We Read the Ghislaine Maxwell Transcripts So You Don’t Have To!

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present

Episode: We Read the Ghislaine Maxwell Transcripts So You Don’t Have To!
Date: August 25, 2025
Hosts: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this episode, Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes tackle the highly anticipated release of the Ghislaine Maxwell interview transcripts, which took place while Maxwell was in prison. The hosts sift through the first of two interviews conducted by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, aiming to spare listeners the arduous task of reading the dense and controversial transcript themselves. Rather than earth-shattering revelations, the hosts find a study in “revisionist history” and a parade of self-serving denial from Maxwell, alongside moments that highlight the interview's odd tone and the deep frustration this has caused for survivors and the public.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reading the Transcripts: Expectation vs. Reality

• No “bombshells”: Despite public anticipation, Amy and T.J. found the transcript lacked new, explosive details (02:46).
  • TJ: “People keep waiting for Bombshell. Bombshell. Bombshell...no bombshell information that people are waiting on.”
• Maxwell’s Narrative Reads Like Fiction: Amy notes how Maxwell’s account directly contradicts victim testimonies and court documents, making everyone (including herself) “look really rosy” except for the actual victims and Epstein himself.
  • Amy: “It read like a fiction...she was taking some creative licenses. That goes and flies directly in the face of what we’ve heard from victims…” (03:36)
• Revisionist Tone: Maxwell attempts to either exonerate or praise almost everyone mentioned, including herself, Trump, and Clinton, while deflecting or minimizing criminal behavior.

2. The Interview Dynamics and Legal Context

• Polite, Non-Adversarial Tone: The hosts are struck by how genial and non-confrontational Todd Blanche is with Maxwell.
  • Amy: “There seemed nothing where there was no hard-hitting follow up. It was almost conciliatory… almost as if Todd Blanche was excited to be there in her presence.” (06:15)
• Immunity Agreement: The interview was conducted under a limited immunity agreement, meaning Maxwell had limited legal exposure, and nothing was to be used against her.
  • TJ: “He put this on the record at the beginning…the most important part of this agreement is…we’re really just meeting...I’m not promising to do anything.” (07:53)
• Curious Timing: Amy repeatedly notes it’s “interesting” Maxwell was moved to a better prison right after giving this interview, suggesting at least a suspicious coincidence (05:50, 08:16).

3. Key Subjects Addressed in the Interview

a. Donald Trump

• Maxwell Praises Trump Unreservedly: She insists Trump did nothing wrong and calls him “the consummate gentleman” (10:28).
  • Amy (mocking): “She not only did she not say a bad Word about him, she praised, went above and beyond...” (10:30)
• Possible Motive for Praise: TJ points out it would be in Maxwell’s interest to curry favor with Trump, one of the few people who might theoretically pardon her (10:36).
  • Amy: “She only has...nothing to lose and everything to gain.” (11:28)

b. Bill Clinton & Prince Andrew

• Minimizing and Deflection: Maxwell claims to not recall Clinton ever receiving a massage, couches answers with phrases like “I believe”, and says she was friends with the Clintons, not Epstein (32:19–33:59).
  • Amy: “Her denial of all of this isn’t even resolute…” (32:19)
• Prince Andrew Allegations: Maxwell calls the infamous photo with Virginia Roberts (Giuffre) a fake, directly opposing victim and media accounts, while Amy and TJ point out Andrew paid a multi-million dollar civil settlement to Giuffre (20:36–21:26).

c. The “Black Book”/Client List

• Denial of List’s Existence: Maxwell claims there was never a real “client list” and spins a convoluted tale as to how the story originated, calling the whole thing legend (28:05–29:17).
  • Amy (cautious): “It’s hard to know what’s true and what’s untrue when you’re talking to somebody who is a convicted perjurer…” (29:17)

d. Maxwell’s Version of Her Role

• Massages Were Innocent: Maxwell says massages arranged for Epstein were legitimate, “above board”, and never involved anything illicit.
• Denies Grooming or Trafficking: Insists she never recruited underage girls for Epstein, contradicting her conviction and testimony from multiple victims.
  • Amy: “What she’s saying is completely the opposite of what the courts and the victims said.” (27:16)
• Invalidating Survivor Accounts: Maxwell says, “I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy...I don’t think if you’re being raped...you would return.”
  • Amy (angered): “That is such a slap in the face to these women who have spoken out.” (29:44–30:34)
  • TJ: “You’re essentially saying, well, they kept coming back and they didn’t look unhappy.” (30:34)

e. Survivors and the Impact of Revisionism

• Virginia Giuffre’s Memoir: Amy details Giuffre’s intent to share her story posthumously, and reads a statement from her family condemning the platform given to Maxwell as an “attempt to rewrite history” (13:10–15:01).
  • Family statement: “This travesty of justice entirely invalidates the experiences of the many brave survivors who put their safety, security and lives on the line to ensure her conviction, including our sister.”
• Frustration Over Misinformation: The hosts express anger that the “voice of record” is now coming from the “one woman left who has repeatedly lied and who has an incentive to do so” (12:29).
  • Amy: “Misinformation has now been disseminated. And that’s unfortunate.” (12:14)

4. Other Noteworthy Details

• Famous Names Mentioned: Maxwell ticks off names of well-known finance, political, and academic figures from Epstein’s circles but frames them only as legitimate business acquaintances or non-incriminating social connections (24:22–25:33).
• Deflecting on Details: Maxwell often resorts to memory lapses, hedged statements, and odd specifics, e.g., Epstein’s supposed heart condition making certain crimes impossible (25:53).
• Host Perspective on the Transcript: Amy and TJ reiterate that if the transcript is read as “fiction,” it’s less harmful, but the public and victims are still wounded by the continued gaslighting (34:16–34:40).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It read like a fiction...she was taking some creative licenses. That goes and flies directly in the face of what we’ve heard from victims...her version of events certainly makes a lot of folks look really rosy, including herself.”
  — Amy (03:36)
• “There was nothing adversarial about this interview...It was almost as if Todd Blanche was excited to be there in her presence.”
  — Amy (06:15)
• “She not only did she not say a bad Word about him, she praised, went above and beyond talking about him.”
  — Amy on Maxwell’s praise for Trump (10:30)
• “The problem is if President Trump directed his Deputy Attorney General to sit down and talk to Ghislaine Maxwell in an effort of transparency, then release those transcripts. And in all of that, we've got Ghislaine talking about how President Trump did nothing wrong, he's always been a gentleman, how much she likes him...how can you trust anyone in that position, period, who also has perjured herself multiple times?”
  — Amy (10:47)
• “Misinformation has now been disseminated. And that's unfortunate.”
  — Amy (12:14)
• “This travesty of justice entirely invalidates the experiences of the many brave survivors who put their safety, security and lives on the line to ensure her conviction, including our sister.”
  — Amy, quoting Giuffre family statement (14:35)
• “She even said...the picture that we've all seen of Virginia Roberts at 17 years old next to Prince Andrew...she claims that that picture is, is a fake.”
  — Amy (20:36)
• “According to her, nothing ever happened with anybody, right? Nothing.” — TJ (20:18)
• “What she's saying is completely the opposite of what the courts and the victims said.”
  — Amy (27:16)
• “I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever...I don't think if you're being raped as now he's like this prolific, I just can't imagine you would return.”
  — Maxwell, quoted by Amy (29:44)
• “That is such a slap in the face to these women who have spoken out.”
  — Amy (30:34)
• “It wasn't a hard read at all...But again, as long as you look at it as fiction, I guess it doesn't do the harm that it could. But it doesn't take away the sting that her words must have and certainly have had on the victims and their families.”
  — Amy (34:16)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:46 – Setting expectations: No dramatic bombshells in the interview
• 03:36 – Maxwell’s “fictional” account and creative rewriting of history
• 05:50/08:16 – Amy notes the “coincidence” of Maxwell’s transfer to a better prison post-interview
• 06:15 – Discussion of the interview's odd, congenial tone
• 07:53/08:24 – Details of Maxwell’s limited immunity agreement in the interview
• 10:03 – Maxwell gushes over Trump and the motives behind her praise
• 13:10–15:01 – Family statement from Giuffre’s survivors, and response to Maxwell’s platform
• 20:36–21:26 – Maxwell’s denial of the authenticity of the Prince Andrew photo and context around the civil settlement
• 24:22–25:33 – List of famous names (politicians, academics, etc.) Maxwell mentions regarding Epstein’s circle
• 27:16–28:05 – Maxwell’s explanation for arranging massages and denial of grooming
• 28:05–29:17 – Discussion of the “client list” myth and Maxwell’s denial
• 29:44–31:01 – Maxwell’s invalidating comments on survivor behavior, leading to passionate host response
• 32:19–33:59 – Clinton connections, massages, and Maxwell’s proximity to the Clinton family
• 34:16–34:40 – Host wrap-up: The pain caused by Maxwell getting the last word

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Tone and Closing

The episode is both sardonic and serious, blending frustration, journalistic skepticism, and empathy for victims. Amy and TJ emphasize that, beyond legal maneuvering and PR, the enduring harm comes from Maxwell's public denial and rewriting of fact—which continues to retraumatize survivors.

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Summary

Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes dissect the Ghislaine Maxwell transcript and expose a familiar pattern: denial, self-exoneration, and the refusal to incriminate powerful connections. The hosts stress how the softness of the official interview, Maxwell’s paradoxical narrative, and the legal context leave survivors and the public without closure or truth. The episode underlines the limits of official accountability and highlights the lasting impacts of letting convicted perpetrators control the narrative.

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Transcript

[Amy]

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No purchase necessary. Legends International Void where prohibited by law 18 and over. Terms and conditions apply. Hey there folks. It is Monday, August 25, and Robach and I were planning do a dramatic reading of the Ghislaine Maxwell transcript of her interview. But it turns out wasn't a whole lot of dramatic anything in there. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ and Rose. People keep waiting for Bombshell. Bombshell. Bombshell. Something right to be dropped. Look, there was some. It was some fascinating reading, but once again, there's no bombshell information that people are waiting on.

[Amy]

Yeah, we actually spent the weekend reading through the transcript so you don't have to.

[TJ]

That sounds terrible. This is what we do with our weekends.

[Amy]

But actually that is what we did for a large part of our weekend because look, and it wasn't. I actually was kind of dreading it a little bit. And then you had a bit of a head start on me and you said to me, babe, if I were actually on vacation or on the beach, I would keep reading this. Not. And because almost it was fiction, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it read like a fiction. No, to me, because she was taking, well, some creative licenses. That goes and flies directly in the face of what we've heard from victims, what we've certainly heard in court transcripts and court documents. And her version of events certainly makes a lot of folks look really rosy, including herself. And that's certainly not the information we've received from the people who suffered at the hands of her and, and Jeffrey Epstein.

[TJ]

You know, even Epstein doesn't come out looking that bad, according to her. Yeah, I mean she. And some of that. We'll get to a particular quote and why we're saying that. But even as you say, people come out looking rosy. And I was thinking, who does look bad in this? And I said Epstein kinda.

[Amy]

Well, she tries to actually make the victims look bad, that they're not telling the truth. That all of these women are somehow, I don't know, all together collectively telling a story that didn't happen. And I'm sorry, but most people who are familiar with this case and want more information, the. I'm going to put it in quotes. Imagine me making air quotes. The information that she passed along, frankly, is fiction from everything else that every other person has corroborated.

[TJ]

So here are your headlines from. And again, this was just the first interview. Remember they did two interviews with her down in Tallahassee. Day one and day two. We just went through day One so far. We might do a part two for you if we can take it. But these are the headlines, at least from part one. And according to Ghislaine Maxwell, there is no client list. She did nothing wrong. Trump did nothing wrong. Clinton did nothing wrong. Epstein might have done something wrong. And she thinks Trump is a really, really, really, really, really, really nice guy.

[Amy]

And maybe so nice that he might pardon her after all of this. I mean, she certainly coincidentally was moved to a cushier prison after she gave this interview.

[TJ]

Okay, you sound a little cynical, but she's motivated. But yeah, we're gonna share that quote as well, which is. You might have seen it already, but it is pretty special doozy. The tone sometime robes did seem cordial in reading through it.

[Amy]

Yeah, I was really taken aback by that. This didn't seem like an investigator or even a deputy attorney general who is a prosecutor, so to speak. Yes, he is interviewing a convicted criminal. A convicted criminal who is accused, not just accused of, but convicted of heinous crimes against minors. There was nothing adversarial about this interview. There seemed nothing where there was no hard hitting follow up. It was almost conciliatory, like. Oh, just kind and cordial and certainly polite. And that read strange to me from the very beginning. It was almost as if Todd Blanche was excited to be there in her presence.

[TJ]

And again, he wasn't supposed to necessarily. I'm not sure what we were expecting, but there are very. There are a few things that even in text read as cordial and friendly or a warmth or familiarity at least in the room that maybe just wasn't in our minds. I don't know what you expect.

[Amy]

And look, I know when you're interviewing somebody and you want somebody to tell you the truth or to maybe go deeper than they were willing to before, you want to make them feel comfortable. We interview people all the time. Not from a legal standpoint or any position of authority, but certainly as a journalist, you want the person you're interviewing, even if they're considered to be a bad egg or a bad seed, you still want them to feel comfortable telling you the truth. So I understand there is sometimes a need to create a tone where someone feels safe, so to speak. So he did start off letting her know legally she was super safe.

[TJ]

Yeah, and I was. Look, he, he put that on the record. She signed. I can't remember what they call this type of agreement. It wasn't a limited immunity, I believe is what they called it. Right. So nothing here was going to be held against her. But he put this on the record at the beginning. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement. Meaning that by you meeting with us today, we're really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything.

[Amy]

Uh huh. But again, can we point out, just a few days later, she was moved to a much better prison facility.

[TJ]

Timing looks weird, but hey. He goes on to say, I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that's been assigned to your case to do anything. We're just talking. And so that's the most important, important part of this agreement. Sounds like a weird first date or something.

[Amy]

That was the most important part of the agreement that he wanted people to know to make it look like there was no quid pro quo going on. And yet, I'm sorry, but actions speak.

[TJ]

Louder than words, so I can't. You know, we never. There was never publicly an answer as to why she was moved. Was it because nothing official? Right.

[Amy]

Because how could they?

[TJ]

There was nothing official. They didn't even even try. At least give it a shot at some BS for us. They didn't even try. Well, that's what they think of us now. A lot of people curious about the Trump mentions that were throughout. Not as. Well, I shouldn't say, not that many. But they weren't that substantive necessarily. We didn't learn a whole lot. I'll go with the exchange. I'll do Todd. I'll be Todd Blanche. You be. Sounds weird to say, you be Ghislaine Maxwell. You get what I'm saying?

[Amy]

Horrible Halloween costume.

[TJ]

Todd Blanche asks, which hair will you go with? The short or the long? Short.

[Amy]

It has to be the short.

[TJ]

He asks, what did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?

[Amy]

Ghislaine says, President Trump was always cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find I admire and his extraordinary achievement in becoming president. Now I like him and I've always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him. Exactly.

[TJ]

Not subtle. Okay, I get it.

[Amy]

And maybe she's eye rolling. She can mean eye rolling worthy.

[TJ]

She might mean what she says, she might mean what she says. But it's weird how she kind of slid it in there when it wasn't really a part of the question.

[Amy]

I just. I actually found it nauseating. She was gushing.

[TJ]

We can take it for what she called him.

[Amy]

The consummate gentleman.

[TJ]

Yes.

[Amy]

She not only did she not say a bad Word about him, she praised, went above and beyond talking about him.

[TJ]

Isn't she supposed to do that? If this man is one of your few options for ever getting out of prison in the next two decades, yeah, I might have gone farther.

[Amy]

Okay, babe, this is not political for me at all when I make this next statement. This is just me observing and any, any level headed person looking at this understands what's going on. The problem is if President Trump directed his Deputy Attorney General to sit down and talk to Ghislaine Maxwell in an effort of transparency, then release those transcripts. And in all of that, we've got Ghislaine talking about how President Trump did nothing wrong, he's always been a gentleman, how much she likes him, how much she admires him. Come on, that's tough. That's tough for anyone to believe anything else that then follows because everyone's motivated, President Trump and the administration are motivated to say we didn't do anything wrong. And President Trump did nothing wrong. As it pertains to Jeffrey Epstein. He had nothing to do with any of Epstein's crimes. Ghislaine Maxwell has every incentive to say that and to repeat it and to. Because she is going to get something out of it, potentially. She only has. She has nothing to lose and everything to gain. So how can you trust anyone in that position, period, who also has perjured herself multiple times?

[TJ]

So what's the point of any of this?

[Amy]

Exactly. So that's why so many people are pissed off about it.

[TJ]

But there are motivations. None of them having to do with anything is going to be beneficial to us as.

[Amy]

Or the truth view.

[TJ]

Yeah, nothing is. We didn't learn anything here at all.

[Amy]

No truth was uncovered, no new information was divulged. And most people, I shouldn't say most people, but many people would argue that in fact the opposite has happened. Misinformation has now been disseminated. And that's unfortunate.

[TJ]

But that is where this is a little more gutting when it, when you think about the family, like, how do you refute? Because this is supposed to be the one authority we have left. At least this was Epstein, Ghislaine and victims. So Epstein's gone. We even have Vic, a very much high profile victim, Giuffre, has passed away. So now the only record we're getting, or the latest record or updated record or even new information on the record as she's claiming, comes from the one woman left who has repeatedly lied and who has an incentive to do so at this point. So to their point, Right. Their statement pointed that out. And it's offensive almost that she is the voice of record now.

[Amy]

Well, let's hope that that isn't what ends up lasting. We should point out. Also making news today was that Virginia Roberts Giuffre wrote her story, wrote her memoir before she passed away in very chilling words. She sent an email to her publisher a few weeks before her death. She died by suicide, in case you did not know, but saying in case die, basically, I still want this release because the people need to know. So she will end up having her say. But in the meantime, her family had a lot to say about these transcripts being released. They said that this gave Ghisaine Maxwell, a convicted sex trafficker, a platform to rewrite history. And I'll say exactly what their statement was. The content of these transcripts is in direct contradiction with Felon Ghislaine Maxwell's conviction for child sex trafficking. This travesty of justice entirely invalidates the experiences of the many brave survivors who put their safety, security and lives on the line to ensure her conviction, including our sister. And that's. They were referring to Virginia at that point, but I thought that was so well said and I got chills when I read it because I felt their anger as so many people do. These are women, and they were children at the time who weren't believed for years, who were shouting from the rooftops in some cases and put their words and their experiences into court documents. And then some of them, including Virginia, fled the country in hiding out of fear of retribution for what she said. So this is just disgusting, frankly, for a lot of these victims and their families who have suffered over and over and over again by the lies that have been told.

[TJ]

Well, there was plenty more in there and some things that people were curious about. Donald Trump, did he ever get a massage? Bill Clinton, he ever get a massage? Well, she answered a lot of those questions. She also answered the question everybody's been asking. Why would she have participated in recruiting young girls for Epstein? Well, she says you got it all wrong. She never did that. And who are the other famous people that she named?

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[Amy]

Good Morning, welcome to today.

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[Amy]

Welcome back everyone, to this edition of Amy and tj, where we have gone through at least the first round of interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell by Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General. And so those transcripts were released late Friday and we're talking 400 pages in total for both of the days of interviews. But we got through day one and there was a lot to digest, a lot to dissect. I found really what she didn't say was tough, but, but some of the backstory, I don't know how much of it can be believed about how she met Epstein, what their relationship was like. I found all of that to be fascinating. Talking about when she spent the night with him, when she traveled with him, when they stayed in the same bed. All of those things were just interesting but of zero note or I guess, importance when it comes to the crimes that she was convicted of committing. And certainly the questions people have about other people involved in some of these crimes, who they may be, what she saw, what she knew. And that was frustrating to read.

[TJ]

Wait, what do you mean?

[Amy]

Meaning that she basically exonerated everyone they talked about, albeit a few folks, she said, who got massages. She didn't imply in any way that those massages were anything more than just massages.

[TJ]

Oh, I didn't. There was nothing. According to her, nothing ever happened with anybody, right? Nothing.

[Amy]

Well, she did say that Epstein may have done a few of the things he was charged with him.

[TJ]

Excuse me, but all this whole list of people who are getting all these massages. Oh, no, no. She said. She's actually saying that nobody other than.

[Amy]

Epstein, possibly including Prince Andrews, she says that none of that could have happened. And that flies. You know, she even said the picture that we've all seen of Virginia Roberts at 17 years old next to Prince Andrew with her directly in the background in her home in London, she claims that that picture is, is a fake.

[TJ]

It's fake.

[Amy]

And that none of it ever happened, however, should be noted. While Prince Andrew has denied any of the allegations against him as it pertains to Virginia, he did pay a million dollar plus settlement to her in her civil lawsuit against him. So of course, criminally he was not charged, but certainly it added to his. Is he officially out of the Royal Family? He is. He has been relieved of all royal duties.

[TJ]

I can't keep it. Then they say he's coming back a little bit because he showed up at this and I can't keep up with where he is.

[Amy]

But clearly the royal family and enough folks felt like he there was some culpability there and certainly with the civil lawsuit, we don't know how it was settled, but we know it was settled for a seven figure settlement.

[TJ]

All right, to some of the. Let's get to a few more of the exchanges here. Todd Blanche asking Ghislaine, did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage? She responds, was I supposed to read that? You're supposed to wait.

[Amy]

I haven't gotten to that point yet. Where are you right now?

[TJ]

Ghislaine Maxwell responds, never. I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody in the times that I was with him. He was a gentleman in all respects. Again, going out of her way. Not just that he never got a massage. He was never in a massage setting. No anything appropriate in any way. Never with anybody. She made sure to clear all that.

[Amy]

Up fully, completely and without a doubt exonerated Donald Trump forever. Being a part of anything untoward, she.

[TJ]

Did so with herself as well. In talking about abuse, she was asked, did you observe over the years the folks we're talking about or others, which we can talk about, getting massages from young women?

[Amy]

Ghislaine responds with this I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it some. So this is the benefit of the some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think. I don't know what that means. So just for clarity's sake, I just want to say for the record that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or from me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So there's that. What did, what did she say there? Almost nothing. She will. She went on to say this about Epstein, the man that I met and the man he became. I believe that there was a progression and I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that over a period of time. You know. She goes on to talk about how she Met Epstein in 1991, I think she slept with him a few times. She said they stopped having sex in 1999 and she wanted to make it apparent that by the time he was arrested in 2019, she said their relationship was almost non existent. So she is clearly distancing herself from any of the criminal activities that Epstein did, claiming that they happened after she was around him, that the man she knew couldn't have didn't. She at least didn't see any of that.

[TJ]

Right. She was also, of course, asked about what everybody's so curious about, other famous folks, possibly that were in his world. He was asked directly who were the other famous or politicians who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during that time period. So the early 90s, she says Congressman.

[Amy]

McMillan, Henry Wasofsky, who was the provost of Harvard. Joe Pagano, Jerry Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abrams.

[TJ]

Did you know those off the top of your head?

[Amy]

No.

[TJ]

A couple of big time finance guy or two in there, big time lawyer in there, but I didn't know those names.

[Amy]

Yeah, but she just said, did any of these folks stick to your mind as having received a massage? Because these are just people who she's claiming he did business with. These were legit business dealings, his clients, so to speak, his financial clients. She pointed out that Henry Rasofsky received a massage. That's the provost of Harvard. We've heard Trump refer to him as well. And they asked, why does that stick out in your memory? And Ghislaine says, because I saw him in a bathrobe at 71st street and he had received a massage.

[TJ]

He told me she makes this all sound innocent, like just friends booking massages. And I've read through so much of the transcript about how just into massages Epstein was. She said she would book massages and masseuses for him. And it almost sounds crazy. He always wanted a new masseuse. He wanted to keep trying them out.

[Amy]

Well, we know from the victims who have spoken out, Virginia specifically talking about being a young girl who was a spa assistant giving a massage and being asked to give naked massages. She was naked, he was naked, and they progressed into sexual activity. It was interesting that Ghislaine also pointed out that Epstein, she claims, had a heart condition and so he couldn't have intercourse. She said he didn't like intercourse, but he liked other forms of sexual activity. I don't know how that is. Like, I don't know how that plays into the role or into the scenario in which he allegedly perpetrated these sexual acts against these minors.

[TJ]

But again, you'll see what we mean. Now this re is some kind of a page turning and romance novel. Illicit and explicit, I should say in a lot of ways. But it's some strange details where I'm sure there's plenty here. She's not lying about some of the biggest things maybe we're not getting the truth on. But it was just interesting to hear her explain that, yes, I recruited masseuses because I went to legitimate spas and if I got a massage I liked, I would say, hey, and this person was working at a licensed place, so I'm not checking their certification, I'm not checking their IDs. They work at this nice spa, so I'm sure they would show up and do. She said that's all she did and that was her role and that was the end of it. It's how she explained it in this transcript. I hadn't heard that explanation before.

[Amy]

That's her explanation. But every single one of these young women who describe her role in it say she absolutely convinced them to go get these massages and then would offer them more and more and more money. And she picked women, young girls, I shouldn't say women. Young girls who came from broken homes, who needed money. They found people who were vulnerable and who they could then give large sums of money to send them out on private planes, bring them to exotic islands. So there was this huge temptation and a way of life and financing a life that they couldn't have dreamed of otherwise. So they groomed these young women according to the courts and according to her conviction. So what she's saying is completely the opposite of what the courts and the victims said.

[TJ]

Okay. And the idea of this infamous list, she was asked directly by Todd Lynch. So there's a lot of conversation about whether Mr. Epstein maintained, like a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew, like a. It's called a black book or a client list or a list. Did you know of the existence of such a list? She responds, there is no list. We'll start with that. The genesis of that story I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception, if that is what you're interested in. And at that point, Todd Blanche says it is, then she goes into a story I cannot even begin to describe. It's a long, confusing story with twists and turns and players and plots and someone ultimately she said, made up a list, faked a list to get back at somebody for something and then that became part of legend. And this happened over years. But there was never a real list of any kind that Epstein kept himself. Is the story.

[Amy]

Okay? I mean, and look, there has been no list produced as of this date. So who knows? That could actually be true. It's hard to know what's true and what's untrue when you're talking to somebody who is a convicted perjurer and a convicted felon. I mean, it's just impossible to know.

[TJ]

I don't think any of the conspiracy theorists. I don't think anybody out there demanding answers. You don't to be a conspiracy theorist. Until a list emerges, I don't think they'll ever be satisfied.

[Amy]

No, because there's too many question marks and there are too many people who have told too many untruths and too many people have died. I mean, that's really the heart of it. I did want to point out, too, because I, I. This was this one really. And I can't imagine what this is like for the families and for the victims themselves to hear Ghislaine Maxwell say this, but when she talked about those masseuses, do you remember when she said this to Todd? To Todd Blanche. She said, I saw him, meaning Jeffrey Epstein. With lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observations, I don't think that if you're being raped as now he's like this prolific, I just can't imagine you would return. That is such a slap in the face to these women who have spoken out.

[TJ]

You're essentially saying, well, they kept coming.

[Amy]

Back and they didn't look unhappy.

[TJ]

She claims she doesn't know what was happening in those rooms. Okay. But she said her only evidence of it is whether or not they were coming back. So that's a tough one. I read that. That's. That's the toughest thing I read of hers, is how that came. I don't think if you're being raped, I can't imagine you would return. That's tough.

[Amy]

It happens. I mean, the way these women describe it, young girls describe it, it happened slowly, it happened incrementally. They were groomed, they were given money. This is unfortunately a classic example of grooming. And she, according to her convictions, knew exactly what was going on, knew exactly what she was doing, and knew exactly what was happening behind closed doors.

[TJ]

And the last nugget we'll give you here is this stuff about, of course, Clinton and Epstein, the connection that those two have had. She was asked about that, she said, we should give this. Well, the question, the Q and A here. Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton ever received a massage? She responds, I don't believe. So. He then asked the follow up, saying, and what makes you say you don't believe he did? At which point Ghislaine answered, that's a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times, I believe, and well, obviously they traveled there, was that, you know, the plane. They went on the plane 26 times or whatever, that would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together. And I don't believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have ever received a massage and he didn't because I was there.

[Amy]

Right. But notice how many times she says, I think, I believe, I don't believe, I think that, like, she doesn't even say. Her denial of all of this isn't even resolute, I guess, that last sentence. And he didn't, because I was there. That was probably the, the firmest thing she said. Everything else was couched, I noticed in a lot of what she said in her responses, she kept saying it was 20 years ago. It was X amount of years ago, to the best of my recollection. So she's, she's couching everything she's saying because it is fair to point out that. But Todd Blanche did also say at the beginning of this, while there was no deal that was being made or no promises being given, if she lied, she could still be prosecuted for lying. But that would all have to be proven, wouldn't it?

[TJ]

Yes. And who can prove it? At this point, everybody's unfortunately, frankly passed away or has no incentive to speak. The last thing she asked here, I didn't realize this, but as you all know, Ghislaine Maxwell was at Chelsea Clinton's wedding. Isn't that crazy?

[Amy]

Yeah, there's a picture of it.

[TJ]

Yeah. Yeah. She attended the wedding. She was asked if she had attended any weddings with Epstein. She said she didn't think she'd ever done so and she had to be reminded that she went to Clinton's daughter's wedding, but she had gone with her boyfriend at the time, Ted Wade, who was a friend of President Clinton.

[Amy]

Right.

[TJ]

It's just those circles at those levels and these folks, and it's just they talk about money and politics and all of this. A woman sitting in prison for 20 years now for sex trafficking was attending the wedding of the president's daughter just casually hanging out there.

[Amy]

Well, she made a point to say in this interview that she was the one who was friends with the Clintons, not Epstein. That she's the one who introduced Epstein to Clinton in that sense, like she brought him into that world, not vice versa.

[TJ]

My goodness. We'll try to. You want to try to get through part two?

[Amy]

Yes, I think. Think so. Although, I mean, look, it wasn't a hard read at all. I mean, it was a. It was a fascinating read. But again, as long as you look at it as fiction, I guess it doesn't do the harm that it could. But it doesn't take away the sting that her words must have and certainly have had on the victims and their families. So that's where our heart and our thoughts are, folks.

[TJ]

We always appreciate you hanging with us. We'll see you soon. We've got some reading to do.

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[TJ]

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