. It doesn't just go away. Right. So that will build. In 2019, when the FBI started contacting the survivors, Going to their homes, going to their work, this was like, okay, there's nowhere for me to escape anymore. So everything that they were attempting to suppress, everything came back. Not only the trauma and the experiences with Jeffrey, but also the guilt and shame that they've been suppressing as well. So it was starting back again. A number of girls that I saw in 2008 were able to find me again in 2019. So I was able to continue or go back to treating them again. And I'm still doing so. But, yes, a large number of survivors came wanting treatment and wanting to get help, wanting to understand what happened over these past, you know, so many years. Some girls didn't even know that he was released after the sweetheart deal. When they were approached in 2019, they were shocked to hear that he was out of prison the entire time. So that skyrocketed their fear.

[TJ]

Yeah, I mean, in 2015, I spoke with then Virginia Roberts, Virginia Giuffre, and she was in hiding. She went to Australia. She talked about this harrowing decision with her then husband to get out and to hide in Australia as far away as she could, or she thought, from Jeffrey Epstein. And to see how her life ended up just a few months ago is beyond heartbreaking. I am curious just in terms of the mental health struggles that these young women are facing. People kind of say, oh, you know, they might poo, poo. You see what happened to Virginia. And I know this is what you're fighting for and fighting against, certainly to not have that be the fate of so many of these other young girls. But how serious is their mental health at this point? How serious are their conditions? And are you concerned that, I mean, it rises to that level where young women and now grown women are, they don't want to live with what they've experienced.

[Randy Kogan]

Virginia Giuffre's death hit many survivors in a way that they did not expect. It was devastating, it was tragic to them. And many questions from them were, is this my path? Is this something? Do I need to start looking over my shoulder? Is this what's going to happen? And also on the other side of it, we need to continue Virginia's legacy. Virginia spoke up for so many of the survivors when nobody else had a voice. And many girls don't want that legacy to end with Virginia. They want her voice to continue. So there's a lot of inner conflict going on with many. They want to use their voice. They're angry. They're angry about what's going on right now. They feel again as if the government is letting them down. But on the other side of that, too, what happens if I do speak up? What are the consequences? And throughout the years, some who have spoken over the past years have. The public has not been very Nice. And that's been a trauma in and of it themselves not believing them. They knew what they were doing. They just were doing it for the money. Oh, did the money run out? Is that why they want to talk now? People don't understand what process they went through and that they're still going through. I've been doing this for 40 years. I have never seen a case go on as long as this.

[Liz]

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[Randy Kogan]

It was an unimaginable crime.

[Liz]

It's four consecutive live terms for Brian.

[Randy Kogan]

Kohberger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.

[Amy]

The defense they're on a sinking ship.

[Randy Kogan]

It was clear at that point he.

[Amy]

Was out of options.

[Randy Kogan]

Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.

[Liz]

Bryan Kohberger appearing set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.

[Randy Kogan]

No trial, no testimony.

[Liz]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal counts, one of burglary and then four counts of murder. In this final season, we return returned.

[Randy Kogan]

To Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers. Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cars.

[Liz]

How on earth could you make a deal?

[TJ]

What message does that send?

[Randy Kogan]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz]

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband comes back outside and he's, he's shaking and he just looks like he's seen a ghost and he's just in shock. And he said, your, your dad's been killed. This is hands tied. A true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Milgar, Liz's mom, had just been found shut in a closet, her hands and feet tied up, shouting for help. I was just completely in shock. Her dad had been stabbed to death. It didn't feel real at all. For more than a decade, Liz has been trying to figure out what happened. There's a lot of guilt, I think, pushing me, and I just. I want answers. Listen to Hands tied on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts for my heart podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the turning River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.

[Liz]

Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body. Parts that looked exactly like my own.

[Randy Kogan]

I wanted to throw up.

[Liz]

I wanted to scream.

[Randy Kogan]

It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about a technology that's moving fast than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy.

[Liz]

And I'm Olivia Carvell.

[Randy Kogan]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Tape podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Amy]

Where does the closure in those cases? Does it come only after justice, through our justice system? Or what? Or is it time? What have you found in your 40 years is the thing, and I'm sure it can be different for everybody, that eventually or certainly is necessary to be able to turn that corner, to have to be on the right path to healing.

[Randy Kogan]

Well, it's hard. In any cases that I have worked with that have gone to trial, which have been hundreds of them, justice doesn't come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn't come from a 20 year to life sentence. Okay? Because once that, once the sentence, once they've given the sentence, once they've gone to prison, what do the victims have left now to deal with? Right. They have the trauma left to deal with. Because before, when you're going through court, when you're, you know, when you're meeting with your attorneys, when you're going through depositions and whatnot, that's a good distraction. You don't feel like it's a good distraction, but it's a distraction. That's your control. You have some element of control over your trauma. By fighting these cases, whether it be in court, whether it be in public, however, closure can only come from within. And the problem with this case is, number one, I don't know if they believe in justice at this point. Right. I was asked in an interview last week about hope and do they have hope that if these records are released that this will finally be it? And what I explained is they have been holding on to hope since the beginning, since they stopped going to Jeffrey. Okay? And they will never give up hope. However, the one thing that has been lost is trust. Who can they trust now? Law enforcement, the government, the legal system, who do they trust? Because each element, who. Who is supposed to be there for them, who is supposed to advocate for them, let them down. So while there's hope, they're still clinging on to who do I trust, who do I talk to? Who's going to help me heal and go through this journey?

[TJ]

Randy, I'm curious. We keep hearing about more records being released, more documents being released, whether or not there's a list. And it's exhausting because it's unclear. I don't even know what's left out there to be released, what it is that may be a record of something that could be a smoking gun. Have your clients explain to you about what that is that still needs to get out, that hasn't been let out yet.

[Randy Kogan]

They want transparency as to what happened since what happened in 2008 and why wasn't anybody held accountable then. That's the transparency that they want. A list. Okay, what's a list? You know, they want to know the people who want to be held accountable. Yes, but also it's coming at a cost at this point. You know, they're Dangling these files. Yes, we're going to release the files. Well, we can't release the files. Well, you know, it's been an ongoing battle of is it going to happen or not. So I feel like this is just another way to make the survivors wait and have no control over the next step of this process. Because are they talking about it as, okay, this is going to happen? This is what I want? Is it because it's a distraction for other people they don't know anymore?

[Amy]

You've mentioned in everybody List, List Epstein, client list, client list. It was a big focus last week as well. At least it made a lot of headlines when several of the survivors said, we are going to compile our own list confidentially. Now, on that matter, I'm asking you and all the work you have done, have they certainly shared names with you that most of us in the public would certainly recognize if we heard them? As far as other people out there.

[Randy Kogan]

Who have victimized them, the individuals, the survivors that I have worked with from 2007 up until the present time have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein. The accountability that they want are from the adults that were in his mansion, his accountant, you know, the people who were helping this whole process who knew and didn't do anything about it, the legal team from 2008, those are the people that they want to see accountability because they're the ones who were watching these young girls get abused day after day, over and over and over again. So that's the transparency they're looking for.

[TJ]

That makes a lot of sense. And in terms of the people who knew what was going on, and the other person who many victims say also personally physically abused them, was Ghislaine Maxwell. And to have what's been happening in the news and certainly with her being moved to this gentler, Kindler, kinder prison camp in Texas without ever being told, none of these victims were even given a say or a heads up about what was happening. Can you talk a little bit about how this, this back and forth and the possibility that Ghislaine Maxwell could even be pardoned by Trump, what that has been like, what your clients have talked to you about, how that has impacted their mental health and what they want to see happen with her specifically, this.

[Randy Kogan]

Has greatly impacted their mental health. When Ghislaine was sentenced to 20 years, they felt that, okay, we have some element of justice here, even if it's a little bit. It was what Ghislaine represented. Jeffrey did not. He took his life. He took the easy way out. So all they had left was Ghislaine. And when they started talking about more interviews with Ghislaine, when they moved her, anger, frustration, betrayal. Again, we talk about the hope. That was hope. And now you can see how it's starting to slip through their fingers yet again. For what reason? Ghislaine is a liar. Ghislaine was charged with perjury. Why are we going to believe anything that this woman said? And if she had all of this information that they think she does, I would assume she would have brought that up during her trial. Why would she hold on to it until now? That doesn't make sense. So this is another tear injustice when it comes to how the survivors feel.

[Amy]

Well, Randy, how can, how can there be any. Like you said, they don't trust the process. There is no hope. What possibly could the government do or anybody say? Even if they say, hey, here are the keys to the file room, knock yourselves out. Even then there'll be an assumption that, well, they probably remove some stuff before they let us in. Like, can there anything? Can anything. What are they asking for now that could possibly make them feel like it's transparent?

[Randy Kogan]

Alex Acosta being held accountable is probably one of the biggest hopes right now. And keep putting Ghislaine where she belongs, in a maximum security prison. We're talking about a sexual predator. The only two sexual predators I know that have had an easy experience in the legal system, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. So it's been really hard to come up with something to hold on to right now. Besides, you know, it's a waiting game.

[TJ]

Randy, as much as your clients, and I'm sure you too, given your intense. Just personal. It has to be personal relationship with, with these young women and seeing what they've been through. Can you even describe what it feels like to have this be so politicized? You know, it seems as though I can only imagine. It doesn't feel like it's for the victims. It's about the victim. It truly is about making a political name for yourself, about saving some sort of political face in, in, in a, in a mob that wants answers. It's almost as if they're using this for political gain or at least deflecting so that they aren't politically injured in any way. But it is not about the victims. It hasn't seemed like it. It's been at all from the beginning.

[Randy Kogan]

That's correct. That's correct. And it is devastating to so many of them that our president is the one calling it a hoax. The president. You know, there were planes that were flying over the girls when they were speaking at the, at the rally, in the press conference. That was another hit for them. You know, they're devastated to see that here they are going to Washington and taking this risk to speak out and their actors in a hoax. So that was just, it was very hurtful. And especially individuals who had voted for the president because they thought that he would release these files and it would be done. And was that a form of grooming? You know, one questions if that was to get voters? I don't know. But it's starting to feel that way from them right now.

[Liz]

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[Randy Kogan]

It was an unimaginable crime.

[Liz]

It's four consecutive live terms for Brian.

[Randy Kogan]

Coburger, who killed the four University of Idaho students.

[Amy]

The defense on a sinking ship.

[Randy Kogan]

It was clear at that point he.

[Amy]

Was out of options.

[Randy Kogan]

Nearly 30 months of silence until bombshell development.

[Liz]

Brian Kohberger appearing set to accept a plea deal just five weeks before his quadruple murder trial was set to start.

[Randy Kogan]

No trial, no testimony.

[Liz]

He has pleaded guilty to five criminal counts, one of burglary and then four counts of murder.

[Randy Kogan]

In the in this final season, we return to Moscow with interviews from those still searching for answers. Why did the prosecution take this? They were holding all the cards.

[Liz]

How on earth could you make a deal?

[TJ]

What message does that send?

[Randy Kogan]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Liz]

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband comes back outside and he's shaking and he just Looks like he's seen a ghost and he's just in shock. And he said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tied, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Melgar. Liz's mom had just been found shut in a closet, her hands and feet tied up, shouting for help. I was just completely in shock. Her dad had been stabbed to death. It didn't feel real at all. For more than a decade, Liz has been trying to figure out what happened. There's a lot of guilt, I think, pushing me, and I just. I want answers. Listen to Hands tide on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For my heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is the Turning River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that mean. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

In 2020, a group of young women in a tidy suburb of New York City found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.

[Liz]

Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts on my body parts that looked exactly like my own.

[Randy Kogan]

I wanted to throw up.

[Liz]

I wanted to scream.

[Randy Kogan]

It happened in Levittown, New York. But reporting the series took us through the darkest corners of the Internet and to the front lines of a global battle against deepfake pornography. This should be illegal, but what is this? This is a story about a technology that's moving fast than the law and about vigilantes trying to stem the tide. I'm Margie Murphy.

[Liz]

And I'm Olivia Carvell.

[Randy Kogan]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Amy]

If there were. We kind of been hitting on this, you've hinted. But if there were a list of demands right now that the victims you've worked with, or just generally speaking of the president, of the government. What. What would those demands right now look like?

[Randy Kogan]

Hold people accountable who knew about it, who didn't do something about it, or who fostered it. That is what's important right now. And then put it to rest. These women need to heal in peace. And it's constantly disrupted, you know, and. And some women came forward to speak for the first time because that's how angry they are. That's how angry they are. How many conspiracy theories are going on out there about Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, how many AI stories, how many lies, you know? And they're watching it, and it's like, these are our lives. Like, this is my life. And here you are making up all of these stories about my life. So some got to the point where enough is enough, but this is how. This is how. This is what it took. Instead of part of their therapeutic healing process that had to be. We need to do it now because they're not telling the truth. I don't think that's very fair to survivors.

[TJ]

No. And some of the survivors are actually asking for a meeting with President Trump. Are some of your clients a part of that group? And what do they want to hear from him, and what are they hoping to gain from him, given all of the. I don't know how they feel about the headlines, and we've known this for a long time, the connections between Trump and Epstein, and of course, they had a falling out at a certain point, but even some of the pictures, some of the comments he's made about Virginia, just give me a sense of where they stand on that meeting and what they're hoping to achieve.

[Randy Kogan]

I mean, their goal is to have Trump understand that what happened to them is real. I mean, let's start with the basics here. You know, first belief, because there seems to be disbelief, and it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that the leader of this country is focused more on protecting the individuals in his party rather than all of these women that continue to suffer. Some have never uttered the words of their story up until today. Still, there are. There are women coming out each and every day now, reaching out to me after all of this is going on, wanting to support their other survivors. They call themselves their soul sisters. They want to be there and support their soul sisters because they feel that the people who should be supporting them aren't. So it's a scary idea of having that meeting as a therapist, seeing what they're going through. I would be a little nervous with that meeting because of the lack of compassion and empathy that they have been welcomed, especially in Washington.

[Amy]

Well, you said nervous. It almost sounds like someone who is treated these victims. You almost sound like you would lean against them sitting in a room and talking to President Trump.

[Randy Kogan]

I would be concerned. I would. I would absolutely be concerned about it. I would make sure I would be somewhere close by. I would be because unfortunately, I don't trust. I don't trust that, that there's going to be that compassion because where has it been?

[TJ]

And Randy, it's interesting. We talked a little bit before we came on the podcast about where you were last week when so many of those victims did decide to put their names and faces and tell part of their story to the world. You said you stayed back in Florida because why?

[Randy Kogan]

I stayed back in Florida because I wanted them to have a home base with me. What I mean by that is they can reach out to me at any time. So I was in contact with many of the survivors, survivors throughout the past days because it was extremely overwhelming. It was mentally exhausting. So I made sure that I was here for them as that support, as that anchor while working with the other survivors who were having a hard time with the headlines after they spoke, the comments. So there was so much going on with the victims that didn't speak and the ones that did. So I wanted to make sure that I was there for each of them and all of them at that time. And I felt that being in Washington, I would be pulled in too many directions and that wouldn't be a good thing for them at the time.

[Amy]

Randy, can you tell us one as journalists, can you tell all of us as citizens what we are getting wrong? What would you absolutely like us to be doing better in how we're having conversations publicly about Epstein, about the victims, to be more mindful of those survivors and what they're going through. I know we cover it and sometimes we cover it, then we get caught up in a headline and you don't remember the humanity and that there's a victim in the middle of it. But I'm just curious to you seeing coverage and whether it's social media and whether it's cnn, what do you see that we continue to get wrong in our conversation about sexual abuse victims, in.

[Randy Kogan]

Particular this Epstein case, People think that when and we'll speak with young girls, when young girls are groomed and sexually exploited, that they can come and go, that they knew what they were doing, they knew how to get out of it. And that is not the way it works. Grooming is a. Is a very dangerous weapon because there's no force involved. So because there are no force and people don't understand what grooming is, they just assume that, well, you can just get out. And it's a form of brainwashing, right? So how are young girls supposed to know that Jeffrey was brainwashing them, Manipulating them to get his needs met rather than, well, he was building this relationship because he cared. So it really starts there. They did not know what they were getting into. And just because they went back does not mean they were looked to be abused. That it was all about the money, it was about the weapon, which was his relationship with each girl. That's the first thing. The second thing, these are human beings that have been going through this from the ages of 13 through their late 30s. Believe them, this happened. Everything that you hear about what Epstein did and more is true. And it is not easy for them to open social media. I mean, you know, in this day and age, what. Our phones are our lives, right? We don't just turn on the TV anymore. We wake up to our phone, we go to sleep to our phone. We go to the bathroom with our phone. We drive, God forbid we drive with our phones. I mean, our phones are constant. We like to go to comedy shows, don't we? We like to go to concerts. Everywhere that they go, everywhere that they look, they are reminded of Jeffrey Epstein. Saturday night live skits, stand up comedians, different TV shows, on top of the media, making up stories, saying horrible things about them, judging them, judging how they heal, judging what they look like, judging that they received, you know, settlements. Settlements did not heal any wounds. Let's be clear. Settlements helped them get the treatment that they so desperately need and deserve. Wow.

[TJ]

It's been said. And I'm just curious with your perspective. You said you've been doing this for 40 years. I can't imagine when you heard one story after another and they each sounded so similar and yet sadly, so effective and so powerful. Would you say that Jeffrey Epstein was perhaps the most prolific pedophile in this country's history? I mean, have you ever seen anything like this?

[Randy Kogan]

Not like this, no. And not with such ongoing exposure, even after death. Jeffrey Epstein has been sensationalized. Jeffrey Epstein has been celebritized in many ways. And it is just tragic that this is how we treat predators and this is how we treat survivors. It's tragic.

[TJ]

Well, Randy, I'm sure you hopefully just feel the impact you're having on These women and these young women who are counting on you to get through this and this will be with them forever. But thank goodness you're in their lives and we certainly appreciate you giving us some perspective as to what they're going through. And the tragedy isn't. It's so deeply personal for each one of these girls. It isn't just a headline, and we know that intellectually. But to hear you actually talk about what these girls and now women are living with and living through with all of these continuing headlines, we just appreciate your insight and your perspective and the work that you do each and every day. That can't be easy to not take that home with you.

[Randy Kogan]

Thank you so much. It's so important that we have these conversations. So important. Thank you. Thank you for supporting and having the compassion that they so desperately need.

[TJ]

Well, thank you, Randy. We hope you have a wonderful day and we appreciate your time as always. We hope you'll check back in with us and we hope there'll be better news perhaps in the weeks and maybe even years to come.

[Randy Kogan]

That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much.

[Liz]

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tied, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Melgar. I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered and her mother found locked in a closet. Closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands tied on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

It was an unimaginable crime.

[Liz]

It's four consecutive live terms for Bryan.

[Randy Kogan]

Coburger, who killed the four University of Idaho students. Nearly 30 months of silence until Bombshell.

[Liz]

Development Brian Coburger has agreed to plead guilty. No trial, no testimony.

[Randy Kogan]

The defense are on a sinking ship.

[Amy]

This isn't the justice you wanted, but this is justice.

[Randy Kogan]

Listen to season three of the Idaho Massacre on the iHeartRadio app as Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz]

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Hunter, host of Hunting for Answers on the Black Effect Podcast Network.

[Randy Kogan]

Join me every weekday as I share.

[Liz]

Bite sized stories of missing and murdered.

[Randy Kogan]

Black women and girls in America. Stories like Erica Hunt, a young mother.

[Liz]

Vanished without a trace after a family.

[Randy Kogan]

Gathering on 4th of July weekend 2016. No goodbyes, no clues, just gone.

[Liz]

Listen to Hunting for Answers every weekday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Randy Kogan]

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare.

[Liz]

Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts.

[Randy Kogan]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liz]

This is an iHeart podcast.